Debate and Discussion

"Curing" Homosexuality using Hormones and Genetics.
subcultured at 12:17PM, June 3, 2007
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this one is kinda wierd:
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn2803-gay-flies-turned-on-by-heat.html

if homosexualism is a genetic trait…would they be a mutation then?
Someone
A mere change in temperature is all it takes for the males of a new line of genetically engineered flies to switch from being heterosexual to suddenly courting other males.

The switch occurs within minutes and is fully reversible, meaning scientists have for the first time a system they can manipulate to study how some brain regions may be involved in determining sexual orientation.

A handful of genes have been identified that, when mutated, lead male flies to lose their preference for females and instead go after other males.

It has been previously suggested that some regions of the nervous system are connected to sexual orientation, but there was no way to focus on them. Now Kitamoto has genetically engineered flies so that only a subset of their neurons stopped working.

The mutation is temperature sensitive, meaning neurons carrying the mutation suddenly become inactive above 30°C. At the normal 19°C, males are heterosexual. But ramp up the heat above the critical temperature and in about two minutes their behaviour changes.

When put in a chamber with virgin females, the males become largely disinterested. Add them instead to a vial with other males and they pursue them vigorously. Flip the temperature back to normal and the flies become heterosexual again.

Kitamoto does not yet know why the flies change their preference so quickly, but says the system should become a valuable tool to define further which regions of the brain, and which genes, interact in determining sexual orientation.
J
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:02PM
Undesiredattention at 12:21PM, June 3, 2007
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It was just a thought. I happen to prefer homosexual people because they aren't fully focused on procreation, and for the most part, the ones I know at least are nicer then straight people…

You're right, we aren't rats, but if a desease can wipe out a creature that can reproduce at such a high rate, why couldn't a desease wipe out a race that takes almost a full year to create a child, and at least one more to be ready to create again?

subconscious or not isn't a factor for me. I'm not trying to find the roots, just making suggestions. I like to mix things up and watch reactions.
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:36PM
Cthulhu at 1:43PM, June 3, 2007
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If you can “cure” homosexuality, then they must think that its a diesease. If it's a diesease, then it's just like being sick. So they could call off work, because they are gay. “Nope, can't go to work. Still gay.”
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:56AM
Vagabond at 7:46PM, June 3, 2007
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I'm… not really sure how pertinent that is to human beings though, sub. I mean, I think it's either alligators or sharks where you can determine an offspring's sex by changing the water temperature it's in. And yet, I really doubt that if my mom had hung out in a hot tub for most of her pregnancy, I'd be a girl right now. I guess what I'm trying to say is that there are certainly comparable points that we have with animals, but eventually you have to step back and say, “No, we do this much too differently.” It's certainly interesting, though.

And on the “new disease = we're totally killing ourselves” thing…

Diseases are spread easier nowadays because we all live so clumped up together. Luckily, we also have this amazing thing called medicine which makes sure it won't kill us. (for the most part :))

The understanding of our bodies and diseases is advanced everyday. Certainly, we know more about how the body works compared to what we knew 100 years ago. So it really shouldn't be surprising that we can figure out what kills us better. In other words, the diseases have been there all along; it's just we're finally getting names for them. (In other words, cancer isn't a new thing)

Also, the “homosexuality trigger.” I actually thought the same thing, because I've heard of the rat experiment. I don't know if the results have been disproven though, but think for a second: how exactly would nature “know” that we were supposedly overpopulated? Do you really think that the second a baby/fetus/embryo overhears the current estimated world population, it suddenly decides, “Yep, I'm gonna be totally gay”?

The only possible way that it could react is by saying that after so many births by a single woman, the body decides that it will release hormones for homosexuality in the fetus. (which I wanna say has already been mentioned) But that wouldn't account for firstborn homosexuals, one half of a twin pair being homosexual, or other birthing orders.
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:38PM
subcultured at 8:50PM, June 3, 2007
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it just might prove that homrsexual behavior can be influenced through genetics…on flies anyways. it might be harder on humans since human DNA is more complicated
J
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:02PM
joeychips at 12:39PM, June 4, 2007
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I've known a number of people that have been “cured” by applying the teachings of Jesus to their lives, not just one teaching here and there, but imitating Jesus as much as possible. In fact, the people I am thinking of are happily married with wonderful children.
Joe Chiappetta
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last edited on July 14, 2011 1:10PM
StaceyMontgomery at 2:13PM, June 4, 2007
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As I recall - Jesus did not get married and have wonderful children - so perhaps “imitate” is the not The best word to use there.

As I recall, Jesus in his Ministry mostly stressed the way we treat the poor, the oppressed, and the vulnerable. It seems to me that nowadays, this is often spun to make it seem the Jesus mostly stressed obedience and conformity. I am afraid I missed that part of his teachings.

last edited on July 14, 2011 3:55PM
Aurora Moon at 2:53PM, June 4, 2007
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StaceyMontgomery
As I recall - Jesus did not get married and have wonderful children - so perhaps “imitate” is the not The best word to use there.

As I recall, Jesus in his Ministry mostly stressed the way we treat the poor, the oppressed, and the vulnerable. It seems to me that nowadays, this is often spun to make it seem the Jesus mostly stressed obedience and conformity. I am afraid I missed that part of his teachings.

I would have to agree there.
And I also agree with Ian… just because they've claimed to be “cured” doesn't mean that they are. After all, the attraction to men are STILL THERE!!!
The only difference is that they don't act on it anymore.
there's plenty of gay men out there that doesn't act upon their impluses, whenever it be of cultural, religious upbringing or something else. They're still gay.

I've known a number of people that have been “cured” by applying the teachings of Jesus to their lives, not just one teaching here and there, but imitating Jesus as much as possible. In fact, the people I am thinking of are happily married with wonderful children.

there's been TONS of gay men who tried too hard to be straight by having wives and children. Guess what? After a number of years, they finally realized it was pointless as seeing they could NEVER be attracted to their wives at all the same way they were attracted to men. That was the very end of marriage.

the men you pointed out is just deluding themselves in the same way.

I knew a lesbian who's the same way…. I knew her for many, many years. before she got “cured by Jesus” she was an sweet, outgoing person who did many great things for the community….doing blood drives, donating to Karina relief, etc.
But when she got “cured” and got married to some guy… she changed greatly.
She was no longer sweet, became judgmental of nearly everyone and acted pretty much generally like an asshole. She got fat too, because she was overeating as a way to bottle up her real feelings. And you know what she complained often to me and her other friends about? That the sex with her hubby was lousy, that she couldn't even get aroused with him. Well, duh… she's an frickin' lesbian!! she can't even get aroused for ANY men, period!

And you know why she went ahead with that so-called “cure” that was making her so frickin' unhappy? It was because of her religious-crazy family pressuring her to do it… They called her such awful names, said that she was an demon for sinning in such a manner, etc….

it's not just something you do in terms of an choice in your preferences. it's just a part of who you are…. it's part of NATURE!!! something God created, so therefore it can't be against god.

“Cures” like that… What a joke!!

Also… I would just like to say this:
I think the method of “curing” where they have the gays marry the opposite gender is completely evil and vile!!! They're basically toying around with the sopuses' feelings, you know. They didn't marry the opposite gender because of love, it was because they were trying too hard to be “cured”. It's basically such things that is denstined to be doomed in the end… snice the gay people can't be attracted to thier spouses. Sure they can get it up, can have children but it's not the same thing. They can't be aroused mentally and feel pyshically attracted to that person… they can't be in love with that person that they married as an form of “cure”.
So how will their husbands and wives feel when they find out one day? How will they feel when their gay spouses turns to them one day and says: “Sorry, but I don't think this is working….you didn't cure me at all!!”

And how will their wonderful children handle that fact too when they find out? They just basically found out that their parents' marriage is an big scam, that one of their parents don't even love the other parent at all. And what happens if the gay parent leaves the marriage…?
plenty of kids out there are already having diffculties with their straight parents going though an divorce, etc.. but at least those kids can say that their parents loved each other at one point, and didn't use the family as an attempt to “cure” something that one of the parent thought was wrong with her/him.

Jeez, that's just as bad as kids finding out that his/her gold-digger mom only wanted to get pregnant with them on purpose so that the mom could use them to get a lot of money… and that they're basically nothing more than just moneybags to her.


***** Mod Edit: Sorry, Aurora Moon. I know you feel strongly about this, but the large text is rather jarring. - Hawk
I'm on hitatus while I redo one of my webcomics. Be sure to check it out when I'n done! :)
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:10AM
Vagabond at 4:35PM, June 4, 2007
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Well, you can operate on the pop psychology theory that we're all inherently bisexual, with sexual orientation only being defined how much more we like one sex over the other. I don't necessarily agree with it, but it's one way you can see some of these “pray away the gay” methods working.

I'd like to say that homosexuality is more influenced by hormones in the uterus rather than genetics, if only for the abbreviated case of not all identical twins are the same orientation. Ah well.
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:38PM
7384395948urhfdjfrueruieieueue at 8:41PM, June 4, 2007
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Okay, to clear up my previous posts this orientation changing is only for, goats was it, and not humans. However, they could probably make one but I doubt any scientist cares enough to do it.
i will also like to know you the more
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:03AM
ZeroVX at 4:35AM, June 5, 2007
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Aurora Moon
Also… I would just like to say this:
I think the method of “curing” where they have the gays marry the opposite gender is completely evil and vile!!! They're basically toying around with the sopuses' feelings, you know. They didn't marry the opposite gender because of love, it was because they were trying too hard to be “cured”. It's basically such things that is denstined to be doomed in the end… snice the gay people can't be attracted to thier spouses. Sure they can get it up, can have children but it's not the same thing. They can't be aroused mentally and feel pyshically attracted to that person… they can't be in love with that person that they married as an form of “cure”.
So how will their husbands and wives feel when they find out one day? How will they feel when their gay spouses turns to them one day and says: “Sorry, but I don't think this is working….you didn't cure me at all!!”

And how will their wonderful children handle that fact too when they find out? They just basically found out that their parents' marriage is an big scam, that one of their parents don't even love the other parent at all. And what happens if the gay parent leaves the marriage…?
plenty of kids out there are already having diffculties with their straight parents going though an divorce, etc.. but at least those kids can say that their parents loved each other at one point, and didn't use the family as an attempt to “cure” something that one of the parent thought was wrong with her/him.

Jeez, that's just as bad as kids finding out that his/her gold-digger mom only wanted to get pregnant with them on purpose so that the mom could use them to get a lot of money… and that they're basically nothing more than just moneybags to her.


You people hear that?

For God's sake, let gay people be gay, and let straight people be straight! Quit trying to change things! As you can clearly see, it doesn't make people's lives better, it only makes them worse!

*sigh* Why must the general public be such idiots?
“If our own government was responsible for the deaths of almost 100,000 people…..would you really wanna know?”

V for Vendetta, V.
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:57PM
7384395948urhfdjfrueruieieueue at 7:58AM, June 5, 2007
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Actually, I don't think there's a person on here who's anti-gay.
i will also like to know you the more
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:03AM
Hawk at 1:28PM, June 5, 2007
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I didn't mean to be inflammatory about my co worker who went Straight through Jesus. The range and depth of humanity is amazing and everything works for some one. As far as I know, he's not left his wife, or gone on a shooting spree. Maybe he and his wife are perfectly monogamous or do threesomes or he's allowed flings on road trips. Don't know, don't care. If it works for him, I'm glad for him. He appears happy.

I think people get caught up so much with making sure gay people are allowed to be gay that they forget that it's also important to give them a choice. Only your friend knows for sure whether or not he's happier now, but I'll bet it's a safe guess that he's at least less persecuted now. Of course humanity should be more allowant of other orientations, but we need to realize that being “cured” is actually a choice some homosexuals make, for their own reasons.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:46PM
Aurora Moon at 1:49PM, June 5, 2007
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ian_feverdream
I didn't mean to be inflammatory about my co worker who went Straight through Jesus. The range and depth of humanity is amazing and everything works for some one. As far as I know, he's not left his wife, or gone on a shooting spree. Maybe he and his wife are perfectly monogamous or do threesomes or he's allowed flings on road trips. Don't know, don't care. If it works for him, I'm glad for him. He appears happy.

I think people get caught up so much with making sure gay people are allowed to be gay that they forget that it's also important to give them a choice. Only your friend knows for sure whether or not he's happier now, but I'll bet it's a safe guess that he's at least less persecuted now. Of course humanity should be more allowant of other orientations, but we need to realize that being “cured” is actually a choice some homosexuals make, for their own reasons.

Yeah, a very good point there.
I would be fine with this too as well as long as the person they were marrying were informed of this fact too… the only reaosn why I'm opposed to Gays marrying as an attempt to cure themsleves is because it basically causes them to lie to not only themselves, but the wives/husbands that they're marrying to as well. In most cases, the wife/husband of the gay one didn't even know that they were gay before… and then they end up hurt in the end if they got the short end of the relationship.
So if they were open about this fact that they were “curing” themselves in this manner and let the people they marry know this.. then I'm fine with it. This way, nobody is lied to. Being lied to can hurt, after all.

I just simply believe that every relationship should be truthful, full of love.
I believe that relationships shouldn't be formed out of the wrong reasons: marrying just because you think it's the “right” thing to do if you happened to get somebody pregant but don't love the person. Marrying for money, marrying for the legal right to become an american, etc…… the list of wrong reasons are endless here. and unfountely, it happens.
I'm on hitatus while I redo one of my webcomics. Be sure to check it out when I'n done! :)
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:10AM
Undesiredattention at 7:12PM, June 6, 2007
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I kind of forgot about this earlier but all the recent talk of “gay is genetic” reminded me.
I was at a convention the other day (not anime related in the least) and the mother of a transexual, I think little girl now… Cute thing, really darling an shy, makes you want to give her a teddy bear or something.. Anyway, she was talking about a study done on the brain (of people who donated their bodies to science) that showed there was a specific “gender spectrum” in the brain that decides what a person becomes. Should a person lean more to the feminine side, say a man, he's probably going to be gay, if it's all the way on the feminine side, he might turn out transexual (or start transexual). If it's a girl leaning towards the masculine side then she might also be gay, or transexual. There's a whole spectrum that described every possible feeling of a person. That pretty much solves that yes, gay is a freedom of choice, but it's more likily influenced by that nice spectrum in your head that gives people certain feelings or preferences…

Edit: Any “christian” or god fearing soul who thinks being gay is wrong should listen VERY closely to the lyrics of “The Balled of Peter Pumpkinhead” by XTC.
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:36PM
ozoneocean at 8:18PM, June 6, 2007
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Head spectrum? Dowhatnow?
From everything seriously scientifically genetic I've read and heard about homosexuality “feminine” men (genetically speaking) will be straight. :)

Homosexuality in men seems more a result of being “over” masculine. That's right, your average homosexual man is more “real” man than any straight guy. But that's not always reflected behaviourally: the stereotype (and it's a stereotype that many self-conform to), is of gentle feminine behaviour in men, and rough masculine behaviour in women, but that's not really reflected in what they “are”. It's probably more of a self-perpetuating, self-conforming culturally-influenced behavior rather than something genetic, simply because if you were going by the genes alone the men would mostly tend to be VERY masculine and the women QUITE feminine instead of the other way around. lol!

Gender stereotypes and culturally influenced modes of behavior are extremely strong forces! People attracted to their own sex are either made to hide it and try and conform to the prescribed modes of behavior for their gender, or, if they are able to express themselves freely they'll often take on the role of the opposite gender in order to logically reconcile themselves to this “unusual” mode of behaviour which is perpendicular to the greater cultural norm! (without realising that they are)

Not everyone is caught up in that trap of course. You have to pity some of those who are though… Walking stereotypes are sort of sad in a way.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:27PM
Aurora Moon at 12:03AM, June 7, 2007
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ozoneocean
Head spectrum? Dowhatnow?
From everything seriously scientifically genetic I've read and heard about homosexuality “feminine” men (genetically speaking) will be straight. :)

Homosexuality in men seems more a result of being “over” masculine. That's right, your average homosexual man is more “real” man than any straight guy. But that's not always reflected behaviourally: the stereotype (and it's a stereotype that many self-conform to), is of gentle feminine behaviour in men, and rough masculine behaviour in women, but that's not really reflected in what they “are”. It's probably more of a self-perpetuating, self-conforming culturally-influenced behavior rather than something genetic, simply because if you were going by the genes alone the men would mostly tend to be VERY masculine and the women QUITE feminine instead of the other way around. lol!

Gender stereotypes and culturally influenced modes of behavior are extremely strong forces! People attracted to their own sex are either made to hide it and try and conform to the prescribed modes of behavior for their gender, or, if they are able to express themselves freely they'll often take on the role of the opposite gender in order to logically reconcile themselves to this “unusual” mode of behaviour which is perpendicular to the greater cultural norm! (without realising that they are)

Not everyone is caught up in that trap of course. You have to pity some of those who are though… Walking stereotypes are sort of sad in a way.

yeah, it's something I've noticed myself too.

a lot of lesbains that I knew, they were usually SO super-feminine that they didn't really like anything mascline at all. of course, there was a few butch women in that bunch but it semed to me that they were just comforming to that sterotype of lebains being butch.

And the funny thing is, a lot of people who comfirms to sterotypes aren't really what they claim to be, they just cofirmed to the sterotype because of having an preuction complex and they wanted the attention in that way.

it was also an excuse for them to act in a certain way that wouldn't had been otherwise acceptable.
I'm on hitatus while I redo one of my webcomics. Be sure to check it out when I'n done! :)
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:10AM
Coyotejeff at 7:36PM, June 10, 2007
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Vindibudd
Well the first problem is that they are operating under the premise that homosexuality is genetic. Let's get that part clarified before we start trying to breed out homosexuals through genetics. If homosexuality is genetic, and it is such a hard thing for people to be homosexual, then why is there an outcry about it? Oh wait, it isn't genetic, it's preferential. Oh well.

The very fact that there are such things as “gay” rams proves it's genetic. There is no “Ram Society” and therefore no social drives to homosexuality. Just genetic ones. Nature has very good reasons to make sure not EVERY viable breading couple of a species has offspring. the drive toward homosexuality is just one of her population control mechanisms
Welcome to Roadkill Valley
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:47AM
ozoneocean at 7:48PM, June 10, 2007
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You see, that idea is problematic… “gay” implies slightly different things to “homosexual” (one is a cultural and behavioural distinction, the other only describes sexual preference), and the behaviour of one species of animal doesn't always relate to that of another. So nothing is “proved” here at all by any stretch, only hinted at. Most studies like this are all about interpretation.

All we can say is that there appear to be instances of homosexual behaviour in animals other than human beings, we're not exactly sure why (although we have some ideas), and the same causes aren't apparent in all occurrences.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:27PM
Roseweave at 12:48PM, July 1, 2007
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Vindibudd
Well the first problem is that they are operating under the premise that homosexuality is genetic. Let's get that part clarified before we start trying to breed out homosexuals through genetics. If homosexuality is genetic, and it is such a hard thing for people to be homosexual, then why is there an outcry about it? Oh wait, it isn't genetic, it's preferential. Oh well.

Why exactly should we listen to someone who's blatantly rather bigoted over the current psychological and scientific(apart from these guys) consensus?

Homosexuality is not a choice or a “Preference” like you say. You present a false dichotomy between Genetic and Choice - there is more to it than that. Certain behaviours can be programmed in that are not unprogrammable, though in the case of homosexuality and transgender it's more than likely to do with conditions in the womb, which greatly influence development of the fetus - hormone levels especially. Mistimed hormones can result in “abnormal” changes.

But overall homosexuality SHOULD be anymore, for diversity's sake(and population control).

Funny how you say your statement as fact - as if you know what you're talking about, when it's blatant that when it comes to genetics and nature vs. nurture, you don't have a fucking clue.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:12PM
Hawk at 5:31PM, July 1, 2007
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He didn't necessarily say his opinion was fact and I'm having a hard time finding bigotry in his comment.

Technically, it's true though… there are no solid links to homosexuality and genetics. If somebody has heard of any evidence that show homosexuality can be hereditary, please enlighten us. But until then, they're still working on proving the genetics link as some kind of “mutation” or irregularity. Thats not to say there is no link, just that one has not be solidified.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:46PM
ipokino at 11:28AM, July 3, 2007
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I was brought up outrageously christian–hardcore… Became Wiccan on my own. I was brought up to believe homosexuality was one step down from murder–and worse than that, was disgusting. I am neither gay nor straight–though I am currently happily married to a woman, I have enjoyed sexual relations with both sexes–and have loved both. So, interestingly enough, has my wife. In my book Robot Wars, this very topic is being explored as we speak. How can I be cured? I just like sex–in all it's variations, and I think labels suck. That's my opinion, and I'm sticking with it. Let the hormone pushers take a hike!
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:02PM

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