Debate and Discussion

adoption is bad!
subcultured at 1:03AM, June 12, 2007
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Says some people…
http://www.antiadoption.org/whyopposeadoption.html

Mothers who lost their children to adoption during the Baby Scoop Era consistently report feeling coerced and pressured by several sources, including their family members and social workers. In addition, these mothers report lasting trauma as a result of their losses; trauma which includes depression, Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder, grief, regret, and secondary infertility. Multiple studies confirm these findings. Adoption today is promoted despite concrete evidence that it is damaging to surrendering mothers.

As you can see, adoption is not a benevolent institution at all. Rather, it is a capitalistic industry that employs the use of coercion, false promises, and secrecy to thrive. However, even many who acknowledge these problems believe that the system itself is necessary for some children, in some situations. I disagree.

As an alternative, the anti-adoption movement endorses permanent legal guardianship for children who cannot be raised by their natural parents. Legal guardians can be extended family members like grandparents, older siblings, aunts, and uncles. They can also be strangers or family friends, appointed by the child's parent or by the courts.

There are myriad reasons to oppose adoption, including the damage caused to exiled parents and adopted children/adults. In addition, we believe that adoption is an inherently dishonest act. In other words, children are given one, true set of parents by nature, and these parents cannot be replaced or “switched at birth” based on a man-made legal document. Most importantly, it is unnecessary for anyone to endure the emotional damage and unnatural lies inflicted by adoption. It is not only possible, but critically important to assist struggling families without dismantling them.
Ummm… This doesn't work very well with abused children.
That our society find an honest and compassionate way to deal with its victims. The best option, of course, is to assist these parents in reforming themselves so that they can provide their children with a safe upbringing.
Yeah… Good luck with that.
All the legal documents in the world cannot wipe away the fact that true families are created by nature alone. From a moral point of view, it is not the job of fertile men and women to supply victims of infertility with children to raise.
Most adoptive parents love their child more because they want to make sure that they will grow up normal. nature creates families? No way… Families is about connection, not just nature.

J
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:02PM
ZeroVX at 4:33AM, June 12, 2007
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You've gotta be freakin' kidding me.

If you don't want to lose your kid, don't treat him/her like scum! Those kids are very impressionable, and if you abuse them, they're going to go on to abuse their children, and those children will abuse their own, and so on.

Someone
All the legal documents in the world cannot wipe away the fact that true families are created by nature alone. From a moral point of view, it is not the job of fertile men and women to supply victims of infertility with children to raise.

I disagree with this statement in particular. What law is there that states that family can only be related by blood? What about people that no longer have a family? Does that mean that they can only be alone for the rest of their lives?

Bottom line is: usually, parents who wind up surrendering their children are either parents who can't take care of their children, or really don't give two s****, in which case, they shouldn't be allowed to turn around and say “I want my child back”. You had your chance, you blew it. Live with it.
“If our own government was responsible for the deaths of almost 100,000 people…..would you really wanna know?”

V for Vendetta, V.
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:57PM
lothar at 5:35AM, June 12, 2007
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i'm familliar with the adoption proccess . i don't agree with letting the natural parents come sniffing around several years after the deed. once you decide to give away your offspring that's it, it's over for you , unless that kid comes looking for You ! in which case i would be tottaly happy !
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:45PM
isukun at 8:29AM, June 12, 2007
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I wouldn't say my sister is any less a part of my family just because she isn't blood related. I'm not sure i really buy the whole “coercion” bit either. I know for a fact that my sister's biological parents were not coerced (at least not in the way claimed above, there may have been some social issues since the couple wasn't married, but I'm not sure how bad the stigma is against single mothers in South Korea). Consider how many kids are currently in foster homes. People abandon, neglect, or abuse their children all the time. These kids deserve families that care about them. They shouldn't just be forced on the next of kin. That system hasn't worked anywhere else, why would it be different here? You force someone to take care of a child and they are more likely to see the child as a burden.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:04PM
Aurora Moon at 11:45AM, June 12, 2007
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The Adoption system right now is very bad, in my opinion… but not because of the reasons up above. I say it's bad because right now the system is seriously flawed.

There's a total sum of one million kids in the foster system care who hasn't been adopted yet and the more time passes for those poor kids the LESS likely they are to be adopted. After all, most of the parents-to-be that comes in basically has the same expections as any person looking to get an pet (aka, only wanting an puppy or a kitten). In other words, they usually only want a baby or even an toddler.
tough luck for all those six-year-olds and up! Esepcially if they have been on a waiting list in the system ever snice they were toddlers to get an parent!

And forget finding an parent quick if you're an “disabled” kid in foster care.

And the more time those kids wait to get adopted while being in the poorly managed foster care of foster parents, the most likely they are to have a lot of personal issues and problems in life.
A large chunk of the 1 mil parent-less kids often have the habit of being runaways, drug-users, etc. and some of those problem kids often slip though the cracks, disappearing off the books forever so they never get adopted at all. Those kids often end up homeless too if nobody notices them and reports them.

And before you say anything against me about how untrue this is, you're wrong. I happen to have met serval people who were foster kids. They were deaf, and well there was a lot of hearing people who acted as if that was like being in a wheelchair or even being mentally impaired. So they didn't want to adopt those kids.
So they ended up in foster care for the longest time… and they started smoking pot and other things at the young age of nine years old and eleven years old. they were finally adopted around 15-17 years old, when they were young adults on thier way to becoming adults.
Too long to wait for parents to adopt them, wouldn't you say?

To this day they still have problems, such as trying to stay clean.

Nope, the current adoption system isn't so good for kids at all…. espeically what with the flawed foster system. Do you realize that half of the foster parents are trailer trash/or poor, who only foster the kids for the money given to them by the gorvenment for doing so? So basically those kids are only moneybags to them.
And a lot of them are often poor rolemodels, leaving trash all over the house…. leaving porn out in the open, or worse, actually having drugs in easy access for those kids.

And guess what? half of the social workers don't give a shit about that, nethier… they don't check into that kind of thing often if it means less work for them. They only pretend to care if there was a possbity that it would go public.
They'll even leave the kids with thier real abusive parents for the longest time because they don't want to deal with the parents who might become violent towards the social workers… and then the kids dies or something.

The system is totally flawed and bad the way it is right now.
I'm on hitatus while I redo one of my webcomics. Be sure to check it out when I'n done! :)
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:10AM
Zenstrive at 6:29AM, June 13, 2007
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You know, there's an instance in which a grandparent of a child PAID another family to take the child; they don't want to be burdened with it. It happened here in Indonesia

Strange, but true. It really does take all kinds to make a world!
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:55PM
Aereis at 7:42AM, June 13, 2007
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I agree with Aurora Moon completely. I have two friends who were in orphanages, and they have horror stories galore. Especially one scum family whos father and two brothers raped her when she was finally placed. She didn't say anything because she wanted to finally belong. Personally, I want to foster parent a older teen. I'm not sure why, but they seem forgotten, and it reminds me of myself, though I've been with my biological parents all my life.

Back to the site though, I think that's sick. Does this person intend for unwanted babies to stay with the parents with no love? I think they do. And this person is not only a woman but a mother!
Someone
I wear many labels. I am a mother, a lover, and a friend. I am a breastfeeder, a homeschooler, and an instinctive parent. I am an atheist, an advocate of reproductive freedom, and a liberal. I am also an anti-adoption activist.

She also says she's an ‘instinctive’ parent. Haha that's funny, like everyone has that.

In 9th grade I wanted to be put into the foster care of my grandparents, but it fell through and now…well, I don't like my parents too much. Maybe I could have forgiven them if I lived with my grandparents instead.

Is she against abortion? I'm not sure, she says she's liberal, but she doesn't specifically say…
Someone
Certainly, there are tragic circumstances that require a child to be raised apart from his or her natural mother. Birth control fails, rape is unfortunately common, and not every woman has access to or spiritual beliefs compatible with abortion.

I get it, you can't raise your kid, so you give it away. Would you rather the kid be right there infront of you, holding you back, etc, fueling your anger? Or living happily with someone else? There are flaws in the system, but there are good stories where people are HAPPY living with non bio parents.
last edited on July 14, 2011 10:46AM
monsterfriend at 3:53PM, June 23, 2007
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i think adoption is good after all what about the kids abused by they're parents
Zoey: i need some chinese lets go to the nail salon

Holly: Uh Zoey they'll kind of freak if a zombie starts eating the nail
lady

Zoey: Fine lets get mexican they deliver with miracle grow
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:07PM
Aurora Moon at 4:25PM, June 23, 2007
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monsterfriend
i think adoption is good after all what about the kids abused by they're parents

happens in adopted families too. it goes both ways, buddy.
I'm on hitatus while I redo one of my webcomics. Be sure to check it out when I'n done! :)
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:10AM
Aurora Moon at 4:37PM, June 23, 2007
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Yeah. all I was saying that for all the “horror stories” of “real” families abusing thier blood-kin, it happens far more often in foster and adopted families.

So that tells me that the system is flawed, and that it seriously needs an big overhaul if we are to properly give most of those kids an second chance at happiness and an stable life. I believe that this country needs a system that uses an through background check of people's criminal and mental health records. The current one in most states doesn't even do that! So of course there's plenty of pedophiles who's using the adoption process to gain access to kids who'd do anything for love and to belong.

After all, an handful of kids getting good homes with decent famlies out of 1 million unadopted kids/or kids in abusive homes isn't good enough for me.

And worse, the numbers are growing all because of people who didn't believe in abortion who comdemned those kids to such misery.
I'm on hitatus while I redo one of my webcomics. Be sure to check it out when I'n done! :)
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:10AM
Hawk at 12:51PM, June 24, 2007
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Aurora Moon
monsterfriend
i think adoption is good after all what about the kids abused by they're parents

happens in adopted families too. it goes both ways, buddy.

You know, I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to prove anymore. Nobody should adopt anyone? All unwanted children should have been aborted in the first place?

I also think you're implying that all children who aren't raised by their biological parents get abused. You act like it's a regular thing.

Aurora Moon
And worse, the numbers are growing…

So how about you provide some of those “numbers” for us? Show us the number of adopted/foster children who were beaten and abused, versus the number who actually went on to a better life. Prove that these children would've been better off aborted and dead than in the lives they have now. Because it seems like a lot of conjecture right now.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:46PM
ZeroVX at 12:56PM, June 24, 2007
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That's not really fair, Hawk. You can't say a number for how many people get abused by their parents, because half the time, they're too scared to say anything. They just take it and take it, until they pass it on to children of their own.

Although, to be fair Aurora, you can't exactly say that abuse happens more in adoptive families because, again, half the time the kids don't say anything, whether they're adopted or not.

“If our own government was responsible for the deaths of almost 100,000 people…..would you really wanna know?”

V for Vendetta, V.
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:58PM
Aurora Moon at 6:59PM, June 24, 2007
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ZeroVX
That's not really fair, Hawk. You can't say a number for how many people get abused by their parents, because half the time, they're too scared to say anything. They just take it and take it, until they pass it on to children of their own.

Although, to be fair Aurora, you can't exactly say that abuse happens more in adoptive families because, again, half the time the kids don't say anything, whether they're adopted or not.



I said all that because I've met so many people who had been adopted, and along with an person who worked in an adoption agcency.

and I don't mean I just met like three people, I met at least 30 of them who were adopted… They were deaf, and just had entered the deaf community in terms of working for deaf schools, as students, etc.. as oppsited to being in hearing public schools.
And you know something? When I got to know them, and I asked them about thier adopted lives after a while 25 people out of 5 that I knew admitted or hinted that they had been abused…. and then they started opening up about it around each other once they realized that they weren't the only ones that had such things happen to them.

I helped run an support group for deaf people who had diffculities in life, you see. so that was how I knew so many people who had been abused that way.

and also before that there was a lot of foster/adopted deaf kids who went to the same boarding school I went to.

A lot of deaf children that's been put up for adoption has a lot of diffculities, inducing hearing people who simply don't just want a deaf child. So they end up spending time in foster families with people who shouldn't even had been foster parents.

Back in junior to high school, I spent time a lot over at thier foster homes too with the kids that I was friends with. and needless to say, I was competely shocked at how the majority of people who had been adopted or were in foster care lived in an flithy house….(and I don't just mean clothes lying around. I mean broken beer bottles, actual trash lying around). there was even illegal drugs and or objects that had to do with drug use just lying around in the open at times and the foster parents didn't even seem to care.
That's why a some of my former friends who had been finally adopted at the age of 15-17 years old has such a hard time staying clean and not commit any crimes. Because they were reared by foster parents who gave them the impression that such a way of life was “normal”.
I even reported the foster parents and told my parents all about it, but the social workers basically did nothing about it. They just came in the houses, looked around and talked with the parents a little bit… then they'd just leave them agian for months on end and the foster/adoptive parents wouldn't do anything to improve.

Having seen some of those things happen to people firsthand, I speak from expernice. and also I've read up on statics that clearly shows that the adoption proccess doesn't do much for the majority of kids out there, just not deaf kids.

Now, I'm not saying that adoption should be outlawed. Just needs to be overhauled so that people who are part of the process actually does thier job properly! It needs to be overhauled so that kids can go to people who are actually respectable and gives a shit about them.
and I've always said that if I wanted children, I'd rather adopt because I know that I could give some of those kids an good life. Then that'd be one more kid that would have a good life as opposed to an bad life.

To me the only one method of Adoption is truly effective–where the biological parents sits down with the adopting parents and talks to them, learns more about the adoptive parents and then agrees to give up thier children to the adoptive parents for whatever reasons.

At this way, the biological parents really knows that the children that they weren't ready to raise is really going to an good home and not just floating around in the foster care system until they get adopted.

The majority of them just basically dumps them off at childrens' homes or just at hosptials, not even bothering to put in an effort to find the children different parents who would truly care for and love the children.
I'm on hitatus while I redo one of my webcomics. Be sure to check it out when I'n done! :)
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:10AM
Hawk at 11:49PM, June 24, 2007
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Wow, it looks like you actually do have a lot of experience with this stuff. Thanks for making that all clear for me. Lately I've been concerned that a lot of the opinions in this debate forum have little factual evidence to back them up, but it's pretty clear you've seen a lot of this firsthand.

It's still kind of hard to imagine the abuse being so common, when you don't hear much about the bad experiences (or the good ones even, for that matter). Hearing some genuine personal experience really helps. I only know one story of foster care (and its subsequent adoption) firsthand, but it was a positive one.

I certainly won't disagree with you on the idea that the system for matching children with parents doesn't quite work. My uncle and aunt tried for years to be able to adopt a child after complications left my aunt unable to have children. Sadly, as qualified as they were the system never lined them up with a child. It's too bad, my uncle would've made a great dad. He more than proved it with how well he treated my little brothers.

I still have some issues with the idea that so many kids would've be better off never having been born, but I think that stems back to other issues completely. Thanks for explaining all that to me, Aurora Moon.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:46PM
Aurora Moon at 12:00AM, June 25, 2007
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no problem. I competely understand that some of my feelings and ideas on this subject might be a little too “hardcore”.

That's truly an shame about your Uncle… that's one of the reasons why I find the adoption system truly flawed too… the fact that they never get around to giving good people the kids to raise. or that they're very picky.

like: “Oh, you're a single white woman. I don't think you should raise this little black boy, even though you say you've fallen in love with him as an son. I just think an black boy should be with a black parent so that he can grow up to appericate his culture, and whatnot.”
I'm on hitatus while I redo one of my webcomics. Be sure to check it out when I'n done! :)
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:10AM
freefall_drift at 8:21AM, June 26, 2007
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Aurora Moon
like: “Oh, you're a single white woman. I don't think you should raise this little black boy, even though you say you've fallen in love with him as an son. I just think an black boy should be with a black parent so that he can grow up to appericate his culture, and whatnot.”
That is a nice dream, and when ever possible it should be done, HOWEVER, there are a lot of kids languishing in foster care. Black kids are less wanted than white. It's better to have a black kid in a caring white home than left in foster care. HOWEVER, not every white family would be a good fit for a black child. So on a case by case basis, kids should be placed with the best possible home.

We adopted a kid out of foster care, he's biracial, white and black. So we listen to Blue Grass and Country and Western for his white side and Motown and Hip Hop for his black side. There, culture done.
What is White Culture?
What is Black Culture?
- Ian
Freefall Drift - A sci fi space opera of a starship's mission of stopping the Endless Kings.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:30PM
Aereis at 6:12AM, June 27, 2007
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But if they're young, the culture aspect doesn't really matter. I suppose I wouldn't stick a teen aspiring to be a rapper with a white family who likes to golf and karoke
-_-' but when you're young, I don't think it will matter. Nothing is embedded from birth, and it's not like all people from a culture act the same either. I know black people who don't like rap, etc.
last edited on July 14, 2011 10:46AM
Aurora Moon at 11:07AM, June 27, 2007
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Aereis
But if they're young, the culture aspect doesn't really matter. I suppose I wouldn't stick a teen aspiring to be a rapper with a white family who likes to golf and karoke
-_-' but when you're young, I don't think it will matter. Nothing is embedded from birth, and it's not like all people from a culture act the same either. I know black people who don't like rap, etc.

exactly!! I happen to know this black dude who doesn't like rap, and hates wearing those sports clothing that's became very sterotypical of “black people clothing”. sometimes he got other black people going: “Dude, why are you dressing and acting like an white person?!”

But… here's the thing. He doesn't think that he acts or dresses like an white person, he's just being himself!
And as many has asked: “How do you act like an white person? or act like an black person? Much less how dress like them?”

As we all know, White people dress in many, many different styles… just not limited to preppy clothing and whatever. Goth, Emo, Jock, Yuppie, Lumberjack, Hawaiian, Scottish wear, French clothing…. need I go on? So there isn't just only one way an white person dresses….and the same holds true for black people.
That should also apply to how they act too as well.

That whole Race/Culturial thing is total crap when you think about it like that….Face it, deep down We're all THE SAME, in the sense that we all have different tastes in everything, regardless of what race we are.

So if some person at an adoption acgency found an person to be unsuitable for raising an spefic kid, they shouldn't give such an bullshit answer. They just should tell the truth like it is. Like this for example: “I'm not sure if an single white woman like you are really ready to adopt. There's too many things in your life I see that could change at an moment's notice that makes it unsuitable for an child.”
Now that's straight to the point… and no race card was brought up. That's how it should be.
I'm on hitatus while I redo one of my webcomics. Be sure to check it out when I'n done! :)
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:10AM
Memmy at 4:29PM, June 30, 2007
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I wanted to say something, but Aurora pretty much summed it up. heh. But I'll do my peice anyway.

Theres nothing wrong with the idea of adoption. Without it, who will be able to give childrens from abusive families a second chance? Who can give childrens who lost their families a second home? People have been doing it for a long time in diffrent ways. It is a good thing, unfortunatly… That brings to other issues already mentioned by few people.

The adoption system that we have today is… Well, very flawed. Theres plenty of horror stories about kids being abused or raped by their foster family, or wrongfully taken from their biological family, and social workers doing nada. If anyting, America is a fucked up place. Haha. Personally I cant say much more to add to that issues because I'm not well versed with the adoption system. I just dont see it as a reason to be completely against the adoption system.

Also, not all adoptions have horror stories to go with it. I come from mostly white family with diffrent religions and my cousin (my great-aunt's daughter) adopted three black brothers many years ago when they were young. They turned out great and everyone loves them. My other cousin adopted a baby boy when I was kid and now he's planning on to be a professional pianist.

People can make differences when they choose to. I know several good people who wants to adopt childrens and teenagers simply because they want to make a difference. Or people who choose to work with orphanes. Thumb ups to those people. :)
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:59PM
Aurora Moon at 10:16PM, June 30, 2007
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Memmy
People can make differences when they choose to. I know several good people who wants to adopt childrens and teenagers simply because they want to make a difference. Or people who choose to work with orphanes. Thumb ups to those people. :)

yep, I pretty much feel the same way. And it makes me smile whenever I hear of an adopted kid doing so well. Those same kids are truly blessed by luck/nature/god/whatever to have been found by such good people.

I just wish there was more people like that out there…. too many corrupt people exploiting the system.
I'm on hitatus while I redo one of my webcomics. Be sure to check it out when I'n done! :)
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:10AM
Evil_Snuffkin at 9:41AM, July 1, 2007
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Before we moved my sister had a close friend who was in foster care. Her foster parents loved to look after babies but once they got past the cute phase they stopped looking after them properly and were only given cheep second hand things. There was a older boy in the house who also used to hurt and abuse her often because she was left in the house alone at night with him. Unfortuantely if the system was managed properly these terrible thing would happen far less often.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:24PM

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