General Discussion

Breaking DD's 'Glass Ceiling'
junoblairb at 1:23PM, June 26, 2007
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Okay… so whatever happened to enjoying what you do and not caring about where you stand?

While I'm sure this thread just got locked by previous post, think about that. I think SCD is in the top 100 here on the duck as its mirror site. I think. It doesn't get more than 500 in a day over here. Granted, my main site nulls the point, but that's not the discussion. But I don't need to be in the top ten of any comic list to be happy with what I do because I love it and I'm thankful everyday that I get to do what I enjoy without strings attached.

The politics? You can ignore them. And honestly, there is no ceiling in this industry. Only the one you make.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:11PM
ozoneocean at 2:10PM, June 26, 2007
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For all those that are saying in this thread “aw, what does popularity matter anyway” I refer you to this thread here:
“How Often Do You Check Your Stats and Pageviews?”
That, I believe, is the whole point of this thread.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:27PM
joeychips at 2:25PM, June 26, 2007
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Where there is competition, there will always be some sort of controversy. That said, some great points are brought up in the initial topic. This and the totally humble apology above are what make Drunk Duck such a great community.
Joe Chiappetta
www.SillyDaddy.net
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:10PM
strong414bad at 2:58PM, June 26, 2007
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Click to Add Title is very unpopular. I have less readers in my entire comic's lifetime than some people get in a day. But you know what? People still comment on it, and I still know that some people are getting enjoyment of what I'm writing. Even if my audience isn't massive, I know I'm reaching some people.

Isn't that enough?
Why hello there.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:59PM
Eviltwinpixie at 3:19PM, June 26, 2007
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Popularity is nice, I'll give you that. When I look at the top 10 list and see my comic there, I smile. I like having readers. But you're right, popularity brings hostility. I've barely noticed it for myself, as I'm not at that level yet, but other comics? I think perhaps people think that when a comic gets really big the artist ceases to exist as part of the community. “That person's so popular, no way they'd read this”, sort of thing. I'd like to see some sort of agreement, not a rule, but just a tactful agreement not to use DD comics as negative examples of things, as it WILL lead to hurt feelings.

As for popularity… Advertising is the biggest. Sometimes people see getting into the top 10 etc. with a cleverly timed advert as “cheating”. It's not. DD is a comic site, not a toplist like BuzzComix. It's not immoral to get word out on your comic, because readers are a good thing to have. Ranking is just a side effect.
I found ads on BuzzComix to be the best value for money. I can get 8,000 pageviews in a day by putting $1-3 of ads on. It's not the most I've had (I got over 30,000 from Punch n' Pie), but for the price? Can't beat it.
I used to like DeviantArt for ads, but they changed their scheme and it's a bit disappointing now.
Still, you can't make it on ads alone unless you're made of money. Your comic has to be good enough to hold readers. If they all go away again when the ad ends, you're back to square one.

Being a nice person is good, too. I have a lot of online friends, and a lot of people on my home forum who know of and think positively of me because I do try to be polite as much as I can. I've been there for 4 years and am a moderator, so I'm fairly recognisable. Tact is VITAL. When these people see my sig link, they're more likely to click it and think positively of my comic than if I was a horrible person. I dunno if you can get this one without it being genuine, though. Fake nice is a bit obvious.

I guess a lot of it is just a combination of luck, talent, and good marketing skills, the amounts differing depending on who you are. ^_^

It's a game I find a lot of fun, though. There's a lot of psychology to it, a lot of thought to put into it, and I find it all very interesting.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:24PM
MagickLorelai at 4:28PM, June 26, 2007
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Eh, there's always going to be a “Glass Ceiling”, in almost everything you do. Of course, glass can break quite easily, but that's rather besides the point. The popularity of a comic is based on a LOT of factors. What I've seen make a comic insanely popular is:
1: EFFORT. Good comics aren't produced in the five minutes before it gets uploaded. The most popular comics I've seen have artists who spend HOURS planning, drawing, writing, and setting up each page. They think about characters, interactions, plotline depth, foreshadowing, the reality of their world, etc. They decide on the best poses, angles, etc. for each panel.
2: BEING NICE: Not just to those who can help you, but to your fellow cartoonists/comickers/artists, and to your readers. Respecting them is a good solid step, but being sincerely nice stands out to people, makes them remember you.
3: GOOD STORY/ART: This is somewhat covered by Effort, but one or both of these things stands out on their own. A comic with horrible or simple art can skyrocket because of excellent writing. Good art does count, but I really feel it's the combination of excellent story/art that makes for a larger and more dedicated reader base. People have to like what they're reading.
4: DON'T LIMIT YOURSELF: Pandering to what you think the audience might like will get you temporary popularity at best. Focusing on a small bracket of people works for some senses, but it means not having wide appeal, which will mean not being as popular(if that's what you're looking for). The comics that don't limit themselves to a particular genre tend to do much better. Dominic Deegan, Charby, Elijah and Azuu, these comics all transcend different genres(if only for the sheer immensity of their comic size). And look at how popular they each are!
5: And probably MOST IMPORTANTLY: ENJOY WHAT YOU'RE DOING!: It's obvious when someone isn't happy with making their comic. The art suffers, the characters are flat, the story is boring, and the overall quality feels forced. Readers don't enjoy feeling like the artist is saying, “HAPPY NOW!?” or like they're being shoveled the dregs of someone's work. Someoen who loves what they're doing, it shows. The readers love what is loved by the creator.

All that said, I just have a mild complaint about your first post, or at least with some of the tone(Well, that, and the lambasting of Charby and Amelius, but I'm leaving that alone. It's all been said). From what I've seen, MOST of the artists in those top spots are shocked and surprised(at least to an extent) that they're there. Some aren't surprised, because they've put work into what they've done, but still. No one deserves to be attacked JUST because they've DONE WELL.

last edited on July 14, 2011 1:50PM
Exzachly at 4:16AM, June 27, 2007
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I do agree with ipokino's analysis though. DD makes some attempts to get new stuff attention (the most recently updated and the news mentions), but both of those reward quantity over quality. The featured comics thing does reward talent, though, which is nice.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:24PM
StaceyMontgomery at 6:47AM, June 27, 2007
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Glass Ceiling?

No.

I mean, I hate to always be the annoying, pedantic one, but words actually mean things. A “Glass Ceiling” refers to an unfair limit on how high someone is allowed to rise - something to doesn't apply to everyone else. The idea is that you can see through the glass, but you cannot move through it.

Unless you are saying that DD is discriminating against you, or in some other way being unfair to you, then it isn't a Glass Ceiling. It's just a Ceiling. A Normal Ceiling that, it seems to me, is applied pretty evenly to everyone.

I'm sorry to be crusty about it - but let's leave the term “Glass Ceiling” to people who are really dealing with them, OK?

What I find odd is, whenever someone complains about the unfairness of Drunkduck, they always have to oh-so-casually mention that they are in “the top 100s.” It never fails to make me smile.


There - I got through the whole post without bringing up the Socratic Method. I tell you, I'm getting positively gentle in my dotage.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:55PM
ipokino at 7:15AM, June 27, 2007
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To reply to Stacy. I never said anything about ‘unfair’ only that a glass ceiling does exist–not just on DD but in almost everything we do in life. Not only does it exist, I can quantify it and I can show both why and how it cannot help but exist. I can also show exactly what DD the site does which excerbates and what DD does to help bring ‘attention resources’ to books that aren't high in popularity. Exzachly spotted exactly what I have been observing–and it IS there! More later. I'm at work and break is over!
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:02PM
marine at 7:27AM, June 27, 2007
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You should've criticized Atland and its pornography, Eliza & Azzu and his terribleness, Gods of the Arr-kelaan and its D&D bulllshit, the generic and simplistic adventures of the hero by night, or penis and how all around better than every other comic on drunk duck it is. Its like the guy doing penis doesn't give other people a chance!

All that was sarcasm of course, in case you couldn't tell.

I feel at some point the top comics should “step down”, it was something I came up with for Buzzcomix two or three years ago. Basicly a “hall of fame” place for the better comics. Sort of give someone else a chance and still say “oh these guys are better than everyone else” and if you guys wanted, you're just as well as to make a “top” platinum comics plug on the front page for Hero By Night, Gods, and all the other “official” comics. Not that the advertisements all over the place for that stuff isn't enough, its just it feels kind of like a conflict of interest having sponsored comics dominating the toplist.

Another problem I've noticed thats being discussed over at buzzcomix is how there is no sense of community anymore. I try and plug Detective Fork or Basketcase or even Brutus and Pinky Ta as much as possible. I feel like those guys are my bros. Like I'm in a brotherhood with them, becuase they're all nice guys with nice comics. If I was friensd with a sprite comic guy that was still around, and he (or she even) was serious about i, I'd plug their comic and talk well of it. Webcomics are in such a shitty state because no one wants to link to people that need links. Instead everyone links to the shitty popular comics like Ctrl Alt Del or Penny Arcade. Its counter-productive to put penis in the same list as Penny Arcade. If your thirteen and just spent all day playing Halo or Grand Theft Auto murdering people calling people homophobic and racist names, are you going to pick a brand name comic like 8-bit theater or something different like This Ego of Mine or GAAK? One of the greatest injustices of the internet is that Coydog isn't insanely popular. She should be held above everybody else as a god, and yet it seems she has less readers than Chronic Sonic. Lets compare, Coydog spends a good portion of time on her comics, and they look so pretty. Chronic Sonic has sonic the hedgehog smoking pot in MS paint. Why is that? Because Sonic is a popular character amongst idiots. If I had to choose between one guy that REALLY likes penis or ten thousand guys that like Ctrl Alt Del for its “awesome game commentary”, its pretty easy who I'd choose. We quit linking each other. We quit being a brotherhood. We stopped being a community. Drunk Duck's been kind of dead for awhile. I've tried and tried to work with it and mold it into something. It seems like we've got a decent group of guys trying to build a nice webcomics community, instead of bringing each other down, we're actually giving each other GOOD comments, instead of ridiculing each other, we should be helping each other out.

So if you really want to know whose fault the glass ceiling is, its all of us. Me especially. In fact, I'll pull a jesus, all the blame is my fucking fault. I failed webcomics. I failed drunk duck. I'm not going to stop trying though guys. No matter what it takes. I almost had a strong network of guys supporting each other (anyone remember the “best” webring forever ago?) that came close to what my dream for Drunk Duck was. Everybody has a place here, even the most vulgar of internet trolls that want to do poorly drawn scatological racist sexist and just out and out offensive comics. We should all strive to work together. Most of the shit I say on here is just me pranking around. I've had the higher ups admit to me (more than one) my importance to the community, and I feel its high time I made a good mark. So thats it then.

tl;dr summary:

- Be more supportive, like some of the threads over in comic discussion.

- Actually help each other out, links, plugs, good reviews, even just reading each others work helps out. If only to have that ONE person read your comics, it gives you a special feeling.

- Appreciate me while I'm around. I might disappear again, and not come back, my health is in decline right now, so I may not make it much longer. I'd like to live to see what I had a hand in shaping be what it shrived to be.

Maybe I'm wrong though. Maybe Drunk Duck doesn't want to be a community for webcomics. Thats the first piece of advice I can give you guys, stop deluding yourselfs. We're all webcomics. My penis comics are no different from PVP or Superisity or any other comic on the internet. We should all work together and actually accomplish some goals. Whatever happened to putting out anthology books with all our work in it? Whatever happened to seeing GOOD discussions everyday? Why is it that so many people in webcomics suddenly disappear and unlike me, never return. Like Zyrotin, blurrymystr, or several others I could name that you guys here from the early days remember. Its rough going I know. You've gotta bite the fucking bullet and accept sprite comics, boy love comics, furry comics, and whatever genre penis fits into as your family. We're all webcomics. And we make the internet worse by being here. If we don't band together, its over. No one wants to read anymore. No one has the time. We gotta rack our brains and figure out how to get people reading again. We gotta work together and not shoot each other in the foot.

So yeah, there is a glass cieling. We're being watersported by someone whose under another glass table being pissed on by someone higher up then them. Its a domino effect. Webcomics are the lowest piece of the internet totem pole. We're somewhere above Juggalos and Furrys, with some crossovers, for the most hated people. Ask anyone their opinion of webcomics and they'll tell you. We gotta get our shit together and fast.


last edited on July 14, 2011 1:52PM
ipokino at 9:29AM, June 27, 2007
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Wow, Marine! You really had a lot to say, and some of it really made me feel sad, but on the whole, I don't agree. I think DD really IS trying to build a great, supportive Webcomic Community. I don't remember the old days because I wasn't here. I only know the now, and what I see of it I like. Oddly, I don't think Webcomics are the lowest of the low. I see Webcomics as the beacon of the future. Where else can I get published for free, and be encouraged by active readers even as I create? It's actually a dream come true for me. I did, however like very much your idea of rotating the top comics off the main page ocassionally–or even a nice Hall of Fame–cool idea.
As for the Glass Ceiling. The definition of fair in Math is:
If A = B
Thus A+C=D
and B+C=D
Unfairness is:
A+C=D
But B+C
The Glass Ceiling is the Variable C, in which C + A and only A can = D
while C + any other number (even one equalling A) is almost always < D.

This is the Inertia Affect of Resource Allocation to the Top of the Glass Ceiling. The Resource (Marque Spotting which = publicity which = page hits) is limited and is used to reward the top listers (Variable A) while being effectively withheld from those who are not Variable A's. Ergo, all things being equal (read ‘fair’) except in rare cases Variable B's rarely ever get enough page hits to surge through the glass ceiling into the toplist.

This occurs all through life, from which soda pop gets store shelf space to who gets the nod to run for President of the US. The trick, I think is to be always looking for ways to break through the glass.

One More apology before I'm out of here. Sorry for patting myself on the back for hitting the top one hundred (oh yeah DD's glass ceiling peaks at comic 35–just so ya know) I was being pretentious and pompous. I'll try and work on that along with all my other social ineptitudes
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:02PM
strong414bad at 9:48AM, June 27, 2007
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I'm just going to say this: there's a limit to how popular your comic is. There's no limit to how much fun you have making it.
Why hello there.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:59PM
subcultured at 9:58AM, June 27, 2007
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enjoy the process and the product, not striving for internet popularity
J
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:02PM
dueeast at 10:31AM, June 27, 2007
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I'd have to briefly and respectfully disagree with marine about DD being dead and un-community-like. Before I discovered DD, I was at ComicGenesis, which is living death personified and much less community-oriented.

Since marine's been around a lot longer than me, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt that things may have been much livelier and much better in the past, but they're really not bad right now. Generally, every artist or writer I've interacted with here at DD has been pretty nice and often helpful.

I am sorry to hear your health is giving you problems. I deal with various health issues myself. I often enjoy reading your posts because you're funny as well as to-the-point and insightful.

Is there some alternative that might lead to some top spot turnover? Probably. We might just have to all work together to design something like what you suggested or something even better (who knows?). But I believe we still have a DD community that can pull together and do that, if necessary.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:17PM
subcultured at 10:48AM, June 27, 2007
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heh
marine's brand of lively is choas to us all :)
J
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:02PM
Vindibudd at 12:16PM, June 27, 2007
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IMHO, people should be more focused on making their comics for the sake of making them. If you are trying to make money or something, you need to face it, you are not likely going to succeed at that. Also, besides the talent, art, media, writing, and all that other stuff that goes into making a good comic, you need to have an original idea. If your idea is not original, then it better be very interesting and executed marvelously. My cartoons are not really original in concept, but some people find my smartass and oddball writing palatable, yay for them! I draw what I like, and when I laugh at my own comic, that is what I do it for. I hope those who read it also feel that way, but if they don't I am not going to be all pissed about it. So your point about there being a glass ceiling is rather incredulous because you are suggesting that your comic for example is as good as every other top comic. Well you can think that, but it doesn't make it true. In fact, it's pretty damn arrogant and worthy of marine! Marine is the man. He draws penis, a highly superior work. haha Anyway, I have had the pleasure of communicating with Amelius and she is nothing of the sort like a primadonna. If you want my analysis as to why she is successful, it is because her idea is original and she works incredibly hard. I know that she has gone back and redrawn hundreds of pages that she felt were inferior. I know you are not really “attacking” her in particular, but because you use her as an example, then you should become educated about it. Drawing comics is not about busting out the knives on people. You should just be happy with what you get as long as you feel you are putting the best product out there. From firsthand experience, I know what it is like to be number one on drunk duck for an extended amount of time. The first part of that is being a nice person. The second part is not expecting things to immediately fall into place with how awesome you clearly know you are. Follow these steps and maybe even a 3d render porn comic can be successful! (Though you are really limiting your audience, just saying)
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:42PM
Neilak20 at 12:21PM, June 27, 2007
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I think if there is any “glass ceiling” its created from people thinking there is a glass ceiling and thus constructing one for themselves. I also dont think you can do a calculation to find out at which spot the “glass ceiling” manifests. Math is good for lots of things, but it cant predict something that's a product of someone's psyche.

-Ozoneocean edit- deleted the tnt vs Amy stuff. I warned about this.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:10PM
Amelius at 12:31PM, June 27, 2007
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I am not unforgiving, and I admit to being a little harsh in some of my tone as well (speak while angry and you will make the best speech you'll ever regret)so if you are sincerely offering the olive branch, I accept! (And I apologize also) I must say, excluding the one time I had misconstrued something someone said, (it's hard to read people in text sometimes but we cleared it up. I don't post much here because I am wracked with social anxieties, much like real life I stick to the shadows and observe, speak when spoken to etc.) this is the first time I've been offered a sincere apology from someone like this. And it means a lot, there is no need to feel anything needs to be made up for. Barring my initial feelings for this topic, you did bring up some interesting points and now that the issue is water under the bridge I can appreciate it a bit more.

Though I really don't see it as a ceiling, glass or plaster or what have you. It's only a ceiling if you let it be. I never thought I'd be where I am now (I didn't angst over it or anything but I thought it'd be nice someday), the best thing to do is ignore stats. It'll only make you worry about things you shouldn't, you gotta keep
your head down and keep working. Ignore stats, they are superficial, they're nice to look back on and see your progress, but it's nothing to obsess over. A watched pot never boils, so to speak.
I know that getting recognition for your work is a challenge, but alongside the great suggestions everyone mentioned, patience is a key factor in all of it. And once you get recognition, don't slack. It's not all rest at the “top” (which for all intents and purposes I don't feel like I'm at the top of anything)but you gotta keep working hard.
Popularity has been a frequent complaint on Deviant Art too. I may not agree with all the sentiments, but one thing does seem a little apparent, a popular poster there can post scribbles on bar napkins and get crazy page hits (and favorites) when they have demonstrated much better talent in the past. People with popularity do appear to “coast” along without much effort. I'm certain it happens, but I think that's a really lazy approach and a disrespect to people who admire their art. People I've talked to on AIM (though I don't have it anymore, I got a new computer)always seemed a bit wary the first time they talked to me, because (as they have said) a lot of artists they admire see their fans as annoyances and get mad if they try to talk to them. I really didn't mind juggling 13 conversations, even if it meant spending 8 hours on the computer when I was supposed to be doing my work ^_^ But it sort of surprised me, I guess, that popular artists would look down on people that got them where they are. That is why I think being respectful of your fans is really important too. I've only checked my stats page a total of 3 times, once because I was looking at the new features, another time out of curiosity (hehe, why else?) and recently only because someone brought it up. Otherwise, I find it a neat feature that I haven't much interest in.

If I have anything else to owe my position to however, I think it's the title of the comic. I'm sure it gets a lot of clicks from people going “gee, that's a stupid name!” (seriously, a while back someone told me I should change the name to something better, less silly!) and I could also be getting traffic from people looking for that other comic with Vampirate in the title (which is a yaoi comic, so I'm sure some girls are disappointed to find none in mine, and some thought I stole the name!2002 comes before 2005, ladies.)

Just because my comic has been stuck where it is for a while now doesn't mean I'm the only one who gets disrespect. I've seen other comics that made it into the tops get comments like “I used to like this comic until it became mainstream”. I couldn't help think that that was the pettiest thing I've ever heard! What if every reader got that attitude? That when something becomes popular, it's not worth your time anymore? Nobody would be popular for long then would they? The logic of some folks completely escapes me.
And I'm not about to play “poor little popular comic girl” here, but the top spot isn't to be envied unless you enjoy people thinking you're a big jerk without making any effort to get to know you. Or if you are comfortable with empty praises; I can see the same reader post “this is the best comic ever!” on mine and then on the comic next to it and so on. Or if you would enjoy losing readers that were there for you in the beginning (or pretended to be for their benefit)because you're no longer a friend but competition? Believe it or not, this comment on a comic I do the art for:
“Oh! I didn't know zerlock was drawing this! Yay! Although there are too many Charby strips for me to read to really get into the series (cause I'll never catch up) I can start early here! Great job!”
and this comment:“Heads up here: I'm not a fan of self-insertion comic, chibi comics, or Charby the Vampirate. So don't expect to get a glowing review from me.”
are from the same person, who stopped reading 3 1/2 years ago.(expect a glowing review? Like I went in there expecting my feet kissed? I wanted a decent honest review, not two guys implying I'm a necrophiliac (I'm NOT) and reviewing a strip/gag comic under story comic standards! You don't review Calvin & Hobbes the same way you review Spiderman! Also, it wasn't a “self-insertion comic”. Zerlocke was my previous pen name borrowed from one of my characters, Amelius is my current pen name borrowed from a character.) this is just an example of the sort of thing to expect. Unless it's just me…does anyone else get this treatment? I'm certain I'm not alone in feeling a little hurt when people say they just ignore everything that makes it into the top list because they're already “too” popular. It seems a little childish to me. I wouldn't ignore a comic with low readership taking that as an indication that it's no good either. I don't read comics like MegaTokyo or Ctrl Alt Del because they are “too popular”, but because I read a good portion already and it wasn't my thing. I'm not going to say they don't deserve to be popular because they didn't work for me however.
Don't get me wrong,it's not like I'm upset that certain people aren't reading my comic, I'm just disappointed in the reason they say so. It's like that guy who said he couldn't read it because it was “too Japanese” (it's actually more akin to a Western/Eastern hybrid, but it may look “too Japanese” to someone who doesn't know jack about cartooning)

I can't complain too much though, largely I've been blessed with wonderful readers that are helpful, kind and supportive. The only time I meet hostility is when I post in the forums (which is pretty rare, this is my 31st post)and the occasional troll that snipes me anonymously. But these are the things you have to look forward to when you start to gain more readers.

People just need to realize that I, and anyone on the list (though if they disagree may do so) don't want our butts kissed, we just want some respect(just a lil' bit, uh huh :whistling: ) just like everyone else on the site. Nobody needs to be treated better or differently. We're all here together right? That's why it's Drunk Duck, not Cut-Throat Popularity War. If you think a comic deserves attention, then bring attention to it by golly!

And I must agree with a lot of what Marine said, this is a community. We should act like one. I don't understand the notion that we deserve handouts because a comic is “better” than others. Yes, they deserve attention, but getting attention without working for it is just not fair. Some people have natural talent, or superior computer art programs, or already have a large fan base on another site. But some people had to work from the bottom. Some had to draw every day, had to deal with harsh criticism, pain and blisters, people mistaking their Photoshop7 coloring for MS paint, crippling snipe-votes that kept their comic below the radar, etcetera etcetera, until they finally started improving their craft and getting to know the community. It doesn't happen overnight and shouldn't. Overnight success breeds swollen egos and senses of entitlement. People that work hard to get where they are may face frustration for a long time, but finally making it to the top should be a reward, not a punishment.

And well said MagickLorelai, you always impress me with your responses. ^_^

And while I didn't advertise my comic, Eviltwinpixie is absolutely right, there is no shame in it and I see no reason to look down on anyone who is smart with their resources! It isn't cheating. Anyone who thinks so probably does because they either can't afford it or they didn't think of it first! And why begrudge someone for advertising outside DD? It brings more potential readers for YOU too, into DD. Believe it or not, people aren't going to visit a community host like this just for one single comic. DD has by far the most diverse and talented collection of authors that I've seen online. Of course,I don't wander outside DD much, but on the occasions that I did, I couldn't find much that interested me. The lack of communication between readers and authors on comics outside DD is a bit of a turnoff for me. Maybe that's just me, but I'm as interested in the people that do comics as I am in the comics themselves.
And speaking of community stuff, I really miss the web rings. I like seeing stuff like the DD Civil War that encourages the community to work together on something. I also liked the oekaki drawing board and contests that used to be on DD, I think those were great community things (I know I met a lot of great artists looking at stuff in there) and I would like to see those again. ^_^

I think that's all I've got on the subject…it is a relief that I won't have this bothering me for an entire year (because I do agonize over stuff like this for a long time and it really feels better to have gotten this settled.)
Thank you ipokino.


last edited on July 14, 2011 10:52AM
alejkhan at 12:34PM, June 27, 2007
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I have to say first that I've actually been inspired by this thread, particularly one of Marine's posts, and I think I'm going to try and be more community involved.

As for the “glass ceiling”, recently I was kindly plugged by Amelius and I temporarily got into the top 10. I at first had no idea she had done this, so I was wracking my brain trying to figure out where the hell all these new readers came from! I didn't take the time to just appreciate them, I was being driven crazy by not knowing. Now things have settled down from the original influx of readers and I'm out of the top 10 and that's just fine, I'm very happy I was able to gain some new readers. But this got me realizing how much things are totally about chance encounters here. You got to put yourself out there sure, and you can start by advertising yourself however you want to go about doing that, but until you make some connections with people on whatever level, you aren't going to be heard about. All my readership gaining has been from people who I've developed relationships with, people who draw other comics that I like who I've become ‘webcomic friends’ with, forums I've gone to, word of mouth, these sorts of things. I'm not super amazingly successful at all, but I'm successful for me and am gaining more success as I continue and it's all thanks to community.


God damn that's cheesey.
last edited on July 14, 2011 10:48AM
Amelius at 12:56PM, June 27, 2007
(online)
posts: 251
joined: 1-15-2006
TnT comics: way to totally ignore then entire point, and the moderator's request. That is the sort of thing that gets these interesting topics locked.
And what the hell, Furries and boobies? For one, LaBelle is not a “furry”, nor is K'ale, they're demons and werewolves. GOT IT?
Second, her manner of dress is appropriate to her character and the fact that she's at a party, and I was very uncomfortable drawing her bosom area so don't call attention to it like that's the only thing people read my comic for, because it's NOT.
THIRD, don't make snap judgments on ONE bloody page of a comic.

FOURTH, I deal with crap like this all the time. Get a thick skin? Have you never learned basic manners? Not everybody is a macho-tough person who should have to sit down and take beatings. I didn't come in here as some martyr so you can put that silly idea right out. I came in here to defend my fans.

More than one person has been mean to me about my comic, buddy. I've put up with it for four years. I was standing up for my READERS if you actually READ any of it. But looks like your thing is to skim and make snap judgments.

I have NEVER said I am exempt from criticism! Learn the difference between criticism and personal attacks before you jump in and shoot your mouth off.
Did I say I deserve anything better because I've worked hard and a long time? NO I most certainly did NOT! I was using it as an example for how I got there!
Stop putting words in my mouth and trying to spin this around to make me look like some furry-yiff drawing pervert crybaby.

Thanks a lot for spoiling the productivity of the thread.

last edited on July 14, 2011 10:52AM
SteveMyers22 at 3:07PM, June 27, 2007
(online)
posts: 300
joined: 6-17-2007
Amelius
I don't post much here

You should post more. This thread's been really interesting to read. It sucks that you got attacked, but wow, you showed some serious passion there in your posts. It only made me want to read your comic more.

:)

And then once the drama passed, your posts really delved into the topic too. For someone as new as I am to this place, it's very helpful to get insight from veterans like you.

last edited on July 14, 2011 3:58PM
TitanOne at 4:12PM, June 27, 2007
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posts: 199
joined: 5-12-2007
You know I'm not going to gripe about this post–I could claim to be offended, but I just don't get it. How can there be a “glass ceiling” on something that (a) has no real financial rewards to speak of, and (b) is totally user-content driven? This is the perfect democracy on DD–everything is based on the interests of the readers and nobody is getting paid a salary, so it's all labor of love and pursuit of excellence on a singularly personal level.

The other advice I would give to someone who wants to go up in popularity is:

(a) Do something no one else is doing;

(b) Learn to draw (in 2D!), and

© Update consistently.

The latter is most important and the strip in question, Charby, is done by a creator who is almost religious with the frequency of her updates!

–TitanOne
Current artist, Craving Control
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:30PM
Terminal at 4:31PM, June 27, 2007
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posts: 5,505
joined: 1-6-2006
Amelius
If I have anything else to owe my position to however, I think it's the title of the comic. I'm sure it gets a lot of clicks from people going “gee, that's a stupid name!” (seriously, a while back someone told me I should change the name to something better, less silly!) and I could also be getting traffic from people looking for that other comic with Vampirate in the title (which is a yaoi comic, so I'm sure some girls are disappointed to find none in mine, and some thought I stole the name!2002 comes before 2005, ladies.)

If there's one thing I can vouch for is this. I purposely had long named comics just to see if people would click on them. Content-wise, they weren't that good. A comic about Tetris? Seriously, that comic had no future. No plot, no nothing. Though it did work, people will click.

I just wish I could rid myself of the tumor I have on the comic I actually strived to keep at and not give up, unlike the rest of my long named comics.
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:11PM
Red Slayer at 5:14PM, June 27, 2007
(online)
posts: 1,873
joined: 3-1-2006
Amy, i'm giving you my bat of +1 vs trolls for christmas.

TitanOne
everything is based on the interests of the readers and nobody is getting paid a salary
Except for Volte, he's got a pretty sweet deal with PS.

last edited on July 14, 2011 3:02PM
TnTComic at 6:05PM, June 27, 2007
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maritalbliss
It's not the “literal” defination of ‘Glass Ceiling’ is more metaphorical-like.


I dunno, the classical definition might apply. I've seen people influence their opinions in either a positive or negative way simply because it was created by a member of the fairer sex.
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:31PM
ccs1989 at 6:18PM, June 27, 2007
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posts: 2,656
joined: 1-2-2006
MagickLorelai
Eh, there's always going to be a “Glass Ceiling”, in almost everything you do. Of course, glass can break quite easily, but that's rather besides the point. The popularity of a comic is based on a LOT of factors. What I've seen make a comic insanely popular is:
1: EFFORT. Good comics aren't produced in the five minutes before it gets uploaded. The most popular comics I've seen have artists who spend HOURS planning, drawing, writing, and setting up each page. They think about characters, interactions, plotline depth, foreshadowing, the reality of their world, etc. They decide on the best poses, angles, etc. for each panel.
2: BEING NICE: Not just to those who can help you, but to your fellow cartoonists/comickers/artists, and to your readers. Respecting them is a good solid step, but being sincerely nice stands out to people, makes them remember you.
3: GOOD STORY/ART: This is somewhat covered by Effort, but one or both of these things stands out on their own. A comic with horrible or simple art can skyrocket because of excellent writing. Good art does count, but I really feel it's the combination of excellent story/art that makes for a larger and more dedicated reader base. People have to like what they're reading.
4: DON'T LIMIT YOURSELF: Pandering to what you think the audience might like will get you temporary popularity at best. Focusing on a small bracket of people works for some senses, but it means not having wide appeal, which will mean not being as popular(if that's what you're looking for). The comics that don't limit themselves to a particular genre tend to do much better. Dominic Deegan, Charby, Elijah and Azuu, these comics all transcend different genres(if only for the sheer immensity of their comic size). And look at how popular they each are!
5: And probably MOST IMPORTANTLY: ENJOY WHAT YOU'RE DOING!: It's obvious when someone isn't happy with making their comic. The art suffers, the characters are flat, the story is boring, and the overall quality feels forced. Readers don't enjoy feeling like the artist is saying, “HAPPY NOW!?” or like they're being shoveled the dregs of someone's work. Someoen who loves what they're doing, it shows. The readers love what is loved by the creator.

All that said, I just have a mild complaint about your first post, or at least with some of the tone(Well, that, and the lambasting of Charby and Amelius, but I'm leaving that alone. It's all been said). From what I've seen, MOST of the artists in those top spots are shocked and surprised(at least to an extent) that they're there. Some aren't surprised, because they've put work into what they've done, but still. No one deserves to be attacked JUST because they've DONE WELL.

Agreed on all fronts.
http://ccs1989.deviantart.com

“If one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours.”
-Henry David Thoreau, Walden
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:38AM
MagickLorelai at 6:46PM, June 27, 2007
(online)
posts: 320
joined: 1-20-2006
TnT, I'm confused. Are you saying we should respect your criticism, or not? I mean, you made an offhand comment on something you admit you haven't read, and when someone responds because something they care deeply about has been insulted, you suddenly blow the other direction? “Don't take it seriously”?

But in all seriousness now, you're missing the point. Amelius DOES get this kind of crap all the time. The attacks on her in the beginning of this post, which have already been apologized for and Amelius has already gotten over, were unwarranted, AND insulted her readers, which is what she was the most upset about.

Again: It was when her READERS were insulted that she got the most upset about.

Now, she's responding to your attacks, and you back off of them as though you didn't mean them, all to illustrate…what, that she gets upset over “nothing”? Fine. Congratulations, big man, you play the internetz GOOD.

Go ahead and talk about how other people need to get thicker skins, deal with insults and attacks better, whatever. There is nothing that will change your mind that Amelius deserves whatever she gets, and that she can't handle criticism. Just go right on ahead. ^_^

-Ozoneocean -I've warned about this earlier in the thread. Amy has already addressed the situation herself, this thread is for discussing popularity here at DD not attacking or defending particular users for what they post about other people.

last edited on July 14, 2011 1:50PM
maciapaladin at 6:48PM, June 27, 2007
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joined: 5-21-2007
I've been around a long time, not that anyone would notice it. This is the longest sustained burst of productivity that I have ever produced. A large part of it was seeing the response I was getting from readers here on The Duck. I agree with… oh, hell. I can't remember names. (I promise I'll get better the longer I am here!) But anyway, I do agree that places like Comic Genesis are a “community graveyard”, only showing ANY sense of “loyalty” to their creators when you walk right up and get in their faces at conventions. I have a picture of me shaking hands with Chris Crosby in 2004 somewhere around here. Did I get a link from Superosity or Sore Thumbs? Hell no. lol

So Drunk Duck, of all the “alternative” places I could display my series got my vote. And has quickly become my “homepage” so to speak. And that's after (Hmmm… 1997, carry the 1…) a solid decade of self-hosting. My old homepage? A redirect to my page here. As for the glass ceiling… I just don't see it. You want to talk about “tough break” knocking a entrenched comic off the top of the popular list, head over to Smack Jeeves and try taking out Ransom as the top comic. Of the last TWENTY updates, I would say TWELVE were “filler” variety and now the comic is on “hiatus” while still holding the top position.

I'm not leaving here. I got into the top 1000 on my first try. I've been doing Starship Moonhawk since 1994, long before the internet as we know it. I'd love it if my readers talked to me a little more like they did before the 2005 crash, though. I miss that…
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:50PM
StaceyMontgomery at 7:12PM, June 27, 2007
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posts: 520
joined: 4-7-2007
ipokino said:

>

Then you are speaking nonsense - a Glass Ceiling is, by definition, an unfair and discriminatory limit on success applied to someone as a form of discrimination - Generally, because of their Gender or Race. I mean, if you want to use words at random, knock yourself out. But this particular misuse of “Glass Ceiling” is very insulting to DrunkDuck, and very insulting to anyone who's ever faced a real Glass Ceiling in their life.

You can be unhappy with the Drunkduck system all you want - but they aren't discriminating against you, are they?

I'm sorry to be one of those people who gets all bent out of shape by something as old fashioned as the actual meaning of words, I'm sure I'm coming off as a ridiculous grouch. I apologize for being so dogged about something that must seem very minor to you. Nowadays, everyone is very happy using words in very loose and “creative” ways, and perhaps I just need to get with the program.

But honestly, I really hate it when the language of people who are discriminated against is stolen and abused by people who aren't being discriminated against. Real discrimination ruins peoples lives - their problems do not exist just to give you a snappy way to whine about DrunkDuck.

The folks who work hard to keep DD running do not deserve to be called discriminatory. Words have meanings.

Here's what answers.com gave me for “Glass Ceiling”: “An unacknowledged discriminatory barrier that prevents women and minorities from rising to positions of power or responsibility, as within a corporation.”

I dont think DD deserves that phrase. Do you?

- Stacey
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:55PM
marine at 7:19PM, June 27, 2007
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posts: 2,425
joined: 1-6-2006
First off, more comedic comments:



FLAME ON! Well done responding to criticism Amy! You've made me laugh pretty hard! This thread is filled with melodramatic webcomic bullshit that is the very reason why webcomics are so hated. Defending yourself on the internet is only funny when you're defending something as terrible as penis. Do you think John K goes around on message boards that say the ripping friends sucked giving out reasons why it doesn't? If I called anyone who watched or loved Ren & Stimpy a loser, would he come down from his high horse to say something? Watch the drama unfold as other people defend a cartoon they had nothing to do wth, nor understand why I mentioned it or its flamboyant creator.

Now to be a little serious, or at least attempt to…

TitanOne
(a) has no real financial rewards to speak of
;;

There are now. Lots of comics (over 20 by my count) are on the payroll from Platinum Studios. When they bought out the site, they started paying. Money's being given out to people, and I want some of it. Because of my pride and sinful nature, I feel I deserve some money. To go from “Chronic Sonic” to “penis” is a big leap in a couple of years. And to have produced enough finished works to put myself in league with KC Green or Dave Kelly, that also is an accomplishment. People like what I have to say because I don't bullshit them. I'm blunt and to the point. Often very rude about it and have a way of scrutinizing things that cuts people to the bone. I feel like I should be getting SOMETHING for doing what I do. I deliver content everyday, consistently, and I can barely afford to pay my bills. Face it kids, they have the money to pay out. Who among us has the gravitas to ask for it?
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:52PM

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