Debate and Discussion

Creationism and other Bible stories.
bravo1102 at 6:45PM, April 30, 2008
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How about we start with a simple textual error?

“Thou shalt not kill.”

In the original language it is "You shall not murder“ The word kill is a mis-translation. Killing is fine with errant wives, disobedient children and Philistines.

”Virgin Mary“

Well the Aramaic word for ”Virgin“ also means ”young woman“. The whole concept of immaculate conception was decided by a bunch of churchmen in a conference along with so many other jumps of faith (Transubstantiation, the Trinity and so many other conumdrums and imponderables)

Thomas Aquinas is among the best of all the thinkers on faith and reason. Boiled down to the basics it's ”You cannot prove God with reason, so you need faith.“ Now if you have faith you go to Heaven. If you accept reason and do not accept God you go to Hell. Pascal as a betting man said it's better to believe in God that way if there is no God it doesn't matter, but if there is you still go to heaven.

You cannot apply reason and logic to faith. Faith is about the numinous or the ”wholly other" something that can be felt, maybe even seen, but cannot be objectively proven.

The classroom is about those things that can be objectively proven. Even the history of ideas is objective: Aquinas wrote about what he did, it had this influence…

All the evidence (and there is TONS of it, try the entire science of biology and genetics and from genetics more is found daily) proves evolution. If you want to argue that a story in a 3000 year old book held as correct by one religion out of hundreds is the only way Creation could have happened, why is the other 5/6ths of Mankind wrong and you are right? Judiasim and Catholicism takes the Bible as Metaphor and Creation not literally, so that puts the un-intelligent Design (which cannot be proven scientifically, read about biology and genetics not theology and you'll see I'm right)so that puts the idea of Literal Creationism even more into the minority.

Humans did not come from apes or monkeys. Properly speaking apes, monkeys and hominids have a common ancestor (hominid is us and the rest of the genus homo like Neanderthals and Australopithicines etc. We're the only one not extinct)

Oh and that cute story about Moses and God was written in a story about 40 years ago wherein Moses starts dictating:
8 billions years ago!
Wait, how much papyrus do you think I have here? Make it shorter so anyone can understand it.
A week?
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:32AM
SpANG at 6:44AM, May 1, 2008
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Hawk
Aurora Moon, keep in mind that laws in the early books like Deuteronomy and Leviticus are in a different context. They were issued to the Israelites back when they first left Egypt, and the laws don't necessarily stand today because they were considered obsolete from Christ's time forward. You can still consider them awful laws, but just realize those aren't the laws currently being followed by most Christians and fundamentalists.

When Christains quote the bible about “God hating fags”, they are quoting Leviticus. They pound on their Bibles and say “This is the word of GOD!” And that's the problem. They cherry pick what they want to keep in modern thought, and remove what they consider “obsolete”.




//Edit: Oh, I see Aurora Moon said basically the same thing. Ah, well. :D

//Edit: Great points there, bravo1102.
“To a rational mind, nothing is inexplicable. Only unexplained.”
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:53PM
Hawk at 12:20PM, May 2, 2008
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Guys, I'm not justifying fundamentalists. I'm providing historical facts. When Jesus came along the Christians modified their laws and the Jews stuck with them. If If a person uses Leviticus to persecute a gay, it's their hypocrisy, not mine.

Criminy, you guys are so eager to pounce on a Christian that this forum always feels like a witch hunt.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:46PM
bravo1102 at 5:43PM, May 2, 2008
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You do know that in the actual original texts what is defined as sodomy may not necessarily be what we think it is? In fact in the original texts it isn't called sodomy. A man using a man as he would a woman. Maybe even oral sex with either sex. There is some thought that the injunctions were written in later in reaction to the Hellenization of Jews after Alexander came through.

Of course just use the parts of Bible you agree with. If the whole book is the word of God as Christians believe, why is some not to be followed and other parts are wonderful? It's Scripture, you just can't pick and choose what you agree with. That's hypocricy. You just can't say that one part is obsolete and the ravings of a nomadic culture in the First Millenium B.C. and then say that Jesus said everything was now different when there is lots of interpretation by men and patriarchs over what he meant and not just Jesus and Paul. Jesus did not say nothing about Original Sin. Jesus did not set himself up as a deity like Serapis, that all came later. Men decided these things and some ideas in the Forgotten Gospels represented dangerous ideas that just couldn't be allowed to continue. The church had to be Catholic (universal)

Logic and reason led to the end of the witch hunts. I don't see Richard Dawkins calling for anyone to burn in Hell forever. Do you know what the most hated minority in the USA is? It's atheists. A huge majority of people would never vote for an admitted atheist ever.

Now jump on this scale so we can see if you weigh the same as a duck.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:32AM
Aurora Moon at 7:03PM, May 2, 2008
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Hawk
Guys, I'm not justifying fundamentalists. I'm providing historical facts. When Jesus came along the Christians modified their laws and the Jews stuck with them. If If a person uses Leviticus to persecute a gay, it's their hypocrisy, not mine.

Criminy, you guys are so eager to pounce on a Christian that this forum always feels like a witch hunt.

I'm not eager to jump on *any* christain. I'm just pointing out that there are SOME hyropotical christains out there, who's all too eager to defend everything about the bible, even to the point of saying “you're LYING!!! you're just twisting it to your own ends!!” when they're doing the exact thing that they're acussing “us” of doing.

I don't mind it if there are christains who truly believes that Jesus loves everyone, and wants every human on earth to treat each other well. Espeically if they follow that belief faithfully by truly trying to be the best person they can be in life. Those ones I'm totally fine with, snice they're at least truthful that there was a lot of awful stuff in the bible, and it's not hyprotical of *Those christains* snice they believe MORE in Jesus than in the bible itself.

I just simply think it's a sad day when there are a couple of christains who feel that the only way to follow Jesus's teachings is to competely worship the bible itself more than what Jesus/God actually taught. The bible is not the End-all of the whole faith. It's just simply a bunch of collected stories meant to get you to THINK ABOUT GOD, and How he affects your life. It can't tell you everything, and it certainly can't control how you live your own life. But some people act like it does, and that's the problem.

I mean seriously… what's wrong with just believing that there was really a Jesus Christ, and trying your best to be a better human being like you believed he was? Why does some people feel like the bible holds more value over the core basics of Jesus Christ's teachings?
I hope that makes sense.
I'm on hitatus while I redo one of my webcomics. Be sure to check it out when I'n done! :)
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:10AM
dueeast at 8:29PM, May 3, 2008
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Aurora Moon,

I must respectfully disagree with your opinion of the Bible. To Christians, followers of Jesus teachings, it's so much more. Jesus believed in the Old Testament and the words of its prophets taught from it in the synagogues. But Jesus introduced new teachings that left the Law of the Old Testament behind.

The Bible is not more important than Jesus' teachings, Jesus' teaching are a critical part of the greater whole that is the Bible. The Old Testament told of Jesus long before He was born and made way for the New Testament. The Old Testament is also an amazing documentation of the Hebrew/Jewish people, their history and culture, worship/faith and their struggles as a people.

I understand your disdain with hypocrites who claim to be Christians. I share that feeling. And unfortunately, there ARE a lot of hypocrites out there! They serve little purpose except to give Christians who are doing their best to live Jesus' teachings a bad name.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:18PM
Aurora Moon at 11:35PM, May 3, 2008
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I know all that. The point that I was trying to make was completely lost on viewers of my post, I see.

The point of the whole thing was:
A lot of the stuff in the bible that they say is acceptable or isn't acceptable, isn't exactly socially accepted now in modern times. There was a reason why those “laws” were made by the people in the past. because it was approbate for that harsh time period, where humans probably had to do a lot of atrocities to survive. But if it was still continued today, then it would be seen as cruel and inhumane today.

I think one of the reasons why Jesus started putting in new laws and such, was because he recognized that the times were changing. Even if he still believed in the old testament, to the point of criticizing some Jewish people for not killing their disobedient children, the “laws” had to change. He knew the religion and such needed to change with the times, otherwise it would never survive.
Only the most important core basics (aka the ten commandants along with some of his teachings) could stay while the rest was no longer irrelevant.

This is of course, just my opinion.

So thus, I don't think it's a good idea to be completely obsessed with all the passages of the bible and claim that every passage is truth which shapes how people live, and that people today should live as the ancient Christians did. it's certainly important from an historical viewpoint in seeing how the religion evolved over the years, and how Jesus came to be the savior.

But… if a person was to completely follow every single passage of the bible down to the last letter faithfully, she/he'd be very far removed from normal society. and not only that, she/he would be completely stuck in the past where Ritual burning of human bodies/murder of babies/rape/etc were completely acceptable in Christianity.
Those who read the bible has to keep in mind that very fact. Also keeping in mind that parts of the bible is supposed to be symbolic, and not literal fact.

Again, I hope everyone understands this point I'm trying to make here.
I'm on hitatus while I redo one of my webcomics. Be sure to check it out when I'n done! :)
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:10AM
StaceyMontgomery at 7:24AM, May 4, 2008
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I do not think people here are “eager to jump on any Christian” - but I do think a lot of us are very quick to stand up to followers of the Christianist Political Movement. I do not recognize their Jesus from the Bible (that one loved the poor more than the rich, for instance) and there is a strong responsibility for people of good will to stand up to them and their war on modernity - on the street, in the voting booth, and even here, on a message board.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:55PM
bravo1102 at 12:31PM, May 4, 2008
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StaceyMontgomery
I do not think people here are “eager to jump on any Christian” - but I do think a lot of us are very quick to stand up to followers of the Christianist Political Movement. I do not recognize their Jesus from the Bible (that one loved the poor more than the rich, for instance) and there is a strong responsibility for people of good will to stand up to them and their war on modernity - on the street, in the voting booth, and even here, on a message board.

Well said. Most atheists and secular humanists agree with you about the message of Jesus, if not his divinity and the existence of a deity.

I'd like take a moment to apologize to anyone who is offended by my irreverence. I firmly believe that “The only thing a man should take seriously is the fact that nothing is to be taken seriously.”
;)
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:32AM
bravo1102 at 12:31PM, May 4, 2008
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StaceyMontgomery
I do not think people here are “eager to jump on any Christian” - but I do think a lot of us are very quick to stand up to followers of the Christianist Political Movement. I do not recognize their Jesus from the Bible (that one loved the poor more than the rich, for instance) and there is a strong responsibility for people of good will to stand up to them and their war on modernity - on the street, in the voting booth, and even here, on a message board.

Well said. Most atheists and secular humanists agree with you about the message of Jesus, if not his divinity and the existence of a deity.

I'd like take a moment to apologize to anyone who is offended by my irreverence. I firmly believe that “The only thing a man should take seriously is the fact that nothing is to be taken seriously.”
;)
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:32AM
dueeast at 1:54PM, May 4, 2008
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That religion, the Jewish religion, did survive and in time, it changed on its own to adjust to changing times and circumstances. As I'm sure you know, the Jewish nation itself was broken up by the Romans and scattered to the far corners of the globe until after World War 2, but the religion survived and the laws changed.

I better understand the points you are making. I see that you're not trying to single out all Christians, you're (understandably) annoyed by the hypocrites and the influence/affect they have on things that affect you. You don't have a problem with people peaceably following Jesus' teachings. And you have a unique take on Jesus that you've obviously given a lot of time and thought to.

Taking that into account, I think it's also important to know that Jesus believed he was fulfilling the prophecies of the Old Testament with his life, his death, and as Christians believe, with his resurrection from the dead. Again, as I'm sure you know, Jesus never advocated killing, he advocated forgiveness. Jesus did not believe he was adjusting the old religion to make it “more acceptable” to people of more modern times to keep it from dying out. He believed he was fulfilling God's will.

There's a lot more I could say on the subject but I believe that would potentially lead to endless debate over specific biblical text and quite frankly, I don't care to open that can of worms. :)

Aurora Moon
I think one of the reasons why Jesus started putting in new laws and such, was because he recognized that the times were changing. Even if he still believed in the old testament, to the point of criticizing some Jewish people for not killing their disobedient children, the “laws” had to change. He knew the religion and such needed to change with the times, otherwise it would never survive.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:18PM

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