Debate and Discussion

A New World Order: Good or Bad?
kyupol at 1:42PM, Nov. 17, 2008
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This isn't about whether it exists or not. As it does exist.

Proof?

http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/4763677a1865.html
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/Opinion/Sudeshna_Sen_World_Eco_Summit/articleshow/3720725.cms

http://www.merinews.com/catFull.jsp?articleID=149296

http://www.thestar.com/comment/article/537435




And ever heard of the Bilderberg? The CFR? The Trilateral Commission?

——-

Now, what does a New World Order mean for the average person?

Does it mean global enslavement? A return to feudalism in where there are only two classes of people? The ultra rich and the dirt poor peasants.


Or…

Does it mean something good? Does it mean a new age of peace, prosperity, happiness, love, etc?


Again.

New World Order?

Good thing?

or Bad thing?


Discuss.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 1:26PM
ozoneocean at 3:04PM, Nov. 17, 2008
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This isn't about whether it exists or not. As it does exist.
It exists as a phrase to quote and make a headline with. ;)

People just use it to emphasise their idea that they think a significant change will happen. But today's news headline is tomorrow's recycling… Or in this case they'll be dead links eventually. :)
It's mostly wishful thinking because change in world politics and financial structures is actually pretty slow (unless you have wars). A “new world order” is generally something you look back on and comment about in history, or something you look to in the future, not observe in the present.

Apart from that well all know it's a silly phrase that means something very different and strange to people with crazy theories about the world that don't reflect reality. ^_^
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:32PM
lothar at 4:17PM, Nov. 17, 2008
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i say it's a good thing if it gets the christianity islam and judaism to chill the fuck out ! ! but likely they will take it as some sort of evil harbinger of the end times that they should fight against , thus derailing any prospects for global peace and prosperity and instead bring about their long awaited armagedon .
god is a trouble maker and needs to get out of the sandbox before he ruins everything .
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:45PM
bravo1102 at 4:22PM, Nov. 17, 2008
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New World Order as an idea goes back a long way. Wilson tried it after the Great War, then after WW2 they tried again in San Francisco. The term most recently according to the research done by Alex Heard in Apoclypse Pretty Soonit has been co-opted by people with a neo-nazi white-supremecist bent back in the 1980s with connections to the Milita groups and the Born Again Christian Apoclyptic crowd. It's ironic that a lot of the CFR and Bilderberger New World Order conspiracy theories are also used by African American groups who can also be very anti-semitic. Neo nazi white supremcists believing in the same sort of conspiracy as Black Liberationist Theology and the Nation of Islam. Strange bed-fellows.

You see all your stuff about the CFR and Bilderbergers was once said (and still is) about the evil world wide Jewish conspiracy and is lifted nearly verbatim from The Protocals of the Elders of Zion. So the people who are telling you all these things when you strip it all down are talking about the Jews (Rothschilds, Bilderbergers, world banking: the evil Jewish Conspiracy written up by the Imperial Russian secret police based on a satirical French play)

You see Kyupol I once believed what you did, then I peeked behind the curtain and the conspiracy is far more sinister and tragic than any group of Bilderbergers or Illuminati could ever be. It almost won once and six million died and now you're feeding into what they claim again.



last edited on July 14, 2011 11:33AM
kyupol at 5:16PM, Nov. 17, 2008
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@bravo1102 - wow. Nice try on linking “conspiracy theorists” with anti-semites.

Not all of those who believe in conspiracies share the same ideology of anti-semitism. It is made of a wide assortment of people and there are ideological differences in all of those groups. So far I've seen
- blame all the jews for everything
- blame all the catholics for everything
- atheists
- communist leaning tendencies (like that zeitgeist film)
- racist leaning tendencies (doesnt matter if its white or black)
- christians
- vegetarians
- believers in UFOs, reptoids, and those spirit related stuff.
- its not just white people. its GLOBAL. There's blacks, latinos, indians, asians, arabs, etc.

————-
@ozoneocean - If there is no New World Order, please explain why:

- The war on Iraq is still on even if majority of the world is against it.
- The banker bailout happened even if most people are against it.
- Even if the banker bailout happened, the stock market is still going down.
- The fluoridation of water continues despite the bad effects of fluoride.
- Vaccination is still being pushed despite its bad effects.
- There was a media blackout of the Bilderberg meeting.

I'm interested in your take on this.

—————-

@lothar - not all Christians, Jews, and Muslims are in to shooting each other. Most likely, those organized religions have already been infiltrated.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 1:26PM
ozoneocean at 7:00PM, Nov. 17, 2008
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kyupol
@ozoneocean - If there is no New World Order, please explain why:

- The war on Iraq is still on even if majority of the world is against it.
- The banker bailout happened even if most people are against it.
- Even if the banker bailout happened, the stock market is still going down.
- The fluoridation of water continues despite the bad effects of fluoride.
- Vaccination is still being pushed despite its bad effects.
- There was a media blackout of the Bilderberg meeting.

I'm interested in your take on this.
Most of these things are completely unrelated, and where relationships exist, (Iraq and stock market), they're rather obvious and prosaic (Simply part of the movement of funds and something to worry investors). Apart from that you have a mythical connection in that they're all constituent parts of this particular conspiracy idea…

I'm not going to explain why all these factors are just boring parts of this every day world in which we live and don't add up to something strange and terrifying because it would take too long and wouldn't convince you anyway.

It's enough to know that you really seem to have a firm conviction in this idea. :)
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:32PM
StaceyMontgomery at 7:11PM, Nov. 17, 2008
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bravo1102
New World Order as an idea goes back a long way. Wilson tried it after the Great War, then after WW2 they tried again in San Francisco. The term most recently according to the research done by Alex Heard in Apoclypse Pretty Soonit has been co-opted by people with a neo-nazi white-supremecist bent back in the 1980s with connections to the Milita groups and the Born Again Christian Apoclyptic crowd. It's ironic that a lot of the CFR and Bilderberger New World Order conspiracy theories are also used by African American groups who can also be very anti-semitic. Neo nazi white supremcists believing in the same sort of conspiracy as Black Liberationist Theology and the Nation of Islam. Strange bed-fellows.

You see all your stuff about the CFR and Bilderbergers was once said (and still is) about the evil world wide Jewish conspiracy and is lifted nearly verbatim from The Protocals of the Elders of Zion. So the people who are telling you all these things when you strip it all down are talking about the Jews (Rothschilds, Bilderbergers, world banking: the evil Jewish Conspiracy written up by the Imperial Russian secret police based on a satirical French play)

You see Kyupol I once believed what you did, then I peeked behind the curtain and the conspiracy is far more sinister and tragic than any group of Bilderbergers or Illuminati could ever be. It almost won once and six million died and now you're feeding into what they claim again.



Well said.

I would LIKE to say that anti-semitism is just one particular expression of this particular form of paranoia and madness, because that would seem more likely.

But the truth is that you are right - I've been down these paths, and it's always anti-semitism behind the curtain in the end. It is a particularly nasty version of a deep human evil - the belief that there are bad people, call them Witches or Commies or the capitalists or the Dykes or the Jews (but usually the Jews) that cause all the problems and if we can just get rid of them then things will get better.

The truth is, there is no evil man in the shadows causing our failures and spinning our evils - we do it all ourselves.

In the end, the greatest evil turns out to be the claim that someone else is the greatest evil.


last edited on July 14, 2011 3:55PM
ozoneocean at 7:59PM, Nov. 17, 2008
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it's always anti-semitism behind the curtain in the end.
You have to wonder why though…
There are a number of factors that coincide to make this so I believe, not just a particular and strange tendency for some non-Jewish people to not like Jewish people.

1. It seems one of the earliest factors in the European prejudice is Christianity; the fact that it breaks away from Judaism, the fact that people blame Christ's death on the Jewish peoples, and some horrible and enduring unspoken jealously and envy that at the root of the Christian religion that Jews are/were STILL “God's chosen people”, not the gentiles, no matter what came after.

2. The Jewish Diaspora throughout Europe in the middle ages, largely due to on going problems in the homeland, of which the “Christian” Crusades (really land grabs and early European colonisation), were a big cause- with a lot of movement into the so-called “holy-land” by the various Muslim peoples in reaction to the Crusades.
In Europe, that gave rise to the traditional hate for “foreigners” who seemed to be “taking over” to any of the European communities the Jewish peoples settled in. And of course when you add in factor number one, it gets a lot worse.

3. Jewish people tended to keep strong, cohesive, supportive communities wherever they went and it took them a long time to integrate. So their cultural practises where always a bit mysterious and secret to outsiders, and because of they way they tend to do things they didn't marry outside their groups too much and so kept the same names and similar appearances. Plus, the communities of Jewish people were very well educated among themselves and supported each other in their endeavours, so many Jewish people would tend to be seen to be wealthy and “controlling” particular industries within the communities of which they were part- like one family are successful silversmiths and they help a few others to be as well.
Which is very natural when you think about it: why not support your friends and family? After all, who else will, especially if the outside community is often hostile towards you?

4. You have all those factors adding up in outside observer's minds into one big welter of ignorance and idiocy. These things resulted in numerous horrific pogroms throughout the ages, culminating in the holocaust in WW2.
But the fourth factor now is Israel and the Palestinians: Islamic people and Arabs specifically (but many others as well), are prejudiced against the Jewish people as a whole because they side with the disposed Palestinians. It would be acceptable if that feeling was simply scepticism directed towards Israel, but quite often it's more than that; which is quite, quite wrong.

—————

So with those four prime factors that I can think of, those seem to add up into what makes modern anti-Semitism. I would say it's not the same thing at all as the medieval anti-Jewish prejudice, and the modern Islamic prejudice against them is not that much like the generalised Western Prejudice that gives rise to the idiot Illuminati idea and such, but they all feed into one another.

It helps to try and get an understanding of where it comes from though. It really does. In order to explode the myths. :)
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:32PM
StaceyMontgomery at 8:13PM, Nov. 17, 2008
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I suggest “Constantine's Sword” by James Carroll for this topic.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:55PM
kyupol at 9:22PM, Nov. 17, 2008
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I tend to stay away from the anti-semite crowd in this whole anti-new world order movement.

Because I wonder what kind of world will anti-semites make if ever they got their way. Its still gonna be the same oppressive police state that the New World Order wants.

I'm more of a libertarian.

I don't like paying carbon taxes and being conned by this whole “global warming / climate change” bs that you see all over the media.

I don't like the water being fluoridated and this whole agenda of soft-kill… errr… I mean vaccination.

I don't like government micro-managing my life and telling me what I can and cannot say (in the name of political correctness), what I can and cannot eat, where I can and cannot live, etc. All in the name of “keeping you safe”.

I believe that everyone has a right to exist, a right to say what they want (doesnt matter if its those evil racists. Just let em talk as long as they don't call for violence), a right to own weapons, a right to have security, a right to receive the truth and not the brainwashing matrix being played out by the media, etc.


It has nothing to do with Jews. lmao!

It is about the idea of freedom under attack.

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last edited on July 14, 2011 1:26PM
bravo1102 at 8:41AM, Nov. 21, 2008
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If you don't see the anti-semitism behind the New World Order paranoia you haven't researched it deep enough. When you get behind the Conspiracy group, behind the group and go to their website and look in their shop you will always find The Protocals of the Elders of Zion for sale.

And Ozone you're missing one important part of why the Jewish Community supported each other; it was all they had and almost always no one else would support them going back to Constantine and even earlier among early Christians (support of Hebrew customs among Christians was a heresyby the end of the 2nd Century. Robin Lane Fox Pagans and Christians)

If no one else is on your side and you are effectively ostracized from mainstream society guess what? Any group would become very insular. Hebrews before the Christianization of the Roman Empire were very cosmopolitan and accepted throughout the empire and Yahweh was accepted as another god among others. Jews were even full Roman citizens.(Paul e.g.)

It practically wasn't until mid 19th century that Jews were considered full citizens of a nation and then mostly only in Western Europe.

“Next year in Jerusalem”

My Russian ancestors were the ones in the village kicking out the Jews to take their stuff. But when there were no more Jews to victimize the Cossacks turned on you. :)
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:33AM
NickGuy at 10:35AM, Nov. 21, 2008
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we need a new world order where we banish all religion and force people to focus on the here and now in the real world.

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last edited on July 14, 2011 2:15PM
kyupol at 11:54AM, Nov. 21, 2008
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If you don't see the anti-semitism behind the New World Order paranoia you haven't researched it deep enough.

I've seen that part and I reject it. And I don't believe in it because if you look at the list of bilderbergers, trilaterals, and CFR, its not only comprised of “jews”. There are also “christians”, “muslims”, “atheists”, etc.

The reason I put them in quotation marks is because they aren't really what they say they are. But they are OCCULTISTS / LUCIFERIANS. They gather around at Bohemian grove and worship an owl statue and with mock (some accounts say this is real) human sacrifices and do rituals centered around pedophilia.

Their god is Satan and Satan needs blood and negative energy. Thats why they create problems in the world. Um. Ok. Thats ooga booga stuff. I'm an atheist and I don't believe in that. The point is, THEY BELIEVE IN IT. THEY BELIEVE they are talking to non-human entities (aka reptoids / demons). THEY BELIEVE that they are getting magical powers by doing that. And actions of individuals are a result of what they believe in.


Just because anti-semitism is part of the agenda some anti-NWO groups, it doesnt totally discredit every one of them.

Its the same thing about Christianity for instance. There are Christian groups who absolutely HATE homosexuals. There are others who hate the homosexual ACT and not the person. There are others who accept homosexuals as a creation of God. And this homosexual issue becomes an issue of infighting among Christian factions.

I do believe the part about God and the part about loving thy neighbor. But I reject the part about hating homosexuals.


we need a new world order where we banish all religion and force people to focus on the here and now in the real world.

while it cant be denied that religion caused problems like wars and such, the same thing applies the other way around.

Whether you believe in it or not, the thing is, a Christian who really follows the bible isn't all about hating everyone who doesnt agree with him.

Think about the charitable operations that these religions do. Like giving the poor food, clothing, shelter, and spiritual guidance.

The reason why the Satanist NWO hates religion is because they (the REAL ones. Not the fake ones who love to hatemonger against everyone else who doesnt agree with them. That's why LISTEN CAREFULLY TO YOUR PRIEST/PASTOR/MINISTER.) have proven to be a roadblock to a certain extent in their agenda of mass population reduction and global enslavement. At least its the priests who tell their flocks the evils of abortion, contraception, promiscuity, materialism, vaccines, etc.

Because the New World Order want a world that is decadent, that is materialistic, that only thinks about me me me and more me.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 1:26PM
lothar at 12:28PM, Nov. 21, 2008
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kyupol
Whether you believe in it or not, the thing is, a Christian who really follows the bible isn't all about hating everyone who doesnt agree with him.


it all depends on how the christian interprets the bible . more often than not they just use it to justify some repressive or barbaric actions against other human beings.
anyone who “follows the bible” far enough , will eventually find themself standing on a corner raving at strangers . that , or they will wise up and get out of the religion .
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:45PM
kyupol at 10:59PM, Nov. 21, 2008
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anyway, shifting back on topic, has anyone here read the PROJECT FOR THE NEW AMERICAN CENTURY?

I've seen the actual document itself. And its like looking at the world through the eyes of some really bad people. Much worse than the “badguys” of any comic in this site.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 1:26PM
StaceyMontgomery at 8:08PM, Nov. 22, 2008
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kyupol
anyway, shifting back on topic, has anyone here read the PROJECT FOR THE NEW AMERICAN CENTURY?

I've seen the actual document itself. And its like looking at the world through the eyes of some really bad people. Much worse than the “badguys” of any comic in this site.

Well, look at the good side - you totally agree with these guys on global warming! I'm sure you'll find lost more in common with them if you keep looking!
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:55PM
cartoonprofessor at 3:17PM, Nov. 23, 2008
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There always has been and always will be, people who try to gain and hold power for their own ends.

These ends may indeed be “for the betterment of everybody”, the problem is said people allow no room for debate and discussion outside of their own peer groups.

And yes, the US constitution is dead, as is my own country's.

The Australian constitution was a complex but brilliant document, placing British Common Law above all other laws. But in the mid eighties it was rendered obsolete with the Australia Act, an act that cut Aussies off from British Common Law and circumvented any recourse to Common Law (an amazing set of laws that protect our rights like no others) for anyone. (Mind you, British Common Law has likewise been circumvented by her entry into the EU, even though the original Law forbade anything like this from ever being able to happen)

Before the Australia Act came into being the Queensland government, fearing such a thing would happen, passed an act that would make it illegal… fat lot of good that did. They got around the Australia Act being constitutionally illegal by putting into law a ‘request’ for the Act (Hence writing into law new laws without actually writing them into law… how's that for legal doublespeak?)

Now our government can bring into law any act it so chooses without consultation of the people. We as a nation (like the US) have been sold out to the UN and its coorporate masters.

The fact is, any laws written by our forefathers to protect our rights are absolutely useless unless the citizens maintain a strong vigil on our ‘servants’ the politicians. Without constant mass public scrutiny such rights will always get eroded until they no longer exist.

Unfortunately we are too busy feeding our children, keeping a roof over our heads, and maintaining a materialistically high ‘standard of living’ to bother.

We care more about being entertained than about losing the freedoms countless people fought and died to get for us over many centuries.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:36AM
ozoneocean at 8:38PM, Nov. 23, 2008
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cartoonprofessor
the Australia Act
Never paid much attention to this back then… But wiki says the act simply separated Australian law from British law: enforced our national sovereignty in legal matters. That meant that British courts no longer had any jurisdiction over what happened in our country and you couldn't appeal cases to the British courts.

Of course Wiki could be wrong, as it often is, but that sounds about right and not too bad. Plus, with your description of what the state of Queensland tried to do, in the light of what Wiki say that's hardly surprising- Queensland was a very conservative state back then under Jo Bjelke Petersen. I imagine he'd have been extremely loathe to separate us from the U.K. courts like that.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:32PM
cartoonprofessor at 11:24PM, Nov. 23, 2008
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Unfortunately however, Common Law is the only set of laws that actually protect our rights as citizens.

The ‘Founding Fathers’ (for want of a better term) acknowledged the inherent value of the Common Law system put into place by generations of British politicians to protect the rights of the citizens.

Rather than rewriting these Laws into our Constitution, they merely acknowledged these laws as covering all citizens under the Commonwealth… which is why they wrote into the constitution the prerequisite for Citizen-initiated referendum to change any part of the constitution, especially the link to British Common Law.

Common Law did not give British courts any jurisdiction over Aust citizens, it actually gave the citizens jurisdiction over parliament.

This has now been reversed… now parliament has jurisdiction over the citizens, even though parliamentarians are supposed to serve us as our representatives, not the other way around.

The Australia Act was written into law to ‘legalise’ the many UN charters and laws that Australia was becoming a signatory to at the time. Up to that point these charters were actually illegal because referendums were not held, as demanded by our constitution.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:36AM
NickGuy at 11:43AM, Nov. 24, 2008
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lothar
it all depends on how the christian interprets the bible . more often than not they just use it to justify some repressive or barbaric actions against other human beings.
anyone who “follows the bible” far enough , will eventually find themself standing on a corner raving at strangers . that , or they will wise up and get out of the religion .

yeah, I dont understand how people can take it literally…why not just read it as the warning fable it is?

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last edited on July 14, 2011 2:15PM
KingRidley at 9:37PM, Nov. 24, 2008
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Kyupol: You're one of the few people capable of really making me feel bad about human beings. And I love humanity. Woowoo Homo Sapiens, superiority in the food chain, fuck mother nature, all that stuff. You make me feel bad about humans.




Of course it's not because anything you're saying is true. Seriously, whenever you post I get suspicious of the definitions of the words you use. I get temporarily depressed because it's so easy for people to get caught up in these elaborate theories and discount anything outside of their little web as lies or conspiracies. I feel bad because so many humans let others do their thinking for them, on both sides of the conspiracy theories. There are so many people who could be putting that blind dedication towards something good instead of just calling shadows communists or lizard aliens. Why is it so easy to believe these crazy theories instead of just looking at the world for what it really is? Just a planet covered in angry little life-forms that haven't unified under any goals, and probably never will. There are no conspiracies or Illuminati. Hell, I believe in Aliens and God, but I don't think either of them has ever really visited Earth for a long long time (in the case of the aliens, if they've visited at all- which they haven't).

When I read these theories, I get genuinely sad for a little while. Then I have to either move on to something else to take my mind off of it, or just list all the good things humanity is responsible for. And yes, we have done many good things. We're not inherently evil.



My view on this? A New World Order is impossible. It's a nice dream, all of humanity gathered under one force (hopefully a good one), but it's unrealistic. I have always felt that Subconsciously everyone hates everyone else. The only things that can bring us together are events of great fortune, or total tragedies.

But thank you Kyupol for taking the time to make my day a little bit darker.









Bravo1102 you are awesome. High Five.


edit: gotta add that I'm not saying any of this just to insult kyupol. I'm not saying it with any intent to attack him. I had a bunch of points/counter points, but really what good would it have done?
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:16PM
cartoonprofessor at 2:13AM, Nov. 25, 2008
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KingRidley
Hell, I believe in Aliens and God, but I don't think either of them has ever really visited Earth for a long long time (in the case of the aliens, if they've visited at all- which they haven't).

Course they haven't visited!

They come from here! You don't ‘visit’ where you live. : )
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:36AM
ozoneocean at 2:47AM, Nov. 25, 2008
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Personally, I take the meaning of the phrase “New World Order” literally, not as the catchphrase of some ninny-brained foolish group.

If you DO take it literally the conversation actually becomes more interesting, to me at least.

Consider: You have an established world order based on the current global political power situation of the day, something happens to suddenly alter that (like WW1 or WW2), or gradually (industrial revolution), and you end up with a New World Order. :)

That's how I've mostly heard and seen the phrase used too actually, very rarely have I heard it used to describe this weirdo conspiracy, and then only by one friend, always in disparaging light, who was an avid reader of the Fortean times.
The only other time was the name of some stupid group on that stupid show about stupid big muscle bound stupid men made for stupid people. :)
-I didn't think much off it…
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:32PM

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