Debate and Discussion

Department of Justice blasts Net Nuetrality - game over?
SpANG at 3:39PM, Sept. 9, 2007
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I'm really concerned about this, but not that surprised. Looks like the internet will start to be regulated, just like radio and television are today. And just like those mediums today, the little guy will have no control and no audience. This is extremely bad news guys, especially for people like us, and anyone that wants a voice OUTSIDE of the corporatocracy.

What really bothers me is that hardly anybody knew this happened this weekend.

http://www.computerworld.com/action/
article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9034865


Not that it seems to matter anymore, but…


We should ALL be worried.
“To a rational mind, nothing is inexplicable. Only unexplained.”
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:52PM
Vindibudd at 3:50PM, Sept. 9, 2007
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Article
The DOJ, in a brief filed with the FCC, said Net neutrality rules could “inefficiently skew investment, delay innovation, and diminish consumer welfare.” Rules that would prohibit broadband providers from giving priority to their own Internet traffic and prohibit them from blocking or slowing competitors' traffic

This is like handicapping Chevy cars whenever they are pointed towards Ford dealerships. The Internet is the road and the service is the car. Companies don't own the road and they don't own the car. If Embarq wants to market their service to me, they better not make it their little intranet.

Article
could also prevent providers from charging fees for priority service, the DOJ said. This could, in turn, cause fees to increase to all broadband users, the DOJ said.

I don't see how it increases fees for everyone because X company can't screw people just the way they like. The Internet is just fine the way it is. This is an example of why I am a conservative. The government getting involved and screwing with the free market is always a bad thing.
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:42PM
SpANG at 4:10PM, Sept. 9, 2007
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Vindibudd
The Internet is just fine the way it is.
That point is now moot. One of two things are going to happen.

1. Internet access companies will give higher bandwidth to companies that pay more. “Mom and Pop” sites will not have a chance to achieve an audience.

2. Everyone gets the same access to their websites, and internet companies can't control that.


If you wanted the internet to stay the way it is, then you WANTED Net Neutrality.


“To a rational mind, nothing is inexplicable. Only unexplained.”
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:52PM
subcultured at 4:10PM, Sept. 9, 2007
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dirty.

for such a superpower we are pretty behind with information
Someone
European countries and Singapore have surpassed the United States in their ability to exploit information and communication technology, according to a new survey.

The United States, which topped the World Economic Forum's “networked readiness index” in 2006, slipped to seventh. The study, out Wednesday, largely blamed increased political and corporate interference in the judicial system.

The index, which measures the range of factors that affect a country's ability to harness information technologies for economic competitiveness and development, also cited the United States' low rate of mobile telephone usage, a lack of government leadership in information technology and the low quality of mathematics and science education.

and this crap just makes it worst. thanks greedy companies. thanks for stamping down on innovations and bleeding america dry. how political of you
J
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:02PM
Ronson at 5:02PM, Sept. 9, 2007
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This is an example of why I am a conservative. The government getting involved and screwing with the free market is always a bad thing.

Except that in this case, you're off base completely.

1. Only the government can regulate the way companies bill their clients for the internet. If it's the “free market” system, they get to do whatever they please which includes creating a system where more dollars get the better connection.

2. Most conservatives in government today do not want net nuetrality. They feel that it would be excessive government control over free enterprise.


The thing that gets me - and it gets me every time it happens - is that our taxes paid for the creation of the internet. Our taxes paid to improve the internet infrastructure, with new lines being installed across the nation.

Now that it exists in a pretty convenient package, the corporations are looking to get an even larger slice of the pie.

Don't think this is new. It happened to newspapers, it happened to radio and it happened to television. OF COURSE it's going to happen to the internet.

Within a decade, the internet will be a source of vapid and useless information just like television is.

___

Another interesting development is that Comcast is now charging people for excessive bandwidth usage even if they were paying for “unlimited” service. Apparently, unlimited only means that which is used within normal internet usage.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:10PM
Vindibudd at 6:02PM, Sept. 9, 2007
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SpANG
If you wanted the internet to stay the way it is, then you WANTED Net Neutrality.


Did I say that I did not want Net Neutrality?
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:42PM
Vindibudd at 6:19PM, Sept. 9, 2007
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Ronson
Except that in this case, you're off base completely.
1. Only the government can regulate the way companies bill their clients for the internet. If it's the “free market” system, they get to do whatever they please which includes creating a system where more dollars get the better connection.

I am not talking about how the government tells people they can or cannot bill people. I am talking about the government saying what is or is not best for a company to do in the free market. There is a difference.

Ronson
2. Most conservatives in government today do not want net nuetrality. They feel that it would be excessive government control over free enterprise.

Do you mean “conservative” or do you mean “Republican”? I view the Internet not as a good, but as the public airwaves. The government created the Internet with public tax dollars and now companies are trying to limit public access to the thing that public money funded. That is where I think the government needs to stay out of the issue.

Ronson
The thing that gets me - and it gets me every time it happens - is that our taxes paid for the creation of the internet. Our taxes paid to improve the internet infrastructure, with new lines being installed across the nation.

Exactly.

Ronson
Now that it exists in a pretty convenient package, the corporations are looking to get an even larger slice of the pie.

Exactly.

Ronson
Don't think this is new. It happened to newspapers, it happened to radio and it happened to television. OF COURSE it's going to happen to the internet.

Exactly.

Ronson
Within a decade, the internet will be a source of vapid and useless information just like television is.

I'm not giving up yet.

Ronson
Another interesting development is that Comcast is now charging people for excessive bandwidth usage even if they were paying for “unlimited” service. Apparently, unlimited only means that which is used within normal internet usage.

Time for a lawsuit for breach of contract.
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:42PM
SpANG at 6:49PM, Sept. 9, 2007
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Vindibudd
SpANG
If you wanted the internet to stay the way it is, then you WANTED Net Neutrality.


Did I say that I did not want Net Neutrality?
Um. I guess not. You just said that you didn't want the government to get involved, which in this case, they need to. Hmm, sorry if I missed something?
“To a rational mind, nothing is inexplicable. Only unexplained.”
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:52PM
lefarce at 8:36PM, Sept. 9, 2007
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SpANG
Vindibudd
The Internet is just fine the way it is.
That point is now moot. One of two things are going to happen.

1. Internet access companies will give higher bandwidth to companies that pay more. “Mom and Pop” sites will not have a chance to achieve an audience.

2. Everyone gets the same access to their websites, and internet companies can't control that.


If you wanted the internet to stay the way it is, then you WANTED Net Neutrality.




The fact that this is the case does not shock me one bit. So long as there are lobbyists floating about in our government the majority of the American people will never get what they want. Money speaks louder than words.

And here I was thinking overused 300 memes were the worst thing about the net at the moment. Not too happy about being wrong on that. :/

 
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:31PM
Ronson at 4:35AM, Sept. 10, 2007
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I think I get what you're saying now, Vindi, that the involvement of the courts caused net neutrality to disappear.

Which is true. But our legislative branch has done nothing to protect net neutrality, which allowed corporations to sue for the rights to obliterate it.

As for when I say “conservatives” I mean Republicans…I wish! No, I mean all the “free market” “less government” nutballs that only believe those two phrases when attached to corporate interests. In this case, that includes Republicans and quite a large chunk of the Democrats.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:10PM
mapaghimagsik at 6:36AM, Sept. 10, 2007
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The internet is already filled with vapid and useless information. I site a couple of examples.

The Gartner Group estimated at one point that somewhere around 8 out of 10 emails are spam.

There are Botnets which have infected approximately 50 million computers – powerful enough to provide more processing power than your top end supercomputers, if the botnet were directed to do so.

There's this weird idea that somehow companies somehow are the bastion of a free market, and that if the government would leave it alone the market would be “free”.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:51PM
lefarce at 9:46AM, Sept. 10, 2007
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Ok, I'll admit that up until now I took a very “well, there isn't anything I can do about it” approch to this whole thing. But after doing some more reading and learning just how bad of a thing this is, I'm interested. Is there anything we can do now to help prevent these companies from taking over the net, or are we doomed now that net neutrality is gone?

And how bad could this affect DrunkDuck in the future? Could is possibly have a large negative impact on webcomics?


 
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:31PM
SpANG at 10:02AM, Sept. 10, 2007
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lefarce
Ok, I'll admit that up until now I took a very “well, there isn't anything I can do about it” approch to this whole thing. But after doing some more reading and learning just how bad of a thing this is, I'm interested. Is there anything we can do now to help prevent these companies from taking over the net, or are we doomed now that net neutrality is gone?
I'd start here >>>> http://savetheinternet.com/

lefarce
And how bad could this affect DrunkDuck in the future? Could is possibly have a large negative impact on webcomics?
It could have a devastating affect on webcomics and Drunk Duck. And lots of other smaller sites. The only sites that would have any competitive advantage are the HUGE corporations that pay cable/internet providers extra.

Additionally, if the internet gets regulated, we'll have to pay francise fees, surcharges, and lots of other taxes just like phone and cable. Not to mention the censoring of anyone that wants to have an opposing voice. The internet is the last bastion of free speech.
“To a rational mind, nothing is inexplicable. Only unexplained.”
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:52PM
lefarce at 10:06AM, Sept. 10, 2007
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And most of us already know that Volte and Platinum pay like crazy for server fees alone. Yeah, that would be pretty damn bad.

Why not make a news post about this, SpANG? It sounds like something I think almost every DDer should know about, specially if it's going to have such a huge impact on our subculture.

I'll take a look at that site, hopefully I help with something, be it signing a petition or writing my congressman. I never really saw the extent of the problem until last night when I did some research on it. I only thought it would slow some sites down and put a name on who owns the net. But it extends far past that, and in a very chilling way.

 
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:31PM
subcultured at 10:45AM, Sept. 10, 2007
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maaaaan big biz is moving in.

first it was internet radio now this. freaking greedy bastards
J
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:02PM
SpANG at 11:23AM, Sept. 10, 2007
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lefarce
And most of us already know that Volte and Platinum pay like crazy for server fees alone. Yeah, that would be pretty damn bad.

Why not make a news post about this, SpANG? It sounds like something I think almost every DDer should know about, specially if it's going to have such a huge impact on our subculture.

I'll take a look at that site, hopefully I help with something, be it signing a petition or writing my congressman. I never really saw the extent of the problem until last night when I did some research on it. I only thought it would slow some sites down and put a name on who owns the net. But it extends far past that, and in a very chilling way.
I'd like to, but it's a political issue, and people are going to have a problem no matter what. I can't even pretend to know where Platinum stands.

“To a rational mind, nothing is inexplicable. Only unexplained.”
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:52PM
SpANG at 12:10PM, Sept. 10, 2007
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Here's another excellent and informative film:

“To a rational mind, nothing is inexplicable. Only unexplained.”
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:52PM
ccs1989 at 1:29PM, Sept. 10, 2007
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I don't view this as being the fault of either liberals or conservatives. The truth of the matter is that older people are scared of the Internet. They don't like it. And what is congress and the Justice Department? For the most part they're white old men who see this new technology as a threat to their way of life. To them the internet is a vat of chaos and confusion. There is truth in this. 4chan is a scary place. Pornography is everywhere on the net. The little havens of artistic creativity tend to get squelched into a tiny space by the “louder” more “obvious” negatives, at least in the politician's mind. Politicians like to think that they have power over the world, and the Internet to them represents anarchy. It doesn't help that America is a super power and on the verge if not already an Empire. This makes American politicians especially think they can control everything.

I would like it if people would actually band together and hold the politicians accountable. However there's not a lot of mobilization to fight the powers that be or to bring politicians to task. Most voting adults are too busy working to worry about things like the “internet”.

Of course what would be ideal about this situation is if the “fast lane” could be for the richer companies who pay the cost but that all other sites would still be at the same speed that they were before. That might be good for the economy. I don't know if that's what the companies are doing (I doubt not). However I do actually trust the corporations to control the pipes more than the government. I don't mind corporations trying to make money as long as it's ethical but I do mind if certain political sites are censured by officials so that they become slower, whether they're liberal or conservative.
http://ccs1989.deviantart.com

“If one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours.”
-Henry David Thoreau, Walden
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:39AM
SpANG at 1:43PM, Sept. 10, 2007
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It's not about fear. It's about greed and control. It's a way to silence the voice of the average citizen speaking out. Plain and simple.
“To a rational mind, nothing is inexplicable. Only unexplained.”
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:52PM
ccs1989 at 1:46PM, Sept. 10, 2007
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The companies might be greedy but the politicians are probably complying because they are afraid or are at least wary of this new technology. I'm not saying they're ludites but they might be ignorant about technology.
http://ccs1989.deviantart.com

“If one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours.”
-Henry David Thoreau, Walden
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:39AM
lefarce at 1:50PM, Sept. 10, 2007
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ccs1989
The companies might be greedy but the politicians are probably complying because they are afraid or are at least wary of this new technology. I'm not saying they're ludites but they might be ignorant about technology.

I think it's a bit of both, actually. Fear mixed with the concept of getting money from these companies. Although everyone has their reasons, the point remains the same. While the net may be chaotic, the plan that these companies have is certainly not the way to go about things.

 
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:31PM
Hawk at 1:59PM, Sept. 10, 2007
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I could see both fear and control being motivating factors, but that's for the congressmen who would approve of these changes.

The root of it all is greed, and that's coming from the companies that want to do the controlling (AT&T, Comcast, etc.). They see an opportunity to get more money by crippling people who don't pay them.

I think the worst thing could be actual censorship from these companies… For instance, imagine you're a Comcast customer and you try to visit DirectTV's homepage, but the page is seemingly always offline.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:46PM
mapaghimagsik at 4:26PM, Sept. 10, 2007
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Hawk
I could see both fear and control being motivating factors, but that's for the congressmen who would approve of these changes.

The root of it all is greed, and that's coming from the companies that want to do the controlling (AT&T, Comcast, etc.). They see an opportunity to get more money by crippling people who don't pay them.

I think the worst thing could be actual censorship from these companies… For instance, imagine you're a Comcast customer and you try to visit DirectTV's homepage, but the page is seemingly always offline.

AT&T has already engaged in actual stripping of content they don't approve of. So, we're already there, unfortunately
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:51PM
subcultured at 7:49PM, Sept. 10, 2007
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this is why hackers try to bring these companies down.

fighting such unfair actions against internet freedom
J
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:02PM
mlai at 4:18AM, Sept. 11, 2007
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Go hackers! Bring it on! Bring the war to them!
For freeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeedom~!!!

What happens to international connections if the worst case scenario happens in the USA?

FIGHT current chapter: Filling In The Gaps
FIGHT_2 current chapter: Light Years of Gold
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:05PM
lefarce at 6:32AM, Sept. 11, 2007
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No, they wouldn't, Sub. Hackers aren't some brutes who recklessly attack sites with computer magic. They aren't evil mean people either. They're smarter than that. Attacking a large site while it was a level of owner ship over the net would get them caught, first of all, and secondly it would justify their acquisition of the web. The companies would turn around and say “see? You need us!”



 
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:31PM
StaceyMontgomery at 7:02AM, Sept. 11, 2007
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I favor net neutrality. Losing it is going to make things bad for everyone - and bad for business.

This is why you need government regulations sometimes. “markets” are, by definition, reasonably well ordered places where commerce can happen. Without some regulations and rules to create markets, you just have pirates and bandits.

And you don't have net neutrality.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:55PM
lothar at 3:40PM, Sept. 11, 2007
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ask yourself this - what's going to happen when the ISPs merge with computer makers like apple and dell ? imagine the new line of “safe” machines - fast, virus proof, and family friendly ; combine that with direct tv and you get the all in one household media device they have been talking about for years. the next generation of internet users will not be using the internet as we know it. they will be paying to access the “new” internet, built on top of our internet. we will be sidelined and marginalized. the old internet will be a back alley to their massive toll road. these media giants will portray the “old net” as nothing but a breeding ground for hackers, pedophiles, and terrorists!
in 20 years people will sit down on their couch at their integrated media device and order up entertainment much like they order a pizza, paying for each use and owning Nothing; the prefect consumers! they will not remember or care that the internet used to be a place where they had a voice. personal cominications will degrade to the level of the vidphone; no more emails, forums, wicki, No more web comics !!! all that will go out with the 1st internet. the makers of internet 2 will not have the stomach for individuality on that scale. if they can't control it - exclude it.
and that leaves us out in the cold, underground , with our antique technology; old geezers ranting about the good old days when we could post our comics with no problems , and actually have people reading them . watching as sites ,one by one , dissapeer from the net as the old servers are unplugged. that's why i say , We will be Marginalized !! those crazy old cranks that pine for the lost days of some inferior technology for reasons the younger generation of net2 users will never grasp !!!
anybody remember ham radio ?
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:45PM
lefarce at 4:24PM, Sept. 11, 2007
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lothar
ask yourself this - what's going to happen when the ISPs merge with computer makers like apple and dell ? imagine the new line of “safe” machines - fast, virus proof, and family friendly ; combine that with direct tv and you get the all in one household media device they have been talking about for years. the next generation of internet users will not be using the internet as we know it. they will be paying to access the “new” internet, built on top of our internet. we will be sidelined and marginalized. the old internet will be a back alley to their massive toll road. these media giants will portray the “old net” as nothing but a breeding ground for hackers, pedophiles, and terrorists!
in 20 years people will sit down on their couch at their integrated media device and order up entertainment much like they order a pizza, paying for each use and owning Nothing; the prefect consumers! they will not remember or care that the internet used to be a place where they had a voice. personal cominications will degrade to the level of the vidphone; no more emails, forums, wicki, No more web comics !!! all that will go out with the 1st internet. the makers of internet 2 will not have the stomach for individuality on that scale. if they can't control it - exclude it.
and that leaves us out in the cold, underground , with our antique technology; old geezers ranting about the good old days when we could post our comics with no problems , and actually have people reading them . watching as sites ,one by one , dissapeer from the net as the old servers are unplugged. that's why i say , We will be Marginalized !! those crazy old cranks that pine for the lost days of some inferior technology for reasons the younger generation of net2 users will never grasp !!!
anybody remember ham radio ?

lol, what?

 
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:31PM
lothar at 4:38PM, Sept. 11, 2007
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yea, lol it up ! that's the future . you don't get it ?
the internet in it's current state is raw freedom of speech, nothing threatens the corporate overloards more than that ! and , after all , they are the ones in control. not the white haired old men in congress! politicians are just their tools
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:45PM

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