Debate and Discussion

America is watching the first amendment decay very slowly...
CorruptComics at 4:14PM, March 14, 2007
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And now we're slowly destroying it.

Hurray for democrats!
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:46AM
Rich at 4:15PM, March 14, 2007
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CorruptComics
People give the goverment too much credit in terms of power.

Or do we not give them enough credit? I can almost guarentee the gov't could get away with silencing people who's work they censored. How hard would it really be? Just send a windowless van by their house to grab them at night or as they're going for walk. Noone would know, and thus the gov't cencorship would continue.

Someone
Let's remember that after 9/11 people accepted the Patriot Act because they wanted to feel safer

I believe it was nazi Germany that started taking away rights and shit in the name of security before WWII. We're having the same thing done to us.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:07PM
CorruptComics at 4:49PM, March 14, 2007
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Someone
Or do we not give them enough credit? I can almost guarentee the gov't could get away with silencing people who's work they censored. How hard would it really be? Just send a windowless van by their house to grab them at night or as they're going for walk. Noone would know, and thus the gov't cencorship would continue.


You just go ahead and believe that.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:46AM
lothar at 5:02AM, March 15, 2007
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i agree with Rich, most the rest of you alls are too mesmerized by your ATHF type of BS to know whats realy going on , it's just like 1984 give the peasants their heaps of pornography and pop music and you're free to run wild with the laws and regulations that realy matter , the ones that skrew peoples lives and make corporations fat cash !!!!
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:45PM
reconjsh at 8:00AM, March 15, 2007
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What specifically is being taken away from us “discretely”?
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:02PM
CorruptComics at 8:10AM, March 15, 2007
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I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say you also don't know what is really going on. Though I'm sure you guys have lots of examples to share with us about poor artists being censored and writers being subjugated to goverment kidnappings, you just haven't told us about them yet.

I know people, for some god dammed reason, love to assume the goverment is some evil force, with an unrelenting reach into anything and everything on the planet. I've yet to hear ONE, just ONE, reason how and why our fist amendment is decaying away very slowly. Just some illogical conspiracy theory level warnings, no examples.


And lothar, have you even read 1984?
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:46AM
ccs1989 at 6:43PM, March 15, 2007
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CorruptComics is right in pointing out that you guys aren't citing examples. Without examples your ideas about the government sound like rambling conspiracy theories.

I think that the major way in which our First Amendment rights are being weakened relates to fear, which the Executive branch has been very good at using to their advantage. Fear has been used all throughout the Iraq War to justify the things that America has done. Before the war, Colin Powel stood up in the UN with a vial and said that inside it there was a chemical that could kill everyone in the room, and that it was being manufactured by the terrorists. Of course later he came out and said that he had no idea if that was true, but that he was just reading the lines the Administration had fed him.

Then you've got the endless security warnings, the “If you're not with us you're against us” speeches, the rhetoric that diplomacy will fail and that force is the only solution, and the coercing of the American public through bandwagon and scare tactics.

The Patriot Act is part of this because it provides the teeth to the fear. All the government needs is a slight inkling in order to search a person's home, not even specifying what they're looking for. Anyone can be deported by the Attorney General for doing non-violent things that might be associated with an organization that the government labels terrorist in nature.

By 2002, the government had already incarcenated 1,200 people secretly. No trials, nothing. So I don't see how you can say that the First Amendment isn't being trampled when this kind of stuff is going on. By now that number has risen dramatically.
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“If one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours.”
-Henry David Thoreau, Walden
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:38AM
lothar at 5:39AM, March 16, 2007
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Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

the fact that many of the things going on ar not technicaly “LAWS” should be noted , but also that the current administration does not much respect the laws of the unaited states should also be noted ! so there maty be effective “decay” of the 1st amendment without actual written laws on the books (yet)

1 - religion; hmm (2 hell with religion) but it seems to me Muslims have a lot less rights (illegal abduction and detainment) and that christians (especialy the extreem ones) have got there tentacles all over the place
2 - the press - effected mostly by the actions of the FCC in allowing major media corporations to eat up smaller outlets and border on monopoply in some area, those corps have their loyalties and the news is obviously slanted
3 - right of the people peaceably to assemble this is the big one i can think of ! i dont know how many of you are aware of the way they barricade protesters these , confining them to chainlink pens sometimes blocks away from the actual things they are protesting against , they call these areas “free speach zones” hmmmm ; i thought ALL of America was supposed to be a free speach zone !!!
4 - and petition the gov ? i'm not sure what this means, sending angry email to senetors ? Voting? ( out of curiousity ; how many people think the 2004 election was above the board ?)
in closing i'd like to say that the problems with the US go way beyond the first amendment, but as long as were on this subject —
the FIRST AMENDMENT is about more than how many F WORDS and PENIS'S you can cram into an episode of SOUTH PARK !!!! that shit is jus smoke and mirrors !!!!!!
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:45PM
Rich at 10:04AM, March 16, 2007
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lothar
the FIRST AMENDMENT is about more than how many F WORDS and PENIS'S you can cram into an episode of SOUTH PARK !!!! that shit is jus smoke and mirrors !!!!!!

That's what I said, but I get labelled a conspiracy theorist.


Someone
i thought ALL of America was supposed to be a free speach zone !!!

It isn't anymore. The people in charge (aka, the gov't) don't want everyone's free speech in their way, so they restrict it so they don't have to listen to it.

Don't believe me? Convince every American you know to write a letter to President Bush asking for withdrawal from Iraq. I guarentee you that he will see NONE of them! Go ahead, get your petitions ready! Get thousands of people on them. Send them to the gov't. THey'll never see it. Odds are it'll just get shredded during the security check.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:07PM
reconjsh at 11:20AM, March 16, 2007
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The first amendment doesn't guarentee absolute freedoms though. Throughout our entire 200+ history this has been the way the 1st amendment has been interpeted: as a guarentee of rights with implied limitations.

Certainly you've heard the old saying (which actually was stated as such): “Free speech would not protect a man falsely shouting fire in a theater.”
- Oliver Wendell Holmes of the U.S. Supreme Court; Schenck v. United States in 1919.

So clearly by this one statement, “free speech” has had some limitations for almost 90 years. This has been the tradition (and long time debate as well) in the Supreme Court since its creation.

A good guide for understanding the 1st ammendment as the Supreme Court has usually intrepeted it is to add at the end “… as long as it doesn't reasonably limit other people to the same rights.”

I'm not saying violations don't happen - of course they do - but our government and society checks and corrects itself constantly. Given time - just has always been the case - our 1st ammendment rights will be restored/returned. Take for example McCarthy and his quest to “rid America of the communist army”. If the government said you were a naughty commie… you were. Obviously, this ended. It's a great story of triumph over governmental oppression that has prompted some great movies. At the very least, spend 2 hours watching a rented movie to learn about it.

Here's one of my favorite examples. I experienced this FIRST HAND:
* Peacefully assemble: Do you/should you have the right to peacefully assemble directly next to a greiving mother of a dead soldier and tell her that her son “is going to hell for defending a country that protects fags”? The courts have said repepeatedly no. If you don't know about this… research Westboro Baptist Church. I witnessed it first hand at a funeral for a commrade about a year ago in Michigan. Sure, they were peaceful. But it didn't give them the right to do what they did. And every state they visit, that state makes it illegal to do so.

So maybe “losing rights” seems to be true through our limited scope of our lives, but it's clear (to me at least) that there hasn't been any reasonable, perminent subtraction of rights.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:02PM
ccs1989 at 12:48PM, March 16, 2007
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reconjsh
* Peacefully assemble: Do you/should you have the right to peacefully assemble directly next to a greiving mother of a dead soldier and tell her that her son “is going to hell for defending a country that protects fags”? The courts have said repepeatedly no. If you don't know about this… research Westboro Baptist Church. I witnessed it first hand at a funeral for a commrade about a year ago in Michigan. Sure, they were peaceful. But it didn't give them the right to do what they did. And every state they visit, that state makes it illegal to do so.

Wait, what? It's really difficult to believe these kind of people exist, even though I'm sure they do. I mean, they can't be liberal, because liberals are okay with homosexuals, but they can't be conservatives because conservatives “support the troops” and all that. So what are they? The Crazy party?

Things like that are difficult to gague. I mean, we outlaw those kind of demonstrations, but Neo-Nazis are still allowed to march. It's a very dubious situation.

But anyway I'm not going to make any additional statements until people start challenging the first post I made in this thread.
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“If one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours.”
-Henry David Thoreau, Walden
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:38AM
reconjsh at 1:29PM, March 16, 2007
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ccs1989
reconjsh
* Peacefully assemble: Do you/should you have the right to peacefully assemble directly next to a greiving mother of a dead soldier and tell her that her son “is going to hell for defending a country that protects fags”? The courts have said repepeatedly no. If you don't know about this… research Westboro Baptist Church. I witnessed it first hand at a funeral for a commrade about a year ago in Michigan. Sure, they were peaceful. But it didn't give them the right to do what they did. And every state they visit, that state makes it illegal to do so.

Wait, what? It's really difficult to believe these kind of people exist, even though I'm sure they do. I mean, they can't be liberal, because liberals are okay with homosexuals, but they can't be conservatives because conservatives “support the troops” and all that. So what are they? The Crazy party?

Things like that are difficult to gague. I mean, we outlaw those kind of demonstrations, but Neo-Nazis are still allowed to march. It's a very dubious situation.

But anyway I'm not going to make any additional statements until people start challenging the first post I made in this thread.


Westboro Baptist Church… look ‘em up. They’re f-ing coo-koo! But they're very real and highly publicized now. I'm sure subcultured has a youtube link ;)

my whole point was… these freedoms aren't absolute. As far as your first post goes… i gotta go grocery shopping so I'll get to it when i return ;)
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:02PM
CorruptComics at 1:33PM, March 16, 2007
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1 - religion; hmm (2 hell with religion) but it seems to me Muslims have a lot less rights (illegal abduction and detainment) and that christians (especialy the extreem ones) have got there tentacles all over the place

Illogical, opinionated, talk that has no bearing on this debate. No sources noted, vague observation unconnected to reality.

Someone
2 - the press - effected mostly by the actions of the FCC in allowing major media corporations to eat up smaller outlets and border on monopoply in some area, those corps have their loyalties and the news is obviously slanted

Lack of examples. Simple Liberal media vs. Right Wing media argument that is self destructive in that since both exist, neither has snuffed out the other.

Someone
3 - right of the people peaceably to assemble this is the big one i can think of ! i dont know how many of you are aware of the way they barricade protesters these , confining them to chainlink pens sometimes blocks away from the actual things they are protesting against , they call these areas “free speach zones” hmmmm ; i thought ALL of America was supposed to be a free speach zone !!!

Again, lack of example. Just because you have the right to protest something, does no mean you have the right to interfere with it.

Someone
in closing i'd like to say that the problems with the US go way beyond the first amendment, but as long as were on this subject —
the FIRST AMENDMENT is about more than how many F WORDS and PENIS'S you can cram into an episode of SOUTH PARK !!!! that shit is jus smoke and mirrors !!!!!!

Yes it is. And you have once again not cited anything that would be seen as a danger to it.


Someone
Don't believe me? Convince every American you know to write a letter to President Bush asking for withdrawal from Iraq. I guarentee you that he will see NONE of them! Go ahead, get your petitions ready! Get thousands of people on them. Send them to the gov't. THey'll never see it. Odds are it'll just get shredded during the security check.

There are 300,000,000 people in the United States. The President is considered the highest possible position of power in the US. The US is considered to be one of, if not the, most powerful nation in the entire world.

Is you try to waste his time with your uneducated opinions your letters DESERVE to shredded. Bush ain't fucking Santa Claus. You don't give the President of the United States a wish list, you don't expect him to read it if you do, and you damn well don't use that as a logical argument point.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:46AM
ccs1989 at 8:14PM, March 16, 2007
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reconjsh
Westboro Baptist Church… look ‘em up. They’re f-ing coo-koo! But they're very real and highly publicized now. I'm sure subcultured has a youtube link ;)

Wow…that's…damn. I checked the Wiki article on these guys…it's crazy. These guys are a half-notch away from Nazis.
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“If one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours.”
-Henry David Thoreau, Walden
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:38AM
reconjsh at 8:26PM, March 16, 2007
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ccs1989
reconjsh
Westboro Baptist Church… look ‘em up. They’re f-ing coo-koo! But they're very real and highly publicized now. I'm sure subcultured has a youtube link ;)

Wow…that's…damn. I checked the Wiki article on these guys…it's crazy. These guys are a half-notch away from Nazis.

Ya, one of my friend's funerals was tainted by their presence. They should have the right to protest… but grievers SHOULD have the right to not be right next to this hate as well. Typically the cities limit where they are allowed to protest. You can't ban a protest, but legally you can say where… generally justified for sake of protection and/or flow of traffic.

Anyways, after I told my parents about this, they joined the “Patriot Guard”. The PG is a motorcycle group whose sole function is to follow this church and interupt their protests with counter protests… trying to honor our fallen soldiers… and they only show up at request of the family of the dead soldier. The funeral I was at, they held up a black tarp that blocked that church and their hate from view of the funeral. The church responded with chant and song (we hate fags… god hates fags… your son is going to hell… thanks god for 9/11… etc etc.) So the PG lined up their motorcycles in front of them and reved their engines to drown out their sound.

It was all so surreal that it's hard to remember if it really happened… or if I had some sort of weird dream.

It's tough to defend their right to be so hateful and evil… but they do have that right. :(
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:02PM
CorruptComics at 3:17AM, March 17, 2007
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The Westboro Baptist Church is is just 50 people that are insane. Their actions should never be taken seriously. They had planed on protesting the slaughter of those 5 young Amish girls a while back, saying they too were burning in hell. But luckily, a radio show host (sorry, can't recall the name) knew that all they really want is attention and offered them two uncensored hours on his radio show to do as they wish as long as they stayed away from the funeral.

The Patriot Guard is a fine organizational, a damn fine organizational. Someday when this “church” is no more, I see them going on and doing even greater things.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:46AM
Rich at 7:01PM, March 17, 2007
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CorruptComics
Is you try to waste his time with your uneducated opinions your letters DESERVE to shredded. Bush ain't fucking Santa Claus. You don't give the President of the United States a wish list, you don't expect him to read it if you do, and you damn well don't use that as a logical argument point.

Because clearly we are all uneducated and stupid cattle that must obey our government overlords without question and most certainly we do not deserve to even be hear by the person in charge…
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:07PM
lothar at 5:04AM, March 18, 2007
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CorruptComics
The Patriot Guard is a fine organizational, a damn fine organizational. Someday when this “church” is no more, I see them going on and doing even greater things.

Sarcasm?
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:45PM
Phantom Penguin at 3:51PM, March 18, 2007
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Oh god don't get me started with those Westboro SOBs. I remember my buddie wouldn't be buried until after we all came back from Iraq (it was in his will) so everyone could be there.

So you've got around 130 guys in dress uniform paying their last respects…..and these people show up. With their posters, and their chanting. I was about to snap, We all were. The Patriot Guard showed up a little late, but they showed up. Holding about 13 foot tall american flags and reeving their engines to shut up the Westboro people. I'm grateful to those men, because if it wasn't for them showing up every one of those people would have been beaten to death. And I didn't need that on my soul.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:42PM
ozoneocean at 11:41PM, March 18, 2007
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Looks like the Westbro people walk a tricky line between a right to free speech and a direct incitement to violence.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:26PM
Ronson at 2:19PM, March 19, 2007
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Some free speech cases going on or recently decided:

BONG HITS 4 JESUS - as yet undecided.

People ejected from a public building where the president was speaking, solely because they had an anti-Bush bumper sticker on their car

I don't think the First Amendment is being rapidly diminished. I think it's being chipped away slowly over time - usually for “national security” or “child protection” reasons.

At one point, the PATRIOT ACT defined terrorism as “any state or federal misdemeanor or felony dangerous to life committed to change government policy” … broadly interpreted, it could have meant that someone blocking a door(say, in a protest in front of a building) could conceivably be blocking a fire exit and could be endangering life and could therefore be labelled a terrorist.

But that didn't happen, and the law has been rewritten to very specific violent acts. Score one for the good guys.

The First Amendment is pretty secure. Where we should be concerned is with privacy rights, because they are almost gone. The government now needs only a hint of suspicion to tap the phones of Americans, review their finances, search their homes or offices without the citizen's knowledge, and can seize library records as well as books someone has bought.

It's not Orwellian, yet. But in this case, the “slippery slope” could be a real thing.

One issue - abortion - which is so electrically charged on both sides is actually being fought by some (not all, some folks are just misguided) in an effort to remove privacy from an individual. Once the government gains the right to the internal workings of someone's body, privacy truly becomes a moot issue.

There have been citizens of this country who were picked up and shipped over to Gitmo. I am not certain if any are still there without charges, but the government certainly did not work toward a speedy trial, and still maintains that it doesn't have to reveal all of its evidence on the grounds of national security.

We need to be vigilant not to lose too much in this quest for security. Because we cannot trust those responsible for our security to just always do the right thing. If there is no oversight, there will be corruption and exploitation.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:10PM
CorruptComics at 6:20PM, March 19, 2007
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lothar
CorruptComics
The Patriot Guard is a fine organizational, a damn fine organizational. Someday when this “church” is no more, I see them going on and doing even greater things.

Sarcasm?

no
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:46AM
rengori at 8:17PM, March 19, 2007
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Do you mean the Patriot Guard or the church? I think Lothar thought you were talking about the church.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:05PM
CorruptComics at 3:55PM, March 20, 2007
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How could anyone make that mistake?
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:46AM

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