Debate and Discussion

"to catch a predator"-- justifiable?
bobhhh at 9:02AM, Oct. 26, 2007
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subcultured
it probably is effective by warning the parents and showing the signs of a predator and how far they will go.

It also prevents the guys they caught from hooking up with the real thing.

Its like the police stings where they pose as hitmen for hire. When they catch a guy, it represents a life saved.

I have seen many TV news docs that highlighted the problem without resorting to staged stings.

And once morem I totally support the police doing this off camera, so they can identify these people and offer them counciling without public humiliation. I should add that repeat offenders should be identified so parents can be warned, but some of those guys on TCAP are just sad people who made a mistake and need help before they actually follow through with a heinous act.
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horseboy at 9:22AM, Oct. 26, 2007
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Well, ultimately it's on TV, if you don't like it, don't watch it and it will go away.

Personally I've never understood why guys like that didn't just move to Arkansas (where the age of consent is 13). Of course, having to live in Arkansas is punishment enough I suppose.

I remember a couple of years ago reading in the Baltimore Sun about the FBI “retiring” their consultant teenage girls that trained their cybercrimes division on how to be a “modern” teenager. They claimed that their arrest rate skyrocketed after the training that they were able to come off better as teenagers.

On a slight segway, at what time does civic duty become vigilantism? If you see someone being mugged and you smack the guy with a rock, have you just done one, the other or both?
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TnTComic at 9:42AM, Oct. 26, 2007
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Yes. I wonder who out there ever earns your scorn, Bob.


bobhhh
I pity guys who prey on yeens because they have such little self esteem that they feel they need to resort to innocent girls.

I think your pity is misplaced if you pity the criminal more than the victim.


No I don't pity the victim less than the perp (although there weren't any victims on the show were there?), that would be ridiculous, but to you of course having any compassion for a sick person is the same thing.

…and that brings me to something for which I can have scorn.

Excuse me, but i've already said in this thread that I prefer treatment over incarceration for these guys. What do you want from me? I'm not going to bend over backward apologizing for these guys like you have. I have a daughter, and I'm going to have to be vigilant for these creeps. I don't think they're harmless, I don't think they're a minor concern, and I don't think a slap on the wrist is a deterrent to other people like them. Back off. I have SOME compassion for them, in that I don't believe they should be sent off to live with hardened criminals who will beat them for what they've done, but that doesn't mean I have to go your route and forgive them entirely. They have done something wrong and they deserve to be treated accordingly.



bobhhh
but some of those guys on TCAP are just sad people who made a mistake and need help before they actually follow through with a heinous act.

And without TCAP they would have followed through. So what's the deal, Bob? TCAP is bad because they prevent a heinous act from occuring? I suppose Spiderman is bad because he should just let the cops catch the bad guys, right?
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bobhhh at 10:48AM, Oct. 26, 2007
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I suppose Spiderman is bad because he should just let the cops catch the bad guys, right?

Spiderman is a comic book.
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bobhhh at 10:50AM, Oct. 26, 2007
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Excuse me, but i've already said in this thread that I prefer treatment over incarceration for these guys. What do you want from me? I'm not going to bend over backward apologizing for these guys like you have. I have a daughter, and I'm going to have to be vigilant for these creeps. I don't think they're harmless, I don't think they're a minor concern, and I don't think a slap on the wrist is a deterrent to other people like them. Back off. I have SOME compassion for them, in that I don't believe they should be sent off to live with hardened criminals who will beat them for what they've done, but that doesn't mean I have to go your route and forgive them entirely. They have done something wrong and they deserve to be treated accordingly.



And without TCAP they would have followed through. So what's the deal, Bob? TCAP is bad because they prevent a heinous act from occuring?

Back off? What is this a bar? You responded to my assretion and I responded in kind. In this thread you have accused me of several things including that I value potential criminals over potential victims, and I never warned you to “back off”.

And for the last time, I believe in these sting operations, I just don't believe in televising them. At the very least these people are innocent until proven guilty, seeing as we still live in America, and trying them on TV is, however seemingly justified, against the spirit of the law. At the worst it might prevent somebody who's treatable getting help because the national exposure and humiliation could ostracize them from their family and freinds and job. You seem to imply, “Hey let's ruin your life first, then we'll give you a cookie and senf you to the nurse.” And the justification is that he may have committed a crime.

And please don't insult the law enforcement proffessional by saying that TCAP is the only way these guys could have been caught. I have a bit more respect for the police than to condone PJ attempting to do their job.

I guess what bugs me the most here is that compulsive behaviour gets second class status as an ailment. I mean don't some of you think that these guys know better and are just being pervs? They don't deserve the sympathy and consideration of a compusive gambler or drug addict?

Well compulsive behaviour is a mental ailment. Sociopaths are people who know that they are wrong but can't help themselves. Psychpaths are people who can;t identify their behaviour as wrong. Drug addicts may commit violent crime to get drugs, it's up to us to stop them, not put them on national TV when they try to cop and have somebody walk up to them and say “what were you thinking? Don't you know this is wrong?”

I hope this clarifies my perspective a bit.
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TnTComic at 11:06AM, Oct. 26, 2007
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I suppose Spiderman is bad because he should just let the cops catch the bad guys, right?

Spiderman is a comic book.

Oh come on, if you're going to dodge the point, you can do a better job than that.


bobhhh
I guess what bugs me the most here is that compulsive behaviour gets second class status as an ailment. I mean don't some of you think that these guys know better and are just being pervs? They don't deserve the sympathy and consideration of a compusive gambler or drug addict?

Well compulsive behaviour is a mental ailment. Sociopaths are people who know that they are wrong but can't help themselves. Psychpaths are people who can;t identify their behaviour as wrong. Drug addicts may commit violent crime to get drugs, it's up to us to stop them, not put them on national TV when they try to cop and have somebody walk up to them and say “what were you thinking? Don't you know this is wrong?”

I hope this clarifies my perspective a bit.

I don't understand… which criminals do you think actually deserve jail time?
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bobhhh at 11:08AM, Oct. 26, 2007
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bobhhh
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I suppose Spiderman is bad because he should just let the cops catch the bad guys, right?

Spiderman is a comic book.

Oh come on, if you're going to dodge the point, you can do a better job than that.

That is my point, I am talking about people and you give me spiderman? Of course spiderman should catch the criminal because the police are not suited to handle the green goblin.
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TnTComic at 11:09AM, Oct. 26, 2007
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bobhhh
Of course spiderman should catch the criminal because the police are not suited to handle the green goblin.

Spiderman catches petty thieves, too. Is that wrong?
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:31PM
ozoneocean at 11:13AM, Oct. 26, 2007
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Oh man… I really wanted to stay out of this but it's just getting too funny now. I want to know more about Spidey justice! :)
 
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TnTComic at 11:15AM, Oct. 26, 2007
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Ha! Gotcha!
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bobhhh at 11:15AM, Oct. 26, 2007
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bobhhh
Of course spiderman should catch the criminal because the police are not suited to handle the green goblin.

Spiderman catches petty thieves, too. Is that wrong?

This is a tangent I really think doesn't apply. I would be happy to step outside and argue this in another thread, but the short answer is no.

That's the police's job. In real life I think an all powerful superhero would be frightening, You can force Spidey to be morally perfect because he's not real, writers control his actions, but how could you guarantee that, in real life, an all powerful being would always do the right thing? (See: the Watchmen)
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bobhhh at 11:17AM, Oct. 26, 2007
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Ha! Gotcha!

Not even…

:)
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mlai at 11:54AM, Oct. 26, 2007
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The Spidey derail is too good to pass up…

In real life, a man like Spidey must be arrested. Why? Because he's a vigilante who doesn't just do it once - he does it day in and day out and mocks the police.

What kind of example is that? Eventually lynch mobs will be all over the streets. “Spidey does it so it's ok! We don't need no stinkin' badges!”

Oh yeah, and what about the guy who he killed because he thought the guy murdered his uncle? Well that's ok because he's Spidey right? The guy fell out of the window by himself right? Like he would've fallen out of a window if some maniac with superpowers wasn't threatening to kill him? He was trapped by police in a warehouse and he would've given up in a few hours.

BTW, noticed how Spidey felt ZERO remorse about that when he found out he killed the wrong guy?

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TnTComic at 12:00PM, Oct. 26, 2007
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Remember the Virginia Tech shooting? That debate was rife with gun proponents using it as a reason for the necessity of an armed citizenry. “If someone in those classrooms had a gun, fewer people would've died”. Its a compelling argument, and it applies to this discussion. The cops can't catch everybody all the time, aren't we compelled to do what we can to help them catch criminals if we have the opportunity?
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bobhhh at 12:10PM, Oct. 26, 2007
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Remember the Virginia Tech shooting? That debate was rife with gun proponents using it as a reason for the necessity of an armed citizenry. “If someone in those classrooms had a gun, fewer people would've died”. Its a compelling argument, and it applies to this discussion. The cops can't catch everybody all the time, aren't we compelled to do what we can to help them catch criminals if we have the opportunity?

How about metal detectors?

Seriously is the answer to virginia tech arming all the students??? Really, this line of reasoning doesn't compliment your other more sane arguments.

And the citizenry should give any info they have to the police, not act on it themselves.
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TnTComic at 12:16PM, Oct. 26, 2007
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Remember the Virginia Tech shooting? That debate was rife with gun proponents using it as a reason for the necessity of an armed citizenry. “If someone in those classrooms had a gun, fewer people would've died”. Its a compelling argument, and it applies to this discussion. The cops can't catch everybody all the time, aren't we compelled to do what we can to help them catch criminals if we have the opportunity?

How about metal detectors?

Seriously is the answer to virginia tech arming all the students??? Really, this line of reasoning doesn't compliment your other more sane arguments.

And the citizenry should give any info they have to the police, not act on it themselves.

Its not my argument, its the argument of the gun proponents. The same people that say more guns equal less crime.

Really? In a situation where a citizen can do something to stop a crime, they should get out of the way and then tell the police later? I don't know about that, Bob.
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bobhhh at 12:19PM, Oct. 26, 2007
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bobhhh
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Remember the Virginia Tech shooting? That debate was rife with gun proponents using it as a reason for the necessity of an armed citizenry. “If someone in those classrooms had a gun, fewer people would've died”. Its a compelling argument, and it applies to this discussion. The cops can't catch everybody all the time, aren't we compelled to do what we can to help them catch criminals if we have the opportunity?

How about metal detectors?

Seriously is the answer to virginia tech arming all the students??? Really, this line of reasoning doesn't compliment your other more sane arguments.

And the citizenry should give any info they have to the police, not act on it themselves.

Its not my argument, its the argument of the gun proponents. The same people that say more guns equal less crime.

Really? In a situation where a citizen can do something to stop a crime, they should get out of the way and then tell the police later? I don't know about that, Bob.

So you are saying that a citizen should engage in police work if there are no cops around, sorry you lost me there.
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TnTComic at 12:22PM, Oct. 26, 2007
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bobhhh
So you are saying that a citizen should engage in police work if there are no cops around, sorry you lost me there.

I lost you?

If I see a woman being raped, I'm going to do something about it.

If I see a man dragging a child from the park to a beat up van, I'm going to do something about it.

If I see a man mugging an old person, I'm going to do something about it.

If I see someone breaking into my neighbor's window, I'm going to do something about it.

Still lost you?
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horseboy at 12:30PM, Oct. 26, 2007
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mlai
BTW, noticed how Spidey felt ZERO remorse about that when he found out he killed the wrong guy?
I chalk that up to the phoned in acting in three more than “character flaw”.

But, given that I live in a place that doesn't have a police force, I really don't see the problem with fulfilling societal obligations.
There is no such word as “alot”. “A lot” is two words.
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Never seek for happiness, it will merely allude the seeker. Never strive for knowledge, it is beyond man's scope. Never think, for in though lies all the ills of mankind. The wise man, like the rat, the crocodile, the fly, merely fulfills his natural function.
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bobhhh at 12:37PM, Oct. 26, 2007
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bobhhh
So you are saying that a citizen should engage in police work if there are no cops around, sorry you lost me there.

I lost you?

If I see a woman being raped, I'm going to do something about it.

If I see a man dragging a child from the park to a beat up van, I'm going to do something about it.

If I see a man mugging an old person, I'm going to do something about it.

If I see someone breaking into my neighbor's window, I'm going to do something about it.

Still lost you?

Getting a bit melodramatic aren't you. I am not saying you should not help someone in need, but to get back to the point, there is no one being immediately harmed on TCAP, the police can do that job, and if you have info you can pass it on to them.

If I saw a pedophile dragging off a kid, you can bet I would intercede, but that is a rather skewed read of the actual topic we are supposedly discussing.

Kudos for trying to portray me as a pontificating coward though. In a civilized debate, insults always belittle the people who hurl them.
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subcultured at 1:41PM, Oct. 26, 2007
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well, they are duplicating the scenario of a predator coming into a child's house while the parents are away…just because nothing happened doesn't mean nothing would.
J
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bobhhh at 2:59PM, Oct. 26, 2007
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subcultured
just because nothing happened doesn't mean nothing would.

No arguments there.
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mlai at 3:42PM, Oct. 26, 2007
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Someone
well, they are duplicating the scenario of a predator coming into a child's house while the parents are away…
That's if you consider the fish to be predators when you're out on the lake fishing.

I'm sorry but the only episode I've ever watched featured the “predator” standing outside the open door (opened by the actress) for 10 minutes while the actress baited him with everything short of getting naked.

Then the cops jump him after he decided to walk away.

FIGHT current chapter: Filling In The Gaps
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ozoneocean at 4:01PM, Oct. 26, 2007
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Yeah… Mlai's right there.

And this discussion has moved into fantasy territory. Heh, I suppose that's always the way though: the only way to justify a contrived TV show is by relating it to imaginary situations, comics, and other forms of entertainment.

At least the Spidey thing was funny. :)
 
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subcultured at 5:03PM, Oct. 26, 2007
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i guess all those missing children in newspaper is fantasy too.
J
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ozoneocean at 5:57PM, Oct. 26, 2007
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Sub, they've covered this in the thread already:
1). It's a TV show.
2). There are no kids involved.
3). The actor girls play teens anyway I believe?
So it's not even about paedophilia anyway, just about trying to get sad pervs to incriminate/embarrass themselves for an audience.
Whoop! Justice IS Served! …and I'll have fries with that please. :)

etc… Ah but who cares? defend the stupid show all you like. Just try and separate this TV land stuff from the real world. It reminds me of this time when I was a youngster listening to my parents having a discussion with a woman about this biography movie she'd seen. And she was saying how awful this husband was to the woman in the film, and how wonderfully intelligent and marvellous the woman really was, -talking about the portrayals in the film as if they were the real people! Even back then I was shocked at the naivety and had to point out to her that it was movie, not a documentary! lol!
-i.e. things are slanted to get certain audience reactions and sympathies.

This isn't quite the same thing, but yes it is indeed 80% fantasy. I'd be willing to bet an entire highschool of teens that none of the losers are anything to worry about. I'm more concerned about the audience, whether they're potential pervs themselves, vigilantes out for blood, or just the morons who're the reason this crap keeps getting put on our TV screens along with all the rest of it.

Yeah, anyway. TV: silly. Real world: very different. In this case: never the twain shall meet. ;)

DISCAILMER:
None of the above was meant to be a personal insult towards anyone, living or dead, who has ever posted anything in this thread, so please, please, please, for the love of all that is lovely, don't be personally offended. If you are anyway then I hope that spiderman kills you and feels no remorse about it.
 
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ShadowDion at 6:09PM, Oct. 26, 2007
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i just want to hop in and say one thing regarding this

TnTComic
I lost you?

If I see a woman being raped, I'm going to do something about it.

If I see a man dragging a child from the park to a beat up van, I'm going to do something about it.

If I see a man mugging an old person, I'm going to do something about it.

If I see someone breaking into my neighbor's window, I'm going to do something about it.

Still lost you?


this is not necessaryly true, as is true with the bysander effect and diffusion of responsibility. the greatest example is Kitty Genovese where tons of witness watched her raped and killed and did nothing. granted, if you were alone, perhaps you would do something, but it is human psychology to believe that others will help someone is in danger, if you even realize they are in danger at all.
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ozoneocean at 6:48PM, Oct. 26, 2007
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ShadowDion
this is not necessaryly true, as is true with the bysander effect and diffusion of responsibility. the greatest example is Kitty Genovese where tons of witness watched her raped and killed and did nothing. granted, if you were alone, perhaps you would do something, but it is human psychology to believe that others will help someone is in danger, if you even realize they are in danger at all.
Oh no, don't say that… Now we'll get all our Supermen, Wolverines, and Punishers coming out of the woodwork and telling us the importance of vigilantism and how they'd be there to defend the weak and innocent…

So much for an end to the comic book superhero stuff. :(

Hey, that gives me an idea though… Maybe that's the one redeeming feature of the TV show: It makes some of the viewers feel safer in some way, as if something “good” really is being done? If it can create that illusion for someone, make them less afraid about the big bad world that their TV keeps scaring them about, with all it's terrorists, WMDs, comets from outerspace, killer hurricanes, approaching millennial raptures, armies of evil serial killers etc. then maybe it's doing some good, in a twisted little way, by reducing some of the harm that its already inflicted on their fragile psyches?

That idea is even funnier than the rest. :)

-Disclaimer-
The above was not directed against anyone specific in this thread, there is no intention to insult or offend any of the posters here and the opinions expressed represent only those of the individual who posted them.
 
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horseboy at 8:10PM, Oct. 26, 2007
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ozoneocean
ShadowDion
this is not necessaryly true, as is true with the bysander effect and diffusion of responsibility. the greatest example is Kitty Genovese where tons of witness watched her raped and killed and did nothing. granted, if you were alone, perhaps you would do something, but it is human psychology to believe that others will help someone is in danger, if you even realize they are in danger at all.
Oh no, don't say that… Now we'll get all our Supermen, Wolverines, and Punishers coming out of the woodwork and telling us the importance of vigilantism and how they'd be there to defend the weak and innocent…

So much for an end to the comic book superhero stuff. :(
That's okay, Mack Bolan>Punisher. ;)
But anyway… What you would like to THINK you'd do in a situation is one thing. Until you've been in the situation you really don't know what you'd do.
There is no such word as “alot”. “A lot” is two words.
Voltaire
Never seek for happiness, it will merely allude the seeker. Never strive for knowledge, it is beyond man's scope. Never think, for in though lies all the ills of mankind. The wise man, like the rat, the crocodile, the fly, merely fulfills his natural function.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:50PM
mlai at 8:40PM, Oct. 26, 2007
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@ Ozone:

You shouldn't diss Good Samaritans by comparing them to vigilante antiheroes, even in jest. Someone who is a rescuer rather than a passive bystander would be the person who makes a difference between whether the old man who just suffered a heart attack in the park lives or dies.

Sidewalk vigilantism IMO is the trademark of a heroic person. Someone who sees a break-in or a fire or a bad accident taking place and doesn't wait for others to do something about it.

Now, serial vigilantism, that's another thing altogether.

FIGHT current chapter: Filling In The Gaps
FIGHT_2 current chapter: Light Years of Gold
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:05PM

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