Debate and Discussion

Are human beings EVIL by nature?
kyupol at 4:35PM, Nov. 16, 2007
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Given our track record of always fighting one another because of race, religion, social class, land, power, etc.

Given our track record of being abusive towards other humans and animals.

One must say we ARE EVIL creatures.


But another thing I've noticed. Is the war veterans (and people who survived a war) just dont like to remember their war experiences. They want to forget about how they killed another man and other trauma about war horrors. Its consistent.

- I've spoken to a WW2 veteran who once flew bombing raids over Germany. All he said about the war is ‘losing friends and getting shot at’. He didnt want to discuss any further.

- My grandma lived through WW2 by going with Filipino guerillas. They kept moving from place to place trying to escape the Japanese. She told me that one time she was up in the mountains looking at the sea and she could see the Japanese warships. She told me some stories of captured Japanese troops who were also beaten and kept in small cages and burned with cigarettes. As well as losing some of her friends and of Japanese troops bayonetting babies in front of their mothers. As she was speaking, there was always reluctance and sadness and fear in her eyes. Its the stuff she doesnt wanna talk about.

- I've met this Afghan man who was a former mujahideen against the Soviets in his 20s. He escaped Afghanistan because he didnt like the Taliban. Again he doesnt wanna talk about the details of being a mujahideen.

- I have an officemate who escaped Cambodia during the reign of the Khmer Rouge. She only gave vague details about smugglers. No other details about it.

- I've seen some newspaper articles about Canadian war veterans who just wanna forget about that war. In some instances, these veterans wanna meet their German counterparts and talk in a friendly way.


The consistency: As if it is in human nature not to kill. Because if its in human nature to be brutal killers, then violence should not bother them at all.

As if killing and being violent is LEARNED behavior
.

This observation also contradicts what I've been taught in Catholic school that human beings are inclined to do evil because of Adam and Eve's sin. And that one should pray to the Holy Spirit for the strength to resist the evil inclination.



Are we evil by nature? Discuss.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 1:25PM
Aurora Moon at 5:13PM, Nov. 16, 2007
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I don't think we're evil by nature at all.

And consider this: What if Adam and Eve NEVER sinned at all, they just thought they did? What if that whole Apple crap was just a big test by god to see if Adam and Eve had raised up above being just simple animals that did everything mindlessly as they were told to.
And once Adam and Eve had proved themselves to be more than just animals but people who could be fully aware of their own actions, and choose to do things even if they were told not to do a certain thing. (aka eating the apples).
then God decides that they have proven themselves to be creatures who has risen up above “simple animals” just by the simple fact that they USED the free will that they were given. They passed God's test to live on earth! So he then boots out the couple into the wild, cold world of earth to survive on their own.
Adam and eve sees this as them doing something wrong when they actually did something RIGHT. But God never told them that they actually passed his test because he figured that eventually the humans would figure it out. so Adam and Eve then tells their children about their “shame”, and so mankind moves on to believe that Adam and Eve “sinned” when they never did.

That makes sense, doesn't it? ;) and it works well too from a metaphorical viewpoint.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 11:10AM
Mister Mxyzptlk at 5:48PM, Nov. 16, 2007
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kyupol
Are we evil by nature? Discuss.

Clothahump, the great turtle wizard said, “In my first 100 years I learned that people are not born good. In the next 100 years I learned that they are not born evil. In the last 60 years I have learned that people are a product of their environments.”

I agree with Clothahump even though I haven't his years.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 2:04PM
bobhhh at 6:44PM, Nov. 16, 2007
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you can counter the intsances of many evil deeds with humanitarian ones. Just wait until a natural disaster happens and watch people throw themselves selflessly into the malestrom to save total strangers. just go to clinics and soup kitchens and watch people tend to and feed the needy even though at times it can be disheartening. In fact I guarantee you that if tommorrow a major earthquake hit either North Korea or Iran, We would not hesitate a second to bust out the aid and comfort.

My point is that we are capable of both great beauty and charity as well as malice and violence. I don't believe we are predisposed genetically to either.
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CharleyHorse at 9:02PM, Nov. 16, 2007
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Evil is an artificial value concept. This does not mean that evil does not exist, just that it is not an inherent part of nature. I'll return to that in a moment.

Humans are not inherently evil or good. They are animals that happen to have an unusually evolved brain that makes them all a little more than a tad bit crazy. They are a pattern of instincts overlaid by a patina of cultural training and exposure to collective knowledge, wisdom, and outright falsehoods.

Humans spend their entire lives choosing between obeying instinct and learned responses, and do so very nearly every moment of their lives.

Some humans are better animals than sapients. Some are nearly born to become saints. The ones that embrace evil - or even merely dabble in evil from time to time - are generally and genuinely insane to some extent because they cannot strike a balance between instinct and learned response.

To return to the issue of evil itself, all aspects of human culture, society, wisdom, knowledge, compassion, and the concept of evil itself are artificial in nature in that not one aspect of them are to be found in nature itself.

Animals fight and animals lust, animals even display genuine affection towards their mate or litter mates, but they do not love and they do not hate. Well, possibly some animals can learn an aspect or two of hatred, I'll grant you that, but the rest of my analysis stands.

So humans are very intelligent animals that have developed an artificial system through which they cope with this gift or curse of great intelligence and the results of possessing it thereof.

So it goes.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:40AM
horseboy at 9:43PM, Nov. 16, 2007
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Oh boy, the duality of human nature.

I am entirely too sober for this conversation.

The “fear of what's different” is hard wired into the lizard brain. In the natural world, that which doesn't look like you is there to eat you. Hell, sometimes it'll eat you even if it does look like you. It's an instinct in every animal.

The higher brain is capable of empathizing. To be able to look at something and say, “That could be me”. That's why we help others.
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Never seek for happiness, it will merely allude the seeker. Never strive for knowledge, it is beyond man's scope. Never think, for in though lies all the ills of mankind. The wise man, like the rat, the crocodile, the fly, merely fulfills his natural function.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:50PM
DAJB at 2:07AM, Nov. 17, 2007
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We had a similar discussion to this when there was a thread on capital punishment current here at DD.

Looked at collectively, as a whole species, I don't believe it's true to say that evil is just part of human nature (i.e. all our natures), despite what we may do in extreme circumstances (e.g. war).

As individuals, however, I do believe that some people are just genetically wired to be evil and would be so, whatever their environment/circumstances. That was pretty much a minority view last time this did the rounds here at DD but I stand by it. Some people are thoroughly evil just as some people are thoroughly good. The rest of us usually hover somewhere in the middle!
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mlai at 4:53AM, Nov. 17, 2007
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Watch a mother who just lost her litter and then tell me animals don't feel anything. Aggression vs hate… affection vs love… those are arbitrary human concepts of categorization.

Evil and good are also arbitrary human concepts. Humans feel emotion and act based on rationalization. The results are categorized as good or evil depending on the frame of reference.

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Mister Mxyzptlk at 6:34AM, Nov. 17, 2007
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CharleyHorse
Evil is an artificial value concept. This does not mean that evil does not exist, just that it is not an inherent part of nature.

Evil is also a relative concept. I was trying to explain this to my son the other day. Take the most “evil” event in the 20th century, the Holocaust. There are people today who still claim that it was not an evil thing. An entire country allowed it to happen, a world ignored it and hoped it would go away. Who were the evil folks in that case? Was FDR evil for turning a ship of escaped Jews back to Germany? Were all the Allied governments evil for keeping the evidence under wraps? Were they right in thinking that if their people found out what was happening that they would support the genocide as anti-semitism was rampant at that time? Like I said, evil is relative.

CharleyHorse
They are animals that happen to have an unusually evolved brain that makes them all a little more than a tad bit crazy.

You talkin' ‘bout that eviloution stuff… That ain’t allowed in Kansas.

But then… we aren't in Kansas anyhow.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 2:04PM
Prototaph at 11:37AM, Nov. 17, 2007
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Evil, despite anyones contrary remarks following this post, is a matter of a societal opinion which is then transferred onto the upbringing of that societies youth. We believe something is evil or a behavior is evil because we are taught that something is evil where as the antithesis is not.

Ridiculous example: On the planet Gorloe, the people who live there, once a Gorloian month have Hang-a-Short-Person Day. This is participated by all the Gorloians with laughter and abandon. Little to no thought is given to the thoughts of the short person they were about to hang. And so, if we Earth people were to visit the planet Gorloe on their monthly holiday and witness such an event, we would be shocked and horrified at the ‘evil’ of it. But the Gorloians think it's all in good fun and tradition and the like. They would say to us, “Who are you to judge us on our ways? Why, the fact you have body hair reeks of the taint of evil! Get them!” And then we'd be dead for having evil body hair. So sad.

Real example: Throughout man's history, the human race has partaken in acts that, by today's standards, would seem horrendous if done today. Sacrificing to the gods has gone on for centuries, yet now, in our era of enlightened religion and compassion for the animal kingdom, we have decided, or should I say it has been decided for us, that the gods/God does not want that kind of thing anymore. Slavery is a popular evil which has permeated societies throughout the world and that still continues to this day. This all stems from the ‘strong persecuting the weak’ idea. But then we suddenly decide, or ‘wake up’ to the idea, that it is wrong and evil and we won't stand for it anymore. Women being inferior to men. There's another good one. There are places in the world were this is acceptable to both sexes and think we Americans are the evil ones. Who's right?

All of these ‘ideas’ come from the society we live within. We are taught to believe one way because that's what is acceptable in THIS society, not ALL societies. There is no such thing as absolute evil, just as there is no absolute good. It is up to us as individuals to decide what is truly evil and what is truly good. Find your shades of gray.
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Tantz Aerine at 11:59AM, Nov. 17, 2007
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Every person born into this life is born positive and attuned towards the good. Human beings are not evil by nature, but they can sure be corrupted into becoming so by those in their immediate environment.

Humans have done dramatic deeds on both extreme ends of the spectrum, and one has to see that for ever evil force there is a positive one opposing it. And I have seen in action that the impact of the positive deeds is far greater than that of negative ones on the personal and greater level.

So no. I think human beings are GOOD by nature. :)


 
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mlai at 2:47PM, Nov. 17, 2007
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Mister Mxyzptlk
You talkin' ‘bout that eviloution stuff… That ain’t allowed in Kansas.
But then… we aren't in Kansas anyhow.
Are you saying you give credence to the theory of evolution?

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Aurora Moon at 2:55PM, Nov. 17, 2007
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Watch a mother who just lost her litter and then tell me animals don't feel anything. Aggression vs hate… affection vs love… those are arbitrary human concepts of categorization.

and not only that, but animals have been already caught on tape showing compassion for something else that was outside thier own speicies! There's been so many times when for unexplained reasons, wild animals have been saving human lives and or other different animal speicies when they weren't even trained to. There would be no good reasons for any wild animal to even save a human life… it wouldn't befinit them in any way, yet they would do that anyway!

I remember seeing an video where a little boy who was just growing out of the toddler stage ( around 5-6 years old, maybe)… accidently fell into the gorrilla pit at a zoo. and he fell a long way down, so he was bleeding. He was out of it for a moment too as seeing he had been hit hard on the head.
This large male gorilla comes over, and keeps an protective watch over the little boy while keeping the other gorillas that would harm the boy away. at one point he's even seen stroking the little boy's back, and looking up at the crowds as to wait for somebody to come pick up the little boy. When the little boy wakes up and starts crying because of the pain, The gorillas are then disturbed by the noise.
So this large male herds all of the gorillas inside into this animal shelter, and it's then the zookeepers are able to come and get the boy out.

Now I ask you… what reason would a large male gorilla feel the need to feel so protective about a human boy, to the point where he wouldn't even let any other gorillas near the boy when he's hurt?

wouldn't you say that's a very human trait, to see something small and injured, and then say: “Oh, it's so helpless and hurt. I need to help it and protect it from danger.”
But then again… maybe it's not a unique human trait after all… it's there in ALL living things that has a brain. Yes, an animal's brain may not be as “well-delvoped”, but if they can feel pain and every other negative that a human can feel…
Then they can feel all the postive things that a human can feel, inducing compassion even if thier feelings of compassions they may not even understand well themselves. They might not understand the reason why they felt the need to help or save a human/other animals from danger for no good reason, but it's THERE.
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TitanOne at 4:52PM, Nov. 17, 2007
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I think human nature is neither evil nor good.

Humans are often self-sacrificing in times of emergency.

Humans are also capable of turning a blind eye to the suffering of the poor.

Humans are almost always evil in their abuse of authority. It is a rare government that does not invade other countries, imprison people for victimless crimes, drop bombs on innocents or attempt to micromanage other human beings.

All humans are prejudiced toward one group or the other.

Organized crime will always fill a bureaucratic void beneath “Law and Order”.


The more I think of it, the scale balances seem to slant toward Evil, and not Good.
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:30PM
Mister Mxyzptlk at 5:41PM, Nov. 17, 2007
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mlai
Are you saying you give credence to the theory of evolution?

If by credence you mean “mental acceptance as true or real” then yes, I accept the theory of evolution as true or real. It makes the most sense from all the theories offered.

However, if by credence you mean “a small table where the bread and wine rest before consecration” then I have no idea what you are talking about.
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crazyninny at 6:58PM, Nov. 17, 2007
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My personal belife.

There is a person in all of us, that is evil. But, the evil person is not us, we are who we are, the evil person is someone else. Only people who allow the evil person to become them are evil.
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Aurora Moon at 8:08PM, Nov. 17, 2007
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crazyninny
My personal belife.

There is a person in all of us, that is evil. But, the evil person is not us, we are who we are, the evil person is someone else. Only people who allow the evil person to become them are evil.

ummm… that doesn't make sense. That almost awfully sounds like a lot like the whole “Demons controlling humans” that some christains believe in.

Sorry, but I don't think such a belief is good. Because it's like basically like giving those “bad people” the power to deny any personal responsblity.

“Oh, it wasn't really me who did such awful things! it was something else who/which was controlling me and causing me to commit those evil deeds!! I'm innocent, really… I'm actually a good person. Never mind that I basically committed henious actions while being fully aware of what was going on and being able to control my own actions unlike a possessed person.”

I think others hit the nail on the head…. Espeically in Charleyhorse's post.
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cartoonprofessor at 2:59AM, Nov. 18, 2007
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kyupol
Are we evil by nature? Discuss.

Clothahump, the great turtle wizard said, “In my first 100 years I learned that people are not born good. In the next 100 years I learned that they are not born evil. In the last 60 years I have learned that people are a product of their environments.”

This is why armed forces abuse the crap out of their soldiers during training. The military even calls it the ‘Dehumanising’ Process.
Humans do not naturally kill other humans… they have to be first brainwashed and dehumanised, then trained heavily and agressively to hate the enemy and kill them.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:36AM
Poke Alster at 5:22AM, Nov. 18, 2007
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No were not just some people take it too far
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bobhhh at 11:52AM, Nov. 18, 2007
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Killing, while not civilized, isn't inherently evil. Sometimes its instictive, as in self defense. Animals do it all the time, and we don't assign evilness to them.
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kyupol at 12:22PM, Nov. 18, 2007
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This is why armed forces abuse the crap out of their soldiers during training. The military even calls it the ‘Dehumanising’ Process.

I remember my days during compulsory army training (philippines).

One time, the officers made us run across the field while they surround us and chase after us then hit us repetitively with pistol belts. :(

Or if you are showing weakness during pushups, doesnt matter if you are recovering from an illness, they will give you shit for it. One time, the officer threw the M-1 garrand rifle (they still use that for training cadets) at the back of my head. There was slight bleeding but otherwise I was ok.

Or what about spitting in a glass with water, then the whole platoon must drink that water mixed with their saliva?

One time, an officer also ranted about how much he hates Chinese, Communists and Muslims. Then he was talking in such a way that equates them with less than animals and how he would gladly torture them if he gets his hands on one of them. And then the ranting about ‘what is a war crime?’ Nobody really cares about ‘war crimes’ and in a ‘war it is not a crime to kill’. :(


That is why. ALL ARMIES in the world are brutal places. I do not believe even Canadian troops (Canada is known worldwide to be a peaceful country ) who say that they do not get the shit beaten out of them in the barracks or humiliated one way or another. lol if I know, they could be sent to prison for telling the civilians about it.

I had this martial arts instructor who was ex-military (Canada). Why is he the most hardcore trainer? He trains us as if he's preparing us to fight Mike Tyson or something. If he wasnt exposed to hardcore training back in his military days, why does he train us hardcore?



Anyway thats why I decided to stay away from military stuff. When I came to Canada, a few people encouraged me to join the army because of the pay and the free education and since I had some (even if its just very little training compared to a ‘real soldier’) military background anyway. :(

Just wanted to share this anyway even if it doesnt really much relate to the topic.

And in spite of all that ‘brainwashing’ I don't think I have that aggression factor in me. And yes I think I would be an incompetent soldier no matter what. Because its either me or the enemy right? lol so I guess it would be me who would die. Because of a lack of aggression.
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bobhhh at 12:37PM, Nov. 18, 2007
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kyupol
Anyway thats why I decided to stay away from military stuff. When I came to Canada, a few people encouraged me to join the army because of the pay and the free education and since I had some (even if its just very little training compared to a ‘real soldier’) military background anyway. :(

Just wanted to share this anyway even if it doesnt really much relate to the topic.

And in spite of all that ‘brainwashing’ I don't think I have that aggression factor in me. And yes I think I would be an incompetent soldier no matter what. Because its either me or the enemy right? lol so I guess it would be me who would die. Because of a lack of aggression.

Thanks for sharing, I for one have always thought that the break down the man to make the soldier approach is antiquated especially in the modern age. It might have had relevance when you needed unquestioning cannon fodder, to run like beserkers into pitched battle, but these days technology allows for a less meatgrinder approach to combat. No less heinos mind you, just not quite the level of random carnage as sending troops into rows of gattling guns to be mowed down. See WW1.
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Phantom Penguin at 1:03PM, Nov. 18, 2007
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There really is no good or evil is all preception.

On the brutal army thing. There really was no true ‘dehumanizing’ thing that has been done to me in training. There is the ‘breakdown’ which teaches you that you must listen to your leaders (drill sargents in this case) but nothing like beatings or drinking peoples spit. Theres always ‘smoke sessions’ they use to teach you your place. They make you do push ups or whatever other physical exercise they can think of until your in alot of pain or until you just can't keep doing them.

At least in the US army that is. I know in other armies (look up russian army hazing for the extremes) you get the ever living shit kicked out on you.

And the breakdown process is still needed. Because you will be told to do some crap that every part of your body will tell you ‘don’t do that you will DIE!' But it needs to be done. Kicking in a door when you know there is a machine gun on the other side for instance, or driving down a road fully knowing that you will be blown the hell up. No one off the street will think ‘thats cool I can do that’. Its drilled into you for a reason so you will do without thinking.
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TitanOne at 6:35PM, Nov. 18, 2007
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bobhhh
Killing, while not civilized, isn't inherently evil. Sometimes its instictive, as in self defense. Animals do it all the time, and we don't assign evilness to them.

I agree.

Oppression is evil, though, and it seems to be hard-wired into human nature.
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:30PM
crazyninny at 6:38PM, Nov. 18, 2007
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crazyninny
My personal belife.

There is a person in all of us, that is evil. But, the evil person is not us, we are who we are, the evil person is someone else. Only people who allow the evil person to become them are evil.

ummm… that doesn't make sense. That almost awfully sounds like a lot like the whole “Demons controlling humans” that some christains believe in.

Sorry, but I don't think such a belief is good. Because it's like basically like giving those “bad people” the power to deny any personal responsblity.

“Oh, it wasn't really me who did such awful things! it was something else who/which was controlling me and causing me to commit those evil deeds!! I'm innocent, really… I'm actually a good person. Never mind that I basically committed henious actions while being fully aware of what was going on and being able to control my own actions unlike a possessed person.”

I think others hit the nail on the head…. Espeically in Charleyhorse's post.

To put it simple, we are who we make our selfs. Like, you if you want to be a trucker, you become a trucker. You want to bully people to make them your friends, you bully people to be your friends.
Ka pish? Ka pish.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:48AM
mlai at 6:57PM, Nov. 18, 2007
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I don't think that's how you spell kapish. Also, it's a Spanish word isn't it? Kapish definitely isn't Spanish spelling.

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last edited on July 14, 2011 2:06PM
crazyninny at 7:19PM, Nov. 18, 2007
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mlai
I don't think that's how you spell kapish. Also, it's a Spanish word isn't it? Kapish definitely isn't Spanish spelling.

I don't know, my Dad just says it when ever he's explaining stuff or trying to get facts into you. I don't really care how its spelled, I just like saying it myself.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:48AM
mlai at 9:01PM, Nov. 18, 2007
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But knowing is half the battle.

FIGHT current chapter: Filling In The Gaps
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bobhhh at 10:28PM, Nov. 18, 2007
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mlai
But knowing is half the battle.

It's Italian slang. Having lived in NYC finally pays off!!
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last edited on July 14, 2011 11:29AM
DAJB at 1:02AM, Nov. 19, 2007
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Must be Italian because it's used at least 37 times in every mafia film ever made. I think it's the law that every mafia character must use it at least once every third sentence.

Oh, and I think it's spelt “capisce”. But I don't speak Italian, I just think I've seen it written down somewhere (probably when I read the Godfather but that was years ago, so I could be wrong).
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:03PM

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