Debate and Discussion

Can A Positive Spiritual Topic Survive in D & D?
dueeast at 1:38PM, May 20, 2009
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Based on my experience and briefly glancing at the most recent list of topics and the generally typical answers, which are almost always by the same exact people, I would submit, in a word: NO.

I'm glad for the occasional nice/positive word by Hawk or Ozoneocean, etc. but this is no longer a debate forum, not really. It may as well be re-titled “The Christianity/God/Religion Hate Club.” That's what it's devolved (pardon the pun) into.

I've watched over the last couple of years as the conversation tactics have shifted from lively debate to overwhelm by sheer numbers to a crowd of the same perspective debating what they already believe. It's silly and this is why I participate less and less in any part of this forum. I don't need the aggravation or disappointment when I check in to see what's going on.

It would actually be interesting if someone could have a positive conversation on a spiritual/God/Christianity-based topic and those people not get ripped to shreds by those who don't believe in a deity or don't care for religion. I'd like to see it happen. I rarely get jaded by things but this forum is an exception…
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:18PM
Freegurt at 2:02PM, May 20, 2009
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I'd have to agree with you on that. But that seems to be the trend anywhere on the internet really.

I myself am religious and would like to post my views and thoughts. But of course, the last time I did that, I was deemed as being a ‘brain-washed idiot who lets the media think for me’. Rather than dignify the internet with another chance to hate on me for my opinions, I let it be.

Plus, I don't want the forums to waste away to “You're stupid!”"No you're stupid!". I obviously show a lot of distaste for this kind of thing, because I get enough of it from the real world. I'm not trying to hate on any non-religious folk. I really don't want to…but I guess you could say I've become bitter.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:31PM
kyupol at 2:19PM, May 20, 2009
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This forum is mostly the liberal left wing crowd that for some reason tends to despise God and religion. I assume they do that is because of the intense hate for Bush and the neocons that they start hating EVERYTHING their supporters stand for and it includes being a Christian.

Christianity gets associated with George Bush (he isn't a Christian btw. Watch “Dark Secrets of the Bohemian Grove”).


Also, there seems to be this push towards creating a secular humanist society.

Why?

Its because at least the Christians placed value on the family and they had a moral code. At least the Christians believed (to an extent) that all humans are spiritual beings and there's an afterlife in the end that will reward you for good and punish you for evil.

If you believe that you are just another animal that evolved from an ape. And that there is nothing else. That there is no such thing as God or heaven or hell or the spiritual side of things.

I don't see any meaning to this life if that was the case. Another human being would become of less value in my eyes because afterall, he/she is just another animal and is not a spiritual being.

But why devalue the life of the human being?

Its simple. Its because there is a plan in the works to reduce the population to 500,000,000. You need a society that doesn't take it as a big deal to lose their fellow humans.



Also read Henry Kissinger's NSSM 200 document.

And also notice the amount of simulated murders of humans in movies and tv. And compare that to simulated murders of dogs, cats, and other animals.

Why is that? Its to DE-VALUE YOUR LIFE.


And before you attack me for being one of those “brainwashed Christians”, I don't even call myself a Christian.

I am a spiritual but non-religious person.

NOW UPDATING!!!
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:26PM
Skullbie at 2:27PM, May 20, 2009
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Dueeast
but this is no longer a debate forum, not really. It may as well be re-titled "The Christianity/God/Religion Hate Club.
Sounds more like you've been filtering your view to see all the ‘bad’ posts (a.k.a religious bashing). I can see the exact opposite of this topic being brought up in a religious forum, ‘can a positive atheist topic survive in ___?’ with the same answer.

Religion is a hot debate topic, and in this modern thinking day and age it's in the hot seat. People are starting to see there is hypocrisy and general weirdness in the bibles teachings(i mean sheesh it's from a time when people thought the earth was flat) and even in religious ranks (sheltering pedophiles, religious wars, hating homosexuals, having jewel encrusted popes, etc) This is not just from Atheists but also from people born and raised on the word of god, who wish to follow god but also feel the need to question the way to do so.

And Freegurt non-religious people go through the exact same thing as you do when ‘debating’ with someone religious, they too have run into morons that fling ‘yur stoopid dur!’ poo-poo and only serve to make them detest religion more.

I also think the internet is the pan for the oil and fire, you're going to get burned if you don't know what you're doing.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:47PM
Dark Pascual at 2:53PM, May 20, 2009
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The thing is that Religon/Spirituality and Sexuality are both of the most intimate and personal issues that you could touch. EVER.

Nobody should tell you how you should experience your Sexuality. Same thing goes for your Spirituality.

You should live (or not live) your spiritual live in the best way you could find. But that doesn't mean that the philosohpy or belief system that suits you better or gave you the answers is the best for the guy next to you.

Every person is a world and every one of us should search our own answers and our own truths. We could try to help each other in this, but how we face our spirituality is only to us to find…

Most of the times (IMO) is not really a matter of anything but arrogance…we have problems to accept that a point of view that is totally oposite to ours is making somebody happy or satisfied…

I know that is difficult to defend Religion when so many atrocities have been comited in its name. But Religion is only an idea. Is not good or bad per se…is people who commit mistakes and do horrible things and is people who used wrong…

Used wrong, Religion is a horrible thing, but is also something wonderful that could do a lot for others…

I have seen the good on both the religious and the atheist point of views (My mom is Catholic and my dad is Atheist…), and also I know how bad and destructive could be both perspectives.

But every person should use their own tools to find their own answers…
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:07PM
patrickdevine at 2:56PM, May 20, 2009
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For a second I thought you were refering to Dungeons and Dragons! Hey, spiritual fulfillment's a bit much to expect from a table-top RPG!

I'll be straight with ya, I don't consider myself Christian but I don't have a problem with Christianity. I'm perfectly OK with other peoples' spiritual beliefs as long as they don't insist that I must agree with them. This is why I tend to not weigh in on religious discussions here as a general rule.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:41PM
Ryan_Scott at 2:57PM, May 20, 2009
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We all know that the internet is a great medium for voicing our opinions easily… That's why we love it right? But it also comes with a greater audience willing to either politely question your opinions, or abuse them, or anywhere in between.

you might even come across idiots who like to say MOTHERFUCKER at random and for no apparant reason.

Our unique opinions and ways of viewing the world and expressing ourselves is what makes us at the same time great and awful.

Debate will always devolve into mindless rambling as more people jump onto the band wagon.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:15PM
DAJB at 3:06PM, May 20, 2009
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You can voice an opinion on anything on an internet forum and be labelled ignorant/brain-washed/bigoted etc. The problem, I suppose, is that those who might be willing to participate in reasoned argument tend to stop posting once the “haters” enter the fray.

One of the first debate threads I remember seeing here at DD was not one criticising Christians or Christianity, but one denouncing atheists for having no moral code and not thinking deeply about issues of life or faith. It cuts both ways and it's certainly not limited to religious issues, either. Political views are regularly dismissed out of hand by those who hold different opinions.

The reality is, no-one is going to change anyone else's opinion in a debate conducted over the internet. You can exchange views (and I happen to believe it's always interesting to hear other people's opinions, especially if they're different from your own!) but, sooner or later, you reach the point where the arguments become repetitive or one side starts to become abusive. At that point, I find it's better to leave the debate, rather than get dragged down into the mud-slingng. If someone is being deliberately offensive, readers can see that and draw their own conclusions about the person concerned.

Besides, even if the final posts in a thread have degenerated into ill-informed rants, as long as the points raised along the way have made people think, it's not been entirely fruitless!
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:03PM
dueeast at 3:07PM, May 20, 2009
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Hi Skullbie!

I have to say, you prove my point. Please…seriously…show me one topic in Drunk Duck's Debate and Discussion where some positive discussion occurred concerning some aspect of Christianity or God or even spirituality. There isn't, and that's why in general people of these beliefs don't post here anymore. They've tried and it's not worth it. There's automatically a TON of assumptions (“they believed in flat earth” - the Bible's historical facts go back over 2500+ years, superceding the flat earth argument/medieval days by over 1000+ years).

I can't be filtering “bad” posts when there aren't any good posts. Everything is filled with hatred and loathing towards anything involving God or Christianity or religion.

I'm not saying these beliefs shouldn't be questioned at all. What I'm saying is, it would be nice if they would be tolerated AT ALL. And aside from a rare few souls here, it is decidedly not tolerated.

Btw, I also feel it's wrong if people do a similar gang up on atheists or agnosticss, for that matter. B)

Skullbie
Dueeast
but this is no longer a debate forum, not really. It may as well be re-titled "The Christianity/God/Religion Hate Club.
Sounds more like you've been filtering your view to see all the ‘bad’ posts (a.k.a religious bashing). I can see the exact opposite of this topic being brought up in a religious forum, ‘can a positive atheist topic survive in ___?’ with the same answer.

Religion is a hot debate topic, and in this modern thinking day and age it's in the hot seat. People are starting to see there is hypocrisy and general weirdness in the bibles teachings(i mean sheesh it's from a time when people thought the earth was flat) and even in religious ranks (sheltering pedophiles, religious wars, hating homosexuals, having jewel encrusted popes, etc) This is not just from Atheists but also from people born and raised on the word of god, who wish to follow god but also feel the need to question the way to do so.

And Freegurt non-religious people go through the exact same thing as you do when ‘debating’ with someone religious, they too have run into morons that fling ‘yur stoopid dur!’ poo-poo and only serve to make them detest religion more.

I also think the internet is the pan for the oil and fire, you're going to get burned if you don't know what you're doing.

last edited on July 14, 2011 12:18PM
Hawk at 3:37PM, May 20, 2009
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Oh goodness.

Let's face it, it's popular to hate religion right now.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:46PM
El Cid at 3:40PM, May 20, 2009
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I'm new to this forum, so I can't comment on all the religion topics as a whole, but from the one that I've actually been involved in, I think I probably read more pro-Christian posts than critical ones. Christians should get out of the habit of perceiving every inquiry or critical statement about their beliefs as an insult and instead view it as an opportunity to share their beliefs and to educate. A debate does not consist of one person saying “I believe in such and such” and then a bunch of people agreeing with him. You have to expect to hear and consider conflicting viewpoints.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:20PM
El Cid at 3:44PM, May 20, 2009
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Hawk
Oh goodness.

Let's face it, it's popular to hate religion right now.

Only ten percent of the U.S. population does not have some kind of religious belief. You guys can drop the “victim” act any time now.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:20PM
Black_Kitty at 3:58PM, May 20, 2009
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Here's the way I see it: I am not out to educate, convert, or convince anyone. I am interested in sharing, exploring, and thinking about other ideas though.

However I have never been in a discussion about religion without someone looking for a fight. When people start calling things in the Bible crap, suggest that people who believe in religion brainless, or ask me to apologize for things I haven't done, then I can see where this is going. It may not have been the intention but really, if you think my thoughts are stupid, there's really nothing constructive to talk about.

It is not the criticism but the snide little remarks and the subtle choice of words used. Attaching “hey I'm just curious” at the end of a post doesn't excuse anyone of anything. It's the equivalent of a racist going “I'm not racist! I have a black friend!”
  
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:24AM
Hawk at 4:09PM, May 20, 2009
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El Cid
Only ten percent of the U.S. population does not have some kind of religious belief. You guys can drop the “victim” act any time now.

You see, I've seen it as the other way around lately. The media treatment and the posts in this message board make it sound like a lot more than 10%.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:46PM
El Cid at 4:15PM, May 20, 2009
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I'd say if you're really that upset by someone's tone or “snide remarks,” it's best just to tell them so and that you'd prefer they use some other word choice. In and of itself, it's not an excuse not to engage in a debate or to dodge a salient issue that's been brought up. But seriously, if you're going to debate something like religion, or war, or whatever, you should be prepared to hear words like “crap” getting thrown around from time to time.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:20PM
El Cid at 4:19PM, May 20, 2009
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Hawk
You see, I've seen it as the other way around lately. The media treatment and the posts in this message board make it sound like a lot more than 10%.

I'd agree with you there; much of the mainstream media seems to be part of some liberal intellectual clique, or maybe it's just their writers, I dunno. But you can rest easy; Christians are in no danger of going extinct in any of our lifetimes.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:20PM
Black_Kitty at 4:31PM, May 20, 2009
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To me it is an excuse to not engage in a debate. As far as I'm concerned, the pool is polluted. If you think a person's view is stupid, why would you want to hear it?

I'm not suggesting people can't disagree. It's not really a discussion if there isn't some form of disagreement or difference in view. However there has to be an understanding between everyone involved that this isn't the formation of a lynch mob here.

If a discussion starts off with “hey those (insert group here) have such silly views! I can't believe they actually think that! I mean, no offense but they probably don't know any better. Hey! Is there anyone from (insert group here) who could explain?” then that's a big blaring red alarm. If I was from that group, I wouldn't exactly trip over myself to jump in on that discussion.
  
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:24AM
isukun at 4:44PM, May 20, 2009
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It isn't so much the media as it is that you tend to find the most vocal people in any argument as those people at the extreme poles. Atheists tend to be fairly vocal about their lack of belief and it isn't uncommon for them to criticize others for what they consider to be a stupid or misguided faith. Likewise, your most vocal advocates of religion, tend to be your extreme fundamentalists, and they don't really make up the majority of Christians. The vast majority of people find religion to be a back burner issue or something personal that they don't need to explain to others.

Since the extremes tend to be most often represented, people just assume they are arguing against those extremes.

But seriously, if you're going to debate something like religion, or war, or whatever, you should be prepared to hear words like “crap” getting thrown around from time to time.

It's one thing to criticize a religion directly for it's particular form of faith. It is something else to pool believers together based on the wrongdoings of a few or attack an individual personally simply BECAUSE they have faith. That seems to more often than not be the direction these discussions go in. For an example, just check Mr Lostman's posts in the Christianity thread. There is a definite air of arrogance there and he seemed more intent on making believers look stupid than to actually prove a point. At that point, it's not an argument, it's just abuse, and I can understand why people wouldn't want to jump into that kind of discussion.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:04PM
isukun at 4:57PM, May 20, 2009
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It isn't so much the media as it is that you tend to find the most vocal people in any argument as those people at the extreme poles. Atheists tend to be fairly vocal about their lack of belief and it isn't uncommon for them to criticize others for what they consider to be a stupid or misguided faith. Likewise, your most vocal advocates of religion, tend to be your extreme fundamentalists, and they don't really make up the majority of Christians. The vast majority of people find religion to be a back burner issue or something personal that they don't need to explain to others.

Since the extremes tend to be most often represented, people just assume they are arguing against those extremes.

But seriously, if you're going to debate something like religion, or war, or whatever, you should be prepared to hear words like “crap” getting thrown around from time to time.

It's one thing to criticize a religion directly for it's particular form of faith. It is something else to pool believers together based on the wrongdoings of a few or attack an individual personally simply BECAUSE they have faith. That seems to more often than not be the direction these discussions go in. For an example, just check Mr Lostman's posts in the Christianity thread. There is a definite air of arrogance there and he seemed more intent on making believers look stupid than to actually prove a point. At that point, it's not an argument, it's just abuse, and I can understand why people wouldn't want to jump into that kind of discussion.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:04PM
bravo1102 at 5:04PM, May 20, 2009
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It is filtering and only seeing what you want to see. Sorry, but I've seen this happen again and again.

No amount of evidence can convert the faithful. So we end up debating in circles. The same arguments get brought out on both sides, then come the insults because the faithful have their faith on both sides.

My faith rests on evidence, so shoot me for thinking the truth can only be what is can be discovered through research as opposed to dogma from on high. :) No amount of falisification of the evidence in the Bible will prove it false to the faithful.

I respect everyone's opinion no matter how weird it may be. Afterall, people do believe in weird things. But never ask the faithful to read Michael Shermer or any other skeptic whether it's ghosts, UFOs or religion. They won't. :) They filter out what does not agree with their point of view and see only what they believe in already. (too many studies to bother citing)

The whole subject has a lot more to it than can be discussed here, Here you can only have simplistic abstracts. I've been accused of over-generalizing more than once. I'd love to present a formal paper with references etc, but I am not going to footnote an internet post or subject anyone to a 100 page paper. (A 100 page comic is bad enough :) ) I've listed bibliographies and I doubt anyone has looked up any of the books because they just might disagree with what you believe. And with all the commentaries written on the Bible just quoting scripture only proves your faith because if I look deep enough I will find some theologian (not agnostic or skeptic) who disagrees. But this is an internet discussion forum not a post -graduate theology class.

And of course I'm right because my bookshelf includes works from both sides. But I also know that tomorrow I could find out I was wrong. Are the faithful willing to say the same? ;)

And I love the faithful because religious faith can be so beautiful even if I do not share it.

(recommended reading this week: So Help me God: The Founding fathers and the First Great Battle over Church and State by Forrest Church)
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:33AM
Chernobog at 8:54PM, May 20, 2009
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Eh, sometimes I tend to think the best thing you can say about issues of contextual religion is absolutely nothing, particularly where the internet is concerned. I also believe that when these topics get started, it's genuinely for the sake of someone's smug ego or a love of easy bake trollish melodrama. How many times do you see on similar heated topics some random person types /popcorn?

Moderate thought/behavior is not in vogue. Just look at many leaders, political, religious, or otherwise. Loudmouths get attention, but they're hardly sagacious for it.

Religion, politics… maybe even philosophy; things you hold sacred that tend to involve a central theme of controlling someone else for their or your benefit, make for great arguments but little insight. A war based in context will always be fought, but rarely won.
 
 
“You tell yourself to just
enjoy the process,” he added. “That whether you succeed or fail, win or
lose, it will be fine. You pretend to be Zen. You adopt detachment, and
ironic humor, while secretly praying for a miracle.”
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:41AM
megan_rose at 1:25AM, May 21, 2009
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Dark Pascual
Nobody should tell you how you should experience your Sexuality. Same thing goes for your Spirituality.

That is one of the wisest things I've read on the internet lately. Bravo!


My $.02 on the matter:
I'm not religious, and tend to agree with the non-religious people, but even I think there's a rather large amount of anti-religious sentiment on here. I admit, I've contributed a little bit to that, but it's gotten to the point that even I'm thinking “Geez, lay off them. Let them believe what they want.” Anyone with pro-religious views is quickly shot down on this board.

But this board isn't the world. Go out into real life, and it's quite the opposite. And maybe this is because I'm from a town that is saturated with religion, but in real life here, not having religion is a minority. Those who don't have religion have to defend themselves to people a lot, and we get so used to constantly defending ourselves, that we can go a bit overboard.

When we get on the board after dealing with all this real-life anti-anti-religious stuff, and we see one person pulling out some of the very anti-atheist stuff, 20 people rush in to prove them wrong.

I would love to see some more respect coming from people on both sides of the issue, but this is the internet, so my breath is not being held for this.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:59PM
dueeast at 7:36AM, May 21, 2009
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Hi Megan Rose,

Thanks for your perspective, that actually makes a lot of sense (the part about dealing with real life disagreements/being in the minority with atheist/agnostic views and then coming here and “unloading” ), and I appreciate it. Maybe if we all make some effort, we can make some changes here. I do believe it's possible.

I would love to have a two-sided conversation and keep things positive, like is attempting to happen in this thread. At first I was just frustrated, but I actually am glad I raised the question. Thanks to all who have been trying to keep this civilized. B)

megan_rose
Dark Pascual
Nobody should tell you how you should experience your Sexuality. Same thing goes for your Spirituality.

That is one of the wisest things I've read on the internet lately. Bravo!


My $.02 on the matter:
I'm not religious, and tend to agree with the non-religious people, but even I think there's a rather large amount of anti-religious sentiment on here. I admit, I've contributed a little bit to that, but it's gotten to the point that even I'm thinking “Geez, lay off them. Let them believe what they want.” Anyone with pro-religious views is quickly shot down on this board.

But this board isn't the world. Go out into real life, and it's quite the opposite. And maybe this is because I'm from a town that is saturated with religion, but in real life here, not having religion is a minority. Those who don't have religion have to defend themselves to people a lot, and we get so used to constantly defending ourselves, that we can go a bit overboard.

When we get on the board after dealing with all this real-life anti-anti-religious stuff, and we see one person pulling out some of the very anti-atheist stuff, 20 people rush in to prove them wrong.

I would love to see some more respect coming from people on both sides of the issue, but this is the internet, so my breath is not being held for this.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:18PM
bravo1102 at 8:27AM, May 21, 2009
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It's so easy to bash something you don't understand. It's really hard to see the other person's opinion and objectively consider it's validity as opposed to your own.

A lot of the negativity comes from defensive reaction as if someone is personally attacking someone's closely held belief.

I am very, very, very irreverent. It's that Mark Twain and Great Agnostic freethinker thing. I can only point out what my expereince and research has shown me and I try to do with a sense of humor. That's my karma.

Whatever you believe is okay and Megan is right about the real world versus internet thing (or that postgraduate classroom) How many times have you been called a spawn of Satan or gotten shocked stares because of your beliefs? Secularists and humanists are demonized every day but then so are fundmentalists, but no one here is the latter. I've debated them and what is not said is more important there than what is said.

And if an argument follows the same path time after time isn't one likely to get frustrated?
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:33AM
Aurora Moon at 8:50AM, May 21, 2009
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megan_rose
But this board isn't the world. Go out into real life, and it's quite the opposite. And maybe this is because I'm from a town that is saturated with religion, but in real life here, not having religion is a minority. Those who don't have religion have to defend themselves to people a lot, and we get so used to constantly defending ourselves, that we can go a bit overboard.

When we get on the board after dealing with all this real-life anti-anti-religious stuff, and we see one person pulling out some of the very anti-atheist stuff, 20 people rush in to prove them wrong.

I have to agree with this assessment as well.

I remember the ole' days as an teenager when I used to blog some extremely anti-religious stuff. I made a lot of anti-christian posts that actually upset a lot of Christians on different forums, but I didn't care too much about their feelings at all.

I acted in such a manner because I went to this boarding school that, while it was supposed to be secular, a lot of the school staff was still very religious anyway. And they actually had this priest who would come to school every Wednesday to talk to us about issues, etc.

Some of their beliefs were pushed to far to the point of being insane… and they expressed them in what you could say was a very unchristian way.

I was a goth (still is, just a little bit ;) ), and I liked being an goth very much because it gave me a way to vent all my teenage angst and moods while sharing that experience with other goth kids who were going though the same thing. plus I really loved the fashion sense! I actually still keep some of the clothing because of how well they flatter me.

But back then…. a lot of the school staff thought this:
Goth=Satanist/occult worshiper!!

They didn't listen to me when I tried to tell them that the belief about all goths being satanist or occult worshipers were false… that there was actually a fair amount of Christian/catholic/whatever goths. http://www.christiangoth.com/

So just because I didn't look like their perceived image of a “good, god-worshiping girl”, they went out of their way to subtly bully me, and even actually econgored some of the older kids to pick on me! they'd turn their back when the older kids, like the seniors, would tease me about my appearance, etc.

some of the teachers/dorm counselor weren't exactly subtle at times about it nether. there was this one dorm Counselor I really hated in particular, who would constantly tell me that I was going to hell for the way I dressed… that I had to be some kind of whore or some crap like that…. even though everyone knew that I was planning to keep my virginity until I was in college, when I felt that I would be more mature and wiser enough to pick the right sort of guy to be with. And guess what? I didn't even lose it until my 3th year in college. What's more, the guy and I'm still together after many years. Guess I'm not such a whore after all, huh?

If I got angry and told them off, I would get in deep trouble, etc…. so the only times I could let out my anger was when I went online.

so when I was online, I really let every christian sighted on the forums I went to, just exactly what I thought of their religion and beliefs at the time.

in a way, I imagine some of the older posters here also went though simlar experiences, personally meeting Christians who were less than Christian…. and hadn't still quite lost their resentment and cyincism from then.
I'm on hitatus while I redo one of my webcomics. Be sure to check it out when I'n done! :)
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:10AM
TheMidge28 at 10:48AM, May 21, 2009
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it all boils down to one word: Respect.
Respect for others POV/Beliefs.
If there is no respect for the other posters POV then it not going to be a healthy discussion or debate.
This goes for religious folk towards non-religious folk's beliefs or worldview.
and of course vice versa.

If you are set and feel strongly about your POV then one should respect that others feel the same and in doing so put your feelings on a shelf knowing where you stand and allow for the consideration of this other perspective.
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:25PM
Product Placement at 1:57PM, May 21, 2009
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My opinion on the matter has flown around all over the place. I was raised to be open minded and thus has been known to change my mind on occasion.

My country doesn't have a separation of church and state. In fact, we have a state church which is based on Lutheran teachings. The elementary school has bible studies when we're the age of 13 just before we get confirmed. A small percentage of your taxes goes to the church. This can be controlled based on your religion. You can formally register yourself as a member of a religion whether it's Catholicism, Buddhism, Aesir, or any other and that percentage of your tax money, normally reserved for the state church, goes to the appropriate institution. Also, registered Atheists have their tax money diverted to the National University. Around my confirmation age, I was very spiritual. A priest took great interest in me and was trying to groom me to become a priest.

Anyways… I came to resent organized religion after studying about the dark ages and more specifically what organized religion did to my country. The catholic church did a thorough job at destroying all records of our old faith and demonizing terms that used to refer to the Aesir religion. Words like “Blóta” used to mean a prayer. Now it means curse. What's worse is that the Danish king announced in the 16 century that from now on we should all stop being Catholic and become Lutheran. The reason behind this change of heart of his wasn't some spiritual enlightenment. It was because the Lutheran philosophy separated the church from the Roman headquarters. The church became the property of the king. For the longest time, a tax called the tenth existed in my country. Tenth of all you made had to be given to the church. Centuries of such practice had made the churches in Iceland considerably wealthy. What happened when those churches stopped being Roman property and became the Kings? He took that wealth away. Just one more thing that he did to bleed the country dry.

This has always stuck with me. I don't hate spirituality and faith in essence. I just hate the form of organized religion. For the past few years I've caught myself unleashing that anger towards extremists who seem to do more harm then good for God's sake. Muslims who thought it was good idea to kidnap planes full of innocent people, taking down business centers, killing thousands. Creationists, undermining the education of children by attempting to discredit evolution and promoting Genesis as an alternative education material. Crowds of Hindus tearing down Christian or Muslim neighborhoods for slightest provocations killing hundreds. These are the ugly faces of religion. I hate that it still exists.

I really wish you could just sing the old saying “Can't we just all get along?” but to many people are to narrow minded to consider otherwise.

Please, don't think that I'm trying to attack anyone here personally with these words. These are just my sincerest feelings on the matter.
Those were my two cents.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 2:50PM
Product Placement at 7:11AM, May 22, 2009
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Oh, boy, I have a distinct feeling that these kinds of topics will not go quietly away.

The Bible bill. Rep. Paul Broun declares that 2010 shall be the year of the bible.
Those were my two cents.
If you have any other questions, please deposit a quarter.
This space for rent.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:50PM
Dark Pascual at 9:02AM, May 22, 2009
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Product Placement
Oh, boy, I have a distinct feeling that these kinds of topics will not go quietly away.

The Bible bill. Rep. Paul Broun declares that 2010 shall be the year of the bible.

I thought the next year will be Year of the Tiger…go figure…

If you are Christian and its declared Year of the Bible, well, do something nice for your Bible, take it to a spa or a nice restaurant, give it a present. Celebrate the famous Bibles of history, like Gutenberg's Bible…and Mother Teresa's Bible…and the Bible that appeared on The Simpsons…

I you are not Christian, just wish the best year to any Bible that you know…

But do the same when its declared Year of the Coran, Year of the Torah, Year of the Mahabharata, Year of the Necronomicon, Year of the Popol Vuh (that will be 2012) and Year of the Dianetics or the Tale of all mighty Lord Xenu…
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:07PM
dueeast at 9:29AM, May 22, 2009
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I will buy my Bible a nicer cover/jacket next year, then. B)

But I think we're getting off-topic a little..?

I mean, it's interesting to better understand some of your individual experiences that led to how you presently feel. And I feel for those of you who have been victimized, it makes me hurt for/empathize with you. I still wish we could have a discussion about the positive aspects of what I call REAL Christians or real Christianity, and that would be difficult for those who have never really encountered one.

Please believe me, possibly the biggest bane of my existence is so-called Christians who don't live what they're taught (hypocrites) or who have been taught wrong by people/ministers/priests with agendas that are contrary to Jesus' teachings. In both cases, people get hurt and who gets the blame? All Christians, because of the misguided actions of some.


Dark Pascual
Product Placement
Oh, boy, I have a distinct feeling that these kinds of topics will not go quietly away.

The Bible bill. Rep. Paul Broun declares that 2010 shall be the year of the bible.

I thought the next year will be Year of the Tiger…go figure…

If you are Christian and its declared Year of the Bible, well, do something nice for your Bible, take it to a spa or a nice restaurant, give it a present. Celebrate the famous Bibles of history, like Gutenberg's Bible…and Mother Teresa's Bible…and the Bible that appeared on The Simpsons…

I you are not Christian, just wish the best year to any Bible that you know…

But do the same when its declared Year of the Coran, Year of the Torah, Year of the Mahabharata, Year of the Necronomicon, Year of the Popol Vuh (that will be 2012) and Year of the Dianetics or the Tale of all mighty Lord Xenu…
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:18PM

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