Debate and Discussion

BUSH gonna get impeached?
ccs1989 at 1:51PM, May 24, 2007
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subcultured
bush stole the first election

This isn't the topic at hand, Sub. Plus you need some support for such an assertion.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 11:38AM
subcultured at 10:22PM, May 24, 2007
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cheating the election IS grounds for an impeachment (bush)

let's do some connection
jeb bush>georgebush>florida>mistake on ballot>bush wins
cheney>haliburton>bush>president>gulf war>haliburton gets the oil contract
J
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:02PM
kingofsnake at 6:03AM, May 25, 2007
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Nice theory sub, but it's all conjecture, if you want bush impeached you're going to have to prove sometihng, like with evidence, not just logic.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:16PM
kyupol at 7:57AM, May 25, 2007
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No. Bush is a member of skull and bones and part of the new world order. A satanic cult that worships the owl god and satan.

He is untouchable.
NOW UPDATING!!!
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:25PM
subcultured at 7:59AM, May 25, 2007
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if the paper work evidence is public then HE would be impeached.

so i can only adress the situations that did happen and try to connect the lines.
J
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:02PM
ccs1989 at 9:24PM, May 25, 2007
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Actually there is evidence out there. But when you make random assertions it's like constructing a conspiracy theory. It doesn't really get you anywhere.

Better evidence would be citing the ballots which were counted in the Florida election in favor of Bush when in fact they violated Florida law. For example:
344 ballots with no evidence that they were cast on/before Election Day.
96 ballots lacking appropriate witness info.
169 ballots coming from unregistered voters.
5 ballots which came in after the deadline (Nov. 17).
19 overseas voters voting on two ballots which were counted twice.

Now when you consider that Bush won only by 537 votes, those ballots that were counted while violating the law start to seem a little fishy.

Also there's the whole controversy about how Katherine Harris, the Florida Secretary of State in charge of elections (and also George Bush's campaign chairwoman), allowed the counting Database to discount hundreds of votes of black felons and African-Americans WITHOUT a criminal record. Database Technology was paid $4 Million by Harris to remove any person “suspected” of being a felon from the voting list, nullifying their votes. Anyway apparently the people counting that day in Florida were a little bit racist, because black people really got screwed with their votes not counted in many cases.

So when you put together the fact that there were a bunch of ballots in favor of Bush that violated Florida's election laws, and there were a ton of minority votes that were nullified because of “suspicion” of criminal records, you get a much more convincing case against Bush in the 2000 elections.

Sources: Los Angeles Times, “Florida Net Too Wide in Purge of Voter Roles”, Lisa Getter, May 21, 2001.

“Florida's Dissappeared Voters: Disfranchised by the GOP”, Gregory Palast, February 5, 2001.

New York Times, “Contesting the Vote: Black Voters; Arriving in Florida Voting Places, Some Blacks Found Frustration,” Mireya Navarro and Somini Sengupta, Nov. 30, 2001.
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“If one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours.”
-Henry David Thoreau, Walden
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:38AM
Insanity at 7:42PM, May 31, 2007
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Bush won't be impeached because people know that Cheney is so much worse…

He'll shoot us all in the face!

AwesomeUnicorn
I feel a little bit like Hitler right now, too.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:01PM
therealtj at 6:31PM, June 2, 2007
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*Sigh* like all cool people, you guys are sadly liberal. He shouldn't be impeached as he has done nothing to be impeached for. Impeachment is for a person who has done something illegal, and therefor should not be in a high office for morale reason's. He didn't break a law. In fact he's not at all moraly corrupt. Would I say he was a good president? No, he didn't do anything good. Would I say he is a bad president? No, he didn't do anything bad. The problem is, he started a war (Which should have been started) but didn't fight it right. If we quit it now, however, we will show everyone who hates us we are weak. Then they will attack. But, I don't know that much about polotics as I am still just but a teen.

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last edited on July 14, 2011 4:25PM
ccs1989 at 7:42PM, June 2, 2007
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Iraq is a big problem. We can't really ask for foreign help because of the way we've handled ourselves there, although we desperately need more soldiers to keep the place secure. A troops surge didn't really help. Making restructuring Iraq the focus of the world could help bring nations together and help make the country more secure, but that would involve admitting our own weakness. And that would be political suicide.

The Iraq Study Group recommended increasing our ties with Syria to help keep terrorists our of Iraq, but also suggested that we decrease troop levels. Doing that would probably result in violence in Iraq. The only way I could see the US being able to handle the problem all by ourselves would be to apply 500,000 more troops to Iraq to stay for a 10 year period. However this would also be political suicide.

I really don't know what to do about the Iraq question, and I get the feeling that the elected leaders don't either. Perhaps it was a justified war, but it was handled the wrong way. At the moment America is hemorrhaging money for each month we fight, the dead soldiers and Iraqis are piling up, and we are less able to provide for advancements in our own country, such as improving education. Less people are going to college now that 30 years ago because of the cost alone.
http://ccs1989.deviantart.com

“If one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours.”
-Henry David Thoreau, Walden
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:38AM
subcultured at 8:14PM, June 2, 2007
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therealtj
*Sigh* like all cool people, you guys are sadly liberal. He shouldn't be impeached as he has done nothing to be impeached for. Impeachment is for a person who has done something illegal, and therefor should not be in a high office for morale reason's. He didn't break a law. In fact he's not at all moraly corrupt. Would I say he was a good president? No, he didn't do anything good. Would I say he is a bad president? No, he didn't do anything bad. The problem is, he started a war (Which should have been started) but didn't fight it right. If we quit it now, however, we will show everyone who hates us we are weak. Then they will attack. But, I don't know that much about polotics as I am still just but a teen.

he knew the informations, yet failed or maybe ignore it to keep the war going
J
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:02PM
RDraconis at 9:28PM, June 2, 2007
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He's not going to be impeached… First of all, we only have to weather it out until the next elections. Second, just because we don't like him- we aren't impeaching him. We didn't even technically impeach Nixon, just made it obvious that if he didn't resign we would. And we probably wouldn't've gotten that far if he hadn't recorded everything that was said in the oval office. It's really, really, REALLY hard to impeach a president. Which sometimes sucks.

Would I say he was a good president? No, he didn't do anything good. Would I say he is a bad president? No, he didn't do anything bad. The problem is, he started a war (Which should have been started) but didn't fight it right. If we quit it now, however, we will show everyone who hates us we are weak. Then they will attack. But, I don't know that much about polotics as I am still just but a teen.
If he didn't do anything good and didn't do anything bad, what did he do? Sit in the white house all day playing tetris? You can't do neither good nor bad if you're that powerful and start a war.

Now then, he did plenty of things bad. He got us into war over OIL (something we need to stop being reliant on) and screwed up our budget. I mean, Clinton has a bad rep- but at least he got our budget to be in surplus and helped the environment a bit. Democrats are good for that, it seems…

Also do you really believe the “we will show everyone who hates us we are weak. Then they will attack.”? Have you ever heard of the Vietnam War? We lost to this tiny country. No, we lost to HALF of this tiny country.
{heavy sarcasm}Yeah… we got horribly attacked after that. Really @#$^ed after all the attacks that occurred after we pulled out of Vietnam because we couldn't win. {/heavy sarcasm} We're still just as badarse and powerful a country as before we got into Iraq (only with some changes). Pulling out of a place we shouldn't still be isn't gonna make us appear weak. WEAKNESS in terms of lack of supplies, low resources, failing economy, etc, etc. will make us look weak.

…And maybe things'd be better if we stopped getting people and countries to hate us so much.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:01PM
subcultured at 10:10PM, June 2, 2007
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he mislead people about 9/11 and saddam…there's barely any connections.
J
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:02PM
Vagabond at 10:41PM, June 2, 2007
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… I don't even want to go into how many things are wrong with comparing the Iraqi War with the Vietnam War. Really.
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:38PM
Corn Doggy Dog at 11:59PM, June 3, 2007
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I really do pray for the day that he gets impeached to come soon! and I don`t even pray.
Shiver me timbers! NOW!
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:45AM
Sea_Cow at 7:14PM, June 12, 2007
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Didja hear? Bush is now trying to allow himself to keep anyone he calls an enemy operative from going to a normal trial. His first try failed, but how many more will there be?
I am so happy to finally be back home
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:24PM
iagojester at 7:06AM, June 13, 2007
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Hm. Did you really just say that? Are all you people really saying these things?
How many of you are action-men in the military? How many of you sit in on legislation, read the house of congress' yearly report? How many of you have been to Iraq and seen the situation for yourself? Let's stem the flow of non-premeditated babble for a moment to look at the picture on a different scale.

RDraconis
Also do you really believe the “we will show everyone who hates us we are weak. Then they will attack.”? Have you ever heard of the Vietnam War? We lost to this tiny country. No, we lost to HALF of this tiny country.
{heavy sarcasm}Yeah… we got horribly attacked after that. Really @#$^ed after all the attacks that occurred after we pulled out of Vietnam because we couldn't win. {/heavy sarcasm} We're still just as badarse and powerful a country as before we got into Iraq (only with some changes). Pulling out of a place we shouldn't still be isn't gonna make us appear weak. WEAKNESS in terms of lack of supplies, low resources, failing economy, etc, etc. will make us look weak

To answer RDraconis directly- One war is not like another. They are not cookie-cutter reasons for war, nor do they follow suit. The war in Vietnam was to aid France and try to stop the spread of communism. Do you know why we're in the Iraq war? Maybe it's to find weapons of mass destruction, maybe it's to hold the tide against Iran and it's desire to engulf all the oil fields, maybe it's because Saddam Hussein was a totalitarian dictator who killed thousands of people on whims, and maybe it's because Bush needed to do something after 9-11 to put the country's sudden nationalistic idealogy to use. There is nothing about stopping the spread of communism or aiding France in this war. How can you say the outcome would be the same?
If we leave-
The whole country will fall apart, the new government will drown, and any effort we had decidedly put into the country will go to waste.

In their weakened state, Iraq as a nation will not stand, and thereby it will be easy for Iran to invade, take over, and President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and
the Supreme Leader or Iran, the Grand Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, will likely rule with a
bloody fist and only increase the deaths dramatically.

With the increased man power, and the knowledge that America is low in reserves, troups, and money, the real threat is Iran at this point. They are like a salivating dog perched on the border, waiting for America to turn tail.

I think it's difficult for the average person to understand war- or anything politial for that matter. Nothing is what it seems. What the newspaper and glossy magazines tell you can either be what the government wants you to hear, or what they see from an uber-left perspective. To know what really goes on, you need to talk to officers.
More often than not, men on the field have no idea what's going on up top. They do their duty, and they do it well, and I'm thankful, but they are not the authorities on the strategies of war. Officers and higher-ups who are there can you a better idea of what's going on.
For example- did you know what the biggest problem that US troops faced when they took Baghdad was? Trash. Hussein had, for reasons we are still uncertain, fired all trash employees and there were simply piles of the stuff everywhere. The US's first action there was to remove the trash. Next? The sewers. The sewers in Baghdad are made to accomadate 1/10th of the actual population there. It had never been fixed by the government, so the US started that too. Next? Power. More than 60% of homes in Baghdad were without power. Why? Because there are groups (think gangs or mafias) that own the power grids in any given neighborhood and control them with sky-high prices. The US had to get rid of these groups and reconstruct the power grid.
Do these things even sound like war to you? Well, they are. They are a war for the people of Iraq. If we can win the people, the country will settle.

The problem is of course that it is nearly impossible… We cannot help a people who will not acquiesce to terms, or compromise their goals. It is a war of religion, now, and while America has no place in it, we are involved now, and leaving would be deserting the people and leaving countless to die.

I am surprised by your flashy talk of impeaching Bush. As many have said, there are no grounds, no proof, and no logic. Do you honestly believe we are where we are now because of one man? Do you believe that one man controls the sway of an entire county with his pinky-finger? Do you not understand that there are hundreds of people making these decisions, and that the president, if anything, is only a puppet who charmingly speaks with his ridiculous accent and waves to the camera? Let me put it on your terms. It is perhaps the equivilant to saying, “If Micky Mouse was fired, the Disney corporation would become more like Studio Ghibli.” In this situation, you are forgetting Donald, Goofy, Minnie, a whole slew of other characters, as well as the actual people who run the Disney company: Iger, Bird, and Braverman. Never heard of them? Well, you've probably never heard of the people who are actually pulling strings in the White House either. Besides, are you realizing who would replace him? Think about it.

I am not insulting anyone's intelligence here. I am sure you are all quite smart. However, if you really want to attack the problem- attack the problem, don't take the easy way-out and point a finger at one man. Discuss problems than arise, discuss politics, and discuss solutions. But please think about them in true 360 depth, the implications for everyone involved, and all the side effects before proposing large sweeping generalizations like, “Let's impeach Bush.”


~*~Fated Feather~*~
Pirates, art history, and time travel- things could get messy.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:55PM
ZeroVX at 7:19AM, June 13, 2007
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Well, I know for fact that Phantom Penguin is an army man, so he can say what he wants.

Besides him, I don't know.

Personally, as I said before, I don't care how he gets out, just so long as he's out.

I don't even know why I care. I'm Canadian, for cryin' out loud, not American!
“If our own government was responsible for the deaths of almost 100,000 people…..would you really wanna know?”

V for Vendetta, V.
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:57PM
ozoneocean at 10:17AM, June 13, 2007
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The fact is though Iago that Iraq posed no threat to anyone except its own people-just like the Sudan, Burma, Indonesia, Belarus and countless other countries. But after the invasion the place fell apart, it is a massive failure on every single level. It is a failed attempt at old style muscular US foreign policy from the past, the kind of thing that worked so badly with Vietnam, and Cuba, and worked so well with Panama, Nicaragua, the Philippines, Laos, Grenada, etc.

It had nothing at all to do with “genocide” or WMD, this was a strategic war for positioning, the securing of resources, and intimidation. It hasn't been successful. The US can not just pull out, you're right, but they'd do better to work WITH Iran and Syria than against them, those countries aren't really as evil as they're made out to be, and Iran will never, ever improve if it continues to be shunned the way it is. Bring them into the fold and you'll get more results from THEM than you'll ever get from Saudi Arabia.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:27PM
Sea_Cow at 3:06PM, June 13, 2007
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The people who want this war to end don't hate the troops. Actually, I think that a soldier would rather be safe at home with their family than out on some God-forsaken warzone getting blown to bits. One other thing.

This guy said we should vote for Bush because “Kerry is a hippy.” So a candidate preffering peace to senseless death is a bad thing? Wow. This world is getting seriously messed up.
I am so happy to finally be back home
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:24PM
iagojester at 6:54AM, June 14, 2007
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ozoneocean
The fact is though Iago that Iraq posed no threat to anyone except its own people-just like the Sudan, Burma, Indonesia, Belarus and countless other countries. But after the invasion the place fell apart, it is a massive failure on every single level. It is a failed attempt at old style muscular US foreign policy from the past, the kind of thing that worked so badly with Vietnam, and Cuba, and worked so well with Panama, Nicaragua, the Philippines, Laos, Grenada, etc.

It had nothing at all to do with “genocide” or WMD, this was a strategic war for positioning, the securing of resources, and intimidation. It hasn't been successful. The US can not just pull out, you're right, but they'd do better to work WITH Iran and Syria than against them, those countries aren't really as evil as they're made out to be, and Iran will never, ever improve if it continues to be shunned the way it is. Bring them into the fold and you'll get more results from THEM than you'll ever get from Saudi Arabia.


*nod* I agree with you. I really can't say I know the cause of the war, but what you say is naturally logical. As for the working with Iran… I doubt that will come about. For one, America would have to swallow its pride, and that is not easily done, and for another, Iran doesn't bend to our whims. They are not a country that is used to negotiating. It usually gets what it wants. I think it would be lovely if all those countries magically got along and chipped in, but I don't see it happening in the near future, especially because (as you say) the US is using such a strong arm tactic, and letting up on that might cause the already built structure to topple.
…all conjectures, really. But I like what you've said. Thanks for voicing it in such an articulate manner.

~*~Fated Feather~*~
Pirates, art history, and time travel- things could get messy.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:55PM
Insanity at 7:57PM, June 15, 2007
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The only reason Bush isn't gonna get impeached is because everyone knows Cheney's worse.

AwesomeUnicorn
I feel a little bit like Hitler right now, too.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:01PM
monsterfriend at 3:50PM, June 23, 2007
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bush sucks he sends people off to war and sits safely behind his desk also he has a year left so they're is no point impeaching him despite i love him to leave
Zoey: i need some chinese lets go to the nail salon

Holly: Uh Zoey they'll kind of freak if a zombie starts eating the nail
lady

Zoey: Fine lets get mexican they deliver with miracle grow
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:07PM

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