I actually own an Astrology book with those personalities. Only my book broke down traits by specific birthdays. It was somewhat accurate about me on my birth date.

mlai
But modern astrology is not TRUE astrology; they don't account for the 13th constellation, and they fudge things so everything would be regular and easily comprehensible for the masses, “Astrology For Idiots.”

That's the difference between a theory which is wrong but coherent, and one which is wrong and incoherent. Thus, a real difference, but one I don't care much about ;-)

When people can say things like "He is clearly an Aquarian! Those are all the traits of a water sign." most of us will have at least some idea what is meant by that.
In no way is Astrology just “a theory which is wrong” (apologies to Abt_Nihil), or some out-dated mad belief that has no application to real life, rather it is an accepted part of modern cultural discourse.

Actual connections between people and heavenly bodies are irrelevant- It's like religion, pop culture etc, the importance lies in it's role in the relationships between people, it's meaning to society and communication.

ozoneocean
When people can say things like "He is clearly an Aquarian! Those are all the traits of a water sign."

and other stuff

Aquarius – the water bearer is an air sign.

Astrology for many years has been classified as an occultist art, meaning both information about the study and what's required for a practitioner to be considered skilled are “hidden”. Modern culture has great difficulty accepting “hidden”. After all, we're pretty smart - if we can't see it, it's because it's not there, right?

I suspect that some individuals are more comfortable accepting a concept as a realistic concept if it incorporates strict and unvariable definitions and flawlessly consistent results. If that's true, I strongly recommend that they do not take up gardening. Nor astrology.

Like many other things, astrology has evolved over millenia. The skies change, the perceptions change. None of that means it hocus bunkus, as many like to claim, and it certainly is a commonality among many cultures and classes, even if only as an entertainment.

ayesinback
Aquarius – the water bearer is an air sign.

Well apologies to ayesinback as well then! :)

Ayes, I don't have to believe that astrology is a “real” science/art with the power to predict my future and lend insight into my life and personality, because I accept that you and others believe it and that it's real for you.

I can't stand raw tomatoes, but others really love them. We're different.

Intellectually I know astrology is scientifically baseless and has been determined to be so in various experiments.

-I know that a good astrologer can read a personality with great expertise and tell the person what they want to hear and what they think about themselves. It's the same with Tarot Cards and other types of “Cold readings”

-I also know that you can write a generalized description of a personality and everyone who reads it will see themselves in it.

-All of this has nothing to do with planets in houses and that effect is entirely random. Astrologers are not consistent. Each will draw your horoscope with great difference using all the same general descriptions of personality that could fit anyone.

I've read too much James Randi, Martin Gardner and I have a subscription to Skeptical Inquirer so of course I'm entirely biased. But like all Sagitarrians I have to get on my soapbox and prostelytize in a highly irreverent fashion.

Scorpios are out to take over the universe, Geminis are two-faced and Aquarians are flakes ranging from Space Cadets to Admirals of Star Fleet. Capricorns are depressed pessimists and Pisces are flakes incapable of making decisions. (My favorite astrology book is The Bad News Horoscope. ;)

ozoneocean
Ayes, I don't have to believe that astrology is a “real” science/art with the power to predict my future and lend insight into my life and personality, because I accept that you and others believe it and that it's real for you.

I can't stand raw tomatoes, but others really love them. We're different.

Oz: no apologies needed! I don't feel like I've been attacked for an instant. And I'm feeling a little awkward that I've set myself up for the Astrology: It's REAL!! Do it! advocacy award, which I don't want and don't merit!!

I do believe one's birth chart can provide self-insight, but (not simply a sun sign, or an ascendant sign, or moon — a piece here and there. I think that insight can inform the way one makes choices, but I do not believe that a birth chart or astrology can predict the future.

Our choices can pave a probable course, but predicting the future? nope, don't know of anything that can do that.

What gets my goat is that some people can have strong and blanket opinions because they've read other opinions and haven't checked it out directly for themselves.

I'm guessing that you discovered that you don't like raw tomatoes because at one time you tasted one. You didn't decide you don't like them because you read about how acidic they taste (or whatever). You actively engaged.

Now I don't recommend actively engaging in everything to determine pros/cons. I haven't ever tried cocaine because I heard/read that it's addictive and I tend to have an addictive personality. I love roller coasters and the buzz from going Really Fast. I'd probably love speed car racing - but I've heard/read that it's incredibly dangerous.

But when danger is minimal (or non-existent) and folks still rely on 2nd opinion rather than direct experience - hard for me to hold respect for their opinion. Not an attractive trait, but might explain my reaction to this thread.

I really respect that crocty (after only minimal bullying) took up my challenge.

I also like that he posted what he disagreed with, because as much as people accept “what they want to hear”, they also have the same ability to reject what they don't want to hear.

@bravo: I knew that about you.

edit:

and hey - about those radio scripts people ;)

bravo1102
Pisces are flakes incapable of making decisions

I've decided you're banned.

No, no, maybe not. Well, but, I don't know…

ozoneocean
When people can say things like "He is clearly an Aquarian! Those are all the traits of a water sign." most of us will have at least some idea what is meant by that.
In no way is Astrology just “a theory which is wrong” (apologies to Abt_Nihil), or some out-dated mad belief that has no application to real life, rather it is an accepted part of modern cultural discourse.

Actual connections between people and heavenly bodies are irrelevant- It's like religion, pop culture etc, the importance lies in it's role in the relationships between people, it's meaning to society and communication.

Well, yes and no.
I never said that astrology has no meaning. Of course it carries some sort of information which is beyond simple right/wrong classification. Its categories (like “he's clearly an aquarian!” ) can obviously be “translated” into meaningful statements about someone's personality traits. It's just that it doesn't validate astrology as a theory, because a vital part of the theory is that the personality traits are in some way “caused” by a specific stellar constellation. That is clearly wrong. The fact that astrology has meaning beyond its theoretical merits, and that it is culturally significant, is completely independent from that. I would never deny that it says something. I just mean to say that as a theory, I completely reject it - just as I reject religion as a theory.

Just like skoolmunkee said: If you're simply treating it as a fun diversion, then it's completely okay. But there are enough people around who treat its claims akin to scientific claims (especially those who make money off it). On that note:

ayesinback
I suspect that some individuals are more comfortable accepting a concept as a realistic concept if it incorporates strict and unvariable definitions and flawlessly consistent results. If that's true, I strongly recommend that they do not take up gardening. Nor astrology.

There are a lot of sciences which make “weak” predictions and thus give “weak” explanations. That's because only the basic sciences (say, at the level of physics) yield strict (or probabilistic) laws. Most higher level sciences which describe complex structures (going up the ladder: cells, individuals, groups) have laws too, but they're not comparable with the strict natural laws. (For instance, compare the laws of physics with those of biology, psychology, economics, game theory etc.). Still, this doesn't make any science less scientific. If gardening yields laws (i.e. if there is a science of gardening, which is a conjecture on my part, but I'd readily believe it), then it's completely different from astrology: Astrology quite simply isn't a science. It has nothing even remotely resembling laws. At best, what passes as an astrological law is a pretty outlandish conjecture. The problem isn't that it has such a complex ontology (like psychology or sociology do) - it has no scientific standard at all (similar to religion). Thus, Oz is right to explain it as a cultural phenomenon, but that doesn't change the fact that there is a theoretical (non-cultural) distinction to be made between viable theories and unscientific ones. And obviously, I'm only arguing against astrology as a theory.

Bravo
Pisces are flakes incapable of making decisions

That's not true, wait… no, maybe it is, perhaps, I don't know, I can't decide, all I know is that makes me sad.

I'm going to be a typical piscean and be caught up in an emotional hurrican and cry about nothing. :( Then I'll forgive you beause I have a natural ability to sympathise with others and forgive everyone.

My wife, the control-freak about-to-take-over-the-world Scorpio's best friend is a Pisces and as a Saggie I like Pisces because we Saggies can't make up our minds until the last possible minute when we go totally on gut impulse.

Why? Because Saggies can see and argue all sides of any issue simultaneously which makes our mental processes extremely labor intensive. Hence we often seem to be either brain dead, distracted or passionate preachers because we really aren't trying to convince anyone else; we're trying desperately to convince ourselves. ;)

Addendum: I got that from cognitive therapy and my birth chart. ;)

wether there's some to astrology or not, i never took it to seriously and i dont see why ya should. it can be fun to check it out and see how hit or miss it is, but why tell me what im gonna think for the day or how my personality's gonna be? specially if it's not always bang on. i know what i think and how i act. maby im missing a point here. but it can be neat to check out some times, that's the extent of the value it has for me.

but i did go n check it out and i gotta say, im not so sure the virgo description fits me, i do like my chinese sign a whole lot though, the Ox which, at least from the rndown i got fits like a glove:

THE WOOD OX 192S AND 1985

Understanding and fair, these are the least unyielding of the Oxen and the most apt to change and accept new ideas. A more liberal attitude gives them the ability to appreciate the value of being a part of a team, and other members of the team respect the high principles of the Wood Ox. They are particularly self-confident giving them an air of unspoken authority. This characteristic means that Wood Oxen are often chosen as leaders or spokespeople. They also have a shorter fuse than other Ox people, and are more likely to be outspoken or to stand up in a crowd to be heard. These Oxen are quite devoted to those they love and make strong and affectionate friends and relations.

(haha, “ox people” i gotta remember that for putrid meat.)

but once again, once it gets more in depth there are inaccuracies. but a fun little bit of introspection.

Which subcategory of ox people live in mazes and eat adventurers?

The awesome one.

he dont take no BULLshit…
HAW!
HAW HAW HAW HAW!

I think it's junk science…..carnival psychiatry……you get just enough generalized points that would probably apply to a lot of people but, oh, a Pisces might say “Y'know, that's ME!!”

Yeah, but it's also probably 1/8 of the New York City population with various astrological signs.

Reading somebody? Some people have an uncanny knack of sizing people up on the spot….get their astrological sign and add what pertains to the sign and BAM, suddenly it's “credible”.

I'm an empiracal data, hard science kinda guy, myself!