Debate and Discussion

Blind, unwavering support no matter what- e.g. conservatives and liberals.
ozoneocean at 8:41AM, May 31, 2010
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This is an interesting one that you see as an aspect of many internet debates, especially when it's political:

People will support their ideal and all group together behind their political camp, even in the face of justified criticism, even to support something that is morally and sometimes legally wrong, just because they feel the need to show solidarity against the opposition.
Fair enough you might say, it's natural, but it's very telling when in doing that they actively betray their own ideals and beliefs, just so they can score off against their detractors.

But that sounds pretty abstract, here's a real example:
The comedian Bill Maher made a remark about US president Obama as part of a TV comedy monologue. It was taken out of context (as these things are), by a right wing conservative poster on an internet site and used as an example of a “liberal” (Maher) being racist, with that point that other liberals will just dismiss it because Maher is liberal, but if it was someone like O'rRely they'd jump all over him.
And that's exactly what many did. Even though the remark was out of context it was indeed racist. Most people identifying with the “liberal” camp simply dismissed it as a complete non-issue or argued that it doesn't matter if Maher says something racist since the right spews tons of racism and that's what we should focus on.



It seems to me that that sort of hypocrisy and failure to live up to your own ideals really disqualifies you to represent them (not Maher, but the people who supported him). What do you think?

We ALL do it constantly, I know. I can't imagine myself NOT blindly apologising for some deficiency just because I'm unthinkingly loyal to some institution or ideal. I've probably done it with DD many times, people do it with Apple all the time, people do it for their gender (Men are the best, no, Women are!), for their country (America the land of the Free, Australia is Right! Israel against All Odds!)…

I think we have to try and recognise when we're doing that, listen to what the “other” side has to say when they have a specific criticism to make and then examine it to see weather they really have a point- and in the process, make ourselves better, stronger.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:36PM
imshard at 4:58PM, May 31, 2010
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I've got to say, blind loyalty is a major pet peeve of mine. I take the time to research an issue and if I haven't yet, I decline to comment. I always gave my professors headaches as a result of my inability to pick an overall ideology. :D

Honestly I think Abe and Mark put it best:

“I believe it is an established maxim in morals that he who makes an assertion without knowing whether it is true or false, is guilty of falsehood; and the accidental truth of the assertion, does not justify or excuse him.”
-Abraham Lincoln

“In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination, from authorities who have not themselves examined the questions at issue but have taken them at second-hand from other non-examiners, whose opinions about them were not worth a brass farthing.”
- Autobiography of Mark Twain
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last edited on July 14, 2011 12:59PM
Product Placement at 6:03PM, May 31, 2010
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This reaches pretty much into every single form of debate that exists, related to religion or politics.

I suppose I'd be called a liberal by American conservatives since I live in country that allows (“gasp” ) social services and I guess I in return am pretty biased to everything that those types of people have to say. Then again, I was granted a pretty valuable insight in how a conservative mindset works when I started studying currency trading. You see, in the western world, change is bad. It upsets the market. Some are able to take advantage of it while others end up loosing money. In a world like that, you'd prefer that things stay the same.

While it may be a very simplified approach to their views, I like to believe that I learned something from that realization.

One question comes to mind: In a case of (hope I won't derail the topic) Science vs Religion, would you guys say that both sides are equally blinded by their devotion to their cause?
Those were my two cents.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 2:52PM
kyupol at 7:17PM, May 31, 2010
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The reason for blind, unwavering support is because of the high emotional investment that people have for a particular political ideology or religion.

A couple things that amaze me…

1) Christian anti-New World Order. These guys love to call out everything about the New World Order (police state, wars of aggression, global taxes, moral degeneracy, etc). They love to scream about freedom, liberty, ra ra ra!!! Meanwhile, they find no problem restricting the liberty of homosexuals. Meanwhile they believe that psychic abilities are the work of Satan while they're just TOOLS just like guns. Huh? what happened to the pro-gun argument about “people kill people and not guns”?

2) Liberal feminists / pro gay / fake environmentalists, etc. They love to scream about freedom and liberty and equality for all. Meanwhile, they seem to have no problem with political correctness, affirmative action, and global carbon taxes. Don't you understand that those things are tyrannical?!?


And then… I'd be accused of having blind unwavering support for Alex Jones. Hey. I diagree with some of his antics. You know, things like:
- Hyperventilating on air and screaming like a lunatic. ALOT.
- Putting up a clown mask or a ski mask then going on air just to make fun of the police state and Obama.
- Shouting down callers and engaging in childishness on air. One time he was like… “Your mom didnt give you breastmilk!!! She gave you fluoridated water mixed in cow's milk laced with hundreds of chemicals!!! Thats why you're so dumb and couldnt even understand what I'm saying!!! I'm smart! You're dumb! Shut up!”


Anyway, critical thinking is your best friend. :)
NOW UPDATING!!!
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:27PM
DAJB at 6:59AM, June 1, 2010
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Yeah, this is all too common. Another aspect of it is being against something (no matter how much sense it makes) just because someone from an opposing faction has championed it.

But that's politics for ya!
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:04PM
Genejoke at 7:29AM, June 1, 2010
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Someone
One question comes to mind: In a case of (hope I won't derail the topic) Science vs Religion, would you guys say that both sides are equally blinded by their devotion to their cause?

I don't know about in practice but in theory I would say that religion is more likely to cause blind devotion.

It pretty much demands it if you think about it. Where as science is about research and searching for truth, or using facts to explain what is around us and failing that coming up with as solid theory as possible, science by its nature is never blind devotion as science is about looking for answer.

Now that goes for scientists but the average joe may accept the logic presented by science and accept that blindly.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:33PM
Genejoke at 7:47AM, June 1, 2010
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As for the political side…

I do not follow any political party, I voted conservative this time around as it was the best option. Last time around I couldn't bring myself to vote and prior to that I voted labour.

I have my own views and I vote for the party that has A chance to win and B proposes to do something that I believe needs doing.

I don't think I cam capable of completely blindly following anything. I will give things a chance and can be very tolerant but at the end of the day I am too cynical.

For example I refuse to buy an ipod, or pretty much any apple product bar maybe a mac.
An Ipod is a bloody mp3/mp4 player that has been branded, I can spend an eighth of the amount and get a quality product that does exactly the same thing.

I have a lot of reservations about apple actually, I use a pc which cost me less than half the average mac and it is more powerful than any mac I could hope to afford. And the amount I hear about iphones being shut down by apple when people try to customise them. Not that microsoft are much better but hey ho, at least I can customise my hardware.

When it comes to arts and entertainment I follow those I like from one project to another to see if they are good in other ways
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:33PM
Freegurt at 3:51PM, June 1, 2010
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Which is probably why I don't expressly tell people I'm republican or democrat or any other group really. It's mainly because I share a lot of beliefs of both sides, I just happen to have more beliefs on one side than the other.

I try to be as open-minded as I can when it comes to arguments or discussions, but there are times when the bashing gets too much and I just flip. It's like, ‘How dare you not share the same ideas as I do! YOU’RE DUMB! And I hate you and you're brainwashed!' (and yes, I actually had a discussion with someone who actually told me that I was brainwashed and a sheep because I didn't believe what he did).

There does come a time, though when I will support what I believe to the death. Because I can't stand people telling me that they're being open-minded, but tell me that me and everyone like me are evil or stupid or something. I just love hypocrites.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:31PM
Orin J Master at 4:51PM, June 2, 2010
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they don't mean or even stand for anything, really. they're nebulous, ill-defined concepts. but people like having a “side” to root for, so they have sides. and fight over which one's right as opposed to figuring out what the best decision actually is.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:22PM
bravo1102 at 3:43AM, June 3, 2010
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And there's a lot of cognitive dissonance going around. They believe what they believe and damn the evidence. As for the quotations from Abe and Mark pity we have to go back 120 years to find someone who gets what is going on now.

Okay everybody could you just ask why you believe what you believe and bother to learn something!
“The unexamined life is not worth living.”

Talk about going back into history to find someone who gets it.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:33AM
fantasmagoric at 11:26PM, June 12, 2010
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The way I see it, pitting conservatives verses liberals is a worn out game, especially for those who feel no desire to affiliate with or vote for either side. I feel like more and more people are becoming apathetic to the voting system (ie. less voter turn out (I'm speaking of Canada, but I feel like this probably applies elsewhere).

The sad thing is that a lot of voting seems to be about which politician has the flashiest gimmicks and how you label yourself politically as a voter.

I had a friend who only voted liberal and joined a liberal campaign party because her parents were very conservative. She learned a lot in the process, but it was kind of silly, considering all she really wanted to do was piss off her parents.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:25PM
Genejoke at 4:32AM, June 13, 2010
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People vote for many a stupid reason. yes there is blind devotion to certain sides, people that weigh up options and vote and there are those who vote for the best TV personality, there are a hell of a lot of those out there.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:33PM
ozoneocean at 7:14AM, June 13, 2010
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bravo1102
And there's a lot of cognitive dissonance going around. They believe what they believe and damn the evidence. As for the quotations from Abe and Mark pity we have to go back 120 years to find someone who gets what is going on now.

Okay everybody could you just ask why you believe what you believe and bother to learn something!
“The unexamined life is not worth living.”
Yeah, that's sort of it…

I suppose I mean “Taking Sides” rather than having a real discussion about something on the merits of the issue.

Like when the Israeli commandos killed those 10 activists on the aid ships. I looked at the message boards on a few news sites and you have people saying “Israel should just lift the blockade on the Palestinians”, but more chilling were the pro-Israelis trying to justify those killings, saying stuff about the activists attempting to repel the boarders using bats and knives etc… this horrible immoral whitewashing and trying to make the situation into some contest between equals or “he said she said” thing, blindly going into defence mode as if the reporting of those killings was a direct attack on Israel and not the horrible, needless death of some activists doing an aid run- even if that was for publicity.

The point is that those idiots, by taking sides like that instead of looking at the actual human cost of that horrible situation were only doing more harm to the cause of Israel, because the last thing it needs is more support for uncaring, unilateral, brutal behaviour. -Especially to its image.

It's not wrong to support a cause or a side, but it is wrong to support it in everything it does. I mean, I love Australia, but I don't support my country when it does bad things. I suppose that might be the difference between patriotism and true Fascism.
Bit of a dodgey distinction, really, but that “we are right!!” regardless attitude is definitely fascist.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:36PM
El Cid at 5:38PM, June 13, 2010
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ozoneocean
I suppose I mean “Taking Sides” rather than having a real discussion about something on the merits of the issue.

…followed by a one-sided tirade
Somehow I knew this was another one of your threads where you try to call people you disagree with idiots without just coming out and calling them idiots… though to your credit you did actually get around to it in that last post, so… good for you!

I have no idea what was said in that Other Forum which you’re talking about, but it doesn’t sound like people “blindly taking sides” to me; just people expressing a viewpoint which you don’t like. Remember, different people will look at the same situation and take away from it different lessons, judge it by different criteria. To you, all that matters is that people were killed, and so you automatically condemn the killers. To others, what matters is that the protesters were looking for trouble and tried to break through a military blockade. Who the actors were and what side you’re on shouldn't really matter; some people will find merit in either or both of those positions. Not saying that there wasn’t any partisanship going on behind the scenes; there usually is on that issue, but somehow I suspect you’re painting with a broad brush here. And that’s usually the case when people scream partisanship; usually they're just copping out rather than trying to appreciate other people’s perspectives. I can fully understand either side of that debate you’re talking about. I have my opinions about who’s right, but that doesn’t mean I think the other side are a bunch of idiots. They may just have different values than me.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:20PM
ozoneocean at 5:53PM, June 13, 2010
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El Cid
…followed by a one-sided tirade

Somehow I knew this was another one of your threads where you try to call people you disagree with idiots without just coming out and calling them idiots…
No, you miss the point! I don't say they're idiots for supporting Israel, I say they're idiots for playing down the human side of things in favour of their grand cause. Particularly because many of those people were ostensibly moderate.

It was a good EXAMPLE (one of the few I've offered) of people saying “My country is right!” rather than saying, “I love my country, but yes, it is pretty bad those people were killed”.

You see?
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:36PM
Product Placement at 6:05PM, June 13, 2010
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In the case of the Israeli attack on the aid ship, it's possible to look at it from multiple sides, like most other cases. However, in most ways, you can easily see that Israel was the villain of that tale, whether they liked it or not.

The main goal of the organizers of that aid run were to undermine Israeli influence, even though the concerns of the majority of the people on board were towards the Palestinian people. Did the Israel overreact when they stormed an unarmed civilian ship and kill innocent people? I don't even need to answer that question. However is it possible that some people might have instigated these events, knowing how Israel would react, in order to paint the worst possible image on Israel for the world to see? Yeah, you can pretty much guaranty it.

But you know what? It's Israel's main fault. Pulling such an overwhelming and aggressive move on your opponents and then offer no signs that you're willing to try and settle your differences will only aggravate things in the long run.

If we compare it with 20th century Europe, we had the first world war which was a product of nations pent up grudges against other nations around them which ended up with Germany taking the ultimate blame for everything. The Germans were so royally screwed over by everyone else that it's no wonder they became the embodiment of all that was evil in the second world war. Being mistreated brings out the worst in you.

Israel will never find peace if they keep acting like dicks. They will bring out the worst in their neighbors, who are being reminded every day why they believe that Israel is an evil nemesis that has to be stopped.
Those were my two cents.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 2:52PM
Joneko at 9:52PM, June 13, 2010
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I can't help but see it, in part, as a result of groupthink. Not that all parties and all sides use groupthink – but I find that those to the more extreme ends, for example, the party-line voters, or those who attempt to create party-line voters, utilize it very thoroughly. Unless someone expresses interest I won't go into it in depth (don't want to bore anyone) except to say that it generally discourages examining other options or modes of thought, or else, it encourages viewing them in such a way as to render them invalid.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:10PM
bravo1102 at 11:05PM, June 13, 2010
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ozoneocean
El Cid
…followed by a one-sided tirade

Somehow I knew this was another one of your threads where you try to call people you disagree with idiots without just coming out and calling them idiots…
No, you miss the point! I don't say they're idiots for supporting Israel, I say they're idiots for playing down the human side of things in favour of their grand cause. Particularly because many of those people were ostensibly moderate.

It was a good EXAMPLE (one of the few I've offered) of people saying “My country is right!” rather than saying, “I love my country, but yes, it is pretty bad those people were killed”.

You see?

For the simple minded twit like myself: my cause right or wrong. If the cause you support does things that you don't like is it still worth supporting?

All sides make mistakes and have done stupid things. However, people have a lot of trouble admitting that they're ever wrong or anything they think is ever wrong. Therefore, nothing anything they support can be wrong! My beliefs are never wrong, you are wrong for criticizing my beliefs!

Examine what you believe and why you hold it to be true. You are allowed to be wrong and maybe, just maybe the other guy could be right. There is as much chance both of you are wrong as there is either of you are right.

If someone believes differently from me I try to find out why they believe what they do. After all as Franklin observed, “In the first person all rebellions are legal as in our rebellion; it is only in the third person, their rebellion, that it becomes illegal.”
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:33AM
ozoneocean at 12:00AM, June 14, 2010
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Product Placement
However, in most ways, you can easily see that Israel was the villain of that tale, whether they liked it or not

You could, but I'm not talking about villains, hero, bad guys, or good guys. The bad thing isn't Israel there, the bad thing is the deaths that resulted and also people trying to justify them- weather that's because they think Israel's right whatever the reason, or weather the dead are martyrs for a just cause.

Joneko
I can't help but see it, in part, as a result of groupthink. Not that all parties and all sides use groupthink – but I find that those to the more extreme ends, for example, the party-line voters, or those who attempt to create party-line voters, utilize it very thoroughly. Unless someone expresses interest I won't go into it in depth (don't want to bore anyone) except to say that it generally discourages examining other options or modes of thought, or else, it encourages viewing them in such a way as to render them invalid.

That is it precisely! Exactly! I couldn't have said it better myself. :)

bravo1102
For the simple minded twit like myself: my cause right or wrong. If the cause you support does things that you don't like is it still worth supporting?

No. You can still be right in supporting your cause, even when it does bad things (not the same as just “things you don't like” ). What's important is to acknowledge that it does do problematic things, and hopefully help to modify that.

bravo1102
If someone believes differently from me I try to find out why they believe what they do. After all as Franklin observed, “In the first person all rebellions are legal as in our rebellion; it is only in the third person, their rebellion, that it becomes illegal.”

Of course, but again, not precisely what I'm on about.
Try a hypothetical-
You love your car. The breaks have a problem, a passenger notices this, but you refuse to acknowledge it because you love your car so much- "there can't be a problem with my car, it's perfect, you HEAR me? Perfect! The breaks fine, you're just too fat! Get out of my car!"

Whereas a better way to do things would be to see if there is a problem, acknowledge it if there is and then fix it. And in doing so you improve your car, making it better.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:36PM
BffSatan at 10:03AM, June 14, 2010
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ozoneocean
You love your car. The breaks have a problem, a passenger notices this, but you refuse to acknowledge it because you love your car so much- "there can't be a problem with my car, it's perfect, you HEAR me? Perfect! The breaks fine, you're just too fat! Get out of my car!"
People DO tend to do that when they're arguing about internet browsers or video game consoles. Is it sad that unwavering support descends all the way from important political policy to minor differences in opinion?
I think some people just find it difficult to formulate their own ideas so they go with the opinion they think they should have, even if it is clearly wrong.
I guess it raises questions on the nature of what an opinion is.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:21AM
bravo1102 at 12:11AM, June 15, 2010
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I'm merely saying that you should question what you believe to see is wrong so that you can solve the problems. That's the process of after-action analysis and problem solving. What was done, was it messed up and can we fix it. I know exactly what you are saying you just can't see through my murky prose. ;)

To use your example you acknowledge that your car can be broken and find the problem (that bad shock that shifted so badly when fatso got into the car)

The two things are identical. Our revolution is good and legal and can do no wrong and yours isn't. Some are too busy sitting in the car defending it's qualities to walk around it, kick the tires and find that bad shock.

By the way we all know what opinions are. They're like assholes; we all have them and they all stink. Any other evaluation and you're reading too much into a simple process of how humans assimilate information. We're a very simple species and we keep trying to make things far more complicated than they need to be.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:33AM

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