Debate and Discussion

Do you think the TSA is encroaching upon our rights?
Aurora Moon at 11:04AM, Dec. 4, 2010
(offline)
posts: 2,630
joined: 1-7-2006
http://gizmodo.com/5703878/the-most-stupid-tsa-action-to-date-defies-belief



I personally feel that the TSA have gone too far… they're basically legalizing sexual assault and child molestation.

There's been reports of teenage girls and boys feeling extremely violated and going though the same signs that one would have if they had been sexually molested by some pervert.

So in order to ramp up our security, we're willing to traumatize people, espeically young kids??

hell, many a grown women have been known and seen walking out of the strip search rooms crying because they felt violated.

Here is a quote from one of our founding fathers that makes just as much sense now as it did over 250 years ago. “They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety” – Benjamin Franklin.
I'm on hitatus while I redo one of my webcomics. Be sure to check it out when I'n done! :)
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:11AM
KomradeDave at 11:30AM, Dec. 4, 2010
(online)
posts: 589
joined: 9-26-2006
The current security measures seem to be like some bad joke. Ever notice that when they catch somebody, it's after they've already boarded?

It's only my opinion, but it seems like this is all similar to the shopkeep's trick of the unplugged security camera. The appearance of heightened security measures keeps people feel more secure, while at the same time discourages all but the most dedicated terrorists. Have they gone too far this time? Probably. Will people do anything but bitch about it? Unlikely.
Handshakes and mustaches are the only ways to know how much you can truly trust a man.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:20PM
Aurora Moon at 11:36AM, Dec. 4, 2010
(offline)
posts: 2,630
joined: 1-7-2006
http://www.nowpublic.com/world/mandy-simon-tsa-pats-down-screaming-child-video-2728309.html

yet other evidence of the TSA tramazing kids… one guy was strip-searching a 3-year-old. the inappropriate touching made her scream her head off.

It's only my opinion, but it seems like this is all similar to the shopkeep's trick of the unplugged security camera. The appearance of heightened security measures keeps people feel more secure, while at the same time discourages all but the most dedicated terrorists. Have they gone too far this time? Probably. Will people do anything but bitch about it? Unlikely.

you're probably right, but I think there will be a few people out there trying to do something about it.

after all, pat-downs and strip searches didn't use to be so invasive. women officers could only pat down other women, men could only do the same to other men, etc.

and there was no inappropriate touching at all… hands stayed outside the underwear, and didn't go roaming inside the underwear.

and guess what? it was still pretty effective. There's no need for all this added bullshit.
I'm on hitatus while I redo one of my webcomics. Be sure to check it out when I'n done! :)
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:11AM
ozoneocean at 12:17PM, Dec. 4, 2010
(online)
posts: 24,963
joined: 1-2-2004
4am… bed time…

I have to comment on this with a descenting viewpoint.
For a start the “molestation” stuff is completely wrong- tell that to someone who really has been molested. The guards there don't want to be touching your naughty bits any more than you want them touched. Saying that it's molestation is pure hyperbole, may as well lock up all doctors everywhere because they have to touch people's naughty bits as part of their job too. Evil molesters!

In many cases (not all obviously) the people complaining most about this are the ones who've refused scans, so they sort of get exactly what they deserve.

And finally the other side of this is something I feel quite strongly about:
The lives of ALL ordinary citizens in Iraq and Afghanistan have been turned to pure crap; houses they built up over generations with hard earned savings destroyed… no reliable electricity, intermittent water supplies and food suplies, schools destroyed, hospitals destroyed, all their money gone because their banks closed due to the conflicts, no work anymore for anyone in the family, armed gangs of extremists and criminals roaming the streets, soldiers forcibly searching their homes, blowing up whole families just to kill 2 or 3 suspects, running over people in the road… And more, all to make some American people “feel safe”.

So if a few people are slightly inconvenienced at an airport then they really should take the time out to consider how lightly they're getting off with this. The checks are a direct result of the “war on Terror”, the same thing that has led to the situations in Iraq and Afghanistan. Be thankful that the price we have to pay to go through US airports is a lot less than that of the people of those two countries.

That's my piece.

Yes, it's ineffective, just for show and over the top, but consider other victims of this anti terror campaign and realise just how fantastic and easy you've really got it.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:36PM
Aurora Moon at 12:39PM, Dec. 4, 2010
(offline)
posts: 2,630
joined: 1-7-2006
Uh…. doctors still have nurses and other people backing them up for supervision in case the patient ever feels uncomfortable at one point. The doctors are required to take a step back and let the same-sex nurses or what have you do it instead if the patient is too uncomfortable with the doctor's method.

In that scenario, it was all about the patient's comfort zone being catered to while they were working on finding out what was wrong with the patient.

also, the patient usually consents to it and is old enough to be able to handle it.

there aren't many cases where an pediatrician for instance, had to look at a child's prative bits and touch them like that in order to see if there was something wrong with them..

an TSA strip search and pat-down on the other hand…. they're not worrying about what makes you feel comfortable or not. They do things that crosses over your comfort zone into the realm where you might start to feel violated.

so it's NOT THE SAME THING AT ALL.

There's been evidence of TSA officers putting their fingers and hands directly on the pritive bits themselves… the fingers even sliding into the vagina of a 10-year-old girl! How is that not child molestation????

of course the officials claim this isn't sexual abuse, they're just making sure those alleged suspects didn't hide anything dangerous up there.

In the past, a pat-down was usually no big deal…. it was just a typical frisk-down while the suspects were fully clothed, etc.

Putting your fingers into a 10-year-old girl's vagina to check for concealed dangerous objects on the other hand… is a pretty fucking big deal.
and from what I've heard, that one 10-year-old girl wasn't the only underage kid to have gotten such a….through inspection.

the sad thing about your line of logic is that you assume that child molestation has to be much worse than that for it to count as child molestation.

Um, a lot of pedophiles often have sexually molested a child while they were fully clothed, or still had their underwear on. there doesn't have to be intercourse and whatever else in order for a kid to become traumatized. inappropriate touching is all it takes.
I'm on hitatus while I redo one of my webcomics. Be sure to check it out when I'n done! :)
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:11AM
ozoneocean at 1:06PM, Dec. 4, 2010
(online)
posts: 24,963
joined: 1-2-2004
Two things:

1: That story is just as likely to be made up or even a rumour that just goes along with the hysterical tone of the complaints about these procedures so it has managed to gain traction.

2. Fingering anyone is not part of these search procedures anyway and if that happened then it is a criminal matter for the police and courts to deal with.

In either case that isn't about search procedures.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:37PM
Genejoke at 1:23PM, Dec. 4, 2010
(online)
posts: 3,062
joined: 4-9-2010
It's a fine line for sure. I'm not sure how I feel about it. Most cases probably are just idiots bitching over very little, kind of like the family guy episode where Peter Griffin is “raped” by the doctor.

last edited on July 14, 2011 12:33PM
Aurora Moon at 1:23PM, Dec. 4, 2010
(offline)
posts: 2,630
joined: 1-7-2006
but that's the thing. search preducdes that allows you to put your hand down somebody else's underwear makes it too easy for the whole thing to turn into one giant “He said, she said” thing.

He claims that he wasn't fingering a 10-year-old girl, just doing standard stuff.

She claims she felt his fingers go inside her.

and since his latex-covered hand was shoved down her underwear, and the undergarment was covering up the view as it was, nobody knows for sure which one is lying and which one is correct.

the whole thing is just so messy and unnecessary.

Yes, there's a lot of hysteria over this and it very well could had been made up… but don't you agree that there also could be the possibility for abusers to get away with that because they claimed they were only following legal procedures?

it kinda feels like olden times where rape victims would be accused of lying and so on forth while the higher ups who did this was allowed to get away with it because it was perfectly “legal” for them to get away with such things.

on top of this trouble, no two airports are exactly alike…. the procedures for each airport in different parts of the country is often very different depending on how high-risk they feel the area is, etc.

So basically there's no united front for the TSA, and they all claim this or that is the correct procedure to follow. so it can be very upsetting and confusing for the people who need to board a plane.

so a person completely used to the L.A airports could end up being very unsettled by witnessing what a New York Airport is like, and feel that the new york one is breaking regulations when they're actually not.

So basically the TSA's in each area needs to be a little more uniform and such in how they do things, and how to deal with any possible abuse going on.

then maybe there wouldn't be such hysteria going on.

edit:

Also, I feel that they need to find a better way to handle the kids.

A ten-year-old isn't going to view airport security the same way an adult would. In fact I doubt they would understand fully why all this is needed in the first place. All they would know is that Terrorists fucked up everything for everyone, and now Everyone is paranoid about others, even wee little kiddies.

And, they probably wouldn't even understand why strip searches are needed. So a 10 year old who has been given the sex talk, the talk about what to do if somebody touches them inappropriately, etc….

well, that same 10-year-old isn't going to view it as something purely non-sexual. there are many who already has gotten their periods and such at this age, and thus are starting to hit puberty.
So naturally they're going to see this as an sexual attack on them.

A 3 year old is definitely going to freak out if somebody touches them like that because they don't even understand the word “terrorist” and if they did they probably wouldn't even be able to use it correctly in a sentence… they'd probably think a terrorist was like a bully or something.

So all they will remember is that somebody touched them inappropriately, and they'll be traumatized for a long time.

So this is why I don't think this should be done with kids, period!

only adults who have consented to this may go though it.
I'm on hitatus while I redo one of my webcomics. Be sure to check it out when I'n done! :)
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:11AM
ozoneocean at 3:47AM, Dec. 5, 2010
(online)
posts: 24,963
joined: 1-2-2004
@Genejoke- good point!

@Aurora- From what I understand:
- Officers are prohibited from doing searches on a person of the opposite sex.
- Searches do not involve stripping of putting hands in underwear or inside of clothing. All external.
- Searches are only done on people who refuse scans or when an airport doesn't have the scanners yet.

When I come over again for the San Diego Comic Con in July, if there are these procedures in place I am %100 getting a scan when i get to LAX. What kind of moron would submit to a search out of choice?
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:37PM
kyupol at 8:12AM, Dec. 5, 2010
(online)
posts: 3,712
joined: 1-12-2006
I've had it.

You are NOT gonna grope me. Um… I'd just wanna have the right to choose who will grope me. I'd pick a hot TSA chick then I get to have a nurse or mistress bdsm fetish fulfilled!!! lol!



But in all seriousness, this has to stop. Boycott air travel whenever you can. Let the hotels, travel agencies, transport companies associated with travel, etc… feel the pressure in their pocketbook.

Loss of finances means they would be the ones to take action against this government TYRANNY.

Btw, here's an article dump I did for you to see:
http://kyupol.livejournal.com/83633.html

Let the articles speak for themselves. I'm tired of ranting about the TSA…
NOW UPDATING!!!
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:27PM
Genejoke at 8:44AM, Dec. 5, 2010
(online)
posts: 3,062
joined: 4-9-2010
Someone
Also, I feel that they need to find a better way to handle the kids.

They shouldn't be “handling” the kids at all, isn't that what this thread is about. :)
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:33PM
SarahDot at 12:38PM, Dec. 5, 2010
(offline)
posts: 14
joined: 11-29-2010
I have always thought the TSA's actions were ridiculous. Short of giving body-cavity searches to every single passenger on every single plane, you can't guarantee that you can stop a lone nutjob that wants to take down a plane. It is very telling that we haven't heard any reports of the TSA actually finding any bombs through these searches.

The fact is that you can not secure everything all the time. Every day I take the New York City Subway. It is a prime target for would-be terrorists, but far too many people ride the subway to inspect more than like 1 in 10 or 100 thousand on a given day. I simply have to trust that most people don't want to kill me. I have never been subjected to a pat-down and never went through an X-ray backscatter imager. I have never even been through so much as a metal detector. Yet, after using the system nearly every day for the last 4.5 years, I am still alive.

“They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” - Ben Franklin

Sarah
http://www.drunkduck.com/Worst_Best_Comic_Ever/
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:22PM
Aurora Moon at 4:32PM, Dec. 5, 2010
(offline)
posts: 2,630
joined: 1-7-2006
ozoneocean
@Genejoke- good point!

@Aurora- From what I understand:
- Officers are prohibited from doing searches on a person of the opposite sex.
- Searches do not involve stripping of putting hands in underwear or inside of clothing. All external.
- Searches are only done on people who refuse scans or when an airport doesn't have the scanners yet.

When I come over again for the San Diego Comic Con in July, if there are these procedures in place I am %100 getting a scan when i get to LAX. What kind of moron would submit to a search out of choice?

that's mainly true only in LA and a few other places.

However, in places like New York, they take it to the extremes, and the searches aren't external at all… they actually will put hands under clothes and inside your underwear.

Which is why there's such a uproar over this.

as I said before– no two airport security is the same… they have different regulations, depending on how “high risk” they feel a certain place is.

and well, after 9/11 New york Airports hasn't never been the same ever since.

And yes, most of the time officers usually can only search a person of the same gender, not the opposite sex.

However there are times when they're understaffed so they have no choice but to have a officer frisk all people, regardless of gender. sometimes that is when the trouble starts.

“ What kind of moron would submit to a search out of choice?”
You'd be surprised how many actually make that choice. some feel that they don't want a nude picture scan going on, and they somehow feel that getting frisked would be better as seeing nobody would see their “nude body” on a scan.

never mind that you barely see anything at all… the scans are like barbie doll nude and very blurry at times.
I'm on hitatus while I redo one of my webcomics. Be sure to check it out when I'n done! :)
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:11AM
ozoneocean at 7:50PM, Dec. 5, 2010
(online)
posts: 24,963
joined: 1-2-2004
Aurora Moon
and well, after 9/11 New york Airports hasn't never been the same ever since.
My mum flew out of New York only a few weeks ago and said the security was no different from LAX, and from what she described it wasn't much different to what I had at LAX and San Diego airport in July… So yeah, seems to be a lot of hysteria here.

I'm pretty sure the same sex searching is non-negotiable. I understand that regulations can be different but isn't TSA a federal initiative? Then they should all be the same, shouldn't they?

It seems to me that most of the problems people have are with the nuddie scanners. People are so scared and embarrassed about their bodies that this issue blows out and out, and out.
And the crying about it still strikes me as pathetic in relation to what other countries have had to pay for the “war on Terror”.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:37PM
Aurora Moon at 8:20PM, Dec. 5, 2010
(offline)
posts: 2,630
joined: 1-7-2006
I've flown on a lot of airplanes in my lifetime….

and I can tell you that there have been times when I was frisked by a male officer while my mom stood by nearby.

hell, my grandma even got frisked by a male officer too at one point.

no inappropriate touching though… thank god.

this was because I was in an airport that didn't have much in the way of staff. and this was before they brought in the nude body scanners.

and keep in mind, everyone's experiences are different. Some get the harsh treatment while others slide by relatively unscathed by the experience.

So I have no doubt that in many places there was people who really did get the “body cavity search” treatment for no good reason other than being a possible jerk-ass to the officers.

I tend to see this situation as being the two sides of the same coin… there isn't any party here that is in the right or wrong. Just a whole lot of gray shades here.

if that makes sense…
I'm on hitatus while I redo one of my webcomics. Be sure to check it out when I'n done! :)
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:11AM
Hawk at 9:12PM, Dec. 5, 2010
(online)
posts: 2,760
joined: 1-2-2006
Despite the debate over the topic, nobody likes these pat-downs. Not the people receiving them, not the people administering them, and not the people talking about them…. well, maybe the terrorists like them. I can imagine them getting a huge kick out of how awkward and inconvenient our flights are becoming.

But on another note, I don't necessarily agree with Ozone's idea of individual people deserving to be punished because their leaders started an unpopular war. In an ideal world we'd just send all our money over to Iraq with a note saying “Sorry we elected the bozos,” but that's not going to happen. And the karmic results of us undergoing irritating precautions doesn't benefit Afghanistan or Iraq one bit (and last I checked, Australia sent forces over there too).

This is something that doesn't get solved by protesting or making up stories about molested little girls. It gets solved by our wallets. We as consumers decide whether or not the excessive security is worth it and consider trains, buses, and cars as an option. Sure, sometimes you have to fly. But not all the time. And if the pat downs and revealing photos put off enough people, the airlines will feel it. They're hurting already.

Until it happens to me, I'm not sure what to think. It sounds awful. I'll probably go with the x-ray photos. But until there's documented abuse of the system, all we can really rally against is rumors and the potential problems.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:47PM
ozoneocean at 9:27PM, Dec. 5, 2010
(online)
posts: 24,963
joined: 1-2-2004
Aurora Moon
and I can tell you that there have been times when I was frisked by a male officer while my mom stood by nearby.
Those searches are different Aurora. As are cavity searches and all the rest. They're not related to this issue except in terms of happening at an airport.
Hawk
But on another note, I don't necessarily agree with Ozone's idea of individual people deserving to be punished because their leaders started an unpopular war.
Sorry Hawk, that is NOT my point at all.

My point is that we all have to do our bit. These issues are global and far reaching in their implications and repercussions and nobody gets out of it without some contribution, that's just how it is. Some families lose children, mothers brothers, daughters, fathers who are over there fighting as soldiers, many of the families that actually live in the countries have lost everything. If all WE have to go through as part of this “war on Terror” is enhanced searches, I really don't see the issue. Getting off fricken lightly!

-This isn't some sort of “karmic” mumbo-jumbo, these things are DIRECTLY related. Why do you think they do the searches? Coincidence? They're just being mean?. How can anyone not see them as being part of exactly the same thing?

-That's one thing I did notice in the US, my mum also noticed it, and American ex-pat travellers notice as well when they look back: an insularity to many people in the US, a feeling that the issues outside of the country don't really touch those at home, that the homeland is somehow separate and inviolate.
That can be a dangerous and fooling delusion.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:37PM
Hawk at 9:48PM, Dec. 5, 2010
(online)
posts: 2,760
joined: 1-2-2006
You're right, I'd never suggest there wasn't a connection between increased TSA security and the war in the Middle-East, but I think connection is disjointed enough that the TSA's methods deserve questioning. True, the September 11th attacks were allowed by loose security on airplanes. Will these measures stop a future war? I think that's worth debating. But they won't fix the past war.

Your phrasing just made it sound like we deserve whatever is dealt to us until Iraq and Afghanistan are back on their feet. I'm sure that's not what you meant, it just seemed like it for a bit. We need to find out if these TSA measures are right even if there's a mess in Iraq and we're to blame.

Don't get me wrong… I haven't taken a side. And I like that you're playing counter-point, Ozone. You do that well and this thread really needed one. But just so I understand your point correctly, are you trying to say that the increased TSA security is a necessary measure to ensure that what happened in Iraq and Afghanistan doesn't happen again?
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:47PM
Aurora Moon at 10:05PM, Dec. 5, 2010
(offline)
posts: 2,630
joined: 1-7-2006
I didn't make up the stories about molested little girls. I'm only telling you people what I heard. it could be very well just a rumor– but it's also a plausible one.

patdowns of little kids do exist currently. the patdowns also involves touching groin areas,although the kid are usually fully clothed.

http://www.wbtv.com/Global/story.asp?S=13526724

http://www.examiner.com/libertarian-in-national/tsa-telling-children-pat-down-is-a-game-sends-a-wrong-message

http://www.examiner.com/progressive-in-modesto/video-tsa-harrasing-child#parsely

http://healthland.time.com/2010/11/23/how-to-get-your-kid-through-the-tsa-pat-down-with-little-trauma/

http://specialchildren.about.com/b/2010/11/17/how-would-you-explain-a-tsa-pat-down-to-your-child.htm

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2010/12/airport-patdowns-grooming-children-sex-predators-abuse-expert/

read all of them. does most of those sound like hysteria? Or do they sound like rational adults who are worried about the implications about allowing those “speical patdowns” to be used on children?

As seeing those patdowns aren't just simple frisking– they actually will feel up your crotch area and stuff.

and for those who don't believe that an patdown could lead to sexual assault… well take a look at those.

http://pncminnesota.wordpress.com/2010/11/08/rape-survivor-devasted-by-tsa-enhanced-pat-down/


that link also contains the statements of people who were patted down by a member of the opposite sex. Those people also have witnesses backing them up.

http://www.ourlittlechatterboxes.com/2010/11/tsa-sexual-assault.html

the words of a woman who were sexually assaulted
She patted my left arm, my right arm, my upper back and my lower back. She then said, “I need to reach in and feel along the inside of your waistband.”

She felt along my waistline, moved behind me, then proceeded to feel both of my buttocks. She reached from behind in the middle of my buttocks towards my vagina area.

She did not tell me that she was going to touch my buttocks, or reach forward to my vagina area.

She then moved in front of my and touched the top and underneath portions of both of my breasts.

She did not tell me that she was going to touch my breasts.

She then felt around my waist. She then moved to the bottoms of my legs.

She then felt my inner thighs and my vagina area, touching both of my labia.

She did not tell me that she was going to touch my vagina area or my labia.

She then told me that I could put my shoes on and I asked if I could pick up the baby, she replied Yes.

She then moved back to my belongings to finish scanning them with the paper discs for explosives. When she finished she said I was free to go.

I stood there holding my baby in shock. I did not move for almost a minute.

I stood there, an American citizen, a mom traveling with a baby with special needs formula, sexually assaulted by a government official. I began shaking and felt completely violated, abused and assaulted by the TSA agent. I shook for several hours, and woke up the next day shaking.

Here is why I was sexually assaulted. She never told me the new body search policy. She never told me that she was going to touch my private parts. She never told me when or where she was going to touch me. She did not inform me that a private screening was available. She did not inform me of my rights that were a part of these new enhanced patdown procedures.

When I booked my ticket, I was given no information that the TSA had changed their wand and unintrusive patdown procedures to “enhanced” patdown procedures that involved the touching of all parts of your body, including breasts and vagina on women and testicles and penis on men. I was not informed by any signs on the front side of security about the new procedures. I had not seen any media coverage about the issue, so I had no idea that this was a new government sanctioned policy.



Another important piece in this story, the Dayton airport does not have the new body scanners. I was not given any other search options. It was enhanced patdown, or nothing. (And I would have opted for the body scanner, if I were going to be subject to a sexual assault.)


I asked to speak to a supervisor immediately. I had a very unpleasant conversation with him that lasted 20 minutes. I moved to the back of the security area, made a few phone calls, including to my lawyer. He did some quick research, and learned that I had indeed been sexually assaulted because she did not follow the SOP (standard operating procedure) for the new search.


During our first conversation, the TSA acting manager of the shift told me that the TSA agent who sexually assaulted me was supposed to inform me about the new search procedure and tell me when and where she was going to touch me. He also apologized on behalf of himself and on behalf of the agent who sexually assaulted me. I was not allowed to speak to the agent who sexually assaulted me, nor did the acting manager provide me with her name. (I did not have the presence of mind to look at her nameplate, as I was in shock.)

does that sound like a hysterical person to you?
I'm on hitatus while I redo one of my webcomics. Be sure to check it out when I'n done! :)
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:11AM
Hawk at 11:08PM, Dec. 5, 2010
(online)
posts: 2,760
joined: 1-2-2006
Aurora Moon
I didn't make up the stories about molested little girls. I'm only telling you people what I heard. it could be very well just a rumor– but it's also a plausible one.

Don't worry, Aurora. I don't think anyone's saying that you made up the molested ten-year-old story. It's just that to me it sounds like a story somebody down the line made up, and we would have heard about it in the news.

Regarding the rest of what you said, I'm pretty sure nobody disagrees with you that the pat-downs are embarrassing, extremely uncomfortable, and hold the potential to be abused. The more debatable point is whether or not the new measures really will make us safer, or if they exceed the necessary precautions for terrorism-free flight.

It gets tough to decide that based on what's said so far.
SarahDot
It is very telling that we haven't heard any reports of the TSA actually finding any bombs through these searches.
The problem with this reasoning is that you could be right, and maybe the new safety measures aren't any more effective than previous checks. But it could also mean these new body photos and pat-downs have actually dissuaded terrorists from smuggling bombs and weapons. It could also mean nobody has even tried to smuggle a bomb in the last while, regardless of what safety measures are in place.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:47PM
Aurora Moon at 1:11AM, Dec. 6, 2010
(offline)
posts: 2,630
joined: 1-7-2006
I have to wonder what kind of terrorist would be stupid enough to try the same exact thing as last time.

plus some people who got caught was ALREADY on the plane….meaning they got past the security anyway.

like that crotch bomber who failed to blow up a plane but instead blew up his own crotch. lucky for the people on that plane that he was so inpet at terrorism! And it was actually a passager who stopped him instead of the TSA. oh yeah, great job TSA.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/national/scary_new_technology_in_fiend_panty_5W0xxJdDQRdkzLfF22lFRN

so I'm of the opinion that this procedure does NOTHING but make it look like they're doing something about terrorism, when they really are not.
I'm on hitatus while I redo one of my webcomics. Be sure to check it out when I'n done! :)
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:11AM
SarahDot at 6:41PM, Dec. 6, 2010
(offline)
posts: 14
joined: 11-29-2010
Hawk
The problem with this reasoning is that you could be right, and maybe the new safety measures aren't any more effective than previous checks. But it could also mean these new body photos and pat-downs have actually dissuaded terrorists from smuggling bombs and weapons. It could also mean nobody has even tried to smuggle a bomb in the last while, regardless of what safety measures are in place.

This thinking cuts both ways. Let me illustrate this with a problem I had with Xanax last year.

I was having some anxiety problems. I'm a bit of a hypochondriac, and as I was approaching my transition from male to female, the stress made my fear of illness go off the charts. In particular, a fear of blood clots. My shrink gave me Xanax to help.

Things went OK for a few days, but soon I started having cramping pains in my arms. Blood clots have a cramping feel to them I was told by my endocrinologist.

I do know that I am a hypochondriac, and that keeps me from running to the doctor every time I think that I'm about to die, so I went to no one, and suffered in silence. The pain got worse and started spreading to other parts of my body. In my mind's eye I could see blood clots forming in every part of my body, but I was afraid to go to the doctor. You see, hormone replacement therapy can cause dangerous blood clots, and if the doctor found blood clots, I might have to stop taking estrogen. I started going crazy with fear, literally, fear of dying, fear of losing the chance to finally come out of hiding.

Now here is the really important bit. I thought to myself, All this is happening, even on Xanax. How much worse would it be IF I STOPPED?

Meanwhile, my logic was as follows: If I have blood clots, I'll have to stop taking estrogen. If I have to stop taking estrogen, I can't be a woman. If I can't be a woman, I have no chance for happiness. If I have no chance for happiness, I might as well die.

I started planning for the moment that the doctor took my hormones away from me. I wanted to kill myself painlessly but absolutely. I didn't want to become horribly injured then put on suicide watch so I couldn't finish the job.

I did have an appointment with my psychiatrist in the meantime. He told me I probably didn't have blood clots, and I broke down with relief. He did not suggest an adjustment in my medicine. Stay the course. What would happen if I stopped?

That Friday, I felt worse than ever. I started to have a noticeable limp from the cramping. By chance I had an appointment to get my swine flu shot, and I didn't get to work till late. I usually take my medicine at work, so I didn't take my Xanax when I usually would. When I got to work, physically I felt bad, but mentally I felt better than I had in a couple of weeks. I decided I could skip the Xanax that day.

Sometime between 11 and 12 AM, all the cramping turned off like a light switch. All that was left was a vague pain from the stress the cramping had put on my muscles as they finally relaxed. I became more lucid, and that's when I realized how close I came to ending my own life.

Here is the moral. When you have a fear, and you have a solution you have faith in, and that solution only causes more fear, is more dangerous, and causes more problems, you can end up in a dangerous feedback loop that often can only be broken by chance or by reaching its horrible conclusion. We fear terrorists, but the fact is that terrorists can hurt us if they want to. No matter how hard we try, we can't stop everyone.

We have two choices as a society:

1) We can panic and give away our freedoms for a false sense of security, and when that sense of security is inevitably shown to be false, we can panic and give more freedoms away for more false security. Wash. Rinse. Repeat.

2) We can take reasonable steps, keep our freedoms, and learn to cope with the small risk that would be there whether we gave away our freedoms or not. It is just like riding the Subway.

Perhaps this country is finally willing to try option 2 for a change. I hope so.

Sarah
http://www.drunkduck.com/Worst_Best_Comic_Ever/


last edited on July 14, 2011 3:22PM
KnaveMurdok at 4:26AM, Dec. 8, 2010
(offline)
posts: 49
joined: 10-3-2006
If you are a SEX OFFENDER, there is NO BETTER JOB TO HAVE than as a TSA ASS-GRABBER.

I am VERY FORTUNATE, in that I DON'T HAVE ANYWHERE TO GO, so this will probably NEVER AFFECT ME.

REGARDLESS, it is in CLEAR VIOLATION of a citizens right to PRIVACY, as it is outlined in the BILL OF RIGHTS.

THE LOOPHOLE however is that we are ALLOWING IT TO HAPPEN to OURSELVES.

EVERYONE IS TOO BUSY to WORRY about something TRIVIAL like HUMAN RIGHTS, we have PLACES TO GO! ASIDE FROM THAT, we are a people who are TOO DAZZLED by TECHNOLOGY to say NO to it, even if it's a highly sophisticated machine designed to FUCK YOU IN THE ASS (although an actual application for this machine could be found in an entirely different market.)

SINCE Americans are such PUSHOVERS, we ALLOW THIS TO OCCUR. We have ISOLATED INCIDENTS of LONE DISSENTERS, who DESPITE MASSIVE MEDIA ATTENTION, are considered to be only BLEEPS in the SYSTEM, which allows transit authority to believe that these machines ARE A GOOD THING, and that NO ONE REALLY HAS A PROBLEM WITH THEM.

IF we had it in ourselves to RISE AS ONE NATION against ACTS AS VILE AS THESE, this would not be a problem, and we would not be having this discussion.

THIS IS HOWEVER NOT THE CASE!
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:19PM
imshard at 4:59PM, Dec. 8, 2010
(online)
posts: 2,961
joined: 7-26-2007
Ozone? Glad to know you're so familiar with American majority views and ignorance. So nice to know there are stereotypes for all of us. Sometimes I wonder if you troll on 4chan, lol.

Hawk? I agree, though the Americans already spoke with their wallets. Then the Fed kept bailing out the airlines anyway, and pretended it had nothing to do with how horrible flying experiences have become. :(

Obvious objections to being groped imaged or violated at the mercy of a guy who may or may not have had a criminal background check all put aside, to me its a matter of rights and principles.

Airports can do whatever they want. They tell you quite plainly that your rights as a citizen stopped at the front door. International territory folks, that is why it has duty free stores. This is why I avoid flying now. Because I enjoy my 4th amendment rights against baseless search and seizure. I take 5th and its promise of Due Process. What about Habeas Corpus? These are rights I now have to give up until I reach the protections of whatever laws exist at my destination. I refuse to give these rights up and as a result I don't go places where I'm forced to like airports.

People know what they are walking into when they go there. The USA is supposed to be a democratic republic. Will of the People. Right now the people think this whole TSA thing is a load of crap. Why are we still talking about this? Once the public discourse is over the leaders will make their call as to whether or not to keep it up. Given our recent track record though our leaders have been doing very poorly at representing us locally or abroad.

For an issue grounded in reducing the chance of crime at airports surprisingly little consideration has been given to the risk of crime by officials.
If its all about risks why are we focusing so hard on terrorism but not corruption and abuse? This has all culminated in a situation where the chance of impropriety is ridiculously high with no accountability. I mean really, given whats happened, which would you find more likely? Which of these threats occur more frequently?

The answer isn't terrorists. The answer is slime bags and predators hiding behind a mask of authority just waiting for a chance. This is only an issue because people are more likely to encounter abuse from the TSA than the terrorists they're not really even guarding us from. We all know this is true whether we admit it or not.
Don't be a stick in the mud traditionalist! Support global warming!

Tech Support: The Comic!! Updates Somedays!!
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:59PM
mlai at 11:56PM, Dec. 9, 2010
(online)
posts: 3,035
joined: 12-28-2006
Well, sounds like TSA should just do things like Israel. It's only common sense. Basically, Israel profiles passengers like there's no tomorrow.

You're Middle Eastern descent? You're Muslim? You recently traveled in xyz countries? You have relatives, where? You get the searches. The blonde-haired blue-eyed mother of 3 children? Oh, she and her toddlers can go on in.

Racist? Discriminatory? Yeah, so what? It works, and it makes perfect sense. Americans are only stuck in this mess precisely because they want to be politically correct, and search the white women with children, search the WW2 veterans with stoma bags, alongside the young muslim men.

If I'm a young Muslim man, and I see TSA conducting a search on a white suburban family, I'd just tell them out loud "Let them go through; just search me. You know the only person on this line who really needs to be searched is me; don't search them first on my account. Just search me, get it over with, so we can all board faster."

FIGHT current chapter: Filling In The Gaps
FIGHT_2 current chapter: Light Years of Gold
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:07PM
Aurora Moon at 2:25AM, Dec. 10, 2010
(offline)
posts: 2,630
joined: 1-7-2006
You might think that viewpoint of yours sounds reasonable…. but the sad reality is that it's not only Muslims or people of middle-eastern descent who are terrorists.

And what's more, some Muslims actually are of white descent because they converted to that religion. or, they're not Muslims but they still commit terrorist acts for other reasons.

so it's not really so much about political correctness.

don't believe me that white people could be terrorists? Well read the following:

http://news.scotsman.com/latestnews/AlQaeda39s-white-army-of-terror.3667425.jp

http://phoenixwoman.wordpress.com/2010/02/19/its-not-terrorism-if-a-white-guy-does-it/

http://trueslant.com/allisonkilkenny/2010/05/19/white-domestic-terrorists-slip-off-medias-radar/


http://www.thoughtcrimes.org/s9/index.php?/archives/3380-Are-white-terrorists,-terrorists.html


http://gawker.com/5325822/how-we-arrest-southern-white-terrorists-now

http://open.salon.com/blog/austincynic/2010/02/23/why_do_conservatives_make_excuses_for_white_terrorists

http://uhurunews.com/story?resource_name=white-terrorists-attack-africans-in-texas


http://tabacco.blog-city.com/western_media_bias_why_are_white_terrorist_acts_ignored_alja.htm

http://www.trinicenter.com/oops/271220032.html

http://iraqwar.mirror-world.ru/article/104841


I could go on and on with those links…but I won't.

The point is, it's not being politically correct if it's actually true that White people can be terrorists too…. which have actually happened in the past.

also, if you were really an young Muslim boy who actually practiced the Muslim way of non-violence like many innocent Muslims do… you actually wouldn't think the way you do. If they choose to single you out completely you'd probably feel offended that they think that you're one of those nutcases.

Just like a Christain would feel offended that people think that she/he was a nutcase like the abortion bombers, the westbro church, and so on forth.
I'm on hitatus while I redo one of my webcomics. Be sure to check it out when I'n done! :)
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:11AM
Genejoke at 4:24AM, Dec. 10, 2010
(online)
posts: 3,062
joined: 4-9-2010
Don't be silly, only muslims can be terrorists, the TV said so.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:33PM
mlai at 5:05PM, Dec. 10, 2010
(online)
posts: 3,035
joined: 12-28-2006
Hey, I know my post was fodder for liberal comebacks about the Timothy McVeighs and Unabombers of goodl ol' Americana. Raise the exceptions all you want; fact is the terrorist majority threatening America now are the disenfranchised Muslims of domestic or foreign descent.

I have no objections about maintaining the TSA political correctness. Hell I couldn't care less about being frisked into my underwear. But if Americans want PC, then stop whining about the babies and war veterans getting molested/humiliated by the big bad airport security.

FIGHT current chapter: Filling In The Gaps
FIGHT_2 current chapter: Light Years of Gold
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:07PM
imshard at 5:37PM, Dec. 10, 2010
(online)
posts: 2,961
joined: 7-26-2007
mlai
Hey, I know my post was fodder for liberal comebacks about the Timothy McVeighs and Unabombers of goodl ol' Americana. Raise the exceptions all you want; fact is the terrorist majority threatening America now are the disenfranchised Muslims of domestic or foreign descent.

I have no objections about maintaining the TSA political correctness. Hell I couldn't care less about being frisked into my underwear. But if Americans want PC, then stop whining about the babies and war veterans getting molested/humiliated by the big bad airport security.

Remember there is a difference between intelligent profiling and racial profiling. Racial profiling on its own is stupid and ineffective. Yes that includes singling out muslimns and mid-easterners. A comprehensive and balanced schema can be very effective though.

Profiling itself isn't a function of religion ethnicity or race. Those are just possible variables. Its a function of picking people out of a crowd that present a more obvious risk because they meet certain criteria associated with known threats. Like picking single males in their 20s with short hair and one way tickets, vs. the 80 year old geriatrics with colostomy bags taking a vacation to Hawaii.

Frankly its a matter of applying common sense to picking targets for screening. Rather than “random” sampling system that has a very low probability of success. Since there are no standards for the “random” selection, it actually increases chances for racism and abuse as TSA agents can pick based on their personal flavor of bigotry.
Don't be a stick in the mud traditionalist! Support global warming!

Tech Support: The Comic!! Updates Somedays!!
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:59PM
Aurora Moon at 6:28PM, Dec. 10, 2010
(offline)
posts: 2,630
joined: 1-7-2006
Well said imshard, couldn't had said it better myself.

It's not about political correctness, it;s not about racial profiling.

it's actually about using your common sense when doing your job as airport security.

like those morons who tried to make a 3-year-old boy who had an genetic disease walk without his leg braces because they thought the braces might had been dangerous to airport security.

That's not just cruel, it's downright moronic.

check the leg braces if you must, but you could also check out their medical record to verify what they're saying is true–that this 3-year-old cannot walk on his own.
I'm on hitatus while I redo one of my webcomics. Be sure to check it out when I'n done! :)
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:11AM

Forgot Password
©2011 WOWIO, Inc. All Rights Reserved