Debate and Discussion

Bonkers Britain
Faliat at 8:08AM, Nov. 8, 2010
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Here's an idea to fix the national debt. Cut from both the private and public sectors to that they have to let staff go, then force the unemployed into unpaid work that used to be PAID work for prisoners otherwise they'll get nothing whatsoever…

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010/nov/07/unemployed-unpaid-work-lose-benefits

Then they won't have money to spend, putting less cash into the economy. Which makes the government decide to make more cuts with the excuse it's somehow going to fix it… The cycle continues!

I'd like to hear more opinions about this as well as what other countries are doing to recover from the global economic crisis.

All I'll add to the above right now is that I'm seeing protests on TV in other countries like France, Germany and Spain.
We do almost nothing over a six year rise in retirement age, the removal of the univerity fee cap making the price per term ridiculously high and THIS looming on the horizon above other things.

Note which of these places had strict regimes take them over in the last century.

Call that jumped up metal rod a knife?
Watch mine go straight through a kevlar table, and if it dunt do the same to a certain gaixan's skull in my immediate vicinity after, I GET A F*****G REFUND! BUKKO, AH?!

- Rekkiy (NerveWire)
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:25PM
El Cid at 12:04PM, Nov. 8, 2010
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Forced unpaid labor? Don't they have a word for that?…

My biggest concern would be that if there's work that these people can be doing for free, then somebody ought to be getting paid to do it, if unemployment is such a problem. Structurally part of the problem could be that your minimum wage and other compensation laws are so strict that it's too expensive to hire anybody, in which case now would be a good time to reconsider them. Better to have some people earning less-than-ideal wages than masses of unemployed on the government dole.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:20PM
El Cid at 6:40PM, Nov. 8, 2010
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Okay… soooo… um… I guess I didn't actually read the article before responding. It sounds like they're mostly making these people do “busy work,” like charity and crap like that which nobody gets paid for anyway. That's a little better because they're not likely to take away anybody's jobs. I can at least say that I agree with the sentiment; welfare shouldn't be a “free ride.”

I think the underlying idea behind the program is flawed, however. I don't believe most people who end up staying chronically on welfare do so because they're lazy; they do it because it's the best of imperfect options. In many cases, these people can't earn as much on the job market as they do on welfare. If they get a job, they end up with less money and they no longer qualify for benefits, so in a perverse way welfare “forces” them to remain unemployed. It's the most logical choice for them. Paying less in benefits across the board would at least reduce the opportunity cost of finding employment, which would be killing two birds with one stone, but that's not going to solve all the problems either.

In the part of the States where I live, we really haven't experienced much of the recession, so it's been business as usual for the most part. Sorry, no really good ideas to offer.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:20PM
Faliat at 11:33AM, Nov. 9, 2010
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The problem is that the government has already announced plans to turn jobs that USED to be paid into volunteer work. Such as museum and library employees.
“The Big Society” they call it. I think this might be part of it, too. But I haven't really heard it confirmed yet. I think it's because it's so ludicrous that more people will predict it to destroy society further rather than bring us all together to fix the proken part from the LAST time we were in this mess.

Also, like I said before, some of the work that people are being told to do when this happens is stuff that is currently being done by prisoners for a small wage in order to re/introduce them into the idea of doing honest work for a living. Now that's being taken away from them and is now going towards the unemployed.
Also, there are plans for said people to have “minders” to make sure that they are doing their “volunteer” work. And as far as I've heard… THOSE people will be paid wages!

Feel free to facepalm…

Call that jumped up metal rod a knife?
Watch mine go straight through a kevlar table, and if it dunt do the same to a certain gaixan's skull in my immediate vicinity after, I GET A F*****G REFUND! BUKKO, AH?!

- Rekkiy (NerveWire)
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:25PM
DAJB at 1:05AM, Nov. 11, 2010
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Although there are people who are genuinely unable to find work (especially in the current economic climate) but it's a very blinkered view to pretend that there aren't also thousands who simply choose not to work because they've worked out how to play the system and can receive more by staying home on benefits. If this system addresses that issue (and, being a cynic, I admit I have my suspicions that it will sadly hit genuine claimants rather than the real scroungers!) then it's a good thing.

It's misleading to say they won't be paid though. Although there will be no wage for the work itself, my understanding is that people assigned to those tasks will continue to get their unemployment benefit (or Jobseeker's Allowance) while doing that “unpaid” work. That simply means they are being paid to do something, rather than nothing.

last edited on July 14, 2011 12:04PM
Genejoke at 2:34AM, Nov. 11, 2010
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Also bear in mind that most of the media seem to be labour supporters and are playing up the downsides.

Personally I think it is a mostly good idea, sure there will be flaws and issues but when isn't there. Also genuine claimers will NOT loose out as they will get on with the work and it may even lead to opportunities to find paying work.

The coalition government are getting a lot of negative press but the fact is they are doing a lot of things that need doing regardless of whether it makes them popular.

Now all they need to do is cut the prison budget by about 90% and have inmates living off bread and water in cells with no bedding or playstations.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:33PM
Faliat at 6:17AM, Nov. 11, 2010
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DAJB
Although there are people who are genuinely unable to find work (especially in the current economic climate) but it's a very blinkered view to pretend that there aren't also thousands who simply choose not to work because they've worked out how to play the system and can receive more by staying home on benefits.
A lot of people are staying home on benefits here because nobody on the lower end of the social spectrum is getting decent pay or doing honest work. Whatever a person can earn as a binman, nurse or bus driver, hairdressers, nail technicians and the unemployed are all better off.

Sure, there's people that play the system. I knew a tonne of them in my home town. Hell, there it's considered a career. Sit at home, pop out a kid each year, throw them outside every day since they get in the way of the TV…

But you'll get folks doing that anywhere anyway. And we would probably have less of that culture if jobs paid well enough for it to be worth the effort to go. My average ticket price for my bus home from college rose by 50p recently. And that's already made a massive difference to family finances. That's including the student discount.

DAJB
It's misleading to say they won't be paid though. Although there will be no wage for the work itself, my understanding is that people assigned to those tasks will continue to get their unemployment benefit (or Jobseeker's Allowance) while doing that “unpaid” work. That simply means they are being paid to do something, rather than nothing.

At the cost of the taxpayer instead of an employer…
If I paid taxes, I'd rather they went towards the hospitals that are now stopping cataract and knee operations to counter government cuts.

Here's a quiz, what can't you do or find harder to do if you are going blind or unable to walk?

Genejoke
Also bear in mind that most of the media seem to be labour supporters and are playing up the downsides.
Isn't the BBC supposed to be impartial?

Genejoke
Personally I think it is a mostly good idea, sure there will be flaws and issues but when isn't there. Also genuine claimers will NOT loose out as they will get on with the work and it may even lead to opportunities to find paying work.
Genuine claimers are the ones that actually need it.

When I was first unemployed in 2008 before the economic crisis, I was trying to find my first job. Everything available at the job centre was too advanced and the ones that weren't I was overqualified for and they were STILL looking for people with experience in janitorial work.
That is what the majority of new claimants are still going through now. Young people trying to find jobs are being turned away at the details page. And the pass rate for Standard Grades and A levels is increasing all the time.

Genejoke
The coalition government are getting a lot of negative press but the fact is they are doing a lot of things that need doing regardless of whether it makes them popular.
What, Cutting everything when the best thing to do in an economic crisis is spend? Doing godawful things to communities in the name of bringing us all together?Constantly saying it was the fault of the last government when it was a WORLDWIDE economic crisis and then neglecting to correct the same error in the regulations of banks? Destroying the trust of the Liberal Democrats both in the eyes of the public and their own party members by going back on their own policies about education?

Genejoke
Now all they need to do is cut the prison budget by about 90% and have inmates living off bread and water in cells with no bedding or playstations.
Knowing what they've done before, they'd probably cut that budget by sacking 90% of the security staff…

Call that jumped up metal rod a knife?
Watch mine go straight through a kevlar table, and if it dunt do the same to a certain gaixan's skull in my immediate vicinity after, I GET A F*****G REFUND! BUKKO, AH?!

- Rekkiy (NerveWire)
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:25PM
Genejoke at 11:19AM, Nov. 11, 2010
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Someone
What, Cutting everything when the best thing to do in an economic crisis is spend? Doing godawful things to communities in the name of bringing us all together?Constantly saying it was the fault of the last government when it was a WORLDWIDE economic crisis and then neglecting to correct the same error in the regulations of banks? Destroying the trust of the Liberal Democrats both in the eyes of the public and their own party members by going back on their own policies about education?

If the labour government had been sensible towards the end the country would be in far better shape, the problem is they started off great but kept riding the wave as if they didn't see the economic down turn coming. Also the whole spend to get out of an economic crisis… you need something to spend first.
Also remember the lib dems are the lesser partners in it, they have to sacrifice things in order to push through other parts of their manifesto, but yeah the education thing was a bad move. The bank thing, well they have far too much power over the government so I doubt it would be much different regardless who is in power.

Someone
Isn't the BBC supposed to be impartial?

The BBC are pro labour and it has caused a stir fairly recently.

Someone
Constantly saying it was the fault of the last government when it was a WORLDWIDE economic crisis and then neglecting to correct the same error in the regulations of banks?

Considering how good the economy was britain could have been in far better shape now. Also a number of the things that the current government are being blamed for are contractual obligations left from the old government. Now don't get me wrong I am not a tory supporter but towards the end labour blew it big time.

Someone
What, Cutting everything when the best thing to do in an economic crisis is spend

First you need to have something to spend.

The idea(of the job seekers working thing)is to get people off the dole and into work, they may have to spend a little to get it started but if it works that is more people working and paying taxes, thus more coming in and a lower welfare bill.

I was going to write a lot more but distraction says otherwise.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:33PM
ozoneocean at 5:33AM, Nov. 12, 2010
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People who use the term “Broken Britain” repeatedly deserve death by having their mouth attached to a sewer pipe.
Seriously, every time I heard some wanker utter that phrase I wanted to break their face…



I don't think the BBC is pro labour. They reamed Blair extremely hard towards the end and continually gave Brown a very hard time. I think the BBC does its best to be impartial and attack any ruling party equally for any perceived failings.
I think what the BBC genuinely dislikes is the idealogical hostility the Tories seem to have toward it as a government funded institution and the continued threats to cut funding, downsize and damage the corporation -which would be a terrible crime of global cultural proportions. The BBC is one of the greatest media institutions in the world at this time, not just for news, but for all facets of pop-culture and the arts. It's a shining model for the rest of the world to follow and those idiots want to chip away and ruin it.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:37PM
DAJB at 7:07AM, Nov. 12, 2010
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ozoneocean
I don't think the BBC is pro labour. I think the BBC does its best to be impartial and attack any ruling party equally for any perceived failings.
This is probably true. I've noticed over the years that, whichever party is in power, they always claim the BBC is supporting the opposition!

The Tories are naturally suspicious of the BBC because, being run by “arty-farty” media types, it obviously must have left wing sympathies. At the same time, Labour is wary of the BBC because, being part of the “establishment”, it is obviously going to be against any kind of social reform. On balance, I tend to think that, if the BBC can manage to upset both parties, it must be unbiased!

Well, you know … usually!
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:04PM
Genejoke at 7:26AM, Nov. 12, 2010
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Heh, britain isn't broken, just f***** up.

The BBC is generally good but they have shown a lot of bias in recent months and have been slapped on the wrist over it. It probably isn't corporation wide though but all it takes is a few mouth pieces to sound off to make them look bad.

I agree it would be a shame for the BBC to be broken down, same with the NHS but that is already a mess…
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:33PM
Genejoke at 7:29AM, Nov. 12, 2010
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The plus side though… at least we know that the BBC isn't some government propaganda machine like north koreas one channel.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:33PM
Faliat at 6:23PM, Nov. 12, 2010
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The thing that pisses me off about “Broken Britain” is the fact that the people referring to it as that are usually the people that broke it.

And besides, Britain ain't broke. It got smashed a few decades back after getting drop kicked by Maggie and got glued back together. You could still see the cracks, but it was a pretty decent job considering.

Now some crazy tyke is running at it again with a comically sized squeaky hammer because some of the pieces were put in with pritt stick when the people in charge of the restoration ran out of superglue.

Call that jumped up metal rod a knife?
Watch mine go straight through a kevlar table, and if it dunt do the same to a certain gaixan's skull in my immediate vicinity after, I GET A F*****G REFUND! BUKKO, AH?!

- Rekkiy (NerveWire)
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:25PM
imshard at 7:03PM, Nov. 12, 2010
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… Wait … they have work to give people … that are unemployed and on the dole … and the solution is to keep them on the dole by giving them jobs?

Sorry but why not just “hire” them as temps and actually let them collect a wage?
This is the exact opposite of getting people jobs and off welfare. In fact it could drive people to get on welfare to bypass hiring rules. This does nothing to lower unemployment numbers, or really even cut spending once you factor in hidden costs.

Its like they want to trick people into getting jobs but still pretend they're unemployed. Or burning a forest so you can have a televised tree planting. Completely backwards in concept no matter how you dress it up.
To me this smacks of an intent different than the public messaging.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 12:59PM
Faliat at 4:25AM, Nov. 14, 2010
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Yeah, 1984 is thirty years late. Lol.

Call that jumped up metal rod a knife?
Watch mine go straight through a kevlar table, and if it dunt do the same to a certain gaixan's skull in my immediate vicinity after, I GET A F*****G REFUND! BUKKO, AH?!

- Rekkiy (NerveWire)
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:25PM
ozoneocean at 5:44AM, Nov. 14, 2010
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Faliat
The thing that pisses me off about “Broken Britain” is the fact that the people referring to it as that are usually the people that broke it.
The problem for me is that it's empty, annoying sloganising.

Besides, it's all based on bullshit.
Nothing is essentially wrong with the UK. As a modern, developed European country, it's doing ok. There are some social issues that need working on, especially with youth, but that's eternal.
The guff about the economy is spin, and that's mostly very irresponsible and damaging spin… The thing is that the global financial crisis was caused by the USA, that's where the dominoes started to fall. The after-effects of it struck Britain but were not the fault of industry or government. The only countries to come off well out of the GFC were places like Australia, and that wasn't due to the government being smart, it was just because our mining industry is fuelling the growth in China.

In the UK stupid politicians always blame each other for economic woes, painting the places as failed and failing and completely buggered (which is not true), the press picks it up and parrots it and the general public start to believe it as well. And that has the direct side effect of actually depressing the economy because you erode consumer and investor confidence, you also globally create a very bad impression of the country which makes foreign investor generally wary.
The same is true for problems with social issues- they're exaggerated massively! It's been proven that time and again that crime rates go down year after year, but people think they're getting worse and worse because of the press and the politicians. And similarly it's the same with schools, the health service etc.
The thing is that when you're always talking this stuff down, people begin to believe in it and act as if it's true, then they start to make it true.

All this campaigning to ruin the country, just so you can get a different punch of arseclowns in with a different ideology… And the same will happen again most likely.
Wonderful democracy at its best.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:37PM
imshard at 4:10PM, Nov. 16, 2010
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ozoneocean
Faliat
The thing that pisses me off about “Broken Britain” is the fact that the people referring to it as that are usually the people that broke it.
The problem for me is that it's empty, annoying sloganising.

Besides, it's all based on bullshit.
Nothing is essentially wrong with the UK. As a modern, developed European country, it's doing ok. There are some social issues that need working on, especially with youth, but that's eternal.
The guff about the economy is spin, and that's mostly very irresponsible and damaging spin… The thing is that the global financial crisis was caused by the USA, that's where the dominoes started to fall. The after-effects of it struck Britain but were not the fault of industry or government. The only countries to come off well out of the GFC were places like Australia, and that wasn't due to the government being smart, it was just because our mining industry is fuelling the growth in China.

In the UK stupid politicians always blame each other for economic woes, painting the places as failed and failing and completely buggered (which is not true), the press picks it up and parrots it and the general public start to believe it as well. And that has the direct side effect of actually depressing the economy because you erode consumer and investor confidence, you also globally create a very bad impression of the country which makes foreign investor generally wary.
The same is true for problems with social issues- they're exaggerated massively! It's been proven that time and again that crime rates go down year after year, but people think they're getting worse and worse because of the press and the politicians. And similarly it's the same with schools, the health service etc.
The thing is that when you're always talking this stuff down, people begin to believe in it and act as if it's true, then they start to make it true.

All this campaigning to ruin the country, just so you can get a different punch of arseclowns in with a different ideology… And the same will happen again most likely.
Wonderful democracy at its best.

Funny, I could say the same thing about the USA. Same eternal guff, all new spin.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 12:59PM
Faliat at 8:58AM, Dec. 6, 2010
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I'm glad to announce that since my last post on this thread there have been several student protests all over the UK.

But you wanna know what's pissing me off now?

The government is trying to STOP them by changing the proposal from “No caps on fees” to “To help poorer students, those that claimed free school meals will have greatly reduced fees.”

Are they kidding? Someone who had a well paid job when they had a kid in school will have probably lost said job by the time they go to university at 18 or older. And that will have happened a LOT now.

Call that jumped up metal rod a knife?
Watch mine go straight through a kevlar table, and if it dunt do the same to a certain gaixan's skull in my immediate vicinity after, I GET A F*****G REFUND! BUKKO, AH?!

- Rekkiy (NerveWire)
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:25PM

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