Debate and Discussion

Christians killing in the name of...
CorruptComics at 3:43AM, March 13, 2007
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As many atheists like to point out, Christian have been going around for the last few hundred years killing millions of people. All in the name of the lord their God. But lets pause for a moment and tally the scores so far.

You can play along at home.


Christians

Salem Witch Trials = 1,000s? 100s? No it was 20. 20 people were killed.
Spanish Inquisition = 10,000 or so.

Total = 10,020

Atheist

Hitler: 6 million Jews, 500,000 Gypsies, 6 million Poles, 10,000 homosexuals
Stalin: 15 million peasants, 5 million Ukrainians, 3 million enemies of the state, 200,000 Jews.

Total = 35,710,000


Feel free to add more. Don't cheat though. And remember, have fun adding up how certain mindsets of the world like to go around and kill the other. Don't just single out the Christians though. After all, only an idiot would think all the problems in the world could be caused by a pacifistic minority. :)
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:46AM
Aurora Moon at 4:11AM, March 13, 2007
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Actually, Hitler was an Christan I'm sorry to tell you.

it's well known that his family was Christians, and they had strong beliefs when it came to god. He was raised an good little Christian boy.
He even acknowledged later in life that he still believed in god and Jesus, as an adult.

He just didn't use his religion as an excuse to kill. Which could ironically be seen as an good thing…

expect for the fact that he used an even more lamer excuse: that Jews were somehow inferior, and that people had to be purged of weak, flawed people, etc.
I'm on hitatus while I redo one of my webcomics. Be sure to check it out when I'n done! :)
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:10AM
ozoneocean at 4:55AM, March 13, 2007
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Aurora is right. Although the Nazis tried to come up with some rubbish about a reconstructed version of their Norse/Teutonic extinct religion, they were still fundamentally Christian. All the Oden crap was just nationalistic wishful thinking and window dressing. Even the Swastika which was stolen from the Buddhists was chosen for its similarity to the Christian cross. Ever wonder why they targeted Jewish people? Christianity again I'm afraid. ;)
And if you're going to use the low estimate of 10,000 for the Spanish Inquisition, you should similarly revise down the amount of Jewish dead from 6 million to about 4 million or something. I'm not saying that lower figure is more right, but it exists for the same reason as the low 10,000 number does.

If you want to factor in big Christian death tolls then you should think about the total deaths involved in the Crusades. Entire cities worth of people were slaughtered. Raw numbers aren't even that important either when you consider how few people made up cities and countries back then: higher proportions of the nation's people were killed off than today.

But then the whole exercise is largely irrelevant anyway, simply because people kill people regardless. Religion or lack of it is unimportant to the equation, they'd still be dead. The true reason for most wars is usually nationalism.

Hmm, the inquisition is an interesting case. Characterised as a chaotic witch burning torture-fest mostly by protestant propagandists with easy access to printing presses and who often simply invented their “eye witness” accounts, it was in fact quite an ordered process primarily focused of stemming the split-up of the church brought about by “reformers” and various cultist groups. Tortures and punishments meted out were exactly the same as those of the contemporary secular courts of the time. There was indeed injustice and some people accused of crazy things, but most of it was political and not all driven by insane religious zeal as its often portrayed (although there WAS an element of that, usually at the lower levels). And then similar things were happening on the side of their enemies too; the cult groups and the protestants were just as bad, although not on the same large, organised scale. -and they did tend to be more crazy and less political.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:26PM
7384395948urhfdjfrueruieieueue at 5:57AM, March 13, 2007
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35,710,000
-6,000,000
———-
29,710,000

10,020
*1.5
——
15,030

15,030
+6,000,000
———-
6,015,030

6,015,030
+1,000,000
———-
7,015,030

Someone should add Mao considering he killed more people than any dictator ever.
i will also like to know you the more
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:03AM
reconjsh at 6:35AM, March 13, 2007
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I don't see how “killing in the name of…” is an arguement against the “of” in the first place!?
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:02PM
subcultured at 7:03AM, March 13, 2007
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i think most of those killings were propagated with greed, jelousy, and trying to find a scape goat.

this is kinda of a pointless thread…it's like saying how many people were killed by men. it's hard to quantify a killing by just saying “oh he was christian”
J
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:01PM
7384395948urhfdjfrueruieieueue at 1:53PM, March 13, 2007
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The problem I have with this list is it's specifically Christians killing in the name of God, however any Atheist who killed any significant amount of people is thrown in.
i will also like to know you the more
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:03AM
ccs1989 at 3:00PM, March 13, 2007
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However many other religions killed people in the name of their God too. I suppose the most obvious other would be Islam.

You can compare this to Nazi-ism and other -isms because it's people killing because they feel they're fighting for a cause or they feel they have justification. Heck, that's how you get people to go to war.

I know it sounds glib but it seems to hold true.
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“If one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours.”
-Henry David Thoreau, Walden
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:38AM
Neilsama at 3:11PM, March 13, 2007
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It's really easy to stack the numbers when you categorize an atheist as *anyone who isn't a Christian*. Asshole.

First of all, any reference made to Hitler is officially a cheapshot. This is called “poisoning the well”. It's a way of attempting to “win” an argument by simply sabotaging your opponent's position. It's bad argumentation, and you should be ashamed of yourself.

I would hesitate to call Hitler a Christian, but he sure as damn hell wasn't an atheist. Unless of course, you actually believe “Gott Mit Uns” is German for “We <3 Atheism”.



Oh, is that a Cardinal standing their with Hitler? Yep! What did the Vatican do while Hitler was in power. Did they denounce him? They could have. They SHOULD have, but they didn't. Wow, I can poison the well, too!

And even if we consider Stalin for a moment, you still don't really have a point. First of all, Stalin's actions came from Stalin's own political point-of-view. He did not derive his worldview from atheism. There is no atheistic doctrine. All an atheist is is someone who rejects theism.

If you attempt to build a collective based on what people AREN'T, then you can fix the numbers any way you want. You could have meaningless statistics about the number of people killed by non-ghost believers or non-extraterrestrialists. You see the flaw in your logic?
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:10PM
reconjsh at 3:25PM, March 13, 2007
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Atom Apple
The problem I have with this list is it's specifically Christians killing in the name of God, however any Atheist who killed any significant amount of people is thrown in.

I don't see atheists killing in the name of “no god exists”. ;)
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:02PM
ozoneocean at 3:27PM, March 13, 2007
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Good point Neil, but please hold off on the name calling.

I don't know where this is going, the idea the thread is based on isn't very sound. I agree with Sub that this is pretty pointless. Unless people start coming up with something good I think it's a candidate for locking.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:26PM
Neilsama at 3:32PM, March 13, 2007
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reconjsh
I don't see atheists killing in the name of “no god exists”. ;)
Exactly.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:10PM
CorruptComics at 3:34PM, March 13, 2007
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To the uneducated who thinks Hitler was Christian lets take a look at some of very own words.


Hitler
National Socialism and religion cannot exist together…. The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity…. Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things.



Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure.


The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death…. When understanding of the universe has become widespread… Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity…. Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity…. And that's why someday its structure will collapse…. …the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little…. Christianity the liar…. We'll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State.

The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity.


Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery…. …. When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let's be the only people who are immunised against the disease


It would always be disagreeable for me to go down to posterity as a man who made concessions in this field. I realize that man, in his imperfection, can commit innumerable errors– but to devote myself deliberately to errors, that is something I cannot do. I shall never come personally to terms with the Christian lie. Our epoch Uin the next 200 yearse will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity…. My regret will have been that I couldn't… behold .


Try again kids.


And I said feel free to add. 9/11 Muslim extremists, cult murders. Come on guys, lets see some effort!

last edited on July 14, 2011 11:46AM
Neilsama at 3:45PM, March 13, 2007
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CorruptComics
To the uneducated who thinks Hitler was Christian lets take a look at some of very own words.
Well, that would exclude me, since I was one of the few to actually deny that he was a Christian. On the other hand, he certainly wasn't an atheist.

Now again, you're simply trying to make a lump argument by saying “More harm is caused by people who don't believe X”, which is a silly argument. Come on.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:10PM
CorruptComics at 3:52PM, March 13, 2007
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Well you get a thumbs up!

So… if he WASN'T an Atheist (one who believes that there is no deity) which deity do you think he worshiped?

It's not a silly argument. It is simple thought. Those who believe in a deity and think there is an afterlife consequence to their actions on earth do fewer immoral things that those who don't.

:)
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:46AM
Neilsama at 3:58PM, March 13, 2007
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It doesn't matter which deity he believed in. The fact is that he wasn't an atheist. He may have been a non-denominational theist or a deist. And even if he was an atheist, it wouldn't make any difference.

Your argument amounts to a post hoc ergo proctor hoc. By building up a statistic of harm caused by individuals who are atheists, you are attempting to suggest that atheism leads to greater world harm, as if finding a common thread among all evil people means that the shared commonality is the root of their evil. BAD LOGIC! Try again.

last edited on July 14, 2011 2:10PM
CorruptComics at 4:01PM, March 13, 2007
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But but… Hitler was a bad man. And atheists are bad people.

So Hitler was so an atheist.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:46AM
Neilsama at 4:02PM, March 13, 2007
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You're… not being serious with me, are you?
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:10PM
CorruptComics at 4:03PM, March 13, 2007
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:)
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:46AM
reconjsh at 4:11PM, March 13, 2007
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'Neilsama'
…What did the Vatican do while Hitler was in power. Did they denounce him? They could have. They SHOULD have, but they didn't…
This is probably an uninformed take on Catholic involvement during WWII. Sadly, the fact is many Catholics - including clergy - are uninformed too. I have the benefit of a priest that did his thesis on this subject. I'm also a Catholicism “apologetics” fanatic.

There is a lot to why the Vatican didn't denounce Hitler and the entire myth of Christian complicity. Please research it yourself and save me from the long post and debate. ;)

The short answer is: The Pope and Vatican DID speak out. The Pope felt it would do more harm than good to publically denounce Hitler and the Holocaust in excess. The Church organized countless secret and public efforts to aid the Jews AND Catholics that were being slaughtered. Remember: it's estimated that 3 million+ Catholics were killed in the Holocaust.

Articles to aid you in beginning your research:
http://cfpeople.org/Apologetics/page51a014.html - definitely read this one.
http://www.holocaustforgotten.com/lukas.htm


Is it my turn to have changed someone's opinion on something in an internet forum debate and thus revealing the 7th sign, Neilsama? ;)
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:02PM
Neilsama at 4:34PM, March 13, 2007
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Okay okay… but I was making a point about poisoning the well. Whether or not the vatican was complacent is totally irrelevent. It was attempting to make a similar argument in the style of the original post.

I will look it up, although you'll have to pardon me if I attempt to verify it with more… um… neutral resources. I'm not saying “atheistic” resources. Just someone who doesn't have an axe to grind. I generally ignore apologetic websites of ALL types, including those written by atheists, Christians, and any other collective state. Generally (from experience), websites that post “Defending the Faith” or similar slogans at the top of their pages are NOT going to be very balanced.

Besides, I think this guy was yanking our chains.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:10PM
reconjsh at 4:39PM, March 13, 2007
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Neilsama
Okay okay… but I was making a point about poisoning the well. Whether or not the vatican was complacent is totally irrelevent. It was attempting to make a similar argument in the style of the original post.

I will look it up, although you'll have to pardon me if I attempt to verify it with more… um… neutral resources. I'm not saying “atheistic” resources. Just someone who doesn't have an axe to grind. I generally ignore apologetic websites of ALL types, including those written by atheists.
You're right… it has nothing to do with poisoning the well and your arguement. And I'm not really debating anyone in this thread because there really isn't anything to debate.

It's just a personal beef I have when people say something about the Catholicism without knowing all the facts. Even if you discover that I'm 100% wrong about Pope Pius XII and WWII… you still had to go research it, right? ;)

And yeah, use whatever sources you want. ;) The first article seemed pretty fair to me. I read it all. The second, perhaps not.

I'm going to go to the potty now.

Someone
Besides, I think this guy was yanking our chains.
What guy?
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:02PM
Phantom Penguin at 5:06PM, March 13, 2007
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Was is this even in the debate folder? Theres nothing to debate.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:42PM
Neilsama at 5:27PM, March 13, 2007
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reconjsh
Someone
Besides, I think this guy was yanking our chains.
What guy?
The feller who started this here post, of course.

Phantom Penguin
Was is this even in the debate folder? Theres nothing to debate.
Pretty much. I'm guessing that the point of the topic was to poke fun at anti-Christian/anti-theist arguments that rely on statistics by making an equally defeatable argument from the opposite perspective. There's a name for something like that. I think it's called “reductio ad absurdum”.

Basically, if there were any anti-Christian/anti-theists here foolish enough to make a post-hoc-ergo-proctor-hoc type of argument against Christianity, this sort of counter-argument could be employed as to sort of *dare* those same people to poke holes in the obviously faulty logic. That way, he could say, “Okay, my argument was wrong, but then so was yours.” It baits you to defeat your own argument. That's why I told Recon that he was yanking our chains.

Another example of reductio ad absurdum would be the classic parent-to-child peer pressure retort. The child says, “Everyone else was doing it.”, to which the mother says, “If everyone else jumped off a bridge, would you do that, too?”.

Or maybe I'm giving CorruptComics way too much credit. I used to argue with a lot of reformed apologists, and they pull that sort of shit all the time.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:10PM
subcultured at 6:50PM, March 13, 2007
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okay
this is just getting trollsome
so i'm locking this thread
J
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:01PM

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