Debate and Discussion

"to catch a predator"-- justifiable?
subcultured at 9:09PM, Oct. 26, 2007
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better to be proactive than reactive.
prevent a kidnapping rather than search for a kidnapped child.
J
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:03PM
ozoneocean at 9:31PM, Oct. 26, 2007
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It's not Sub. Again you're using a hypothetical situation to support a TV entertainment program that's all about made up scenarios itself.
…and Teenagers don't get kidnapped in real life as much as the sensationalist news programs tell you or the TV dramas portray, so it's not even a risk people need to be “pro-actively” protected from anyway… that'd be like killing all the sharks near the coast just on the off chance that it'll save one or two swimmers.
mlai
You shouldn't diss Good Samaritans by comparing them to vigilante antiheroes, even in jest
I'm not, I'm making fun of the idea that someone might say "Oh yes! I would run out and save that person!!!!“. As Horseboy says: we'll see what they do if it ever really happens. ”Good Samaritans" and armchair heroes are in different leagues. And that's about as far as we need to go with that one.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:28PM
Aurora Moon at 10:42PM, Oct. 26, 2007
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subcultured
it probably is effective by warning the parents and showing the signs of a predator and how far they will go.

Warning the parents, or making them paranoid that EVERYONE ON THE INTERNET, even YOU, is an potential sex offender who's looking to sexually assault their precious kids?

Being aware is one thing… paranoia is another thing completely which serves very little purpose and does as much as damage as ignorance does.

That's the thing about this TV show… it pretty much makes every male on the internet look like scum… and it doesn't really educate parents and teenagers out there watching this show on what to do about internet safety.

Educating all parents and their children intersted in interent safety will do more than just going: “Hey, look! This is the kind of pervert who would meet up and sexually assult your precious daughters!!”
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last edited on July 14, 2011 11:10AM
bobhhh at 11:58PM, Oct. 26, 2007
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mlai
Sidewalk vigilantism IMO is the trademark of a heroic person. Someone who sees a break-in or a fire or a bad accident taking place and doesn't wait for others to do something about it.

Now, serial vigilantism, that's another thing altogether.

No arguments there.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 11:29AM
TitanOne at 8:02PM, Oct. 27, 2007
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Kristen Gudsnuk
I know child molesters are bad, obviously. But I was bored and watching some clips from “To Catch a Predator” on youtube, and I was just struck by how.. wrong it seemed. For those of you who haven't heard of it, it's a TV show where they lure sexual predators into houses via the internet and then confront them.
There's something about getting arrested for dirty-talking with some NBC employee posing as a thirteen-year-old girl that seems unfair. I mean, they're not ACTUALLY attempting statutory rape, even though they may think they are. No minors are involved. So since their crimes are imaginary, doesn't that make their punishment null as well?
Also, I highly doubt that any of those people gave permission to display their faces on that show. it all just seems shady to me.

I think this is the kind of topic where my opinion might be in the extreme minority… well anyway I'm curious to hear other people's thoughts!

If I trusted the government at all, I might be more inclined to approve of these sting operations–but I don't. Even if I did, isn't the “crime” a thought crime, not an actual crime taking place?

The Senator Larry Craig incident falls into the same category. Who authorized police to make arrests in public bathrooms for toe-tapping and funny hand gestures? Where does this end? With police using tasers on people who look at them funny?

last edited on July 14, 2011 4:30PM
ShadowDion at 12:00AM, Oct. 28, 2007
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subcultured
better to be proactive than reactive.
prevent a kidnapping rather than search for a kidnapped child.

but how proactive is too much? are we going to become like the movie Minority Report where they arrest people before they make the crime? i agree, many of these people probably are scum, but where is the line between imagining doing something and actually doing it? i'm sure they're have been creeps that have looked at women (or men) and thought of, maybe even wanted to do inappropriate things to them, but the point is they did not. i believe in the stance, ‘innocent until proven guilty’, maybe i am naive but i believe that person should be found guilty of commiting the crime, not necessarily thinking of it or pondering it.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:32PM
subcultured at 1:07AM, Oct. 28, 2007
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so, what do these guys have in mind when they go to the houses? watch tv with a 10 year old, maybe play scrabble?
J
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:03PM
ozoneocean at 3:39AM, Oct. 28, 2007
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Ok Sub, you want to play hypotheticals then. “Would haves”?

Another hypothetical: What would have happened if the perv was never courted, encouraged, lured and teased out extremely carefully, to the point where they can be invited to come to a strange house with an apparently sexually eager teen just waiting for them, with no form of adult supervision around?

Seems to me like something that'd be amazingly unlikely to occur… ;)

I'd go so far as to say that it probably almost never does: That's why it's a thought crime; because you appear to make these sad guys into something they probably never really had the potential to be.

…at every stage, in every part, in all ways of thinking, this is fantasy, and fantasy is designed for the audience…

…The Audience…
Hmm. Another hypothetical for you: If that audience wasn't interested, would there still be a TV show?
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:28PM
bobhhh at 5:26AM, Oct. 28, 2007
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ozoneocean
..at every stage, in every part, in all ways of thinking, this is fantasy, and fantasy is designed for the audience…

I think you hit the nail on the head here. I think part of the problem is that a lot of people's brains shut off when you mention children and they go into a primal survival instinct mentality. It's why lots of otherwise intelligent and compassionate folks suddenly want to start throwing people in jail for even having bad thoughts about kids. Just like abortion and drugs, instead of dealing with the causes and roots of the problem, paranoia and vengance are justified by simply saying, “but what about the children?” or, “if you had children you would feel like I do.”

(Personally I feel it has something to do with the anger displayed by some people against kids who seem to bertay their covenant of innocence by commiting so called “adult crimes”.)

What some people here suggest (and what TCAP is tantamount to) is that you set fire to anyone with a cough in oreder to stop the spread of disease. I would rather display a bit more common sense and analytical action. This is what happens when you let civillians make decisions and take actions better left to professionals. After all you would call a doctor if someone was sick and you should leave the police matters to the professionals. Sure provide them with any assistance and do what you can in an emergency, but leave the detective work to them, and ferrcrissakes don't sell the rights to NBC.

Preventing crime and enforcing the law should be a solemn task, not primetime sensationalism. Cops should be catching crooks not selling Hondas.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 11:29AM
TnTComic at 8:33AM, Oct. 28, 2007
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bobhhh
Kudos for trying to portray me as a pontificating coward though. In a civilized debate, insults always belittle the people who hurl them.

I did no such thing. You said people should never do the job of the police, and I gave examples of why I think you are wrong. Don't take it personally.

ozoneocean
Ah but who cares? defend the stupid show all you like. Just try and separate this TV land stuff from the real world.

I wasn't aware that the guys they catch are actors.


subcultured
so, what do these guys have in mind when they go to the houses? watch tv with a 10 year old, maybe play scrabble?

At this point, Sub, you and I have to wash our hands of this. Ozone and Company do not believe the perps have done anything wrong, and they're not going to change their mind.
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:31PM
nighthawk41 at 9:38AM, Oct. 28, 2007
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Fuzzy Modem
But that's the rub isn't it? We've convicted them in advance for having a mental condition, and then exploiting that same condition, we convince them to do something morally reprehesible. Isn't spurring the psyco on and then calling him on it equally perverse? It's like giving a recovering addict drugs and then busting him. I mean, we're encouraging pedophiles to act on their cross wired impulses for the sake of our own entertainment. And on TV no less. WTF!

Ever seen the movie Hard Candy? Fucking awesome movie. Go rent it. Now.

I get what you're trying to say. I agree that its stupid to exploit and arrest someone because of a mental condition. I think rehab or therapy would be a better choice then arresting.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 2:16PM
Phantom Penguin at 9:52AM, Oct. 28, 2007
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Sense when is wanting to have sex with a minor a mental condition? Because in plenty of other countries people can do that and its not illegal, does that mean they are sick?

Whatever you think about that part the simple fact that what they said on the computer to the decoy (sometimes even sending pictures or videos of themselves masturbating) is a violation of the law in the states they do these stings in. And just to prove they aren't fooling these people into doing this all the transcripts can be read on their website:
http://www.perverted-justice.com/

Now i'm not saying they are doing this for the good of the people, its news and a good story people will watch so of course they are doing it to scare the crap out of parents which is something the news has always been good at. But if they are arresting people that broke the law in the process isn't that a good thing?
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:42PM
ShadowDion at 1:58PM, Oct. 28, 2007
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subcultured
so, what do these guys have in mind when they go to the houses? watch tv with a 10 year old, maybe play scrabble?

At this point, Sub, you and I have to wash our hands of this. Ozone and Company do not believe the perps have done anything wrong, and they're not going to change their mind.


excuse me, but i never said that these people have done nothing wrong, however i do believe that exploiting them is also not right. i don't know about you, but probably every single person has done something illegal in their lives, some maybe not. i am also pretty sure that many, many people have thought of doing something wrong, imagined it, or wanted to, even if it is only speeding or flicking off a police officer. but the very thought alone is not the crime. i have been pulled over by a cop and wanted nothing than to tell him off but i know that wasn't my place. should i be charged with that crime for imagining myself doing it?
i understand these people do not have good intentions and may very well be ill in some manner, however these men are being encouraged. they are being strongly led to want to commit that crime i am sure, because if the people at TCAP don't get predators, they don't have a show. so my guess is they are going to tell these people whatever they want so they will come over. in fact, the predators have become the prey to an equally disgusting tv show that i am sure is not out there simple to benefit society.
you are right, if i had kids, it would be my worst nightmare for them to meet one of these people on the internet and for them to meet. but being proactive does not mean go around baiting men that have fantasies. if you don't want to have you're kids become prey to these people, get off your ass and be a parent. block chat rooms, limit internet time, that is being proactive.
part of the fault to these children being seduced is because they are allowed to have a huge amount of freedom on the internet and believe they can make emotion mature decisions when they are not ready. it is all well and good to want to protect your kids, of course, so protect them by doing something about it.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:32PM
subcultured at 2:47PM, Oct. 28, 2007
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kinda like a cop dressing sexy and walking around in a place known for prostitution… people entice themselves with their own fantasy.
J
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:03PM
ozoneocean at 3:16PM, Oct. 28, 2007
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subcultured
kinda like a cop dressing sexy and walking around in a place known for prostitution… people entice themselves with their own fantasy.
I think we already mentioned that one at least 3 times and explained why it's so very different.

Besides, no one's answered the question about the show only existing in the first place because it has an audience. lol!

And you know my feelings on that "audience“.

But guys, guys, guys, try and understand that TV land and reality are different places: spiderman doesn't really catch criminals, no one has ”mutant" powers, and Chuck Norris would get his face shot off in 5 minutes flat if he ever tried that stuff as a real Texas ranger. I see why you're confused a bit though, there is a sort of fake reality cross-over in this show, but just like “pop-stars” will never produce a decent musical act, nor will this show truly ever cross over into the real world either. lol!

Disclaimer
None of the above was intended to be taken offensively, or directed so as to give personal insult to anyone. I'm just finding the whole thing far too funny now and can't help showing it.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:28PM
Aurora Moon at 8:49PM, Oct. 28, 2007
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subcultured
kinda like a cop dressing sexy and walking around in a place known for prostitution… people entice themselves with their own fantasy.

no, it's more like placing crack in front of an crack addict and then bust him/her just because he/she couldn't resist his addiction due to the fact that you pratically supplied the dude with crack. It's just fucking stupid.

Going to somebody's house for seemingly consental sex is not an crime, espeically in some states where there's ages of consental sex that's low as 14 years old. If they were under the impression that there was a mature teenager who wanted to consent, then they're not really enaging into the rape and lying to an minor for the sake of sex.

real sex preadtors would pretend to be those underaged people's friend first, and espeically groom them over the net for a long time before even enaging into sex. Even going far as to pretend that they're actually the same age as the teens/kids, and then rape them when they get to acess them in person. THAT'S THE CRIME, AND WHAT YOU ACTUALLY HAVE TO WATCH OUT FOR WITH KIDS.

Those guys on TV isn't even the majority of sex preadtors where they go: “Hey there, I'm a creepy adult who likes to have sex with teenagers.” Real preadtors aren't anywhere that honest. They're just guys who are “wanna-be ebophibles”. The real ones are much more dangerous.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 11:10AM
Hawk at 10:15PM, Oct. 28, 2007
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Aurora Moon
no, it's more like placing crack in front of an crack addict and then bust him/her just because he/she couldn't resist his addiction due to the fact that you pratically supplied the dude with crack. It's just fucking stupid.

I don't think it's quite like that. These people went into a monitored teenage-girl-centric chatroom of their own accord, then instigated the plans for sex. So it's more like crack addicts seeking out and breaking into a known crack warehouse where cops just happen to be waiting.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:46PM
ozoneocean at 10:28PM, Oct. 28, 2007
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I think that particular analogy is getting a bit belaboured and still missing the point that this is primarily an entertainment show. I mean, people keep talking about the one guy being caught on the same show at the same house on 3 different occasions: Do you think that if this had anything at all to do with real justice that he'd have been able to DO that?

Yeah… This is as close to reality as calling for audience members to participate in a WWWF match, or the “guests” on the Jerry Springer show. lol!

Oh jeez, I'm sorry, I'm cracking up again… I actually am. This is exactly like someone trying to seriously justify the Jerry Springer! lol! Ha! Using the “incest” and “infidelity” discussed on it as some kind of rationalisation. Oh jebus, that's a real killer. :)

-disclaiming again-
Please no one take this personally… Please.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:28PM
Aurora Moon at 12:33AM, Oct. 29, 2007
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ozoneocean
I think that particular analogy is getting a bit belaboured and still missing the point that this is primarily an entertainment show. I mean, people keep talking about the one guy being caught on the same show at the same house on 3 different occasions: Do you think that if this had anything at all to do with real justice that he'd have been able to DO that?

exactly.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 11:10AM
Phantom Penguin at 2:55AM, Oct. 29, 2007
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Aurora Moon
subcultured
kinda like a cop dressing sexy and walking around in a place known for prostitution… people entice themselves with their own fantasy.

no, it's more like placing crack in front of an crack addict and then bust him/her just because he/she couldn't resist his addiction due to the fact that you pratically supplied the dude with crack. It's just fucking stupid.

Going to somebody's house for seemingly consental sex is not an crime, espeically in some states where there's ages of consental sex that's low as 14 years old. If they were under the impression that there was a mature teenager who wanted to consent, then they're not really enaging into the rape and lying to an minor for the sake of sex.

real sex preadtors would pretend to be those underaged people's friend first, and espeically groom them over the net for a long time before even enaging into sex. Even going far as to pretend that they're actually the same age as the teens/kids, and then rape them when they get to acess them in person. THAT'S THE CRIME, AND WHAT YOU ACTUALLY HAVE TO WATCH OUT FOR WITH KIDS.

Those guys on TV isn't even the majority of sex preadtors where they go: “Hey there, I'm a creepy adult who likes to have sex with teenagers.” Real preadtors aren't anywhere that honest. They're just guys who are “wanna-be ebophibles”. The real ones are much more dangerous.

Theres a small difference between a crack addict and a wannabe pedo. Seeing how one is addicted and the other is, making a choice not to feed a addiction (and if they are they needed to be caught a long time ago) but to feed their own desires. Like I linked above:
http://www.perverted-justice.com
Has all the transscrips from the stings and those people are in fact what I would call predators, or would have been if it was not for the police stopping them, just because they did not pretend to be a child at first does not mean they are not one.

And they would never do a sting in states where the age limit allowed them to have sex with a 15-16 (I dont know of any state with a age of 14) year old for the simple fact that it wouldn't be illegal, i've said before they do those stings in the states they do them in for a reason, the states that its illegal just to talk to a minor over the internet in a sexual manner. Making what they said over the web illegal and arresting them.

Of course the show is for entertainment reasons only, anyone who think the streets are running wild with child predators (much like the show wants you to think) are stupid and really need to look elsewhere for all their info, like the news have always done it makes you fear something thats not a huge threat.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:42PM
bobhhh at 3:05AM, Oct. 29, 2007
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Phantom Penguin
Theres a small difference between a crack addict and a wannabe pedo. Seeing how one is addicted and the other is, making a choice not to feed a addiction (and if they are they needed to be caught a long time ago) but to feed their own desires.
Oh really, tell that to a gambling addict. Or a sex addict. Some behaviour is compulsive. Why else would these people engage in activities that will get them arrest and ruin?

It's like I said, people with compulsive behaviour disorders get treated like they are evil, it just rings of the same kind of attitude that used to get mentally ill people burned as witches and possesed.

Again I say, I'm all for these stings, just not this show. Errant behaviour needs to be ferreted out and corrected and/or punished, not passed off as prime time entertainment.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 11:29AM
Phantom Penguin at 5:22AM, Oct. 29, 2007
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The show is a bit much, it pretty much ruins peoples lives, imagine walking down the street and thats how someone starts talking to you “didn't I see you on Dateline?”.

I'm sure there are some child sex addicts they have caught (I know some of them have said they were, I don't know if they were serious or if they were trying to get people to feel sorry for them). And if they are indeed addicts then they need to be treated as such, not thrown into prison and exploited on TV.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:42PM
TitanOne at 8:49AM, Oct. 29, 2007
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bobhhh
Color me stupid, but I seem to remember a little axiom from youth that went something like: “THE ENDS NEVER JUSTIFY THE MEANS”

Go figure.

Yep. I also remember a phrase that went “The president is not above the Law.”

Times have changed, a lot.
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:30PM
SpANG at 9:30AM, Oct. 29, 2007
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subcultured
better to be proactive than reactive.
Holy “Minority Report” Batman!
“To a rational mind, nothing is inexplicable. Only unexplained.”
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:52PM
subcultured at 9:55AM, Oct. 29, 2007
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i thought you had to sign a release for people to show your face on TV, unless they changed the laws on that. it falls under right of privacy. so it makes me wonder if these guys actually want you to see their faces.
J
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:03PM
ShadowDion at 12:23PM, Oct. 29, 2007
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SpANG
subcultured
better to be proactive than reactive.
Holy “Minority Report” Batman!

i already made that reference!
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:32PM
subcultured at 2:33PM, Oct. 29, 2007
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Someone
Holy “Minority Report” Batman!
yes, it's better to prevent crime with neighborhood watch, drug rehab programs, and education rather than wait until someone murders something and the putting those things in place.

maybe this show helps to place a light in a dark corner of our lil world. maybe parents will begin to monitor who their kid's friends are. besides making an argument about it being largely entertainment… is kinda dumb. if it wasn't entertainment, it wouldn't be on TV. what exec would sign off on a program that isn't entertainment.
J
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:03PM
Aurora Moon at 2:51PM, Oct. 29, 2007
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subcultured
Someone
Holy “Minority Report” Batman!
yes, it's better to prevent crime with neighborhood watch, drug rehab programs, and education rather than wait until someone murders something and the putting those things in place.

maybe this show helps to place a light in a dark corner of our lil world. maybe parents will begin to monitor who their kid's friends are. besides making an argument about it being largely entertainment… is kinda dumb. if it wasn't entertainment, it wouldn't be on TV. what exec would sign off on a program that isn't entertainment.

I've said again and again this sort of thing only makes parents pariond, and they will espeically start to see comptuers with net access as some sort of “Magic Pedophile Machine” where any kids who even logs into the net is instantly being accosted by pedophiles and ebophiles. because afte all, everyone knows that every male who's ever on the net is an pevert no matter how young or old they are, according to the TV Show, RIGHT?? *rolls eyes*

No, the real power of education lies in educating parents who aren't internet-savvy on how to protect thier kids by actually giving them vaild information. Such as what Acyroms stands for what, and how to monitor thier kids' net usage (by looking at history, cookies), etc. They can even be taught on how to use progams which logs every chat transcript and websites that their kids visit.
Trust me, all that does much more than just standing behind your kid's shoulder and breathing down thier necks every 8 seconds to make sure they don't meet with anybody who's “bad”.

I know, I was there. My mom used to breath down my neck like that, and it just caused me to start sneaking around so that I would have a moment of peace to myself on the net. And she wasn't so comptuer-savvy at all… she pretty much saw comptuers as some kind of “Magic Pedophile Machine”. Okay, she didn't call them that exactly but she sure acted like they were.

So to educate her fully, I actually had to get her to go with me to an libary where we talked with other various people about Net safety, and how my mom could litterally just track where I was at on the net, etc without breathing down my neck every 8 seconds.

And guess what? She learned more about where I went and did on the net than she could have before if she was still an comptuer-ingorant parinod parent.

It's just like Driving you know…. if you keep on becoming too overly anxious of an accident and keep on overcompesating for safety… you're more likely to end up into an accident!
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last edited on July 14, 2011 11:10AM
PaulLavallee at 7:17AM, Nov. 13, 2007
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We do live in a messed up world. I think it's good they're being proactive and trying to catch these perverts, but on the other hand I find something really creeepy about the people trying to sensationalize these stories. There's something really wrong about the host. He's like a closet pedo trying to hide his desires by crucifying other.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:41PM
subcultured at 4:29PM, Nov. 13, 2007
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sort of like Hitler being jewish
J
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:03PM

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