Debate and Discussion

Ethanol ; eco-fuel or recipe for Mass Starvation
Mister Mxyzptlk at 12:48PM, Dec. 11, 2007
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bobhhh
Actually he says in the interview considering the current technology that it can yield 20 times what corn ethanol can, unless he lying in the interview.

I've read intervies with him where he laments not having the “proper” funding for his projects. Now maybe he's preaching a differant message depending on whose chior he's in front of but everything I've seen on switchgrass says twenty years and craploads of money away from efficent production.

bobhhh
10 tons of SG … which yields 100 gallons of ethanol

20,000 pounds of mass makes (roughly) 700 pounds of product? That's more efficient than corn ethanol?

http://healthandenergy.com/ethanol.htm

An acre of U.S. corn yields about 7,110 pounds of corn for processing into 328 gallons of ethanol.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 2:04PM
Mister Mxyzptlk at 12:51PM, Dec. 11, 2007
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horseboy
It's my understanding that Brazilian ethanol is made out of sugar cane.

Yes it is. The Brazilian govt wants to turn several thousand acres of rain forest into sugar cane fields because the farmers don't want to sell cane to the ethanol factories, they are getting better prices from the export market. The government doesnt want to subsidize the ethanol economy much more so the better choice for them is deforestation.

Oh to be a green these days, the angst the pathos….
My soul was removed to make room for all this sarcasm.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:04PM
Mister Mxyzptlk at 1:09PM, Dec. 11, 2007
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http://www.harvestcleanenergy.org/enews/enews_0505/enews_0505_Cellulosic_Ethanol.htm

OVERCOMING THE RECALCITRANCE OF BIOMASS

Reducing the cost and improving the efficiency of separating and converting cellulosic materials into fermentable sugars is one of the keys to a viable industry. “On the technology side, we need a major push on overcoming the recalcitrance of biomass,” continues Greene, referring to the difficulty in breaking down complex cellulosic biomass structures. “This is the greatest difficulty in converting biomass into fuel.” R&D efforts are focusing on the development of cost-effective biochemical hydrolysis and pretreatment processes. Technological advances promise substantially lower processing costs in these fields compared to acid hydrolysis. “In the enzyme camp, we have only scratched the surface of the potential of biotechnology to contribute to this area,” adds Reade Dechton of Energy Futures Coalition. “We are at the very beginning of dramatic cost improvements.”

The Department of Energy (DOE) Biofuels program has identified the high cost of cellulose enzymes as the key barrier to economic production of cellulosic ethanol. Two enzyme producers, Genencor International and Novozymes Biotech, have received research funding from DOE to engineer significant cost reductions and efficiency improvements in cellulose enzymes. In October of 2004, Genencor announced a 30-fold reduction in the cost of enzymes to a range of $.10-$.20 per gallon of ethanol. To achieve the savings, Genencor developed a mixture of genetically modified enzymes that act synergistically to convert cellulose into glucose. Novozymes Biotech has also progressed in reducing enzyme costs from $5.00 to $.30 per gallon of ethanol. In April of 2004, Novozymes was granted a one year extension and awarded an additional $2.3 million to further reduce the cost of enzymes to $.10 per gallon.

Another major thrust of R&D efforts is devoted to improving pretreatment technologies. Pretreatment is required to break apart the structure of biomass to allow for the efficient and effective hydrolysis of cellulosic sugars. “Seventy percent of total mass is composed of structural carbohydrates, either five or six carbon sugars,” explains Bruce Dale, a chemical engineering professor at Michigan State University. “Getting higher yields of these sugars efficiently without degrading the materials is the focus of pretreatment.”

Pretreatment technologies utilize dilute acid, steam explosion, ammonia fiber explosion (AMFE), organic solvents or other processes to disrupt the hemicellulose/lignin sheath that surrounds the cellulose in plant material. Each technology has advantages and disadvantages in terms of costs, yields, material degradation, downstream processing and generation of process wastes.

One of the most promising pretreatment technologies, Ammonia Fiber Explosion (AMFE), employs liquid ammonia under moderate heat and pressure to separate biomass components. “The goal is to get the plant material to provide you with a lot of sugar without a lot of extra cost,” says Dale who is working on optimizing the process.

CONSOLIDATED BIOPROCESSING

Many experts believe consolidated bioprocessing (CBP) shows the greatest potential for reducing conversion costs. CBP employs recombinant DNA technology to alter the DNA of a microbe by joining it with genetic material from one or more different organisms. In the case of cellulosic ethanol production, the goal is to genetically engineer microbes with the traits necessary for one-step processing of cellulosic biomass to ethanol.

Dartmouth engineering professor Lynd is utilizing CBP techniques to produce microbial systems combining both enzymatic hydrolysis and fermentation operations. Lynd's group is working to consolidate cellulose production, cellulose hydrolysis, hexose fermentation and process fermentation into one organism while maintaining sufficiently high yields.
My soul was removed to make room for all this sarcasm.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:04PM
bobhhh at 7:56PM, Dec. 11, 2007
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I love how my source must be wrong and yours is somehow more credible.

Great argument.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 11:29AM
Mister Mxyzptlk at 7:31AM, Dec. 12, 2007
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bobhhh
I love how my source must be wrong and yours is somehow more credible.

That's the fun of Expert Poker.

I see your Scientist and raise you a PhD…

Besides, I was pointing out how the source on corn ethanol, who BTW is down on the idea, shows how it has a greater output than your source claims for his favored crop.
My soul was removed to make room for all this sarcasm.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:04PM
Mister Mxyzptlk at 10:06AM, Dec. 12, 2007
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bobhhh
Yeah well I'll see your argument and raise you one I don't give a fuck what you think anymore.

What's the matter? You don't like having your numbers challenged? You posted a statistic, I found another statistic that made yours look pretty lame. If you don't want people to toss numbers at you then you'd better not toss numbers at them.
My soul was removed to make room for all this sarcasm.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:04PM
Mister Mxyzptlk at 10:36AM, Dec. 12, 2007
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bobhhh
No, I just don't like you.

Well, I just think the world of you. Come on over and give us a big hug!

My soul was removed to make room for all this sarcasm.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:04PM
Hawk at 11:36AM, Dec. 12, 2007
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Okay guys, this is getting pretty of bad. If the fighting doesn't clear up I'm locking the thread.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:46PM
bobhhh at 11:53AM, Dec. 12, 2007
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Hawk
Okay guys, this is getting pretty of bad. If the fighting doesn't clear up I'm locking the thread.


You are correct of course, i retract my last comments.
My name is Bob and I approved this signature.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:29AM

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