Debate and Discussion

"to catch a predator"-- justifiable?
subcultured at 4:08PM, Oct. 24, 2007
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ummm yes i do know myself that well.

IMO a person that hates reality show shouldn't try to judge those that do.
i don't like most reality shows, but i do like some. but you seem to hate them all.
it's like a food critic hating food.
J
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:03PM
ozoneocean at 4:30PM, Oct. 24, 2007
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How do you know I hate reality TV? That's two shows mentioned, and how is that even relevant to the thread? I'm wondering.

The thing is, we're talking about this predator show. My contention is that you have to wonder about the audience as much as the “cast”, so to speak. And that's not MY contention alone, this is the current thinking on these sorts of shows in intellectual circles (the focus on criminal activity).
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:28PM
mlai at 4:54PM, Oct. 24, 2007
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According to this show, in the Middle Ages everybody was a pedophile.

FIGHT current chapter: Filling In The Gaps
FIGHT_2 current chapter: Light Years of Gold
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:05PM
TheMidge28 at 5:28PM, Oct. 24, 2007
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What I find fascinating is the clips I've seen where the “captured” perv says, “Hey, your Chris Hanson from To Catch A Predator….What are you doing here?” To Ozone's point it appears that part of the audience are cast members.
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bobhhh at 6:51PM, Oct. 24, 2007
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mlai
- Paedophiles don't deserve punishment. They deserve GUNISHMENT!

- “Last night a ‘paedophile’ was attacked and burned in his car. But tell me… If your last name was File, would you name your son Peter?” “Oh heavens no.” *laugh*

I hope youre kidding.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 11:29AM
bobhhh at 6:55PM, Oct. 24, 2007
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ozoneocean
subcultured
i watch shows like “cops” becuase i wanted to be a cop…the show doesn't make me want to be a criminal.
It's as I say Sub: It depends on the focus; something like Cops is more 50/50. Also; do you really know yourself that well anyway? Than again, Cops is another really shitty TV show anyway… Sorry man, but there it is. (Again, that's just my opinion)

You gotta remember with cops also you see what the cops think was ok to see, which is ok we don't need cops to look bad on TV any more than we need to tar and feather perps. A little dignity please.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 11:29AM
ozoneocean at 7:00PM, Oct. 24, 2007
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bobhhh
mlai
- Paedophiles don't deserve punishment. They deserve GUNISHMENT!

- “Last night a ‘paedophile’ was attacked and burned in his car. But tell me… If your last name was File, would you name your son Peter?” “Oh heavens no.” *laugh*
I hope youre kidding.
He's quoting from a satirical British comedy show that I linked to on YouTube. They did a feature on the pop-culture Paedophile hysteria craze.
The clips: Part 1, Part 2, Part 3.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:28PM
bobhhh at 7:55PM, Oct. 24, 2007
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I thought there was something like that going on.

:)
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last edited on July 14, 2011 11:29AM
TnTComic at 5:46AM, Oct. 25, 2007
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ozoneocean
How do you know I hate reality TV? That's two shows mentioned, and how is that even relevant to the thread? I'm wondering.

The thing is, we're talking about this predator show. My contention is that you have to wonder about the audience as much as the “cast”, so to speak. And that's not MY contention alone, this is the current thinking on these sorts of shows in intellectual circles (the focus on criminal activity).

Really? How about something to back that up? I'd be very interested to see a report or a study that says people who watch criminals get theirs are wannabe criminals.

I can't believe i'm the only one that is baffled by this horse shit.

I guess all the viewers of Law & Order are empathizing with the defendants. I guess all the viewers of Perry Mason, Adam-12, NYPD Blue, Cops, CSI, et cetera… I guess everybody who watches those shows are rooting for the bad guys.

That's your theory?

People couldn't possibly be entertained by the bad guy getting his comeuppance, could they?

THAT'S THE BASIS BEHIND EVERY MOVIE/SHOW THAT HAS A BAD GUY


mlai
Hey, TNTComic. Are you saying you *love* this show? You can't miss an episode?

Nope. I've seen maybe 10 minutes of it. I thought it was funny, but it isn't something I need to see over and over again.

mlai
Not that I have the same logic as Ozone. I just think it's banal trash, and I don't think you want to be seen as someone who is trying to vigourously defend this show because “you think” it's a good show.

I don't see why its “banal trash”, maybe repetitive trash. COPS has the same premise: watch bad guys get theirs.

I'm defending the show because I think they're doing a good deed. Maybe now some creep won't try to hook up with some underage girl for fear of being ambushed by a film crew and some cops.

But I guess, by Ozone's logic, my desire to punish pedophiles means i'm one myself. I figure that in Ozone's world, the only way one can prove they're not something bad is by not wishing for bad people to be punished. Honestly, I can't figure out what the fuck the guy is trying to say anymore. He thinks the show is stupid… fine, who cares. But apparently he is so infuriated by it that he feels the need to insult it at length, and then insult its fans. Which tells me that he has a bigger chance of being a pedophile, since he hates a show in which pedophiles are caught, than the fans of such a show. That's just simple logic, as opposed to what he's slinging around.
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:31PM
ozoneocean at 7:23AM, Oct. 25, 2007
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Ah well TNT, it'd help if you didn't take this sort of thing so personally, it's only a discussion about a trashy pervy TV show afterall. ;)

To take some of the heat out though, I'll leave it at that and try not to inflame things with your any more. No harm done :)
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:28PM
TnTComic at 7:27AM, Oct. 25, 2007
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ozoneocean
Ah well TNT, it'd help if you didn't take this sort of thing so personally, it's only a discussion about a trashy pervy TV show afterall. ;)

To take some of the heat out though, I'll leave it at that and try not to inflame things with your any more. No harm dome :)

I'm not taking it personally at all. I simply want to know why you're attacking people who watch the show. Don't try to weasel out of this, Ozone.

“Trashy pervy TV Show”… why is it that you think this? Please feel free to address one of the many points I made in the previous post instead of running away.

Why are you calling people perverts for wanting to watch the bad guy get his? Why are you so upset that a show is taking the classic model of a program where the bad guy is caught and applying it to internet creeps?

Why are you calling those fans pedos, when the logical conclusion is that people opposed to the show would be the pedos?

Feel free to answer any one of these questions before you run off, Ozone.


By the way, I would be attacking you with the same zeal if you were saying racist things, or homophobic things… and i'm not a member of a minority or a homosexual. Its entirely possible to defend a group without belonging to it, Ozone.
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:31PM
subcultured at 7:55AM, Oct. 25, 2007
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people watch shows for different reasons, so it's hard to quantify all those reasons with a blanket statement.

some people watch mix martial arts for the hits, blood, violence, ring girls :), or for me i like to watch because of the strategy of the sport.

TNT: it's best not to let that discussion with oz go any further than it already has…it might end up into a flame war and derail the topic.
J
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:03PM
bobhhh at 10:16AM, Oct. 25, 2007
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TnTComic
I guess all the viewers of Law & Order are empathizing with the defendants. I guess all the viewers of Perry Mason, Adam-12, NYPD Blue, Cops, CSI, et cetera… I guess everybody who watches those shows are rooting for the bad guys.

That's your theory?

People couldn't possibly be entertained by the bad guy getting his comeuppance, could they?

THAT'S THE BASIS BEHIND EVERY MOVIE/SHOW THAT HAS A BAD GUY

I have a problem with casting real people as TV villains, because TV villians are purposely crafted to be black hats, evil. In real life there is no black and white, there is plenty of grey tho'. And I find little enjoyment or entertainment in the public humiliation and punishment that qualifies as the perps “commuppance”.

You know I enjoyed Death Wish, but the movie, like others, is a construct. You spend an entire flick pissing off Charles Bronson with caricature evil types and then set him loose in the last half hour on a killing spree. It's fiction, and thus its ok to excercize your base instincts in a universe with cartoon rules. Sane people realize that reality can not be handled this way if we are to be a civil society.

This is why TCAP offends me so much, it casts sick people as cartoon villians deserving of vigilante justice. This is the oldest trick in the book, spend a lot of energy dehumanizing your target and then you can behave any way you want because he is no longer deserving of humanity.

Sure its entertaining to some folks who need to feel that the bad guys should get at least some of the shit they regularly have to eat on a day to day basis, but it shouldn't have to come at the expense of a sick individual who desperately needs help more than ridicule and humiliation.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 11:29AM
bobhhh at 10:37AM, Oct. 25, 2007
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After thought:

Anyone else find any irony in the fact that these people call themselves “Perverted Justice”??
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last edited on July 14, 2011 11:29AM
TnTComic at 10:39AM, Oct. 25, 2007
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bobhhh
This is why TCAP offends me so much, it casts sick people as cartoon villians deserving of vigilante justice. This is the oldest trick in the book, spend a lot of energy dehumanizing your target and then you can behave any way you want because he is no longer deserving of humanity.

Sure its entertaining to some folks who need to feel that the bad guys should get at least some of the shit they regularly have to eat on a day to day basis, but it shouldn't have to come at the expense of a sick individual who desperately needs help more than ridicule and humiliation.

Woah woah woah… aren't you forgetting that these people are crafting plans to have sex with minors? That doesn't bother you?

I can see pitying a sick individual who has a drug problem… but a person who spends time carefully plotting to have sex with an underage kid?
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:31PM
StaceyMontgomery at 11:51AM, Oct. 25, 2007
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I do have sympathy for the people who get caught in these stings.

I have sympathy for everyone, actually. Don't you?

They are flesh and blood, just like me.

It always seems very important to people to have someone in our lives who is “beyond all sympathy.” It might be witches or gays, commies or nazis, blacks or jews or pedophiles and - well, these guys on TCAP who stand in for actual pedophiles (Actual pedophiles are much more dangerous than these guys).

I guess that righteous fury always makes me nervous. I've had too much of it aimed at me, I suppose.

True Pedophiles should be locked up forever. They are not safe to have around children, and protecting children should always be a top priority. I dont see why we need to be all fury and spit to see that - or to get it done. In fact, we might get more done if we stopped yelling and rolled up our sleeves.

As for the guys that TCAP catches, they seem rather less dangerous to me. TCAP doesn't go after real pedophiles because that would be hard work and take a long time - that is, it would not make a good, low cost reality TV show for MSNBC. And it would not be fun to watch - it would be horrific to watch. But these TCAP losers are not nice people, and I'm not sorry to see them facing the music.

But I can still have sympathy for them. it must be terrible to be so reduced as a person that trolling for teenagers on the internet seems like a good idea. I cannot imagine what that must be like.

I guess one of the reasons I feel so strongly about this is that I see so much anger aimed at the pedophiles (and the TCAP pedophile stand-ins) and so little help offered to their victims. I'm sorry, when people talk about how to punish pedophiles, everyone gets so damned excited. When I talk about real people that I know whose lives have been ruined by this kind of abuse - well, all the passion and energy vanishes. The victims, as usual, are forgotten.

If we took some of the energy we put into “hating pedophiles” and used to help their their victims, we could do some good. Perhaps Anger is just more fun than being constructive.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:55PM
bobhhh at 12:36PM, Oct. 25, 2007
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bobhhh
This is why TCAP offends me so much, it casts sick people as cartoon villians deserving of vigilante justice. This is the oldest trick in the book, spend a lot of energy dehumanizing your target and then you can behave any way you want because he is no longer deserving of humanity.

Sure its entertaining to some folks who need to feel that the bad guys should get at least some of the shit they regularly have to eat on a day to day basis, but it shouldn't have to come at the expense of a sick individual who desperately needs help more than ridicule and humiliation.

Woah woah woah… aren't you forgetting that these people are crafting plans to have sex with minors? That doesn't bother you?

I can see pitying a sick individual who has a drug problem… but a person who spends time carefully plotting to have sex with an underage kid?

Of course it bothers me, I just think that we should help these very sick people, not villfy them on a TV show to sell cheesburgers and Hondas. I'm not condoning their behaviour, although I would say the “crafty” ones are the PJ folks who bait and solicit them in chat rooms. You seem to imply that they aren't suffering from bad judgement, when some of them even having seen TCAP still can't help themselves. These people aren't careful plotters, they're sick people who can't controll their actions.

I actually am for sting operations to identify possible errant behaviour, just not TCAP where a bunch of yahoos beat their breast and brag about their moral high ground and ruin any chance that these sick people may be rehabbed and lead normal lives by outing them on national TV.

If it's wrong to have compassion for the mentally ill, then I'm wrong.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 11:29AM
StaceyMontgomery at 12:51PM, Oct. 25, 2007
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Bobhhh

- Im not with you on that, actually. Real pedophiles are sick people who need help - but they still have a responsibility for their actions.

As far as i can tell, for every pedophile who commits a terrible crime, there are hundreds of people who wake up every day and hope they can put their desires behind them. If you say that pedophiles who commit crimes have no responsibility for their actions, then you are setting aside the daily struggle of many people who are pedophiles but manage to resist their impulses.

We should of course be doing much, much more to deal with pedophiles. At the moment, if you say “I have these desires and I need help” there is actually very little help available. That seems foolish.

As for the guys who get caught on TCAP - they are not pedophiles. Their desires are not so strange - they just want to take advantage of teenagers because that adults have power over teenagers. An adult relationship is a balance of power - but if you can have a relationship with a teenager, then you can be in control.

Pedophiles are sick - by which I mean they have no choice in their desires - but they do have a choice in their actions.

The TCAP guys are just predators. They also have choices over their actions, and so they are responsible for what they do. Maybe some of them are actually mentally incompetent, but the ones I've seen weren't ill - just creepy and stupid.

I mean, clearly, these guys are the lowest hanging fruit of sexual predators, so catching them does not impress me much.

These guys don't seem mentally ill for me. They just seem like losers. I do have compassion for them - but I don't actually mind having them off the streets. I just don't think it's something to crow over.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:55PM
bobhhh at 2:14PM, Oct. 25, 2007
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StaceyMontgomery
These guys don't seem mentally ill for me. They just seem like losers. I do have compassion for them - but I don't actually mind having them off the streets. I just don't think it's something to crow over.

Calling these guys losers is like calling the mentally challenged tards. Sure these guys are not as sick as the people you say don't get snared by TCAP, but is that a reason to treat them with more scorn? I pity guys who prey on yeens because they have such little self esteem that they feel they need to resort to innocent girls. They are just as deserving of help as totally psychopathic pedophiles.

Just calling them losers is easy, correcting their behaviour is harder. ANd i still feel that TCAP is not helping them. Sting operations yes, but conducted by the police, not vigilantes like PJ and broadcast on TV.

There is a reason why we don't have self appointed vigilantes patrolling the streets. We trust that business to the police who hopefully instill restraint and responsibility into their officers. Self apointed watchdogs have no such training and as such have no business in police work.

My name is Bob and I approved this signature.
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Hawk at 12:18AM, Oct. 26, 2007
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I agree with the fact that there is a part of humanity that loves to see justice doled out. It's actually a very active part of my personality. There have been times when I've browsed places like Gaia and DeviantArt reporting art thieves because they irritate me so much. There comes a certain sense of satisfaction when I see that their account has been banned. I don't think this makes me sick or scum or anything. It also doesn't mean I'm a closet art thief.

It should also be known that NBC isn't always instigating these stings. They're piggybacking on existing stings being done by local police departments.

I also think it's not so clear that the bottom line of the program is entertainment. We don't know that. That's like saying your intended result for making a webcomic is to get rich. For all we know, there could be a motivated individual trying to do right, kind of like John Walsh of America's Most Wanted. We don't know that, but guessing the intent of the show would be jumping to conclusions.

One more justification is that the show seems to be catching repeat offenders… Some of these guys have done these things before. Some of them even go on to try it again after being caught.

The last justification might be that if anything, this should be teaching parents to properly monitor their children's internet usage.

However, don't take what I just said as a flat out endorsement of the show. Dateline NBC's involvement in one of the stings actually ended up getting everyone in the Murphy Texas edition set free, whereas the police on their own would have booked these guys. And there are just as effective ways to convince parents to watch their kids' internet useage. I think like everything in life this program is a gray area where I agree with some things about it and disagree with others. But I don't think it's entrapment, and I agree with the concept of these stings if you don't roll in the side-effects of televising them.
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Aurora Moon at 3:11AM, Oct. 26, 2007
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This show doesn't even WORK when it comes to catching the “bad guys”.

there was actually this one guy who repeatdly got caught on the TV show not twice, but THREE TIMES!! And every time, he was let go.

It pretty much shows us how truly INEFFECTIVE and WORTHLESS the tv show is…. and you guys are saying this TV show will keep the guys off the streets? Please! If they can't even stop that one guy from offending again…. what can they do for others? O_o

….it might raise people's awareness about what their children are doing online, but that's it. it's just as Stacy said… it's just a bunch of people crowing over the fact that they're doing “something” but in fact turn out to be doing NOTHING!!!

I'm on hitatus while I redo one of my webcomics. Be sure to check it out when I'n done! :)
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TnTComic at 5:17AM, Oct. 26, 2007
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Aurora Moon
This show doesn't even WORK when it comes to catching the “bad guys”.

there was actually this one guy who repeatdly got caught on the TV show not twice, but THREE TIMES!! And every time, he was let go.

It pretty much shows us how truly INEFFECTIVE and WORTHLESS the tv show is…. and you guys are saying this TV show will keep the guys off the streets? Please! If they can't even stop that one guy from offending again…. what can they do for others? O_o

….it might raise people's awareness about what their children are doing online, but that's it. it's just as Stacy said… it's just a bunch of people crowing over the fact that they're doing “something” but in fact turn out to be doing NOTHING!!!

Oh… so they haven't caught anybody? I didn't know that. They haven't sent one guy to jail? I guess they really are doing nothing. What a stupid show.
bobhhh
bobhhh
Sure these guys are not as sick as the people you say don't get snared by TCAP, but is that a reason to treat them with more scorn?

Yes. I wonder who out there ever earns your scorn, Bob.


bobhhh
I pity guys who prey on yeens because they have such little self esteem that they feel they need to resort to innocent girls.

I think your pity is misplaced if you pity the criminal more than the victim.



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StaceyMontgomery at 7:12AM, Oct. 26, 2007
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Hawk said:

>

TNTComic made the same claim - but I still do not see any reason to believe it is true. In all the descriptions of the show I can find (such as the wikipedia entry) it is very clear that all of these “stings” are run by NBC and Perverted Justice (a group that takes money from NBC).

I see no evidence that they are piggybacking on existing police operations. Can someone correct me here?
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Hawk at 7:30AM, Oct. 26, 2007
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StaceyMontgomery
In all the descriptions of the show I can find (such as the wikipedia entry) it is very clear that all of these “stings” are run by NBC and Perverted Justice (a group that takes money from NBC).

We're both right. In a Youtube clip about Dateline NBC being sued (for the one guy who killed himself when he got caught) they say that Dateline would find stings being carried out by police, but they would enter an agreement that allowed Dateline to pull all the strings and be in complete control of the sting (minus the stuff that Perverted Justice carried out).
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:46PM
TnTComic at 7:37AM, Oct. 26, 2007
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You know, there's been many shows in the past that conducted their own “exposes”. 20/20 comes to mind. Often they had hidden cameras and concocted scenarios to catch people running scams. Do you guys have the same objections to those as you do to TCAP?
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subcultured at 7:39AM, Oct. 26, 2007
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it probably is effective by warning the parents and showing the signs of a predator and how far they will go.
J
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:03PM
TnTComic at 8:01AM, Oct. 26, 2007
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subcultured
it probably is effective by warning the parents and showing the signs of a predator and how far they will go.

It also prevents the guys they caught from hooking up with the real thing.

Its like the police stings where they pose as hitmen for hire. When they catch a guy, it represents a life saved.
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:31PM
StaceyMontgomery at 8:10AM, Oct. 26, 2007
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TNTComic said:

>

I have nothing against journalists running their own stings and investigations. The argument here is over a matter of fact.

I first made this point because you said:

>

Which i did not believe to be true. From what Hawk has said, it looks like they are going to be using existing police stings From Now On - but It appears that I was right - for the shows we have been discussing, they did NOT just happen to film it.

That means you were wrong, btw.

And it does matter, because When 20/20 or any other media outlet breaks a story, we do not just instantly believe them. We know they're making money on it and we look carefully at their evidence.

I think it's important that we all try to get things right, even on message boards. When I make mistakes on the facts, i expect people to correct me - after all, how am I going to learn new things otherwise?

I am sure you feel just the same way.

last edited on July 14, 2011 3:55PM
TnTComic at 8:24AM, Oct. 26, 2007
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StaceyMontgomery
>

Which i did not believe to be true. From what Hawk has said, it looks like they are going to be using existing police stings From Now On - but It appears that I was right - for the shows we have been discussing, they did NOT just happen to film it.

That means you were wrong, btw.



You're taking the context away from my statement. What I meant when I said that is they want to catch internet predators, that's their raison d'etre… they just happen to film it. The ends is not to make a television show… the ends is to catch predators. They just happen to film it.

So just back off the “you were wrong” bullshit.

The ends of America's Most Wanted is to catch wanted criminals. They just happen to film it.

last edited on July 14, 2011 4:31PM
bobhhh at 8:56AM, Oct. 26, 2007
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TnTComic
Yes. I wonder who out there ever earns your scorn, Bob.


bobhhh
I pity guys who prey on yeens because they have such little self esteem that they feel they need to resort to innocent girls.

I think your pity is misplaced if you pity the criminal more than the victim.


No I don't pity the victim less than the perp (although there weren't any victims on the show were there?), that would be ridiculous, but to you of course having any compassion for a sick person is the same thing.

…and that brings me to something for which I can have scorn.
My name is Bob and I approved this signature.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:29AM

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