Debate and Discussion

Democrats are stupid
bravo1102 at 12:22AM, June 27, 2008
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Gamers Anonymous
As to your last point regarding the worst President in history, I'd have to cast my vote for Buchanan, Harding, Clinton, or Carter before Bush.
SpANG
I suppose that's why George Bush, the worst president this country has ever had, is still not impeached.

You sound like “comic book guy” from the Simpsons. (Worst episode ever)

Study history. If you read the contemporary accounts nearly every president when currently in office is considered the “Worst in history”. Even Washington had many detractors in his second term. How about Andrew Johnson, Andrew Jackson, Millard Filmore, Abraham Lincoln (so reviled the states seceded?)
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:33AM
Hawk at 9:06AM, June 27, 2008
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What you say makes sense, bravo… And it makes me wonder why. Do we simply realize that the things we hated about past presidents weren't so bad afterall, and we're so fixated on what the current one is doing wrong?

Maybe presidents are getting progressively worse. That's an unsettling thought.

Still, something tells me George W has caused enough trouble to be notably disliked even after his term is up.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:46PM
ozoneocean at 9:29AM, June 27, 2008
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Hawk
Maybe presidents are getting progressively worse. That's an unsettling thought.

Still, something tells me George W has caused enough trouble to be notably disliked even after his term is up.
Those are interesting points Hawk. I'd agree with your last one very strongly. In terms of bad things a U.S. president has done, it's very hard to compete with Iraq, not to mention overseeing a period with such a huge downturn in the U.S. economy, although I'm always a bit sceptical as to how much a political administration can be blamed for that sort of thing since all they have is influence and not direct power over it…

Nevertheless, the responsibility for Iraq was total, and the consequences of the successful invasion and failing occupation there and in Afghanistan ARE contributing in multifarious ways to many of the current economic woes.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:31PM
SpANG at 1:11PM, June 27, 2008
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…This, all the while, with little or no mention of the ratings of our glorious Democrat controlled Congress, which are ironically tanking worse than his.
Yeah gee, I wonder why? They can't get any of the initiatives through because ol' George is more than willing to pull out his VETO pen now.

The Dems have put through a lot of things, and they fail because half the congress is still republican (less one or two), and because of a few dissenters on the Dem side.

The fact that this congress doesn't seem to have any teeth is because they have a “fragile” majority, best case scenario. This means that every single Dem needs to agree on every initiative put forth. That never even happened in the overwhelming majority lock-step REPUBLICAN controlled congress.


Yet another way the “liberal” media plays things out.
“To a rational mind, nothing is inexplicable. Only unexplained.”
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:53PM
Gamers Anonymous at 2:57PM, June 28, 2008
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SpANG
Gamers Anonymous
…This, all the while, with little or no mention of the ratings of our glorious Democrat controlled Congress, which are ironically tanking worse than his.
Yeah gee, I wonder why? They can't get any of the initiatives through because ol' George is more than willing to pull out his VETO pen now.

The Dems have put through a lot of things, and they fail because half the congress is still republican (less one or two), and because of a few dissenters on the Dem side.

The fact that this congress doesn't seem to have any teeth is because they have a “fragile” majority, best case scenario. This means that every single Dem needs to agree on every initiative put forth. That never even happened in the overwhelming majority lock-step REPUBLICAN controlled congress.


Yet another way the “liberal” media plays things out.

While you never want to hand one side too much power, a “fragile” majority typically equates to compromise. Compromise typically equates to “nothing really gets accomplished.” Then again, this government wasn't initiatially designed to break into a party system.

I think one problem is that a vast majority of Congress members are disconnected from the people they're supposedly the representative of. They have their own agenda or blindly follow a party agenda. They foresake their duty as a true representative of the views and ideals of the territory they were elected to represent.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:32PM
SpANG at 9:29AM, June 30, 2008
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While you never want to hand one side too much power, a “fragile” majority typically equates to compromise. Compromise typically equates to “nothing really gets accomplished.” Then again, this government wasn't initiatially designed to break into a party system.
True enough, for the most part. But it's not a party thing. Both parties are equally as guilty.

Gamers Anonymous
I think one problem is that a vast majority of Congress members are disconnected from the people they're supposedly the representative of. They have their own agenda or blindly follow a party agenda. They foresake their duty as a true representative of the views and ideals of the territory they were elected to represent.

Not necessarily. How a member of congress is perceived LOCALLY may differ greatly from how congress is perceived nationally. If you poll a person as to “how is congress doing” they may say “Oh, they're a bunch of f**king idiots that can't get anything done.” Then ask the same person “how is your State Rep/Senator doing?” they may say “Great! He really has my interests at heart”

“To a rational mind, nothing is inexplicable. Only unexplained.”
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:53PM
bravo1102 at 5:53AM, July 1, 2008
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I don't see the presidents as any worse as they've ever been, it's just that their decisions have much more impact. The Federal gov't has put its tentacles into places the Founders never intended (ouch that hurt BOHICA*) so presidental decisions have more impact.

It can be argued that the founders intended gridlock because they wanted to keep the federal gov't limited in its powers and what it could do. (At least that's the impression I got from reading up on the Founders after my visit to the National Constitution Center)

I am becoming more and more grateful that G.W. Bush will be going away and soon.

BOHICA: Bend Over, Here It Comes Again. :)
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:33AM
ozoneocean at 4:13AM, July 2, 2008
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Is it just me or is there sometimes a little too much nostalgic reverence for the “founders”, They sound like some superior high thinking race in a scifi story with a moral from the mid 50's :)
I don't think they had any better idea of how to run a country than the present people. They were just a bunch of politicians and influential men wanting to have their say about how things were run. And back then the U.S. wasn't that place it is today. It was a good deal smaller and a good deal less influential in the world. There wasn't even a proper army which is why you still have those anachronistic gun laws today.

Referring back to old documents for ultimate authority is good in a way because they're ostensibly impartial, but they're also open to interpretation. Reminds me strongly of the way religious fundamentalists do things- , Muslim, Christian, Hindu, etc.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:31PM
Ronson at 5:11AM, July 2, 2008
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Yeah, there is certainly a certain amount of excessive nostalgia.

But have you read these documents? I mean really read them? They are beyond a doubt brilliant writing. The Declaration of Independence is my favorite, though it doesn't really have much to do with the actual format of our government.

As you say, the Constitution can be interpreted in many ways, mostly due to technologicial changes the founders hadn't predicted or considered. But at it's heart is the importance of constant vigilance of those who run the government. Say what you will about these old guys, the knew that ultimately it only takes a few dishonest politicians committing illegal acts to tear the fabric of a democracy apart…you know, kind of like what has happened (especially since the late 1800's - this ain't just a GWB issue).

Anyway, I give them a lot of credit because they did create something that - at least on paper - could certainly change the way people treated eachother. It was heavily borrowed from the Roman Republic model, of course, and they threw an awful lot of things in to prevent “the tyranny of the majority” - but it was without a doubt a brilliant document.

Where they messed up was in their failure to consider something along the lines of a parliamentary system - where leadership is guided by majority rule of the governing body, and can be changed fairly quickly. I think that that tends to take away some of the personality politics we're suffering from today. But you can't blame them for not thinking of everything.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:10PM
Hawk at 8:59AM, July 2, 2008
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I think a lot of the reverence for the founding fathers comes not only from the government they set up but for the revolution itself. Their act of rebellion made them fugitives from the king, but to the colonists at the time they were fighting for freedom and equality. Many of the founding fathers suffered for what they were fighting for, at some point or another.

I guess from the British point of view these guys were traitors and trouble-makers, but the benefactors of the revolution view them as heroes.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:46PM
bravo1102 at 12:02PM, July 2, 2008
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ozoneocean
Is it just me or is there sometimes a little too much nostalgic reverence for the “founders”, They sound like some superior high thinking race in a scifi story with a moral from the mid 50's :)
I don't think they had any better idea of how to run a country than the present people. They were just a bunch of politicians and influential men wanting to have their say about how things were run. And back then the U.S. wasn't that place it is today. It was a good deal smaller and a good deal less influential in the world. There wasn't even a proper army which is why you still have those anachronistic gun laws today.

Referring back to old documents for ultimate authority is good in a way because they're ostensibly impartial, but they're also open to interpretation. Reminds me strongly of the way religious fundamentalists do things- , Muslim, Christian, Hindu, etc.

Who's being reverent? The Founders themselves were rather irreverent. Though I do agree that some are entirely too reverent and Adams and the rest would not have agreed. If you read the Federalist papers (and Anti-Federalist papers) as well as a selection of the writings and biography of the various Founders you wouldn't say that.

Franklin: They are not demi-gods! Simple men, no more, no less.

Adams: Oh history'll not remember me, it'll be Franklin this, Franklin that…And Franklin stroked the ground with his cane and up rose George Washington, fully grown and on his horse and the three of them Franklin, Washington and the horse conducted the entire revolution by themselves.
Franklin: You know, I like it.

Adams: I'm not gogin to stand arund and listen to you quote yourself.
Franklin: Oh that's a new one!

(all quotes from 1776 but you'll be surprised just how closely it follows actual documents)
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:33AM
ozoneocean at 6:55AM, July 3, 2008
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Hawk
I guess from the British point of view these guys were traitors and trouble-makers, but the benefactors of the revolution view them as heroes.
They were fighting for independence, not freedom… There's a difference. Their slaves would tell you why. ;)
I think the British would have seen them as terrorists, especially if it would have happened today.
bravo1102
Who's being reverent?
The people today who talk about them and discuss their writings, no matter how well written they are.
As for your quotes: Hilarious! ^_^
But funnily enough that makes it sound even more like a story by Isaac Asimov, or Robert A. Heinlein or someone. It's exactly their sort of humour lol!

@Ronson- You don't have to be great people to write good things. I'm sure it's a wonderful document though. I wouldn't dispute that, not for a moment. :)
I just always have a lot of trouble with building real people up to be larger than life figures, no matter what they had a part in.
-Unless we're talking in the sense of fiction (Heinlein etc.), then it's perfectly ok.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:31PM
Ronson at 7:20AM, July 4, 2008
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ozoneocean
@Ronson- You don't have to be great people to write good things. I'm sure it's a wonderful document though. I wouldn't dispute that, not for a moment. :)
I just always have a lot of trouble with building real people up to be larger than life figures, no matter what they had a part in.
-Unless we're talking in the sense of fiction (Heinlein etc.), then it's perfectly ok.

I'd have to agree with you there. When we build people into mythic figures, it makes us forget that they were imperfect people just like the rest of us. It's also important to remember that in regards to those we consider enemies in history - Hitler & Stalin were just people who did things that were approved of (or at least not strenuously objected to) by the people of their nations.

When we pretend that someone like a Hitler is a mutation in the human race, we prevent ourselves from being vigilant in preventing the rise of another one. When we pretend that someone like Thomas Jefferson was godlike and will never be seen again, we slow our progress toward building a better society..

I'm only saying that the establishment of the United States - as it was written - is amazing. I don't for a second believe they actually believed all of their own words (especially in the context of modern society), I just think that if all Americans actually learned them and wanted what was written there, this would be a different world.

last edited on July 14, 2011 3:10PM
royduncan100 at 7:35PM, July 30, 2008
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we strip our selves apart by Race,Party,Religion,origin,sex and class.If the layers are stripped away,our preconceptions erased and our experiences forgotten and our wealth taken away all that is left is the human element.All races,All Parties,all religions and both sexes fail us on a daily basis,we get locked into this notion that our way of thinking is right,we all feel that WE MUST FIGHT THE GOOD FIGHT,with words of weapons.Why is it that we have the answers on the tip of our tongues instead of thinking deeply about the question.Why is it so important to be in agreement with the acceptable thinking of the group or pack when we know the truth lies somewhere in the middle.We like to think that we are original thinkers and yet there is a force that dries us to conform to what the pack sees as the norm,case in point.Race,Party,religion,origin,sex and class.We all fall into these categories and feel that WE are experts when we only have a small page of a book that has so many answers, but We are not willing to read to find the answers.Its too easy to point a finger,cast a judgment,make a statement without thinking of our fellow human.If we listen instead of talking,if we Do instead of dreaming,if we care instead of condemning we as humans could do and be so much.Anyway this extends beyond the discussion of the group but it came to the forefront of my mind after reading some of the posts.As artists we think out of the box,as we create we always get better at what we do,we see things our brother cannot see and create worlds that no one has been to.If that is reflectant in our art than we will surpass the norm.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:12PM

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