Debate and Discussion

Discipline methods
Aussie_kid at 5:59AM, Dec. 23, 2006
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I took my cousin shopping a few weeks ago so he could pick out something for Christmas. He starts asking for everything he sees. I tell him he's only getting $70 worth of stuff (Since that's how much his parents gave me). He goes mental, throwing a full blown tantrum. He gets on the floor, kicking, screaming and crying. I stood there watching him for a good ten minutes, telling him it wasn't going to work on me, before he finally gave up and listened to me.

Here's the problem: No one agrees with my method. Now, had he started ripping apart all the toys or otherwise causing grief for others (Minus the noise), I would have stopped him, but my way was just as effective. Since then, he has not thrown a tantrum when I'm in charge, knowing it won't work. However, when it comes to every one else, he goes full out because they eventually give in or hit him.

The pros: He doesn't learn violence is the answer. I'm not taking away TV or sweets, which basically tells him they're a neccessity to life. He doesn't stew in misery for ten minutes thinking about how much he hates me.

The cons: I was the centre of attention for about ten minutes. I had to carry him home because he had exhausted himself.

So what do you guys think? Will I be the world's worst father with my own kids or do I have a good idea?
Insanity Complex: We may not be insane, but we like to think we are
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:11AM
ozoneocean at 7:00AM, Dec. 23, 2006
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Your method probably worked on you cousin because his tantrums probably always get some useful results when he tries them on others. When he tried it on you, it failed to achieve anything and you didn't make it worse by restraining or hitting him, so he had no reason to continue. But in another child who had different reasons for having a tantrum, your method might make things worse: Perhaps it would escalate it's behaviour in order to attract your attention, destroying shop property or running away?

It depends on the individual Aussie: both the one who's looking after the child and the child itself. Your method might work on that boy perfectly, but would it work on others just as effectively? When I've trained my pet dogs, cats and even a bunny or two, I know the same types of discipline just wouldn't work on every animal, regardless of species, sex, or age. Different personalities take things different ways. Sometimes loud voices work, sometimes a little whack on the bum, sometimes rewards, soft voices, it depends. Rabbits are just naturally bad though. :(

I was looking after a child once (the son of a friend of my dad's). He had a history of dropping his pants and urinating on people who he had a problem with. He threatened to do this to me right in the middle of a shopping centre, and even started undoing his trousers. So I held up my foot and aimed it at his crotch, telling him that if he did I'd kick him where it hurts. It worked and he settled right down. He was known as an extreme brat but I never again had any trouble with him.

But with someone like my young niece I'd never, ever act that way, ever! :) Mostly because she's a little girl, but also because I know she wouldn't respond to that sort of thing; it doesn't work when her mum spanks her anyway. With her I use psychological tricks and ruses. It's easy when you realise who you're dealing with: attention spans are VERY short and certain insignificant things have WAY more meaning to them- which also helps you understand why they do things wrong… Anyway, physical punishment represents nothing but a complete FAILURE of discipline generally. If a child keeps on needing spankings, then spankings aren't working and will have a much worse affect. Just the mere threat of physical retribution should be enough after the first time (It always worked with me when I was little;)), and clever manipulation should work even better. Try not to reward bad behaviour, try to reward GOOD behaviour, and try to understand just exactly why they did something wrong in the first place.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:25PM
lothar at 7:45AM, Dec. 23, 2006
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70$ ? what a spoiled brat !!!
you know what i would have done, took him to the bar and make him watch me drink his stupid christma$ !!!

seriously , i think a lot of kids are just spoiled undisciplined and selfish. there like proto-humans trying to figure out just how far they can push the regular humans!
i know when i was a kid all i did is watch gilligans island and drink coffee, and eat powdered kool aid. but i minded my own buisiness or i got smacked . not like these kids i see everyday , they're always cussing and trying to spit on me or punch me in the balls. No Fear = No Respect !
its all this telletuby rubrats sh*t. theres not enuf violence on tv , so kids don't take most threats seriously. skipper was always smacking Gilligan around when he skrewed up. i'm not sayin you should beat on your kids , but they need to see some consequences for acting like an ass! the tv is there , let it do all the work! like when murdoch on the A team was skrewing around with a stuffed bear in the middle of a machine gun battle and the bear got its head blown off , now that's psychology!!!!
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:45PM
Priceman at 12:49PM, Dec. 23, 2006
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Sounds to me that your method would work for you, but apparently he's been able to crack his parents. I believe that if you spent as much time with him as his parents, he'd be use to you and wouldn't have backed off so easily. I doubt that his parents would be able to do the same thing. The one thing i don't get is why people associate spankings with “lessons in violence”. In my opinion, spanking a child when s/he misbehaves is teaching the lesson “breaking the rules (or law) comes with consequences; usually painful ones”. And they will be much more painful when this child grows up and ends up in a detention center or prison.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:47PM
Black_Kitty at 12:51PM, Dec. 23, 2006
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I do agree that different children respond differently. It also depends on who you are to the child. Being the child's cousin and being his father are two totally different things.

I wouldn't be surprised if someone who had been giving in to his tantrums did what you did, he would start ripping into toys and causing other people grief. Oh me kicking and screaming and making a scene isn't working? Well it usually works. I'll just up the antes then. I'll kick you and rip into the toys. Let's see if you can ignore that.

I think there's also this self-conscious thing happening with parents. It's embarassing to have your child make a scene just because you wouldn't buy them a toy. You may wonder if other people think you're a bad parent. You may wonder if you're doing something wrong. You may wonder how something as innocent as buying a toy for your child could turn into this. You may just want that giant loudspeaker with motor legs to stop kicking and screaming lest one of you die of embarassment.

I confess that I sometimes take the easy route. There's a boy at work that's always talking and touching things when class is over. The touching is okay since I just remove all the things he could really do damage to (unless he feels like lifting up a Christmas tree. :P) But the talking isn't acceptable. It disturbs the older students from working. Talking to him didn't work and his parents are constantly late in picking him up. So I give him candy. I figure if he uses his mouth to eat, he can't use it to talk too.

And hey it worked~
  
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:24AM
mapaghimagsik at 1:55PM, Dec. 23, 2006
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Word, kitty. However, I would hope that the parents would be more embarassed to show that tantrums work on them. But, parenting is hard work, and children do have a special talent for knowing when a vigilant parent is tired, off-balance, or vulnerable. Though I did learn very quickly I could get far more by being sweet and batting my eyes.

In short, children have terrible powers, and no compunctions against using them ;)

All kidding aside, its worth having a discussion with the parents about the nephews behavior, I think. The reason is because they have to be able to trust the kid around other adults.

Now for me, hindsight is 20/20. Luckily, when I go out with younger nephews, the parents make a big deal of “Now if X misbehaves, you just bring them right back and we'll deal with it.” The word “deal” had an ominious tone to it, filled with all sorts of dire consquences. I swear the sky darkened and there was some sort of tortured cry in the distance. In any event, my nephews have never seriously misbehaved. (*knock*knock*)

That, and my nephews are the greatest kids in the world. Ever. There will never be nephews so great, so don't even try.

nota bene: I'm not a parent. If I were, my kids would make the coolest nephews in the world, bar none. ;)


last edited on July 14, 2011 1:51PM
Tantz Aerine at 2:33PM, Dec. 23, 2006
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Everyone has posted beautiful comments here, but speaking as someone who has worked with kids a LOT (I'm an educator) and their parents (I have to educate them on academic issues of their kids… among other things)… there is one possibility that you have not considered:

The parent might actually like the kid's misbehavior and refusal to listen to reason/discipline. Thus no method in the world is going to douse the symptoms, since the kid senses that this is what is ultimately desired/ what is gaining him/her status in the family.

Parents have many times complained about how kids are insubordiate and they feel at a loss, in ways like this, by a steamrolled father talking to me of his attitude-challenged son:

“Oh I know. He has trashed my house. He talks back to me in front of visitors and kicks me when I won't give him chocolate.”
“You should then do and decide that you are a parent and he is the child and this is the way things are for the better development of both,” I reply.

And then comes the wonderful comment, as the parent's eyes gleam and the lips crease in a proud smile of a rather sodding bloody braggart:

“He's such a cool tough man-boy, isn't he, doing all that at this age?”

I had a good mind to slap that damn father across the face with my clipboard. The only thing that saved him was that I was also holding a mug full of my fav coffee brew.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:06PM
mapaghimagsik at 5:59PM, Dec. 23, 2006
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Wow. Thats just. Wow.

Is it too late to perform forced vasectomies on these people?

Wait. I know, I know. It *is* too late.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:51PM
Aurora Moon at 8:02PM, Dec. 23, 2006
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I'm with tantz on this one… parents like that are just ugh.

I once got peed on by an 7-year-old boy. a SEVEN-YEAR-OLD!! boys at that age should know better. thatwas when I was babysitting, and I used an relay service to call the parents…and when they finally arrived, they did NOTHING other than to pay me the amount, and to laugh about that situation. they didn't even apolize to me about that. they just made an comment like “you shouldn't do that to people, you know.” to their kid.
not even an punishment. at least they could do is give me extra money for cleaning clothes or something.

I wouldn't be surpised if their kids end up being scat fetishists at an adult age. >.<
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last edited on July 14, 2011 11:09AM
Tantz Aerine at 8:47AM, Dec. 24, 2006
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Aurora Moon
I'm with tantz on this one… parents like that are just ugh.

not even an punishment. at least they could do is give me extra money for cleaning clothes or something.



Since they were so unconcerned, you should have asked them to pay cleaner's for you. Demanded it, I mean. If someone doesn't know his/her place, you show him/her what that place should be.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:06PM
hat at 6:06PM, Dec. 24, 2006
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http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=beat

In all seriousness I think it might be necessary to smack your kids if they keep acting up. I mean as long as it's for a good reason I think it's a reasonable action if your kid is that disobedient (as long as you don't mob assault them with weapons or something over-the-top like that). It keeps your kids in line, it's basically a message saying “Respect my authority, or else!”
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:45PM
lothar at 6:54PM, Dec. 24, 2006
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yea, i would't want to have Maddox for a dad !!!
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:45PM
ozoneocean at 11:01PM, Dec. 24, 2006
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Spanking kids is fine for serious stuff, but if you have to do it too often, then it's not working and is probably just abuse. That's an important distinction. Physically punish kids too much and it will have an extremely negative effect: they'll hate you, become injured, they will not respect you; they'll fear you, and most punishment will mean nothing to them. Why should they respect authority when authority has no respect for them? Just like animals who're over punished, such people turn into vicious feral beasts. There is no way to control them.

I know when I was little I would get spanked for doing something really bad, but I wouldn't get spanked every time and I did something just slightly naughty. And because spanking was one of “the ultimate” punishments, I'd fear the threat of the punishment just as much as the punishment itself.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:25PM
mapaghimagsik at 1:47AM, Dec. 25, 2006
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I've read that the key to any kind of physical discipline is not to do it in anger. Easier said than done. I know I've wanted to smack some other people's kids, which is bad and wrong and all that. I settle for smacking the parents ;)
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:51PM
Tantz Aerine at 7:00PM, Dec. 25, 2006
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I don't think spanking is necessary. It's consistency of messages that is important. Messages as to what works, what doesn't, what's good behavior, what isn't, and the like.

My parents have never spanked me once, yet I have always been very disciplined. My grandmother had spanked me, but I never seemed to be phased by the spanking. (not that it was often… heh). What I did heed a LOT in the disciplining was the consistency of ‘cause-effect’. Logical cause and effect relationships. E.g., if I had a toy I liked, and I broke it out of carelessness or spite, then I would not get a replacement. I would simply not have that toy. If I wanted a new one, I'd have to squeeze it out of allowance, and that meant without asking of adults to buy me what I would normally get with the allowance. Also, if I was rude or unruly, I caused anger and was shown that my behavior (not me per se, but the behavior currently projected) was not acceptable and I would not get what I was trying to achieve. However with the shifting of the behavior, I would immediately have a better result.

And there was talking. A LOT of talking. To sort out motives and impulses and plan ahead for next time. I guess that's because my mom is a shrink. But honestly… corporal punishment had not once been needed.

Still, I agree with ozoneocean when it comes to actually using it. That is also consistent and healthy a pattern to use :)
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:06PM
shadowmagi at 11:21AM, Jan. 12, 2007
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I'd say in that situation it was perfect. You didn't have to yell at him, spank him, or even leave the store. And he came out of it better, too, without a really bad memory of you losing your temper. Sure, the other people had to endure it for ten minutes, but i'm sure they weren't traumatized.

Sure, if it had been another kid, things likely would've gone differently. But like i said, for that situation, what you did was fine.


As per the spanking thing, I'm of the opinion that if the kid is doing something to endanger themselves or someone else, and you've already spoken to them several times, then one (and only one) swat on the bum to show you mean it is necessary. But that's it. Repetitive hitting makes it too easy for the parent to go overboard and vent their frustrations in a physical manner.

When i was little, my mom did that a couple times ^.^'' (lost her temper and went overboard). Not pleasant. But if we were in a store, and me or my siblings acted up, she simply took us out of the store and went home. Simple as that. And that removed any possibility of us running away, destroying merchandise, or causing a bigger scene.

*Psst*
….
(i like feedback~!)
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:32PM
mlai at 6:27PM, Jan. 12, 2007
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Hmm… physical punishment… OK, a few thoughts…

(1)If you're a woman and a soft personality by nature, and you don't really believe in hitting your kids… don't even bother doing it. Cuz the kid won't be scared. My mother tried physical punishment on me a few times… I was never scared or “disciplined.” And it's not as if I was hardcore and resistant to pain; I was little. She just didn't have it in her. Really, it's not about the pain.

(2)If you're confident you'll be able to dish out pain, fear, and “discipline,” say if you're a man or something, then think long-term… Will you still be scary to your kid when he's 16? My dad is special forces, and has killed ppl in ops with his hands. He's an implacable authority figure to me, and will be to the day he dies. So his discipline works, albeit at the cost of emotional closeness to me. But if you're a small man and your kid can physically and psychologically challenge you at 16, be careful of backlash when he realizes you're no longer scary. If you're gonna use fear for discipline, make sure you can keep it up thru the dreaded teen years.

FIGHT current chapter: Filling In The Gaps
FIGHT_2 current chapter: Light Years of Gold
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:05PM
Tantz Aerine at 2:38AM, Jan. 13, 2007
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Fear as a disciplinary method does not really secure compliance. While the method might be effective for short term results, it may have really disturbing long term results. If the feared element is removed from the picture, there is no reason for the child not to behave in the undesirable way. I mean that such a discipline, while it may work for a while, will inadvertedly lead to deviance- and hidden deviance at that, because the child will eventually grow to learn and believe that: “It's okay to do anything as long as you don't get caught.”

It really presents a disturbing assertion and life motto, doesn't it?
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:06PM

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