Debate and Discussion

do people put too much importance on marriage?
Aurora Moon at 8:41PM, May 4, 2006
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I was watching Sex in the city, and there was a very interesting episode about how there was some people out there that seemed to view marriage as the holy grail of an “perfect” life, and how desperate some people could get to the point where they'd ask anybody to marry them within 3 weeks of dating, without even barely knowing the person.

and then that got me to thinking….

there's always this society's expectation that eventually in an person's life, they'll get married or something. Have married, and have kids.. that sort of thing.
and a lot of people view that as the only type of lifestyle that's “perfect”.
that it makes for an perfect family life, and makes for an perfect couple's because then it supposedly means that you two will be together for a long time, or something.

So if that's the ideal, perfect family unit–a man and an woman married with kids, then what about the single parents with kids out there? or what about unmarried couples that have kids… are they inferior or less of an family in some way?

plus, whenever I say that marriage seems stupid to me,and that I don't think that I'm ever the marrying type despite the fact that I happen to believe in staying faithful to only one person if you're serious about somebody… people always look at me as if I just grew an second head.

I mean, honestly.. there's tons of people out there who stayed together for years, and even lived together without ever marrying…. and they were happy as could ever be.

and many logic processes that I've seen behind people thinking that Marriage in life is the only way to go is:
1) it's the only way to have an truly nice life due to two incomes, etc.
2) it's the only way to have an “perfect” family life, with “well rounded kids”.
3)it's the only way to have an stable love life.

to which I say:
1) huh, what? there's a lot of singles and unmarried couples out there who does pretty good in life, being married has nothing to do with having an nice life with all the nice cars and stuff.
2) there are plenty of well-rounded and stable kids that comes from single parents and unmarried couples.
3) even married people can have unstable love lives. and single people can have stable love lives.

so what are your thoughts on this? does society put too much value and importance on marriage? especially when the way marriage was used and the reasons behind marriage isn't the way it was anymore.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 11:09AM
ozoneocean at 3:51AM, May 5, 2006
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Marriage is good as a symbolic adjunct to the union of two people. I don't think there's any problem with marriage at all, the trouble is that these days it's become devalued: people are just way to off-hand and immature about the concept of marriage. People are more focused on their own individuality, they're more selfish about things. For many people marriage is just something you can throw away, take or leave. If it means anything to them at all, it’s just the image, or the idea of the ceremony, or some childish fantasy.

But those people who stay together years and year and never get married, those are the ones who really do value it. They value the principal, and actual formal marriage to them has so much meaning and baggage that they don't ever want to go through with it. They’re some of the people who not only really show what marriage is all about, the idea of “marriage” often means more to them than most married couples!

-Lots of generalisation in what I said just there-
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:23PM
Aurora Moon at 1:10PM, May 5, 2006
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the reason why I don't ever want to get married is because of the Baggage, as you put it…

the baggage of legal paperwork, the baggage of people (especially parents) expecting you to have an beautiful wedding ceremony that costs millions of dollars or at least having an wedding that looks like it could cost million of dollars. and also the legal baggage of going though who owns the stuff in your home and things like that if the marriage didn't work out in the next years for some whatever reasons.

sure, it's an beautiful, wonderful symbol of two people declaring to the world that they are together, but that's just that. an symbol.

one doesn't have to be married to appreciate the notion of there being only one person out there for you, and being with that person forever.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 11:09AM
mykill at 3:33PM, May 5, 2006
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Marriage isn't for everyone.

But marriage does have its functions. It certifies the relationship as permanent and official, overruling inlaws and establishing a solid international secular status appropriate for a permanent relationship. If children are involved, they tend to appreciate mommy and daddy being in a permanant sanctioned relationship as well - the ‘wanting to conform thing’ is powerful for children.

A gay man, my permanent relationship is recognized locally at BEST, to establish the ability to visit my partner in the hospital as family, death benefits and all that malarky that married people take for granted, I have to go thru years of paperwork, red tape and waiting. And THEN it's a crapshoot if any of that legal work is legally binding.

So, don't marry if you don't want to. But value having that option.

If you simply don't like the institution of an expensive wedding, - that's not marriage.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:09PM
SpANG at 4:22PM, May 5, 2006
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Mykill has a very good point about in-laws and legalities. If not for marriage, Terri Schiavo would still be on a feeding tube, with a liquified brain.

.: SpANG! :.
“To a rational mind, nothing is inexplicable. Only unexplained.”
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:51PM
kyupol at 6:02PM, May 5, 2006
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marriage is overrated. It is just used as a tool by corporations in order to make more profit.

The media portrays marriage as the “live happily ever after” kind of deal. Well in fact, it isnt. Ive seen married men who either end up ass raped in divorce court or just sticking it out because of religion or any other reason… but in reality, they are unhappy as shit. She is just banging some ex-con out there while parasiting him for money.

and besides… I havent seen ANYONE who is marriage material. Sure you might be hot as a playboy model, but your arrogance and everything else about you sux shit. Go find some dumbass guy out there who would do anything for vagina. Even if it means alot of inconveniences and risk of death.

I wont.

If I want pussy, I have $100 to spare once in awhile or I can use my superior imagination skills… tho if I was a rich dude, I'll have $500 to spare everyday since it is only pocket change… lol… :D




No pussy Ive seen so far is worth risking my life, blood, and soul for. :D Been there, done that. And if only I can go back in time, I would go back and punch the old me so hard… a knockout that is… for being really really stupid.


:smt097
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marine at 6:23PM, May 5, 2006
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Love does not exist.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:51PM
Ronson at 7:13PM, May 5, 2006
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Having been married for more than a decade, I can tell you that I value it greatly. But I think it has more to do with Martha than the institution itself.

Marriage is like an official promise to eachother. Promises of fidelity, trust and to try to keep eachother happy. You don't need a church or a government paper to declare that. You don't even need to call it a marriage.

But many people think marriage is about sex, or domination, governmental benefits or security. It's none of those things. A marriage - or a long-term relationship - is entered into it because both people think they'll be happier together than apart.

I feel horrible that we live in a nation that doesn't allow the legal benefits of marriage to any two consenting adults, because the implicit unfairness drives me up a wall.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:10PM
Aurora Moon at 9:03PM, May 5, 2006
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ah, people talked about having the legal rights to your own loved one in case of something….

but outside of marriage you can also do that. you can have your loved one make all sorts of legal wills and rights, in case something happens to her/him. wills and such that overrides the inlaws or something preventing you from visiting him/her in the hosptial or something to that effect.

so one doesn't even have to be married to be able to do that.

but yeah. it does suck that not ANYONE can get married if they want to.

and besides…. there's always the possiblity that I could be an lesbain later on in life, not having discovered it yet or something, so then I'd be denied that right too.
I'm on hitatus while I redo one of my webcomics. Be sure to check it out when I'n done! :)
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:09AM
Arconna at 8:12AM, May 6, 2006
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Marriage has always been a religious institution and religious people will see it first and foremost that way. The reason that the government helps with the issue of marriage with tax breaks etc is because it is vital to the foundation of civilization. People need to know where everyone comes from and who is responsible for what children and so on. Furthermore, the two parent mother father household is something that every child needs to have for the best possible socialization. Now I know everyone is going to say BUT BUT BUT and tick off something like single parents are successful and gay parents are successful and yes there are OBVIOUSLY exceptions to the rule, but the fact of the matter is that just because it works SOMETIMES with a single parent or whatever, doesn't make it the BEST way. Like you can go somewhere 200 miles away in a car, and yes you can get there with a bike, but that doesn't make it nearly as good or as easy as with a car.

But as far as the gay thing goes on the religious basis. It is simply this: whether you like it or not, the great majority of religious people think being gay is a sin. And then you would say DON'T FORCE YOUR RELIGION ON ME blah blah blah, well they don't see it that way, they see it as you forcing your values on them by taking their institution and making it endorse you personal values. Therefore, if gays were permitted to marry then it would be seen as an endorsement of sin. Like for the Christian faith, they believe marriage is symbolic of the church marrying Christ, and because God created man and woman, and Christ is obviously male, then the church is represented as female. Hate it or whatever but that is the way they see it. It is really an argument of language and terminology. There are valid non-religious reasons for being against same-sex marriage which I don't want to get into right this second but I am just explaining why some people value marriage and want it only for heterosexuals. And then you could always say that evangelical Christians have something like a 50% divorce rate and all, but just because some people can't drive doesn't mean we should make it a free for all. Flame on.

Marriage first and foremost was never a religious concept. Christians did not create it, in fact the basic concept of what marriage is has existed since caveman times. So, religious people have no cause to get uppity about gays getting married, because it is not a religious concept. As much as Christian's want us all to think it is, human history can show that the concept has existed before organized religion had any hold on society. I actually wrote a paper that addressed this and did research on cultures that had a concept of marriage. Surprisingly, the idea of getting ‘married’ or ‘devoting officially’ to one person seems to be more of an ‘evolved’ human behavior–and no I don't mean ‘evolved’ as in evolution of species, I just mean it as in something that changes through time.
Not to mention, you have to consider cultures that were NEVER initially influenced by Christianity and yet have polygamy as a marriage engine. There are other forms of marriage as well. Native Americans had a concept of marriage and Christians weren't able to have any influence on them until the British ‘invasions’ or ‘landings’ if you will. And in addition, gay marriages have existed and been accepted for thousands upon thousands of years before the Christian/Catholic church eventually got sick of it and wrote it out.
Another thing, if you actually pay attention to the Bible and how it has been translated and changed through edition after edition, you'll come to realize that Christians invented the word homosexual into the Bible. The actual concept of what a ‘homosexual’ is didn't come into existence until right around the early 19th century, and it doesn't actually appear in the Bible until the late 19th. Most of the Bible's people read today are based on the King James Version, which in itself is a retranslation. The original Hebrew and Greek texts don't have ‘homosexual’ in it because they had no word for it, and did not need a word because it was not something that had to be defined at the time.

Anywho.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:01AM
ozoneocean at 8:56AM, May 6, 2006
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Marriage is first and foremost a government institution, as it has always been. ^_^
Religions used to handle government matters, before all that moved to monarchies… And then we replaced monarchies with all these other systems.
All religion does is preserve the old lovely traditions associated with it.
Arconna is right.

Remember that Christianity is only one single religion out of a vast multiplicity throughout history who've claimed to have some authority of these matters…
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:23PM
Arconna at 9:25AM, May 6, 2006
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Well, and speaking of government institutions, here in the states you have two ways of getting married: by the church, or by a judge. You don't have to be a Christian or Buddhist or any religion to get married. Atheist Bob can get married by a judge, and still be considered “married” and get the same benefits, whatever those might be.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:01AM
blackaby at 9:43AM, May 6, 2006
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I'd tell you what I thought about marriage, but I'm still waiting on my bloody divorce.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:23AM
anystar at 11:43AM, May 6, 2006
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Arconna
Well, and speaking of government institutions, here in the states you have two ways of getting married: by the church, or by a judge. You don't have to be a Christian or Buddhist or any religion to get married. Atheist Bob can get married by a judge, and still be considered “married” and get the same benefits, whatever those might be.

actually o_o; even if you get married in a church, you still have to have your marriage lisence - which comes from the judge. so even if your church wedding is held on friday, you have to have your judge certificate thing on thursday XD you're technically already married BEFORE you go to church. church weddings are an added formality.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 10:54AM
Aurora Moon at 1:52PM, May 6, 2006
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Arconna
Marriage first and foremost was never a religious concept. Christians did not create it, in fact the basic concept of what marriage is has existed since caveman times. So, religious people have no cause to get uppity about gays getting married, because it is not a religious concept. As much as Christian's want us all to think it is, human history can show that the concept has existed before organized religion had any hold on society. I actually wrote a paper that addressed this and did research on cultures that had a concept of marriage. Surprisingly, the idea of getting ‘married’ or ‘devoting officially’ to one person seems to be more of an ‘evolved’ human behavior–and no I don't mean ‘evolved’ as in evolution of species, I just mean it as in something that changes through time.
Not to mention, you have to consider cultures that were NEVER initially influenced by Christianity and yet have polygamy as a marriage engine. There are other forms of marriage as well. Native Americans had a concept of marriage and Christians weren't able to have any influence on them until the British ‘invasions’ or ‘landings’ if you will. And in addition, gay marriages have existed and been accepted for thousands upon thousands of years before the Christian/Catholic church eventually got sick of it and wrote it out.
Another thing, if you actually pay attention to the Bible and how it has been translated and changed through edition after edition, you'll come to realize that Christians invented the word homosexual into the Bible. The actual concept of what a ‘homosexual’ is didn't come into existence until right around the early 19th century, and it doesn't actually appear in the Bible until the late 19th. Most of the Bible's people read today are based on the King James Version, which in itself is a retranslation. The original Hebrew and Greek texts don't have ‘homosexual’ in it because they had no word for it, and did not need a word because it was not something that had to be defined at the time.

Anywho.

I was about to type out all that when I saw somebody else beat me to it. thank you, for saving me the time.

so I'll just say this: Ditto to what Arconna said.

I'll also say this:

Yes, two parents certainly makes things easier… but that doesn't always make it the best way.

There's a lot of couples out there that makes crap parents despite the fact that they're a mother and a father working together for the children. they're used to doing things the “easy” way, and delegating some of the responsiblity over to the other parent whenever that one parent doesn't want anything to do with the situation.

for example, I've seen this situation a lot of times before… when two parents are in an store.. and thier child starts throwing an fit about wanting an toy or something. the mother looks to the father, and goes “well, do something? He's YOUR child.” and the father is like “He's YOUR child too. YOU do something about it.”

both parents work in perfect harmony until the child starts acting in an less than desirable way, which then they start passing the buck on each other. so what does that tell the children? that it's better to have somebody else around to help you out so that if something goes wrong, you can pass the buck and not have any responsblity in it at all!

of course I'm not saying all couples with kids are like this, but it's something that I have noticed in a lot of couples.

and by the way, unmarried couples can have a lot of responsblity and have a lot of legal rights to a child. so getting married for the children doesn't automically make one more responsible.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 11:09AM
kyupol at 2:54PM, May 6, 2006
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As far as religion is concerned, it has contributed to making marriages last longer.

Because of “fear of the Lord”… or “love” of the lord, couples united in a religious institution tend to do everything they can in order to solve relationship problems. My parents, who are devout catholics are an example of that. I've seen dad slap mom, and mom throw things at dad. In fact, there's a crack in the wall made by dad's fist.

But in the end, they solve their relationship disputes. And they've been together for already 25 years… and hopefully they will last until the day one of them dies… which is more likely my dad will go first cuz men have a shorter lifespan than women.




Unfortunately in this times, society lives as if God did not exist. Christian values and teachings of Faith, Hope, and Love seem to be nullified in today's climate. A person who devoutly lives his//her christian faith will be… sad to say… get themselves killed or badly hurt in this day and age.

Where is faith when there is cheating left and right?

Where is hope in the relationship if there is divorce so easy. Heck. I've seen ads in the bus stop that offer $300 divorce!!!

Eventually… the love that brought the couple together will disintegrate. Just like what I heard a priest one time, say in his sermon… that for hatred to be victorious, destroy faith, hope, and love.

Divorce laws, promiscuity, child support, etc… all these laws that make marriage so difficult… destroys faith, hope, and love.

Modern society therefore, is a place where the wicked survive and thrive. Players, whores, corruption, broken families, abortion, superficiality, etc…

Yeah. Step into… the realm of the wicked… just like what that hardcore metal song says… And then blame the fuckin music eh? Blame the metal, blame the rap, blame the emo. Yeah right. What inspires this music in the first place?


Yeah. This is… the realm of the wicked that we live in today. Society fucks itself over, yet fails to identify the source(s) of the problem. The media turns a blind eye and a deaf ear to the causes of the problem… due to fear of being “politically incorrect”.


:smt097

<*end of rant*>
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last edited on July 14, 2011 1:24PM
Aurora Moon at 8:33PM, May 6, 2006
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saying people are more wicked nowdays because of a lack of belief in things is very wrong.

one can easily be a very devot calthotic or christain and still be a big sinner. for example, I've heard of a branch of calthotics that doesn't believe in dicorvce, and having to marry if said girl falls pregant or something.
so what happens if an devot calthotic man becomes drunk and does it with an equally drunk devot calthotic woman?
the woman ends up being pregant by an guy she hardly knows, but of course they'll get married right away to atone for thier mistakes and sins. despite the fact that they don't even know each other that well, and therefore doesn't really love each other at all.

and marriage, as I hear, is supposed to be where two people actually love each other and is there for each other.

they do this just so they can do the “Right thing”.. and then years later you get one of the most disfuctional families ever… parents living in oppsite ends of the house, with a child they may not even love or want. they fight constantly about things on a regular basis, blaming each other for one mistake that one drunken night.

I've heard of that happening, but not that often.
to me, that sort of thing just seems so wrong.

what if “doing the right thing” is actually the wrong thing?

Humans aren't perfect. they make all sorts of mistakes and do stupid things…
like for instance, marrying somebody because you thought it was the “right thing to do” in certain situations, only to realize that you didn't really love that person as you thought you did or would.

example: that certain girlfriend you got pregant even though you only knew her for an year.. you though you loved her very much and that you were very serious about her… but it turns out that while she was an great girlfriend, she wasn't just compliable with you when it came to marriage stuff. espeically when you never lived with her until you got married to her, so you didn't know about all the annoying things she did at home.
it was different when she was your girlfriend, and when the two of you didn't live together for long periods. living together with her as your wife 24/7, you start to notice all the little things about her you never noticed before–such as her loudly smacking her lips in her sleep, the way she keeps on moving about in her sleep whenever she's having one of her crazy dreams, pushing you out of bed in the process. and the way she keeps on taking your razors to shave herself all over, even her public hair, and leaving you with dull razors when you needed to shave!
in fact, think of every single Annoying thing you can ever think of that you would only ever find out about an person when you're living in close quarters with that person for a very long time.

the same kind of annoying things that drives you up the wall and things that you just can't live with.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 11:09AM
Nitro at 9:35PM, May 21, 2006
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Sure, you can grow old together, live a happy life, not be married, and get a long great.

And sure, society has made it cliche.

Personally, i think the only one who hit any nail on the head about the state of marriage in general, was Michael.

Marriage is good as a symbolic adjunct to the union of two people. I don't think there's any problem with marriage at all, the trouble is that these days it's become devalued: people are just way to off-hand and immature about the concept of marriage. People are more focused on their own individuality, they're more selfish about things. For many people marriage is just something you can throw away, take or leave. If it means anything to them at all, it’s just the image, or the idea of the ceremony, or some childish fantasy.

But those people who stay together years and year and never get married, those are the ones who really do value it. They value the principal, and actual formal marriage to them has so much meaning and baggage that they don't ever want to go through with it. They’re some of the people who not only really show what marriage is all about, the idea of “marriage” often means more to them than most married couples!

I really agree with the part about individuality and being too immature. I know I am immature with a lot of things, but on the whole, I feel my generation is just off in fucking la-la land with a lot of things in general. And argument/discussion for another time.

::ahem::

Anyway.

I don't know. I'm sure I could save TONS of money by not getting married, and by switching to Geico, but fact is, I am old fashioned. I am a romantic guy. Also, I really dig the idea of basis of what marriage is, or whatever idea the government or whoever fuckin' pushes it on us, is. And yea, I know I can still be a romantic guy and not be married, and be happy, and be great. But then again, I could still be a romantic and not believe in marriage, and also, I could not get married and be equally miserable. It's simply all subjective to the persons involved in the relationship.

Point is, to me, the romantic at heart, just really digs the idea of marriage. And maybe the actual act of marriage constitutes something to me, and an actual show of a promise to someone. Promises in the form of words can be 100% false. Actions show a lot more. Granted, I DO know that you can take this and flip it on it's head that you can promise you won't cheat on someone, and then continue to do it. But again, I am looking at it at a romantic angle. And maybe I have faith in the person I am willing to make that commitment to. And maybe I want an equal commitment. And no one can ever tell me anything different. Each relationship has compromises, and yet each has their own line to draw regarding certain issues. Some are simple others are difficult. This could be a difficult issue for some people. And I'm not saying it's right either way, but it's again, something subjective to the people involved. My thought is though, you don't want marriage,don't get into a serious relationship thinking you can make them change their mind, and of course, VICE VERSA!

And you know, I guess I can dig if you don't want to get married. I mean there are tons of people who do (like homosexuals) and can't by law, or those who just do (albeit prolly for the wrong reasons.). I just know, I really wanna share my life with someone and to me, the marriage is sorta the beginning. It's nice. And I can share it with family and friends and more importantly… my wife.

But that's just me.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:17PM
ccs1989 at 6:48PM, June 11, 2006
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No pussy Ive seen so far is worth risking my life, blood, and soul for. :D Been there, done that. And if only I can go back in time, I would go back and punch the old me so hard… a knockout that is… for being really really stupid.


:smt097

It's called love for personality…or content of character. You're talking about something COMPLETELY different. And it's kind of sad…
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