Debate and Discussion

chaos magic
mykill at 6:38PM, Dec. 19, 2005
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http://chaosmagic.com

I've been getting back into the occult and found chaos magic a good fit. It's particularly appealing to me as a cartoonist. Grant Morrison is a big time Chaos magician, his ‘the Invisables’ was, in fact, a hypersigil magic spell.

Now, Chaos magic isn't necessarily safe and certainly isn't for everyone. If you find yourself on the otherside of an existential crisis you're likely to find it a good fit.

It consists of a meta paradigm - that all belief systems have some validity and if you can manipulate your ability to believe - you can practice any tradition that works for you. Even Roman Catholicism.

The other half is the invention of Austin Spare, a kick ass illustrator and mystic who invented a simple sigil system of magic. Grant Morrison does a good job of introducing someone to bsic sigil magic. http://www.grant-morrison.com/pop_magic_part_one.htm
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:09PM
Chameloncholic at 4:01AM, Dec. 20, 2005
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“Magical masturbation is more fun than the secular hand shandy, and all it requires is this: at the moment of orgasm, you must see the image of your chosen sigil blazing before the eyes in your mind and project it outwards into the ethereal mediaspheres and logoverses where desires swarm and condense into flesh.

The sigil can be written on paper, on your hand or your chest, on the forehead of a lover or wherever you think it will be most effective.”

Sign me up dude.

On a serious note I am a big Morrison fan and I will have another browse through my Invisibles collection at the earliest convenience.

Any sign of these elements in Seven Soldiers?
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:39AM
Anonymous at 3:13PM, Dec. 20, 2005
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Phantom_Penguin
I dont know if i can fight the laughter wanting to come out of me.

That's very nice of you, but before you bust up, you'd do well to know that the world of the occult and paganism in general is vast, wide reaching, and has been around for far longer the christianity. (and in itself makes no less sense than any other mainstream religion). Serious pagans aren't 15 year old chubby girls calling themselves wiccan to get attention.
The world can be manipulated through mind, course of action, and belief in general.
And by the way, serious practitioners aren't the ones waving around a magic wand and expecting a puff of smoke and something to happen. Most ‘spells’ if you choose to call them that take long periods of time to take effect, and arguably, the largest part of a spell is mental. By casting a spell or performing a ritual, you are assigning yourself a goal, after which you work towards the goal with the confidence that you will reach it. For many people, it's nothing more than peace of mind. Others believe that the divine powers guide them through spell work, and others manipulate energy to gain what they want. There are many, many different kinds of occult practices.
Sigils in themselves are interesting, but I've never actually worked with any personally. I've never dabbled with Chaos magic at all, far as I know, but I've been out of the loop for quite a while now.

A friend of mine and I are building a metal forge, mostly for swords/knives and things of that nature. We talked about empowering the base of the forge with sigil work, but haven't actually gotten around to it. However, there was talk of adding sigils to some of our blades.
last edited on July 14, 2011 10:53AM
zactheninja at 3:48PM, Dec. 20, 2005
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I remember hearing once.
“Wiccans are witches that don't like being called witches”

Serious pagans scare me, Guest.

Coincidences.
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:54PM
mykill at 5:31PM, Dec. 20, 2005
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Laughter is, in fact a terribly important part of Chaos magic. After a very intense ceremony with much psychodrama, one of the best ways to banish spirits and hocus pocus or what not - is to LAUGH.

THE PSYCHIC CENSOR, this is the part of your brain that doesn't believe in magic. You're not supposed to not be skeptical - you use skepticism to banish spirits and demons.

Chaos magic isn't about believing anything permanently, indeed it's catch phrase is from Discoridanism: “Nothing is true. Everything is permitted”. This is what I realized myself when I had my existential crisis (tough coming out process - I'm gay).

It's believing nothing too strongly and thus being able to USE belief.

If you're a skeptic, you can still be a good magician. Follow Grant Morrisons simple instructions and see what happens. People become chaos magicians not because they're gullable - but because they get results and become greedy for more.

I'm in the process of creating a servitor comic that demonstrates how to create a servitor enabled ‘wish’ box. If ya'll want, I can post it here as well as chaosmagic.com .

Yes, all magic can be chalked up to coincidence. Sometime magicians prefer the term “probability hacking”. Aleistar Crowley once suggested that coincidence is the RULE, not the exception it seems to be ‘cause we’re to dimwitted to notice all the connections. On the basis of that thought, practices such as tarot can be explained.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:09PM
mykill at 10:42PM, Dec. 23, 2005
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Chaos magic catch phrase:

Nothing is true.
Everything is permitted.

Before you go off - realize the statement applies to itself as well.

“Tearing apart other people's beliefs” shows you have no idea what I'm talking about. This is about paradigm shifting for no reason other than to achieve a result.

It's not about belief - it's about not believing allowing you to exploit belief. Faith healing works. Witchcraft works. Voodoo works. Whether you want it to or not. It often works best with skeptics. Hide from this reality with atheism and skepticism if you want. Or maybe you can hack probability? Why not give it a shot?

Chaos magic can be about being a paradigm pirate. Pretending to be a ‘witch’ long enough to cast a spell that works - and then laughing and moving on to voodoo. We piss people off by using their magic, having it work - while paying no respect to their dogma.

Don't believe in magic? Don't believe in a spirit? Don't buy “butterfly effect”? It's just a paradigm that cuts of possibility. If you're a serious atheist, may I interest you into selling me your soul “for the hell of it?”
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ccs1989 at 9:47AM, Dec. 24, 2005
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I appreciate the whole ‘idea’ of this stuff…but I don't buy it.
http://ccs1989.deviantart.com

“If one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours.”
-Henry David Thoreau, Walden
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ccs1989 at 1:07PM, Dec. 27, 2005
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Huh. “Ragged Trouser Philosopher”. I'll have to read through all of that. The Conversation With God was very good.
http://ccs1989.deviantart.com

“If one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours.”
-Henry David Thoreau, Walden
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:37AM
ccs1989 at 4:37PM, Dec. 27, 2005
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True. I'd be more of a ‘believer’ if God was like that.
http://ccs1989.deviantart.com

“If one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours.”
-Henry David Thoreau, Walden
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:37AM
ccs1989 at 7:30PM, Dec. 27, 2005
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It's a believable piece. Many of the concepts presented are actually part of some radical science ‘beliefs’. I remeber seeing a show on TV which matched a lot of what that piece said.
http://ccs1989.deviantart.com

“If one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours.”
-Henry David Thoreau, Walden
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:37AM
mykill at 2:34PM, Dec. 28, 2005
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But… What is the reality of the situation in which you find yourself?

Can you know God is real? The account provided in this thread makes no claim of not being fictional - and even were it not - it could be the stuff of dream or delusion, things we do not accept as ‘real’.

Even if you had a biblical experience such as a confrontation with a telepathic burning bush you'd find yourself questioning the reality, or you'd be ready for a padded straight jacket. Any unlikely experience without multiple witnesses and supporting evidence (photos) is exactly bullshit. Witness the reality ‘victims’ of UFO kidnappings find themselves in.

Quantum mechanics suggests you cannot divorce phenomena from its observer, the act of observation itself changes what you're looking at.

By definition as greater than ourselves, God can not be known as real or unreal - we simply do not enjoy the capacity to appreciate God as real or unreal without a leap of faith of some kind.

As for chaos magic and the technique of sigil magic - it's like any other form of religion or magic - the evidence is subjective outside of the realm of ‘proof’. Just try it and see for yourself. When it works it will be undistinguishable from ‘coincidence’ - so only you can benefit from the experience.

You want to ‘heal’ people? You can. I'll point you to Candobl√ɬ© and Macumba (hopw I spelled correctly) techniques from Brasil, which feature highly developed techniques for healing. I reccomend the ‘energy’ model.

A caveat - your healing success may be quite high, but will never feature ‘jesus’ like quickness unless you indulge a Christian paradigm that specializes in exactly that. It requires a very masterful self manipulation of faith.

If you must have hard supporting data, it can be delivered via quantum mechanics.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:09PM
Anonymous at 3:31PM, Jan. 4, 2006
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Phantom_Penguin
Iam not a atheist. But i find it hard to belive some goth kid in his basement can conjure magic powers.

If that's the extent of your understanding of paganism, it's no wonder you don't believe any of it. That's a ploy for attention, not a religion.
Most of the pagans I've met have looked no different than your average person, and act no different either. The only difference is how they choose to worship what they choose to believe.
last edited on July 14, 2011 10:53AM
mykill at 8:49PM, Jan. 11, 2006
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Look up Allan Kardec. The healing system I learned about in a book named “Drum and Candle” about Brazillian pagan practices. Allen Kardec was a big hit in Brazil and his teaching melded with the native paganisms.

The healing technology is a kind of ‘energy work’ I really know very little about.

Candoble is the Brazilian equivelant to Santeria or Voudon, distinct in its flavoring with the influence of Allen Kardec.

Personally I'm working on uniting chaos magic and hoodoo/rootwork. http://luckymojo.com if you want to learn more about African American magic traditions.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:09PM
Ronson at 9:08PM, Jan. 11, 2006
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Like all belief systems, this is as valid as any other. I don't think I'm wired to buy it. But if you can ever show me some real magic, I'd be interested in seeing proof.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:10PM
mykill at 9:54PM, Jan. 11, 2006
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Well, Chaos magicians do include scientists and skeptics in their numbers - but even they are making an exception and placing faith in the principle of magic for reasons of success that clearly COULD BE coincidental.

All the evidence is subjective, so if you want the kind of proof that, say, science demands -it simply doesn't exist.

Mirroring perhaps the reality (so far only relevant to quantum mechanics) that the observer cannot be divorced from the phenomena being observed.

Personally I want to get to a point of ‘confidence’, where I'm usually successful in what I attempt. If I can get there, the closet thing to a proof I can approach is demonstrating a definite “luck” in mathematically defying probability.

In a way tho, that's not even the point. “Coincidence” is everywhere is you look for it quite naturally. What magic offers is the opportunity to feel as if you are playing an active role in what life deals you, and it does focus your intent in such a way it helps to modify your own behavior, believe you CAN modify that behavior - in such a way as to create your own success.

Want to relieve stress at a job interview - cast a spell!

Need to get rid of a troublesome tenant - cast a spell!

Want love - cast a spell.

Casting spells may or may not ‘hack reality’ - but it definitly ‘hacks yourself’. You get to feel as if you ‘did’ something about the problem, and part of you is waiting and expecting for the outcome. Positive thinking for those to whom it doesn't come naturally.

Now, the psychological model promoted by Jung suggests a ‘collective unconscious’. This is the bugaboo championed by Austin Spare. Spare thinks if you can arrive at a state of ‘gnosis’ (as in mastubatory orgasm, tho that's not the only way) while fixing on an abstracted image representing a specific desire - you project that desire to not only your sub conscious - but to the unconscious - and the collective unconscious!

Based on that model, the idea is that, yes, you can hack reality! Start a butterfly effect in the collective unconscious!

So, would you like to feel as if you are participating in how your fate is turning out? Would you enjoy the idea of weilding magical power to influence probability? Why not give it a shot? The worst that could happen is that it doesn't work.

Unless you're very Christian and believe you'll butn in hell. Payer to God can hack reality too tho, so if that's your problem, there's your solution!
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:09PM
Ronson at 11:16PM, Jan. 11, 2006
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So it really isn't much different from the “power of positive thinking” … except that it asserts that there's a “power in negative thinking” as well.

But if I'm getting what you're saying it's used as a focus to acheive a goal you set for yourself. So you couldn't use it to set a goal for someone you don't know (say, for George Bush to stop doing hard drugs, for example).

Which is fine. We all try to see the world work in the way that makes the most sense to us.

But it's a lot less magical the way you say it than the way Mr. Morrison writes it.

I like the making things float through the air/fireball from a wooden stick type of magic. No one ever promises that one though. :D
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:10PM
hpkomic at 11:27PM, Jan. 11, 2006
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I thought you weren't allowed to use magic until you graduated from Hogwarts.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:50PM
mykill at 7:35AM, Jan. 12, 2006
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Using a strict Crowley definition for magic - which threatens to categorize most willed action as such: Magic(k) is the act of producing a result in accordance with will.

So, if what you want is to throw fireballs. May I suggest pyrotechnics? Levitation is best established with stage illusions.

Even the “real deal” Voudon, will indulge stage magic tricks to enhance their ‘performance’.

There is such a thing as a fire elemental. What I know of them is they tend to increase the chance of ‘accidental’ fire - not too cool.

The "dr Strange' stuff is actually…. Well, let's just say ‘astral’ technology is nothing more than REALLY focused imagination - If you want to visualize it a certain way - that's the way it is.

There is mythology relating to certain persons being able to bring forth into concrete reality (for observers to see subjectively) a thing previously just ‘imagined’. Austin Spare relates some personal success in that and shares tales of another who was REALLY good at that).

If you really want a hogwarts experience, there is an online academy of magic. I can't reccomend it tho - it exxagerates its claims and it asks you to pay for material that is FREE else where on the web.

(here's just one example: http://www.hermetics.org/ebooks.html)
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:09PM
magickmaker at 5:38PM, Feb. 13, 2006
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Just something I noticed, and it really doesn't have much to do with the whole “is magic real” thing (I believe it is), but whenever anyone talks about God here, they say he. Now, I'm a Christian (in the loosest sense of the word), but I really and truly believe if God ever claimed gender, it would be female. I know, the Bible calls God “He”, but it was written by men and we have a bias.

Actually, I've always thought of God as a Middle Aged Black Woman.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:50PM
mykill at 7:32AM, Feb. 14, 2006
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The Jewish God, from which Christianity and Islam imitated, is a masculine warrring and jealous God. Jesus provided a sense of God's compassion and 'femeninity" tho.

Magically speaking, a monotheistic deity would have to be an Abraxas (term coined from Carl Jung I think) - a God of all things and representing all things. God then would have to be both male and female.

There is much to argue for a feminine principality tho. Genetically, female is the default, male is the option.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:09PM
blackaby at 9:51AM, Feb. 14, 2006
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Yes, I would like to hear that story.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:23AM
Aurora Moon at 2:48PM, Feb. 14, 2006
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sounds like it'd be one cool comic…
I'm on hitatus while I redo one of my webcomics. Be sure to check it out when I'n done! :)
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:09AM
mlai at 4:21AM, March 9, 2011
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This is one of the few times when I pat myself on the back for my random troll-like urges to necro-surf the last (oldest) few pages of a subforum.

I read that "conversation with God“ essay. Wow. I really enjoyed that. Everyone with an interest in science, sci-fi, and philosophy should read it.

If I was the interviewer in that essay, I would have asked why Level 2 species do not contact Level 1 species, for the purpose of ”prodding“ them more safely through this traumatic phase of evolution. Surely, knowing that we're not alone in the universe, and having a general idea of what to expect, would help us in negotiating the destructive, but necessary, knowledge path.

But I guess it's a matter of timing. It's funny how God basically says ”You want to meet Me? Evolve more first."

FIGHT current chapter: Filling In The Gaps
FIGHT_2 current chapter: Light Years of Gold
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:07PM
kyupol at 5:38PM, March 9, 2011
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Magick really does work.

I'm not sure though if there is some reality towards “spells” or is it just this “law of attraction” (see The Secret and other books) that gets triggered in such a way that things start manifesting.

I made a witch cast a spell to multiply my business profits. Didnt really shift any tactics. Why is it that a 2 months later, my profits were at least DOUBLE? Was it because I had some belief in the power of the spell? Or did I trigger this “law of attraction”? It cant simply be explained away as a placebo or an introduction of new marketing tactics on my end.

And another thing I'm unsure of is if prayer is a form of magick.

I knew someone who is demon-possessed (an ex-girlfriend. I can go on and on here explaining WHY she is demon-possessed.) Without her knowledge, I prayed discretely against the demons. Deep. Focused. Prayer. From behind my keyboard. Suddenly she started telling me (VIA MSN) that there is a buzzing sound in her head and that she feels like tearing my head off but not sure WHY.

The point is, my prayers sure caused some discomfort to the demons inside of her. A few months down the line, relationship deteriorated severely for no apparent reason. She became angrier, bitchier, until at one point with absolutely no provocation she said “you're so boring.” Then she left.

Were my prayers really heard by angels or God or the Holy Spirit or by Jesus himself?

Or is it just my words with focused intent that really cause things to manifest?

In the Bible:
John 1:1
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”

Some proverb not sure of the source:
“Sticks and stones break my bones but words will shatter my soul” - Unknown -

And I've talked to alot of witches. While all of them gave me inconsistencies about the casting of certain spells (what color of candles, what formation of candles, which oil to annoint the candles with, order of lighting the candles, what god or goddess to invoke, etc.), all of them unanimously agree that it is all about YOUR INTENT.



NOW UPDATING!!!
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:27PM
Abt_Nihil at 4:34AM, March 11, 2011
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Generally speaking, it's all about attributing causality. Despite popular belief to the contrary, causality is not an explanatory concept. It is a simple connection made between two events, by stipulating that A causes B. (It might become explanatory by being reliably/scientificially/objectively established, but that's obviously not what we can assume in the cases discussed here.)

In our modern framework of scientific belief, magic is establishing causality between two events which are related by causality alone, without it being (reasonably) apparent that A is sufficient (and in most cases, not even necessary) to B's coming about. It is especially tempting to do so in the case of “wishing that B” and B's coming about. But let's face it: The only connection here is the semantic one: B is part of the semantic content of “wishing that B”, but “wishing that B” is in no way sufficient for B's coming about - except in the trivial case, in which “wishing that B” will result in an action that leads to B's coming about.

“Chaos magic”, to me, seems to be grounded in the trivial truth that things can be brought about by force of will. That the mental has causal power. This exploits the body/soul duality - the mystery about how a causal relation can sustain between something seemingly ethereal and something physical. But again, it's trivial: The mental can have causal power by motivating bodily actions. And this is much better explained by referring to the neurosciences, to theory of action, and to philosophy, than by invoking “magic” as an explanatory paradigm. Because magic simply postulates the causal connection - but it doesn't explain anything. Then again, it probably was never supposed to - maybe all it does is create social patterns. Things to believe in. Creating societies, hierarchies, etc. And it enables Grant Morrison to continue to be the sort of “counterculture spokesperson” he so likes to see himself as. There have always been “countersciences”, but they have always ended in postulates, mysteries, and subjectivities.
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ayesinback at 4:45AM, March 11, 2011
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Abt_Nihil
“Chaos magic”, to me, seems to be grounded in the trivial truth that things can be brought about by force of will. That the mental has causal power. This exploits the body/soul duality - the mystery about how a causal relation can sustain between something seemingly ethereal and something physical.
It's not a power of the mind, but power of the spirit: a big difference.

For those who have difficulty in believing in anything beyond the five senses, who probably deny the existence of any such thing, there's very little point in trying to reveal a world that they'd rather deny. Their compromise point is imagination, the mind - a halfway point of existence. The approach is scientific, that the same circumstances should yield the same results, and if the same results aren't available each time, the reality of the situation is questioned.

It's a very limited view of the world because it denies spirituality.

Magic draws on the spirit of the individual. It is the power of the word combined with intent and it can have very real results. Whether it's good or bad depends on the intent.
under new management
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:14AM
ozoneocean at 6:19AM, March 11, 2011
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Abt_Nihil
Generally speaking, it's all about attributing causality. Despite popular belief to the contrary, causality is not an explanatory concept. It is a simple connection made between two events, by stipulating that A causes B. (It might become explanatory by being reliably/scientificially/objectively established, but that's obviously not what we can assume in the cases discussed here.)
There is an alternative…
If you factor in something like “second sight” or premonition for example. Then you'd perhaps subconsciously foresee B and then when it happened you'd attribute A as the cause because B was in the forefront of your mind when you were doing or thinking about A. :)


Poorly worded I know, but it was a thought I had.
This occurred to me because I often experience things that I attribute to premonition as an easy way to explain them.
The reality is probably that it's not premonition at all but one of either two scenarios:
-Simple dumb luck and coincidence that happens naturally, but when I get a “win” I put far more emphasis on it.
-Much more complicated social conditioning involving factors that are simply just not readily apparent unless one digs deeper. -like when it only seems to rain on weekends, but further investigation reveals that it does indeed rain more on weekends and that it is because human industry moves to a 5 day rhythm, contribution to a build up of dust and micro-particles in the air to a pattern that results in… And so on.
——————-

To give examples: Often I will have a song suddenly stuck in my head, so I'll sit down at my comp, pick the play-list it's in usually that song is the one that plays straight away. The play-lists are always set to random. Sometimes it'll be a few songs I'll want to hear, and despite the list being 100-400 songs deep, it will play a run of the faves that I was thinking of.
Or if I put on five CDs in my old CD player and randomise them the first song to play will be the one that I was thinking of.
-The limitation is that it only happens when the song came to me unbidden and sat in my head.

Another example is that when I was much younger and watched a lot of TV I'd have a strong feeling that a certain movie or TV show or TV series would be coming on TV in the next week on a certain day. I'd wait for the next week's TV guide and then read through the listings and sure enough the movie that I was thinking off would be on, the TV series would be introduced and put in the time slot I was thinking of etc. -Talking about obscure and weird stuff on at unusual times and B-movies on at 1 or 2am in the morning.
(There are other examples not involving entertainment…)

Anyway, to get away from premonition, what was really be going on there?
-It could very well be coincidence. It could be that all the times when I was thinking of a song or TV show and it never came on simply were NOT memorable. When I look back over my memories I only recall all the times when I seemed to have second site and not all the many more that I didn't so that it seems like there was never I time it didn't work! :)

-It could also be a type of behavioural conditioning. With TV often stations will rotate the same films and TV shows or even the same genres of films and TV shows periodically. If I subconsciously caught on to the periodic rhythm they were using I'd be able to “predict” what they would put on next before they announced it.
-With randomised play-lists it could also be that they're really NOT as random as they're supposed to be and that certain track-listings actually get played more often. Those would naturally come more embedded in my brain and when I chose to put on the playlist the higher frequency “radom” track (or tracks) is the one I'd first expect to hear.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:37PM
Abt_Nihil at 8:32AM, March 11, 2011
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Oz: All of that mirrors my own view of these things. Whenever strange coincidences happen, what I will say is: What a strange coincidence! But I'll never attribute it to fate, magic, or the like :p And yes, some strange coincidences actually reveal overlooked causalities.

ayesinback
It's not a power of the mind, but power of the spirit: a big difference.

For those who have difficulty in believing in anything beyond the five senses, who probably deny the existence of any such thing, there's very little point in trying to reveal a world that they'd rather deny. Their compromise point is imagination, the mind - a halfway point of existence. The approach is scientific, that the same circumstances should yield the same results, and if the same results aren't available each time, the reality of the situation is questioned.

It's a very limited view of the world because it denies spirituality.

Magic draws on the spirit of the individual. It is the power of the word combined with intent and it can have very real results. Whether it's good or bad depends on the intent.
Well, I hope you didn't just accuse me of a lack of imagination :p Apparently, as a writer and artist, I spend a lot of time in imagined worlds. But I'm well aware of its limitations.

There is a limitation to what is real and to what is causally effective, and that is most accurately described by the totality of modern natural sciences. I am not limiting reality to what can be perceived, or what can be objectively tested, or some such. I readily acknowledge that mental phenomena are real, that they can be causally effective, that they don't have to be “perceived” in order to be real, etc. But that fact doesn't tear down the wall between what is real and what is imagined. In fact, tearing down this distinction is what makes you lose grasp of imagination in the first place. I deny that a belief in scientific methods as a criterion for what's real means having to oppose imagination or spirituality. (Also, science doesn't rule out singular events! It just means we can't say something reliable about them. A big problem for science is anecdotal knowledge - knowledge that comes from reports of singular events.) What I oppose is a form of spirituality that hinges on weak claims of existence which confound reality and imagination.

That we, as artists and writers, can move people by telling stories, that we can change their mindset and motivate them to do things, that we can communicate in depth, etc., is magic… in a metaphoric sense.

And that I'm stuck on a “halfway point of existence” is a pretty daring assumption! :D
last edited on July 14, 2011 10:44AM
kyupol at 9:02AM, March 11, 2011
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That we, as artists and writers, can move people by telling stories, that we can change their mindset and motivate them to do things, that we can communicate in depth, etc., is magic… in a metaphoric sense.

Ericksonian Hypnosis?

NOW UPDATING!!!
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:27PM
ayesinback at 9:51AM, March 11, 2011
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Abt_Nihil
ayesinback
. . .
For those who have difficulty in believing in anything beyond the five senses, who probably deny the existence of any such thing, there's very little point in trying to reveal a world that they'd rather deny. Their compromise point is imagination, the mind - a halfway point of existence. The approach is scientific, that the same circumstances should yield the same results, and if the same results aren't available each time, the reality of the situation is questioned.

It's a very limited view of the world because it denies spirituality.

Magic draws on the spirit of the individual. It is the power of the word combined with intent and it can have very real results. Whether it's good or bad depends on the intent.
Well, I hope you didn't just accuse me of a lack of imagination :p Apparently, as a writer and artist, I spend a lot of time in imagined worlds. But I'm well aware of its limitations.

There is a limitation to what is real and to what is causally effective, and that is most accurately described by the totality of modern natural sciences. I am not limiting reality to what can be perceived, or what can be objectively tested, or some such. I readily acknowledge that mental phenomena are real, that they can be causally effective, that they don't have to be “perceived” in order to be real, etc. But that fact doesn't tear down the wall between what is real and what is imagined. In fact, tearing down this distinction is what makes you lose grasp of imagination in the first place. I deny that a belief in scientific methods as a criterion for what's real means having to oppose imagination or spirituality. (Also, science doesn't rule out singular events! It just means we can't say something reliable about them. A big problem for science is anecdotal knowledge - knowledge that comes from reports of singular events.) What I oppose is a form of spirituality that hinges on weak claims of existence which confound reality and imagination.

That we, as artists and writers, can move people by telling stories, that we can change their mindset and motivate them to do things, that we can communicate in depth, etc., is magic… in a metaphoric sense.

And that I'm stuck on a “halfway point of existence” is a pretty daring assumption! :D

I appreciate the good humor with which you took what you may have seen as personal attacks. I did excerpt your earlier post, and apologize if you thought I was describing you personally. I certainly did not intend (and reading through it again) did not accuse you of a lack of imagination. To the contrary.

What I was attempting to address is that most people of intellect and education rarely resist acknowledging the abilities of mental, and imagination is a great component of mental. This is the “halfway point of existence” – that people of intellect/education can readily accept a definition of existence even if something is not physically manifested because they appreciate the creative abilities of imagination.

However, when abilities are attributed to “spiritual”, then a red flag is raised.
You did write this: “What I oppose is a form of spirituality that hinges on weak claims of existence which confound reality and imagination.”
I've read several previous opinions posted by several individuals in various threads that are based on the idea that there are essentially two origins of reality, that which is physical and that which we create from our imagination (our mental). Very much as you phrased it: reality or imagination.

I posit a third: that which is spiritual. We can and do perceive of things that do not physically exist and that do not derive from our imagination. And it is not because there is a mental dysfunction (although mental dysfunctions can present in very much the same way).

It frustrates many because such spiritual occurrences do not lend themselves to empirical study. Why did some individuals abruptly not show up to board the Titanic, having a “bad feeling about it?” Why did Oz think about a piece of music, turn on a radio and hear it? Why did I take a different route home from work than usual and learned after I arrived home that there had been a traffic accident on my usual route?

We call it coincidence because? Because there is a discomfort in accepting a reality that cannot be measured or even predicted. And so like the hubristic creatures we are, we deny its the existence of the spiritual reality and call it imagination, coincidence, whimsy, insanity.

I'm not saying You do this, although I wouldn't be surprised if you might have at some point or time, mostly because I don't know you. But this tendency, this cultural shaping? — to believe in only the physical and perhaps the imagination as the only sources of realities, is far more common than an acceptance of a spiritual reality.

under new management
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:14AM

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