Debate and Discussion

A Germans take on Islam.
Genejoke at 4:50AM, Sept. 6, 2010
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I received this in an email. read and discuss.




The email said...
German View of Islam
This is by far the best explanation of the Muslim terrorist situation I have ever read. His references to past history are accurate and clear. Not long, easy to understand, and well worth the read. The author of this email is said to be Dr. Emanuel Tanay, a well-known and well-respected psychiatrist.

A German's View on Islam
A man, whose family was German aristocracy prior to World War II, owned a number of large industries and estates. When asked how many German people were true Nazis, the answer he gave can guide our attitude toward fanaticism. ‘Very few people were true Nazis,’ he said, ‘but many enjoyed the return of German pride, and many more were too busy to care. I was one of those who just thought the Nazis were a bunch of fools. So, the majority just sat back and let it all happen. Then, before we knew it, they owned us, and we had lost control, and the end of the world had come. My family lost everything. I ended up in a concentration camp and the Allies destroyed my factories.’

We are told again and again by ‘experts’ and ‘talking heads’ that Islam is the religion of peace and that the vast majority of Muslims just want to live in peace. Although this unqualified assertion may be true, it is entirely irrelevant. It is meaningless fluff, meant to make us feel better, and meant to somehow diminish the spectre of fanatics rampaging across the globe in the name of Islam.

The fact is that the fanatics rule Islam at this moment in history. It is the fanatics who march. It is the fanatics who wage any one of 50 shooting wars worldwide. It is the fanatics who systematically slaughter Christian or tribal groups throughout Africa and are gradually taking over the entire continent in an Islamic wave. It is the fanatics who bomb, behead, murder, or honour-kill. It is the fanatics who take over mosque after mosque. It is the fanatics who zealously spread the stoning and hanging of rape victims and homosexuals. It is the fanatics who teach their young to kill and to become suicide bombers.

The hard, quantifiable fact is that the peaceful majority, the ‘silent majority,’ is cowed and extraneous.
Communist Russia was comprised of Russians who just wanted to live in peace, yet the Russian Communists were responsible for the murder of about 20 million people. The peaceful majority were irrelevant. China's huge population was peaceful as well, but Chinese Communists managed to kill a staggering 70 million people.
The average Japanese individual prior to World War II was not a warmongering sadist. Yet, Japan murdered and slaughtered its way across South East Asia in an orgy of killing that included the systematic murder of 12 million Chinese civilians; most killed by sword, shovel, and bayonet.

And who can forget Rwanda, which collapsed into butchery. Could it not be said that the majority of Rwandans were ‘peace loving’?

History lessons are often incredibly simple and blunt, yet for all our powers of reason, we often miss the most basic and uncomplicated of points:

Peace-loving Muslims have been made irrelevant by their silence.
Peace-loving Muslims will become our enemy if they don't speak up, because like my friend from Germany, they will awaken one day and find that the fanatics own them, and the end of their world will have begun.
Peace-loving Germans, Japanese, Chinese, Russians, Rwandans, Serbs, Afghans, Iraqis, Palestinians, Somalis, Nigerians, Algerians, and many others have died because the peaceful majority did not speak up until it was too late. As for us who watch it all unfold, we must pay attention to the only group that counts–the fanatics who threaten our way of life.

Lastly, anyone who doubts that the issue is serious and just deletes this email without sending it on, is contributing to the passiveness that allows the problems to expand. So, extend yourself a bit and send this on and on and on! Let us hope that thousands, world-wide, read this and think about it, and send it on - before it's too late.

Now it appears to make a lot of sense but I am far from a historical expert or an expert on world events. I think it would be interesting to hear peoples take on this.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:33PM
El Cid at 6:34AM, Sept. 6, 2010
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The facts sound true enough, but I don't think you're being given the complete picture. And this “Dr. Tanay” and German aristocrat are obviously fictional.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:20PM
DAJB at 7:04AM, Sept. 6, 2010
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Yup - it sounds reasonable enough but it's not the full story and it's obviously being used to foster hatred.

Take out the references to Islam and replace them with “animal rights activists”, “eco-terrorists”, street gangs, American imperialists, pro-life groups, trades unions etc etc, and you could use exactly the same rationale to condemn any group you want. Hell, it's not that long ago you could have made the same case against the suffragettes, many of whose actions could easily be classified as terrorist.

The answer to the extremists in any movement is to engage with the moderate majority, not to alienate it.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:04PM
bravo1102 at 7:16AM, Sept. 6, 2010
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Let the Islamist fanatic spout his hatred and eventually he will fade into the background as he has so often in the past for that cycle is the will of Allah.

The whole course of the modern Islamist tide is led by fanatics. (I'm going to use the term Islamist for the radical fanatics as that has become the accepted term in most of the literature. ) Islamists are very persausive fanatics and very skilled at twisting words to their own ends. The movement can be traced from an Islamic inferiority complex at the hands of the Europeans going back to Napoleon's invasion of Egypt and their often brutal attempts to catch up. This led to the inevitable backlash which is what we are seeing today.

Most Islamists are well studied and knowledgable about Islamic tradition and philosophy and they take inspiration from great teachers who led the charge against the Arisotolian philosophy of the Early Middle Ages. That was when Islam turned against observation as a way of interpreting the world and went back to the Koran and the words of the Prophet and the first Caliphs as the only way. In the face of the oppression of mid-20th century thinkers imprisioned by secular governments they turned back to this model of the power of their faith to fight against modernism and secularism.

Some of this is distorted by their fanaticism and knee jerk responses to modernism. The Shaira law of the first Caliphs was not as brutal as it is today. The berka and the veil are from the Byzantines not Islam. But each is a reaction to percieved threats of modern secular liberalism.

Islamic Fanatics have always used terror to keep the majority quiet. Islamists are heir to the great masters of terror and assassination. The term assassination is from a fantatic Islamic group. Terror is a way to keep a majority quiet. Don't speak up or out or you'll be the next to die. A fanatic is convinced he is going to paradise, the moderate doesn't want his loved ones to suffer the pain of his loss or worse because of his moderate stance.

In Islam there is no one orthadoxy. There is no Pope or Patriarch who can say “this is what everybody shall believe” There are numerous fatwahs issued by numerous learned Imams based on numerous interpretations of scripture which is not just the Koran but also the collected words and deeds of the Prophet and the first four Caliphs. Some groups add other stories of other martyrs and teachers from the first few centuries of Islam.

Westerners aren't aware of this. They don't see why the Islamist keep referring to people and events from a thousand years ago. But to the Islamist all the knowledge necessary to live now and forever can be found in the words and events of those ages long ago. To the Islamist, westerners are still Crusaders out to carve an enclave from the bosom of the Islamic community. Is it any wonder that the dates of the attacks on the West 9/11 et al, are all dates etched in ancient Islamic history? Is it any wonder some are so afraid of an Islamic cultural center four blocks from Ground Zero because Islam has a tradition of putting mosques on the site of their victories?

For the record I'm not agaisnt it as welcoming Islam into the American mainstream will deflect the power of the Islamist radicals. Some of the Islamic moderate's rhetoric is offensive to the Western mind because we don't see the compromise of co-existence being offered. That co-existence is the lesson to be drawn from Islamic history if we want the fanatics to fail and fade away as they have in the past.




last edited on July 14, 2011 11:33AM
ozoneocean at 7:24AM, Sept. 6, 2010
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It's a fake e-mail sent to foster hate towards Islam.
Do a quick google on Dr. Emanuel Tanay to see for yourself.
Google
http://www.slantright.com/index.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1575
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emanuel_Tanay

Took me two seconds.

The fact is that extremists are the same no matter what religion or cause they represent, and they do NOT represent the whole!
There are some truly horrible nationalist, violent Brits around… but do they represent all of the UK? Is the UK a threat to world peace because of those nutters?
What about all those extreme right-wing Christians in the US who hate and attack gay people? All the militia groups that train to kill government officials and want to kill Mexicans? Do they represent ALL of the US?
Or those crazed Jewish settlers who routinely attack Palestinian civilians and steal their land, do they represent ALL Israelis?

No, no, no, and nonononono.
All that sort of thing is always fucking nonsense.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:37PM
Genejoke at 8:34AM, Sept. 6, 2010
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ozoneocean
It's a fake e-mail sent to foster hate towards Islam.
Do a quick google on Dr. Emanuel Tanay to see for yourself.
Google
http://www.slantright.com/index.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1575
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emanuel_Tanay

Took me two seconds.

The fact is that extremists are the same no matter what religion or cause they represent, and they do NOT represent the whole!
There are some truly horrible nationalist, violent Brits around… but do they represent all of the UK? Is the UK a threat to world peace because of those nutters?
What about all those extreme right-wing Christians in the US who hate and attack gay people? All the militia groups that train to kill government officials and want to kill Mexicans? Do they represent ALL of the US?
Or those crazed Jewish settlers who routinely attack Palestinian civilians and steal their land, do they represent ALL Israelis?

No, no, no, and nonononono.
All that sort of thing is always fucking nonsense.

haven't read the articles yet but they maybe just as suspect as the e mail, but nothing in that emial preaches hate, in fact it says the same thing you did with the line I highlighted.

So it seems despite it being fake you agree with it, am I correct?

last edited on July 14, 2011 12:33PM
ozoneocean at 8:56AM, Sept. 6, 2010
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Genejoke
So it seems despite it being fake you agree with it, am I correct?
It neither says the same thing I am saying nor do I agree with the fake e-mail- that has been proven fake.
You could e-mail the man in question himself, as people have already done to check :)

I say that current extremists are all the same, no matter what they claim to represent. The fake e-mail uses examples of terrible situations from the past and makes a leap connecting Islamic extremists with whatever the people were who instigated each of those situations. This is nothing but spurious hypothesising at best, at worst it is deliberately trying to stir hate and suspicion of Islam.

In my assessment, given its proved false attribution, I lean towards the latter.



If I wanted to debate the propaganda in the deliberately falsely attributed e-mail, I'd… Actually I wouldn't. There are so many outright lies, skewed facts, and half truths in there, it's really quite shocking that such shit keeps getting reproduced, given that we know exactly what its purpose is.

As far as I can see here, the real question up for debate should be "why the insistent Islamaphobia, and what do people think about propaganda?'
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:37PM
Genejoke at 9:34AM, Sept. 6, 2010
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So current extremists are different to those of the past how?

Anyway I see what you are saying about the email, but how many people will read it and take it solely as a message for tolerance? (and that part of it you echoed the sentiments of, even if it is part of a larger message) I mean after all that is what it appears to be, the anti islam stuff is there hence the thread but realistically how many people would. I doubt the person who forwarded it to me saw it as a hate message and I wasn't sure how to take it.
I haven't come across much of this stuff to be honest, and none of it has been subtle usually straight out hate shit.


As for Islamaphobia… well I await Kyupols response. :)

last edited on July 14, 2011 12:33PM
ozoneocean at 11:18AM, Sept. 6, 2010
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Genejoke
So current extremists are different to those of the past how?
Because it's not talking about extremists in the past ;)

It's talking about horrible political and social events and situations and saying that the “badies” in those situations are the same as the extremists now, which is utter nonsense and a typical scare tactic. It creates a false association- Nazis were bad, they started out this way… look what they did in the end! See how they mirror these Ismalists?? See???

This is the way a lot of propaganda operates: it wears a mask of seaming sense and respectability, when what it's pedaling is utter shite.


Take this as a great example of a bit of bad sophistry:
The fact is that the fanatics rule Islam at this moment in history. It is the fanatics who march. It is the fanatics who wage any one of 50 shooting wars worldwide. It is the fanatics who systematically slaughter Christian or tribal groups throughout Africa and are gradually taking over the entire continent in an Islamic wave. It is the fanatics who bomb, behead, murder, or honour-kill. It is the fanatics who take over mosque after mosque. It is the fanatics who zealously spread the stoning and hanging of rape victims and homosexuals. It is the fanatics who teach their young to kill and to become suicide bombers.
-“Fanatics” do not rule Islam.
-“Fanatics” are not waging those wars. All those wars are being fought for traditional reasons: tribal conflicts, nationalism, deference, resources, old grudges, land, etc.
-Tribal groups, Christian and Muslim slaughter EACH OTHER.
-The fanatics who DO bomb, behead etc make up a tiny, tiny proportion of the overall violence.
-Suicide bombers are not young who were taught to kill, they're overwhelmingly adults who have taken that choice upon themselves for their own reasons.
-What it says about stoning and hanging rape victims and homosexuals is obvious conflation of various isolated situations in Iran and rural Pakistan. The the things are happening on a wide scale to homosexuals all throughout Christian Africa, by the silent majority.


This is a message of fear. It is designed to induce fear, mistrust and hatred. In that it is exactly the same as the sort of thing issued by the “Fanatical” Islamists it pretends to warn us about.

In short, this e-mail is an example of extremist propaganda. :)
Want to see how the fanatics real people in? How they get people over to their side and listening to their ideas? That is how they do it.
Islamists, Islamaphobes, Irish Nationalists, Tamil Tigers, Hezbollah, Militant Israeli settlers, The BNP, US christian Militias… This is their tactic.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:37PM
Blackhoodcomics at 9:36AM, Sept. 7, 2010
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This is an American Muslim veterans take on Islam;

First I would like to inform anyone reading this that I was born into a Muslim family right in East Elmhurst New York. I served in the Army in the 19 Kilo M.O.S. ( military occupational speciality ), or M1A1 Tank Crewman from 1989-93. I fought in Desert Shield/Storm as a Tank Gunner in the First Armored Division and saw action against the Iraqi Republican Guard. During 9-11 my sister, who is a paramedic in New york, and a Muslim, was injured while helping the wounded as a first responder. My brother in law, a Detective who was at One Police Plaza, was also a first responder and suffers from respitoray problems to this day.

I love my country and fought for her, but let us tell the truth about why there is so much hatred in the Muslim world against America.

1. The Muslim world sees the mistreatment of Palestinians in their own homeland by outsiders, and America does not act as an impartial broker between them and Israel ( who has the forth most well equipped military in the world and fights a civilian population ). Whether you agree with Israel or not, from the Muslim point of view they are invaders, and just as you don't have an obligation to share your home with someone who black boot stomps your door down, neither does the Palestinians. Israel is there to stay, but the mistreatment of the natives of that land is a great source of frustration and anger for the entire Muslim world, and because America backs Israel and supports her finanically, anger is directed towards these shores.

2. America has interferred with the internal affairs of Muslim countries. Let's look at Iran for a second. They had a democratically elected president who nationalized the oil, so the CIA and British intelligence had him overthrown for the Shah of Iran, who allowed western oil companies to come in and control that source of revenue again. This is what led to the Iranian revolution that brought the Ayatollah to power. Iran has not forgotten this meddling and resents us to this day.

3. Before and after the first Gulf War sanctions were used on Iraq, which did not hurt Saddam Hussein, but the average citizen who had nothing to do with the policies of their country. Hospitals could not get incubators for premature babies.

The attack of 9-11 is strictly forbidden in Islam. Here is the evidence:
and shaykh afifi states:


[it is not permissible to kill their women and children if they are not in direct combat.]

This is based on the Prophetic prohibition on soldiers from killing women and children, from the well known Hadith of Ibn ‘Umar (may Allâh be pleased with them both!) related by Imams Malik, al-Shafi’i, Ahmad, al-Bukhari, Muslim, Ibn Majah, Abu Dawud, al-Tirmidhi, al-Bayhaqi and al-Baghawi (may Allâh be well pleased with them all!) and other Hadiths.

Imam al-Subki, :anhu:, made it unequivocally clear what scholars have understood from this prohibition in which the standard rule of engagement taken from it is that: " may not kill any women or any child-soldiers unless they are in combat directly, and they can only be killed in self-defence" .

It goes without saying that men and innocent bystanders who are not direct combatants are also included in this prohibition. The nature of this prohibition is so specific and well-defined that there can be no legal justification, nor can there be a legitimate shar'î excuse, for circumventing this convention of war by targeting non-combatants or civilians whatsoever, and that the hukm shar'î of killing them is not only harâm but also a Major Sin and contravenes one of the principal commandments of our way of life.

and i have heard scholars quote this verse from al-Qur'an:

“And fight for the sake of God those who fight you: but do not commit excesses, for God does not love those who exceed (i.e., the Law)”

…noting how it specifally says ‘those who fight you’ - not anyone else.


So, let us work to understand the legitimate frustrations of the Muslim world while destroying the imposters that use the title Muslim to shield their dirty practice of mass murder.

POST SCRIPT;

I was stationed in Mannheim Germany for two and a half years and I can say that the German people are some of the nicest people in the world, and the email you received hardly speaks for all of them.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:23AM
Rafen at 10:31AM, Sept. 7, 2010
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I personally believe the west's “dance” with Islam is going to take a very violent turn in about 20 years (as in the west is gonna kick them really hard.), it won't nessacrily mean war, but I imagine mass deportation and eviction is something we can look forward to. I don't mean to pry but I can honestly say that in the west we've given to much high ground and we tolerate their behaviour far to much. Christains are still treated like second class citizens in many muslim nations (Don't get me started on Saudi Arabia) and yet in places like USA it's moral to allow them to walk all over us.

Just a few weeks ago I heard about how an old woman was pushed of a pedestrian path by several women in Niquib's all on CCTV, it only made the 4th page of a local paper (not in the states btw) in the tinest column. You only need to google the “grand Mufti of austrlia” to see how overly tolerant we are. Granted I'd say a vast majority of “western muslims” are very nice people who have assimilated well into society but their silence is doing them, us or their faith any favours. Continually in Christaindom whenever some pulls out the “god hates fags” or similar opinion we move quickly to counter and silence him. Yet I see little effort in similar endeavours in the global muslim community, instead they only ask that we “understand them” which almost seems like some cynical attempt to convert us.

That being said I have had a alot of positive experinces with Muslims, but a majority of these people are not the ones you find in our immigration queues, they either immigrated in the 70s, speak and dress as is the local fashion or are still in the nation they came from and are working hard to modernize and improve their nations (several Arab nations are good examples of this) to create a better life for the next generation, on they built themselves rather than “stealing it from the white man's father” as one man once told me. These sorts of people pride themselves on being modest, honourable and willing to respect our rules and customes where they apply, provided of course we do the same (which they all demand).

I find it quite sad that we a civilisation can't seem to draw a line, instead we cling to ideas of “multiculturlism” and “many peoples one nation” which are clearly not working. I know everyone seems to be quite unfond of these right wing groups, but because we constantly listen to the “do gooders” we constantly find ourselves trampled on. So unfortunatly I predict one day we won't just stand firm, we'll kick and scream as the west bears it's uncivil violent fangs just as Europe did when the Moors tried to exand their control over Spain. It will be bloody, it will be brutal and it will all be because we did not ensure that muslims did not follow our rules in our lands just as we follow their rules in their lands. Call me a cynical bastard, but that would mean its because we all couldn't “understand” each other.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:59PM
ozoneocean at 10:57AM, Sept. 7, 2010
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Blackhoodcomics
This is an American Muslim veterans take on Islam;
Brilliant post! :)

Rafen
I personally believe the west's “dance” with Islam is going to take a very violent turn in about 20 years
Wow, modern day Enoch Powell.



People are people. No need to be afraid. It's only culture and religion. They're the same as us.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:37PM
mlai at 10:07PM, Sept. 7, 2010
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@ Rafen:

You need to realize something… The U.S. of A. is not the nation of Caucasian Christians. That's your imaginary USA but it was never the real USA.

The same fears surged when the Catholics immigration wave hit the nation, when the “negroes” were emancipated, when more Asians hit the west coast to join their railroad-building brethrens. And now with the Latino “invasion.”

This nation never belonged solely to the white Protestants for any extended length of time. There has always been “foreign groups” coming into the USA. This is because the Founding Fathers, when drafting the soul of the nation, had already had a vision of a nation of many religions, where all men are equal. If you disagree with them, then this country is not right for you and you should immigrate somewhere more appropriate.

Addendum:

As Ozone noted, the conflicts against radical Islamists aren't truly religious. It's more social and political in nature. Islam is simply used by these radicals as a rallying cry. There are 1.5 BILLION Muslims on Earth. Are you saying that you need to make all of them your enemies because of a few radicals who bomb Christians and Muslims alike? You know these same radicals bomb mosques and kill Muslims, right? On Islamic holy days? If Muhammed was here he'd smite them all.

FIGHT current chapter: Filling In The Gaps
FIGHT_2 current chapter: Light Years of Gold
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:06PM
Rafen at 6:33AM, Sept. 8, 2010
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Someone
You need to realize something… The U.S. of A. is not the nation of Caucasian Christians. That's your imaginary USA but it was never the real USA.

What makes you think I was specifically refering your secular state? (I find the “all men are equal” line quite ironic btw).

But as you say, Islamic radicals are only using the religous word as a rally call, unfortunatly its very succesful. What disapoints me however is that their community doesn't seem to “take out their own political trash” like we do.

And no my prediction is not one I agree with on an ethical standpoint. But I see it happening nonetheless.

The real question I would like to ask is how many problems would go away if the states left Israel high and dry? I myself am none to sure on the answer.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:59PM
ozoneocean at 7:49AM, Sept. 8, 2010
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Rafen
What disapoints me however is that their community doesn't seem to “take out their own political trash” like we do.
Which community? Do you mean the Muslims in your own country or in other Muslim countries? If you mean your own, there is no separate political and civil community, it's all the same group- you and the Muslims :).
If you mean Muslim countries, the nutters are marginalised or they attain political power, depending on the overall political tenor of the time, social conditions etc, just like anywhere else. For example, a crazy man like Glen Beck can achieve staggering levels of popularity just by playing on people's insecurities and fears and that's the same everywhere. And just the same as everywhere else there are those in opposition to the crazy guy.

Rafen
The real question I would like to ask is how many problems would go away if the states left Israel high and dry? I myself am none to sure on the answer.
Even though the conflict and the situation with the Palestinians in Israel is the engine that drives most of the upheaval, we all know it wouldn't be fixed if the US left Israel to her own devices. Israel has nuclear weapons for a start, but even if she didn't and various countries did finally succeed in invading, war, strife and power struggles would still continue as bad as ever, probably worse- Since all Muslim countries are NOT the same, those are very different peoples, united only in a shared religion and a shared condemnation of Israel. There would certainly be horrible war amongst them that would probably spread.

No, the US leaving Israel alone would probably be the worst thing for everyone, especially the Palestinians.


In regards to the US and Israel, I think what needs to happen is that the US should play more of an honest, neutral role in overseeing the situation between the Palestinians and the Israelis. By all means the US should continue the alliance and defend Israel from real threats by outside parties and continue to send economic aid and even military aid, by the trillion! But instead of always playing down and even supporting abuses of the Palestinians within Israel and the actions of Israel in Lebanon, the Golan heights etc The US should openly criticise and rebuke them- as they would any country which acted similarly.- maybe even institute cultural sanctions (but not Military or economic, That would weaken her and in tern destabilise the region)
Not only would that appease Muslims who feel a kindred for the plight there, more importantly it would provide some real impetus for Israel to deal with those situations a little more tactfully and peacefully, which would be a great move forward.

-In short: Keep Israel strong and secure, but make sure she sorts out her problems in a just and mature way instead of like another South Africa.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:37PM
Genejoke at 10:57AM, Sept. 8, 2010
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ozone put it far better than I could. I was going to make a jokey analogy but thought it may be taken out of context so I stayed quiet.

The whole situation is volatile and that is a large part of the problem with western perceptions of muslim countries.

Out of curiosity what's the problem with Glen Beck?
Never heard of him until just now and just googled him but it all seems too moderate (so far) to call him a nutter.

Scratch that. found plenty.

It is funny how that level of stupity can be hilarious and offensive at the same time.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:33PM
bravo1102 at 4:03PM, Sept. 8, 2010
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What happens when the fanatic uses propaganda and fabricates all kinds of things to make you look bad no matter what you do? What happens when everyone believes their story whole hog but no one will ever listen to yours?

When does evidence not matter and belief take over? Whenever people stop looking at evidence and just follow their belief. Everything that does not agree with their world view is suspect and derided even labeled hate and propaganda that which agress with them is rarely suspect.

There are fanatics everywhere and they have tried to take over religion and politics again and again like waves beating against the shore. All we can do is try our best to sort out truth from silliness and keep our fears and blind beliefs from blinding us to the evidence. Challenge that source, look behind the words and think critically.

But please never take your own beliefs as gospel because you can always be wrong too. ;) You got to listen and check your facts because even a paranoid has enemies.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:34AM

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