Media Megaforum

Date rape movie, 'edgy' or retarded?
Jonko at 9:50PM, April 12, 2009
(online)
posts: 377
joined: 2-9-2007
I guess I agree with what you're saying. “isn't something that should be” was a little bit too strong a phrase for me to use (Freedom of Speech is in the First Amendment!).

I am, however, always offended when I see anyone joking about sexual abuse and domestic violence. I feel like it sends out the message that “it's ok” to do it because it's funny. I guess the only thing I can do in this case is never watch the movie. Probably won't be missing out on much anyway.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:10PM
Kristen Gudsnuk at 10:08PM, April 12, 2009
(online)
posts: 1,340
joined: 10-4-2006
I hear ya. I might see this movie, just because I go to the movies at least once a week… (it's a costly addiction).
I don't think either subject is funny, either– but I do think that theoretically, they could be. (it just depends on what the joke is saying– like how sometimes racist jokes make fun of racists themselves… etc..?)
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:22PM
Exzachly at 12:04AM, April 13, 2009
(online)
posts: 565
joined: 4-21-2007
Skullbie
But they wouldn't be pissed off the film was basically making light of their situation and even making fun of it with a comedy, there's a huge difference between saving private ryan's emotionally moving seriousness and a ‘comedy’ about a bipolar date raping mallcop that makes light of it.
There's been plenty of films with graphic rape scenes in them. But because this one is meant to be funny, it kind of changes the context.
Just because it's a comedy doesn't mean it's making light of anything, nor does it mean its without artistic merit. A comedy can be just as brutally honest and real as anything else. Believe it or not, it's possible to laugh and feel disturbed/creeped out at the same time. From what I read on metacritic, that mix of feelings (and just being an honest character portrayal) is what the movie strives for. “You may laugh, but you will feel seriously uncomfortable while doing so,” is what I've gathered they're after here.

It may sound bad to have a straightforward date rape scene in the middle of a comedy. It may sound like they're taking it lightly, but in reality, these filmmakers don't want you to take it lightly at all. They want you to feel disturbed, laugh at the jokes, sure, but also feel uncomfortable about laughing, and generally fuck with your head. I saw a different movie (a critically acclaimed Belgian movie called Man Bites Dog) that did the same thing with graphic violence. I don't know if this movie succeeds in what its trying to do the way that movie did, but I don't see a problem with the goal.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:25PM
BffSatan at 1:12AM, April 13, 2009
(online)
posts: 1,478
joined: 3-2-2008
Skullbie
I apologize to the normal people who know some disabled people that have to take a commonplace slang and make it politically correct as a way of apologizing for themselves.

That isa horrible, horrible thing to say. Your comments are ignorant and just add to your hypocricy.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:20AM
Skullbie at 2:00AM, April 13, 2009
(online)
posts: 4,772
joined: 12-9-2007
Bffsatan it was not my intention to insult mentally disabled people in the title, only to use the commonplace slang of ‘something moronic’ which perhaps I should have chosen. To me it seems you are taking it to the politically correct context as a way of internally apologizing for something you did or didn't do that has to do with it. Either way if i must labeled as a hypocrite for disliking rape humor and then using the slang retarded, then that's just prime.
yeah i still need to get beast wars out of the system ._.
Exzachly
Just because it's a comedy doesn't mean it's making light of anything, nor does it mean its without artistic merit. A comedy can be just as brutally honest and real as anything else. Believe it or not, it's possible to laugh and feel disturbed/creeped out at the same time.
You bring up a good point there, and from what i've read about this movie it seems to pretty much make light of literally everything within it( bipolar disorder, fantasizing about people dying, delusions,etc) . I won't be seeing it myself since it's not my kind of movie, but it might just be another comedy where everything is too over the top to take seriously.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:47PM
BffSatan at 2:12AM, April 13, 2009
(online)
posts: 1,478
joined: 3-2-2008
I have no problem with you using the word, I am just pointing out that you completely contradict yourself. If date rape in a comedy is offensive because it makes light of something serious then using a word like retarded is doing the exact same thing. The argument is flawed, you can't apply one set of rules to one thing and not another, rules that apply to comedy movies should be the same rules that apply to a serious movie and to society.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:20AM
Skullbie at 2:39AM, April 13, 2009
(online)
posts: 4,772
joined: 12-9-2007
BffSatan
you can't apply one set of rules to one thing and not another, rules that apply to comedy movies should be the same rules that apply to a serious movie and to society.
I think that's kind of a black and white way to look at the world, but even though i think the majority of the human race has done what you said they can't at one point or another, i'll certainly respect your views on it.

Edit: and i don't think the same rules should apply to comedy movies/serious movies/and society for the reason exactly brought up with the uncomfortable humor and that they frequently have shown to not follow eachothers rules.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:47PM
Hyena H_ll at 4:24AM, April 13, 2009
(online)
posts: 1,568
joined: 11-13-2008
Exzachly
Skullbie
But they wouldn't be pissed off the film was basically making light of their situation and even making fun of it with a comedy, there's a huge difference between saving private ryan's emotionally moving seriousness and a ‘comedy’ about a bipolar date raping mallcop that makes light of it.
There's been plenty of films with graphic rape scenes in them. But because this one is meant to be funny, it kind of changes the context.
Just because it's a comedy doesn't mean it's making light of anything, nor does it mean its without artistic merit. A comedy can be just as brutally honest and real as anything else. Believe it or not, it's possible to laugh and feel disturbed/creeped out at the same time. From what I read on metacritic, that mix of feelings (and just being an honest character portrayal) is what the movie strives for. “You may laugh, but you will feel seriously uncomfortable while doing so,” is what I've gathered they're after here.

It may sound bad to have a straightforward date rape scene in the middle of a comedy. It may sound like they're taking it lightly, but in reality, these filmmakers don't want you to take it lightly at all. They want you to feel disturbed, laugh at the jokes, sure, but also feel uncomfortable about laughing, and generally fuck with your head.
No, I agree completely; which is why I'm not saying the film should be condemned or calling for anyone's head on a post.

And as I said before, it's not that I believe rape (or anything) shouldn't be in a comedy movie. What I mean about the “context” is just that because it's a comedy movie, I'm afraid some viewers (who might be potentially offended, disturbed, or hurt by any rape scene, no matter how “mild”) will go to see the movie without knowing they will see that.

All I'm saying is that I hope it's clear to the people going to see this movie that it has this content and deals with this subject (in whatever terms). It's art, to a degree; sure. But it's also a product being marketed on a wide scale- adverts, talk shows, posters, etc.- you know how Hollywood does. Because of its ability to (and the probability that it will) be seen by millions of people, I guess I'm just very empathetic to what it might be like to be “surprised” by this stuff.







last edited on July 14, 2011 12:52PM
Exzachly at 5:39AM, April 13, 2009
(online)
posts: 565
joined: 4-21-2007
Ah, ic. Yeah, I agree. :)
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:25PM
LIZARD_B1TE at 6:32AM, April 13, 2009
(online)
posts: 3,308
joined: 6-22-2006
I like how everyone in this thread ignored the people who have pointed out that no one has actually seen this movie yet, and that making premature judgments may not be the smartest course of action.

Also, like many other people in this thread, I haven't seen any rape-like scenes in the trailers. Would anyone be so kind as to link to this fabled trailer with a date rape scene in it?
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:38PM
Hyena H_ll at 6:54AM, April 13, 2009
(online)
posts: 1,568
joined: 11-13-2008
LIZARD_B1TE
I like how everyone in this thread ignored the people who have pointed out that no one has actually seen this movie yet, and that making premature judgments may not be the smartest course of action.

Also, like many other people in this thread, I haven't seen any rape-like scenes in the trailers. Would anyone be so kind as to link to this fabled trailer with a date rape scene in it?
http://www.cinemablend.com/new/Observe-And-Report-Red-Band-Trailer-11909.html
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:52PM
mlai at 7:35AM, April 13, 2009
(online)
posts: 3,035
joined: 12-28-2006
I'm not sure you can call that date rape. People get drunk, have sex with someone they otherwise wouldn't, then wake up to regret it, everyday. It's an underhanded way to get sex, but it's not criminal nor is it particularly traumatizing (to get drunk and then stupidly consent to have sex with someone).

The man was surprised to find the woman passed out during the middle of intercourse. That clearly implies that she was conscious when she consented to have sex, but just fell asleep during the middle of it. At that point he stopped, until she showed that she's conscious and consensual. How is this rape?

Tricking/seducing a drunk woman into bed is not moral, but it isn't rape.

FIGHT current chapter: Filling In The Gaps
FIGHT_2 current chapter: Light Years of Gold
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:06PM
LIZARD_B1TE at 7:35AM, April 13, 2009
(online)
posts: 3,308
joined: 6-22-2006
Hyena H_ll
LIZARD_B1TE
I like how everyone in this thread ignored the people who have pointed out that no one has actually seen this movie yet, and that making premature judgments may not be the smartest course of action.

Also, like many other people in this thread, I haven't seen any rape-like scenes in the trailers. Would anyone be so kind as to link to this fabled trailer with a date rape scene in it?
http://www.cinemablend.com/new/Observe-And-Report-Red-Band-Trailer-11909.html

…OK, yeah. I admit that does look pretty bad. Though it does look less like date rape and more like drunken shenanigans, it still sends a pretty strong date rape overtone.

At this point, I normally would point out that it's out of context, and it may be something completely different, but judging from the rest of the trailer, this movie doesn't look that sophisticated.

Also, as for the vomit on the pillow: did anyone think it looks more like blood than vomit? 0_o
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:38PM
Hyena H_ll at 8:15AM, April 13, 2009
(online)
posts: 1,568
joined: 11-13-2008
mlai
Tricking/seducing a drunk woman into bed is not moral, but it isn't rape.
At this point, since I haven't seen the movie and you're right- that scene is shown without much context- I'm just speaking here on date rape v. ill-advised, drunk sex in general.

Waking up and regretting sex is one thing. Waking up and not remembering it (or not remembering agreeing to have sex) is another thing. Two people who are both extremely intoxicated and have sex probably isn't rape. When one person is and the other isn't, it might very well be rape. And in this case, it might depend solely on the attitude of victim- only they can decide whether the experience was “traumatic” or not. Is that necessarily fair to the other party in all cases? No. I do know men who have been put in that situation- accused of rape when at the time, they honestly weren't aware that they were doing anything wrong. But it should prompt people to think twice about “taking advantage” of someone, the same way underage laws dissuade people from having sex with minors. But I digress.

If someone is not of sound mind or able to make rational decisions or legally give consent- such as someone who is extremely intoxicated, mentally ill or disabled, or underage- then it is rape. And while it has been debated in multiple court cases- with arguments such as, “How does the alleged rapist know the alleged victim isn't able to give legal consent?”, for one example- it is rape, as defined by the law in most states, so far as I'm aware.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:52PM
BffSatan at 8:49AM, April 13, 2009
(online)
posts: 1,478
joined: 3-2-2008
I am pretty sure “why are you stopping mother fucker” is legal consent.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:20AM
Jonko at 9:34AM, April 13, 2009
(online)
posts: 377
joined: 2-9-2007
BffSatan
I am pretty sure “why are you stopping mother fucker” is legal consent.

If you are so drunk you don't remember, and if you have a lawyer that can convince the judge that this was the case, no it is not legal consent.

May be unfair to the guy, as Hyena H_II said, but it's a fact.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:10PM
BffSatan at 9:44AM, April 13, 2009
(online)
posts: 1,478
joined: 3-2-2008
I don't think so, if someone was so drunk that they couldn't remember having sex then they can't prove that they did have sex with that person. Without a good testimony from the victim no court could ever sentence someone and if the victim can't remember the crime then there is nothing to proove that the man commited a crime.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:20AM
Jonko at 10:35AM, April 13, 2009
(online)
posts: 377
joined: 2-9-2007
BffSatan
I don't think so, if someone was so drunk that they couldn't remember having sex then they can't prove that they did have sex with that person. Without a good testimony from the victim no court could ever sentence someone and if the victim can't remember the crime then there is nothing to proove that the man commited a crime.

Well obviously we're talking about case by case situations at this point, but there certainly are things that can prove that intercourse did take place… the most obvious being the perpetrator leaving a bit of himself inside the victim. Again there are other types of evidence such as condoms etc left in the woman's/man's room, and the best yet, if there is a witness that can state that he/she observed the two right before said intercourse occurred and that there is no way that the woman/man could have legally consented considering the state she was in.

And finally, depends on the lawyer, the judge, and probably the state too. Rape laws are different in each state. In most, if a woman consents and then tells the man to stop later, but he doesn't, it's considered rape, but in some states, such as Maryland, it is not. Of course it depends on the situation, but my conclusion is that in the eyes of most courts the situation that the characters were in would not be considered legal consent.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:10PM
BffSatan at 11:30AM, April 13, 2009
(online)
posts: 1,478
joined: 3-2-2008
That's true, but a lot of that evidence could be inadmissable, ecspecially if the crime isn't reported for a few days and a witness testimony on how drunk she was is heresay. As you said, it mostly depends on the case but a large part of any rape case is the victim's testemony. I don't know if a case like this has ever actually been to court and it probably never will since no one would report it.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:20AM
Hyena H_ll at 12:54PM, April 13, 2009
(online)
posts: 1,568
joined: 11-13-2008
BffSatan
I don't know if a case like this has ever actually been to court and it probably never will since no one would report it.
No, these cases are reported (probably not in most instances- but most rapes are unreported); and they do go to court. But the burden of proof is on the prosecution (in this case, the victim, or the victim's legal guardian/power of attorney) and as several people have said, it's a very gray area that's hard to prove. Often they are dismissed for want of evidence- here's a British report (from 4 years ago) I found online, that I think parallels somewhat the hypothetical legality of the scene in the movie.

That said, just because it can't legally be proven doesn't mean a rape didn't occur. Nor does it mean that because some people wouldn't consider it rape, it isn't rape. In some countries, it's perfectly legal for a man to rape his wife; marriage = unconditional consent. Until recently in the US, a woman had to prove she “put up a fight” or physically resisted in order to prove rape. (Some states still have this law.) There may be subjectivity in societal or cultural views on rape, and contradictions or vagueness within the legal tradition. But I think most women know when they have been raped.

But let's stress that there is a huge difference between movies and real life- we're talking about fictional characters. The legality and morality of their actions are moot, since they are subject to the interpretation of the viewer.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:52PM
Kristen Gudsnuk at 11:54PM, April 13, 2009
(online)
posts: 1,340
joined: 10-4-2006
Jonko
Well obviously we're talking about case by case situations at this point, but there certainly are things that can prove that intercourse did take place… the most obvious being the perpetrator leaving a bit of himself inside the victim. Again there are other types of evidence such as condoms etc left in the woman's/man's room, and the best yet, if there is a witness that can state that he/she observed the two right before said intercourse occurred and that there is no way that the woman/man could have legally consented considering the state she was in.

And finally, depends on the lawyer, the judge, and probably the state too. Rape laws are different in each state. In most, if a woman consents and then tells the man to stop later, but he doesn't, it's considered rape, but in some states, such as Maryland, it is not. Of course it depends on the situation, but my conclusion is that in the eyes of most courts the situation that the characters were in would not be considered legal consent.

Little miss criminal justice… that's insane about maryland though. I'll make sure to wear my chastity belt next time I go to Bethesda.. ; )
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:22PM
mlai at 5:30AM, April 14, 2009
(online)
posts: 3,035
joined: 12-28-2006
When you go into that gray area, then that's where you have to ask "How drunk is drunk enough?" If she's drunk enough to be arrested for DWI, then does that mean she's drunk enough to cry rape? Or does she have to be so drunk that she cannot tell you her own name? That she cannot walk unsupported?

The woman in the trailer was drunk, but she was speaking coherently (asking for a mint), walking by herself, and I guess managed to unlock her own front door. Her higher judgement was impaired, but that's not illegal.

It's hard for law to apply to something that has to be combed over on a case-by-case basis, where the details are remembered through an inebriated haze, or can't be remembered at all.

That is not to say that it is moral to seduce a drunk woman. But even that is a judgement call. The man could very well believe that it was consensual, especially if he's had a few himself, they've been going out for a while, and he honestly believes she likes him (and maybe she does).

FIGHT current chapter: Filling In The Gaps
FIGHT_2 current chapter: Light Years of Gold
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:06PM
lastcall at 4:48PM, April 14, 2009
(offline)
posts: 1,358
joined: 11-3-2007
This seems to be turning into more of a debate & discussion kind of topic….
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:28PM
Product Placement at 6:05PM, April 14, 2009
(online)
posts: 7,078
joined: 10-18-2007
Am I watching the same trailer here? I just looked at the theatrical trailer and then searched for other versions but there wasn't a single scene that included sex anywhere in what I saw. Where's this supposed date rape?

There's a flasher running around and a woman crying about seeing it but that's about it. Also the movie didn't seem to impress me that much.
Those were my two cents.
If you have any other questions, please deposit a quarter.
This space for rent.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:50PM
lastcall at 2:44PM, April 15, 2009
(offline)
posts: 1,358
joined: 11-3-2007
Product Placement
Am I watching the same trailer here? I just looked at the theatrical trailer and then searched for other versions but there wasn't a single scene that included sex anywhere in what I saw. Where's this supposed date rape?

There's a flasher running around and a woman crying about seeing it but that's about it. Also the movie didn't seem to impress me that much.

Yeah I even watched the trailer link that Hyena posted and it's the same thing as the theatrical trailer. I don't see anything even remotely similar to what the woman in the article is talking about. …Maybe she dreamed it?
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:28PM
Hawk at 3:34PM, April 15, 2009
(online)
posts: 2,760
joined: 1-2-2006
I didn't see any indications of date rape either. But I like to look at reviews in Rotten Tomatoes, especially if there's a movie I'm interested in succeeding or failing. Here's a one liner from one of the reviews:

"For people disappointed that Paul Blart didn't have more violence, booze, drugs, date rape, f-bombs, ‘retarded’ insults and full frontal penis shots." - Gina Carbone, Seacoast Newspapers

So I get the feeling it's in there. Most of us may have missed a date rape reference, but I'll bet the movie's every bit as dumb as the trailers indicate.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:46PM
Hyena H_ll at 3:52PM, April 15, 2009
(online)
posts: 1,568
joined: 11-13-2008
The scene folks are referring to is at the very end of the trailer- where the screen kinda goes black, then he's on top of the passed out chick, she wakes up momentarily, says “why are you stopping motherf**ker”, etc. It's not graphic or anything- no nudity or overt violence, so if you were expectin' something worse, you could easily overlook it.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:52PM
lba at 4:58PM, April 15, 2009
(online)
posts: 2,686
joined: 5-29-2007
I just got done talking to someone who just went to see it. When I asked him he said, and I quote this, “No, the chick lets him screw her, just after she takes all his bipolar meds and drinks herself under the table. She does it to herself, is what I'm trying to say.”

So going from what he said, this sounds like the stupid decision version here.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:29PM
ozoneocean at 7:18AM, April 16, 2009
(online)
posts: 25,050
joined: 1-2-2004
Blah, blah blah. Yes, rape is bad.

I saw the clip, it's about 9 seconds long with some extra sound over a black screen. The start point of this thread was really just someone riffing on their opinion of their interpretation of a decontextualised scene- Therefore its worth (relating to the film) is extremely questionable.

The action depicted has more than one obvious interpretation, therefore is not enough to condemn this movie at this stage on the grounds of this particular complaint.

——————
As to the morality of having sex with a partner who is intoxicated by alcohol, but not passed out initially -if that is in fact what the scene really shows- this can again go a number of ways.
I'd say the chief problem in that case is whether the intoxicated party has been manipulated into doing something they would not otherwise agree to do.
-Alcohol and being drunk does not make a person particularly suggestible, or prone to doing things they do not want to do. That's not how it works. -but it would make it easier for an aggressor to force someone to do something they didn't want to do.

Best to actually see the film, as lba's friend did, and see just how weak it really is… And judge for yourself about the infamous scene.
I dunno, it seems to me that the most interesting point raised in the clip was that the women were so horrified by the pervert. Why do certain people react that way? Most women I've talked to who've seen someone do that have just laughed. Is that an innately threatening or traumatising scene? Many of the flashing, masturbating perverts do actually graduate to rape, but still many more of them are pathetic, laughable specimens fit for nothing but derision and humiliation, which is what they normally get.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:33PM
Product Placement at 9:38AM, April 16, 2009
(online)
posts: 7,078
joined: 10-18-2007
Hyena H_ll
http://www.cinemablend.com/new/Observe-And-Report-Red-Band-Trailer-11909.html
Oh there it is! I watched the boring PG version of the trailer.



Holy s*** there's a lot of cursing in this movie.

I actually think now that the whole point of the movie is to curse as much as possible.

Also. That's not a date rape, just some dumb drunken sex… with cursing.

Also, also. This movie is now even more stupid looking in my eyes. I'm not gonna be spending money to see it.
Those were my two cents.
If you have any other questions, please deposit a quarter.
This space for rent.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:50PM

Forgot Password
©2011 WOWIO, Inc. All Rights Reserved