Debate and Discussion

FAT people are evil!
subcultured at 8:22AM, May 25, 2007
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http://www.youtube.com/v/svxLdNsxPSw"

WTF! maybe we should put all the fat people on a rocket and launch them to the moon.
there are other factors of people looking obese. “healthy” looking people die everyday. supermodels sniff coke to stay thin, muscular people take steroids which leads to heart attacks and unhealthy diets leads to unhealthy internal organs.

just because you seem healthy on the outside doesn't mean you are healthy on the inside. because what is inside is what counts when it comes to truly bieng healthy. the rest is just superficial health.

J
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:02PM
wyldflowa at 8:45AM, May 25, 2007
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Oh my god, what was that blonde woman smoking? I mean, I'm British but we still get updates on the American Idol competition over here and FFS that Jordin girl is NOT fat. Not even in the slightest! That blonde woman is saying she's got increased cholesteral and risk of diabeties and heart disease… that's rediculous. Jordin would need to be at least three dress sizes bigger to even scrape the “unhealthily obese” mark. She's a beautiful girl with an amazing talent… she doesn't even look like she's got 40 pounds on her to lose to me!

Urgh… while I don't condone people gorging themselves stupid with food I hate even more people being mean to someone for being fat when they absolutely are not!

From what I can tell Jordin has done nothing wrong apart from be infinitely more attractive than that blonde woman in that video.
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:52PM
Phantom Penguin at 9:15AM, May 25, 2007
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I look healthy. But I drink my own body wieght in booze every weekend.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:42PM
Alexis at 9:54AM, May 25, 2007
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If someone on TV was talking bout how I was unhealthy and a bad role model for little girls because I was so fat when I was 17 years old I would have been unconsolable. That poor girl is 17 years old! And she aint that big! I love how on one hand we blast stars for being too small, and the other chastise them if they are too big. It's an impossible amout of preassure to put on a girl who has been trown into being famous over the space of only about three months. The problems that blonde woman was talking about, heart disease and diabetes are real, and obesity in america is a real concern, but I think she unfairly targetted Jordin because she is very visible right now. She really isn't very big. Not to mention that Rubin Stuttard won american idol and it didn't seem to have an effect on childhood obesity. And he really is dangerously large.
last edited on July 14, 2011 10:49AM
kingofsnake at 9:58AM, May 25, 2007
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An over weight american idol IS the LAST thing we need.

The second last thing we need is a second holocaust
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:16PM
Cthulhu at 12:55PM, May 25, 2007
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I think that looks might play a role in “voting”. Personally, I think “Idol” is rigged. The good people lose! And the “pretty good” people win. It adds drama. Anyway, all of the “Idol” winners have been skinny, even though many “fat” people have been good. Like Sundance. I thought for sure he would win.

But the winner from-I think-two years ago was pretty ugly
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:55AM
lothar at 3:28PM, May 25, 2007
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she looks fat to me ! most americans ARE fat !! it's all relative though.
btw EVERYBODY on fox is crazy !
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:45PM
Black_Kitty at 7:14PM, May 25, 2007
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I like how she said that whether she's obese or not is a discussion between her and her doctor but then proceeded to indirectly talk about how she's fat and unhealthy.

I remember reading an article a bit over a week ago about how there's a such thing as “inside fat.” Basically fat lining the organs. So even if a person may appear large, if they exercise regularly they can actually be healthier than a skinny person. A person who is skinny could have fat lining their organs which can lead to health complications.

I don't like how she was suggesting that they're going to make her lose weight because it's a health issue. I think that's entirely too misleading. They probably will make her lose weight but not for health reasons. Rather, they'll make her lose weight because they want to market her in a certain way.

I think enough girls out there already have self-esteem and self-image issues. Promoting healthy eating and exercise is great! Nobody debates that. However I think suggesting that everyone who looks like her is definitely fat contributes to a lot of self-esteem and self-image issues.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:24AM
Phantom Penguin at 7:30PM, May 25, 2007
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I agree.
I've seen plenty of women who were not fat at all, at least in my opinion, but at terrible self-esteem issues and could never be pleased with themselves.
It was kind of disturbing.

But I guess i'm kind of like that. I kill myself at the gym all the time, and don't really eat more then 800 calories a day, and am never pleased with what comes out of it. I'm in shape, not fat, ect. But By no means do I think i'm going to look like Brad Pitt or something.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:42PM
StaceyMontgomery at 6:18AM, May 26, 2007
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I dont know . There's a way people say “there's a health issue” with fat people that sounds different, to me, then when they talk about people who are smoking, or drinking, or bungee jumoing, or mountain climbing, or doing drugs, or not buckling their seat belts, or having unprotected sex, or eating at Mcdonalds…

Maybe I'm wrong, but I do think i hear a difference in tone and emphasis that I do not care for.

(At least, out in the world - I am certainly not claiming to be able to hear tone and emphasis on a message board - that trick never, never works!)
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:55PM
Peter Melvin at 7:11AM, May 26, 2007
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The last thing we in fact need is ANY kind of “Idol” show. What a load of pap! Go read a comic instead, go play some basketball, go get drunk with your friends, do ANYTHING other than watch these mind numbing car-crash television shows.

last edited on July 14, 2011 2:42PM
Aussie_kid at 8:02AM, May 26, 2007
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Well, let's take a look at me. I've been skinny almost all my life (For the first two years, I was a chubby bubby) but I've had a lot of medical problems. Without more fat or muscle, my nerves are incredibly sensitive (I can tell when it drops one degree) which is really bad in the heat and cold. Also, I get ill quite easily.

Those of you wondering, I'm 5'10 and about 109 pound, which is not good
Insanity Complex: We may not be insane, but we like to think we are
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:11AM
dueeast at 8:23AM, May 26, 2007
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Uh-oh, now you done hit on one of my hotspots! I despise discrimination against fat people, it leads to so much heartache and pain. Encouraging health is one thing but ranking on people for their appearance is on a par with racism and it never leads to anything positive. People commit suicide over such pressure, I've seen it. It also leads to anorexia and bulimia, unhealthy dieting and wrecked health from yo-yo dieting.

I will not burden you with the deluge of text I could rain down about this subject. Instead, I'd rather entertain you. For those of you who have the time and inclination, check out my podcast site on the topic. It's called PODWOM (Podcast Without Measure). It's in talk radio format but it's not of one political persuasion or the other, it's just on all things related to size/weight.

PODWOM
http://www.podwom.com
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:17PM
Hawk at 8:45AM, May 26, 2007
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What the… didn't they have an even chubbier guy on American Idol before?

Whatever.

This just showcases how superficial and ridiculous the American Idol show is. And I think that blonde lady ought to be ashamed of herself for publicly scrutinizing that girl's weight like that.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:46PM
ozoneocean at 9:58AM, May 26, 2007
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Ok, I couldn't be bothered watching it all the way through because these are basically three morons on a moronic “news” show talking about a moronic “entertainment” show, but I'll be devil's advocate here because everyone else is taking the same side:

People are too fat these days. Come on, being big and wobbly isn't “natural”, its what happens when you eat too much and don't exercise enough. It's not evil either, but it is a symptom of a lazy, overconsumtive, and decadent society. 50 years ago people didn't look like they do today, even as little as 30 years ago if you look at photos and films of ordinary people you'll see a lot less who're large or chubby. This is an exploding phenomenon in wealthy Western countries and it's only getting worse. The more people accept it as “normal” the worse it gets.

But then so what if people are fatter then they were 20, 30, or 50 years ago? Things change. They're enjoying themselves, eating is one of life's great pleasures. If life expectancy drops because of weight, it increases because of advances in medicine… All in all there doesn't seem to be any great harm unless you think about greed and overconsumption in rich Western countries VS malnutrition and starvation elsewhere and the energy and resources that have to be consumed to provide for our Lush lifestyles.

Don't hate me. Someone had to take the other side, :)
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:27PM
Black_Kitty at 10:56AM, May 26, 2007
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Sorry Alster93, I deleted your post because there are tighter rules in Debate and Discussion. I know you find this whole thing LMAO funny but you're going to have to contribute a bit more than that. :S

People are too fat these days. Come on, being big and wobbly isn't “natural”, its what happens when you eat too much and don't exercise enough. It's not evil either, but it is a symptom of a lazy, overconsumtive, and decadent society. 50 years ago people didn't look like they do today, even as little as 30 years ago if you look at photos and films of ordinary people you'll see a lot less who're large or chubby. This is an exploding phenomenon in wealthy Western countries and it's only getting worse. The more people accept it as “normal” the worse it gets.

I think while it is a valid argument that accepting obesity will possibly lead to viewing it as “normal”, I also don't think it's something that will happen anytime soon. I'm not horribly obese but even I have self-image problems and the media, both consciously and unconsciously, project an often unrealistic image of what is “normal.” And what's normal and beautiful in the media are often skinny and tall people.

I think too often “skinny” becomes associated with “good health.” But for some people, that's not the case since their body simply isn't built for that.

And I hate you Ozone! Hate hate hate! :D
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:24AM
Phantom Penguin at 11:30AM, May 26, 2007
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Skinny isn't always healthy. I mean I know plenty of girls that do nothing but make themselves vomit and say they are doing it for the better.
It pretty damn disgusting(not the vomit, the idea)
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:42PM
subcultured at 11:32AM, May 26, 2007
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skinny people die first in famines or when you are lost in an isolated place…especially those that get gastric bypass surgery

-fat people get to enjoy tasty greasy food, while skinny people eat staler diets.
-the best tasting foods are those programmed in our DNA to be good for us back in the evolution of man, so we can tell if food A which might contian protien, sugar, fat for longer survival. just like how food tastes better cooked than raw because in the past humans used to get sick out of raw microbe infested foods.

-i say if people want to enjoy themselves, let them…they prolly know that those foods are bad if eaten constantly. but i would prefer tasting life and ending it at an earlier age than living to be a 100 and never really experience the spices of life.

like people who wait until they are old and retired to travel doesn't make sense to me. after age 25 your senses start to decrease and when your are retired you won't be able to experience the full range of sensual experience that you might have experience 50 years ago.

also most people have a gentic predisposition already as well as basic bone structure like larger hip bones or rib cage…we can't all be a skinny blond wench like in that video.







J
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:02PM
ozoneocean at 12:43PM, May 26, 2007
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:P

I'd like it if you guys would consider the other side of the argument too instead of ganging up on me. I only put that side of it because without it this thread is basically just a general rag on what the skinny woman says, with no extra info added, just personal rants…

You've missed the facet that most people simply looked markedly different in the 1950's USA to what most people in the USA look like today- this points to it not being a “natural” occurrence, but one of conspicuous overconsumption. ;)
And you've also missed the point that this trend is part of a larger one in Western countries of general overconsumption of food, energy and all other resources. Meanwhile the environment suffers from our selfishness and the world economy is vastly distorted.

One could also argue that many of the arguments in support of the idea of overconsumption put forth here stem from support for the concept of personal selfishness. And the “skinny” people who exercise to stay “thin” are as much a part of the problem as anyone else since they over consume like all the rest but just try to hide the fact by wasting all the energy and resources they've consumed and built up on useless exercise or throwing it away through surgery. In fact, they're probably worse.

-As for “health”, underweight people will die sooner and are not as hardy as overweight people. This should be common knowledge! It's much easier to be underweight and die than it is to be overweight and dead, as you can see in numerous African countries where they don't get a tenth of the resources we greedily swallow and then vomit back up.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:27PM
Phantom Penguin at 1:11PM, May 26, 2007
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Please correct me if I am wrong here double O, But did you say the people who consume, but then ‘waste’ the energy by working out are worse then the people who do nothing at all?

And I think I know what your getting at about the people being a lot bigger then 30 or 40 years ago. Thats because most people have a lot less movement or work, say on a farm or in a factory then they did in years passed, plus it seems companys keep finding new awesome tasting food that is just terrible for every part of you.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:42PM
wyldflowa at 1:48PM, May 26, 2007
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subcultured
-fat people get to enjoy tasty greasy food, while skinny people eat staler diets.
No, fat people get to gorge themselves of tasty greasy food while slimmer people realise that sort of thing should just be a treat every now and then. Slimmer people also learn to enjoy a larger variety of foods most of the time - We have a TV show over here called “You Are What you Eat” and most of the overweight people on that show have never tasted anything that you can't get off a take-out menu - simple stuff like broccoli, carrots, real tomatoes… tasty stuff! Food does not have to be fried in beef dripping and served with eight spoonfuls of salt in order to be tasty.

A lot of fat people irritate me… I might sound horrible but most of them are fat because they're greedy. I used to have a friend who was VERY overweight and she'd moan about it all the time, about how she couldn't get clothes to fit, how people treated her differently, how her bed was broken… and then she'd go buy a 18" pizza and a huge frozen gateau and devour the lot in what seemed like one gulp swilled down with a big bottle of coke. I mean, come on. I'd say to her that it was unhealthy, I taught her how to cook nice curries and bolognaises, gave her filling pulse foods like rice and pasta, I gave her a pan for christ's sake and still she'd go out and buy that junk every night. Hell I even cooked FOR her sometimes and I wouldn't get a breath of thanks, she'd just wolf it down. If she really wanted to lose weight all she had to do was put a pan on the stove and cook something healthier. Greedy lazy mare.

I don't have contact with her anymore (as you can probably guess) but the way I see it you get one body in this life and you should look after it. I don't mean never eat a nice steak ever again - part of looking after your body is giving it tasty foods once in a while. You can't enjoy a life of total deprivation. Just enjoy food in moderation~

As for people being slimmer in the past… I think it was just easier to stay slim in the past. People would go out more and kids would play in the streets - these days most people are just on their computers or watch TV. Diets have changed dramatically but I think an increase in sedentary recreational activities has more to do with it. :/
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:52PM
dueeast at 2:18PM, May 26, 2007
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I'm sorry, wyldflower, but I must respectfully disagree with you.

Blanket statements about people are wrong. “Most of them are fat because they're greedy.”

Just because you knew someone who ate that way does not mean all people are like that – and what's more, did you wonder why she ate that way? Was she also obsessive compulsive? Was she dealing with a lot of stress? There's always more to the story. And not everyone knows how to cook healthy foods or to necessarily cook at all. Sometimes it's easier to buy pre-made food, even if it isn't healthier.

It's very easy to sit back and judge others about something one does not directly relate to (i.e. - being fat) but judging others is always wrong. Calling them names is not very mature, either, and it doesn't speak well of you. I suggest you try looking at everybody in a more humane light. You'll feel better too.

last edited on July 14, 2011 12:17PM
subcultured at 2:28PM, May 26, 2007
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you don't have to be greedy to be fat…everyone's body is different such as metabolism or food processing.
J
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:02PM
Peter Melvin at 2:38PM, May 26, 2007
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re: You Are What you Eat

If that shrew faced harridan Gillian McKeith came anywhere NEAR me or my faeces I'd drop kick her through a window.
Fair enough the folk she harrasses usually have a pretty awful diet but NO ONE deserves the haruanging she gives them. She is evil incapsualted in a tiny Scottish womans body with a face that you could chisel granite with.

last edited on July 14, 2011 2:42PM
ozoneocean at 2:39PM, May 26, 2007
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Phantom Penguin
Please correct me if I am wrong here double O, But did you say the people who consume, but then ‘waste’ the energy by working out are worse then the people who do nothing at all?
From the point of view of overconsumption, yes. This is because being “fat” is nothing more than a superficial outward sign of the problem,but at least their bodies are storing that energy for later (so to speak), while a person that exercises to remove this excess energy is just throwing it away. It's really quite wasteful.

It's like one person filling their car up to the top with fuel and then filling up extra tanks and loading them on the outside.-even if they never use them, they're always there. The other person fills their tank to the top and then decides they want more but don't have enough room for it so instead they just park the car and run the engine until they've burned enough off to make room for more. lol!
-While a sensible person would only take as much as they need to start with, use it and then return for more.

Now to wyldflowa: You raise an interesting point! I think what's really wrong here is that food in our wealthy developed nations is far too cheap! Prepared meals from fast food restaurants are nothing, snack food is cheap and easy, etc: all high energy foods, all very cheaply produced, all contributing to land degradation, wastage of precious water resources, and needless use of energy in their production. Farmers are paid far too little for what they grow (especially the ones we buy from in 3rd world countries), so much so that traditional farming in many places is simply not feasible and the only way to make it pay is through economies of scale through vast commercial holdings (which of course contributes to, if not causes, the problem). Once upon a time large meals were a treat for the family, as were things like steaks and roast chickens (special items), these days we can buy such things for a lunch snack and not even think about it. -and that's something to think about.

This is consuming energy and resources you have absolutely no need for, you're simply satiating a greed impulse.

As for self esteem and body issues: obviously it's all messed up. Being fat isn't normal and natural, but nor is being toned and muscular. Normal and natural is in between: variations of chubby to muscle to thin. People often cite stars from the past like Marilyn Monroe and Jane Mansfield as examples of chubbier beauty when in fact they weren't fuller figured at all but just pretty normal (although quite nicely curvy) , it's just that today we have the artificial extremes of very big people to people who've deliberately exercised to get slim that we don't really see a lot of “normal” people as our body figure archetypes any longer.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:27PM
wyldflowa at 2:47PM, May 26, 2007
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subcultured
you don't have to be greedy to be fat…everyone's body is different such as metabolism or food processing.
But eating huge amounts of food that's really bad for you doesn't help though does it? Even if you had the most amazing metabolism in the world if you ate as much as some larger people do then you'll still get fat. I think everybody knows at least one person who appears to eat loads and never gets fat (like my uncle) but it's only at meal times he eats like a horse; The rest of the time he doesn't eat at all. Whereas some people are just consuming all the time - they have their meals then sit in front of TV eating cookies or chips, drinking full sugar coke or some sort of alcoholic drink… alcohol is laden with calories! Some fat people who don't actually eat much will drink all those extra calories at the pub instead.

dueeast
And not everyone knows how to cook healthy foods or to necessarily cook at all. Sometimes it's easier to buy pre-made food, even if it isn't healthier.
There is nothing stopping people from learning. Spaghetti sauce and curry are not hard, fry the meat, add the sauce, leave for an hour, stirring every so often, and it's done - and once they're cooked you can put them in containers then heat them up in the microwave when you need them. Much better for you than store-bought microwave meals.
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:52PM
Black_Kitty at 2:52PM, May 26, 2007
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Continuing along the lines of Wyldflowa's point about sedentary activities…

I think the lifestyle and culture that existed 50 years ago is quite different from what it is now. Even the idea of letting your kids roam around the neighbourhood has changed. Having kids run around the neighbourhood, riding bicycles, playing with other neighbourhood kids meant moving around and exercising. Now? It doesn't happen as much partly due to fear. Parents may feel safer having their kids at home and a sedentary activity like video games means they can be quiet while they're cooped up at home.

I also think that the demands that kids face these days are drastically different from the ones kids fifty years ago would have. I suspect that the homework load is larger and there's always a push for pursuing other activities that don't require physical exercise. If parents these days are anything like my parents, they would drop their kids out of soccer and skating in a heartbeat if it compromises math, music, or language classes. Schools also seem to pay more attention to math and English classes as oppose to gym (gym classes are a good place to develop a habit of exercise with kids.)

As a side note, there's more than one way of gaining weight…I suspect I gained a few more pounds during this year not because I ate everything in sight but because I skipped meals. I'll get busy, stay up really late, then get unbelievably hungry in the middle of the night so I would eat. Prior to this year, I stayed within the same 5 pounds range for years.

I stopped doing that now but it wasn't healthy of me. :S
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:24AM
dueeast at 2:54PM, May 26, 2007
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Everyone has the potential to learn but everyone's circumstances are different. Some people have tried to lose weight and been heckled and criticized the whole time or even when they do lose weight, it's never enough for some people. Some people make colossal efforts and when they get burned out, they give up and sometimes do the opposite. It's not healthy and I don't advocate it but I understand it.

My point is it's not anyone's job to be anyone else's Food Police. People make their own choices and reap the rewards or the consequences of their choices. They don't need anyone else judging them. The same information you and I have access to they can access if they seek it out. It should be their choice.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:17PM
ozoneocean at 3:09PM, May 26, 2007
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Personal choice doesn't really come into it. It's only a small factor. We can't all be expected to watch everything we eat all the time, although we can be a bit smarter about only eating what we need. The problem doesn't lie with sedentary activities either; that's only yet another part of it. The more I think on the subject, the more plainly-smack-in-the-face obvious it is: cheap food.

That's so much a part of our runaway commercialist foolishness; we let economies of scale and bizarrely unrealistic forced competitiveness make it cheaper and cheaper and so readily available in the absolute worst forms that do more harm to us and the environment than any other sort: Snack food, processed foods, fast foods.
This is why poorer people in wealthy countries tend to be larger -that's the food they eat most of. And they tend to have more physical work than wealthier people so there's that argument faded…

People are getting sidetracked by the smaller issues of personal appearance and metabolism etc: The are red herrings, fairy lights, fools fancies! As usual something seemingly simple is actually just part of something far, far more complicated. But it's easier for some to focus on the irrelevancies because they're easier to comprehend.

-if I sound cutting at all here it's because I'm just about to go to bed and I'm always like that when I'm tired. It's nothing personal.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:27PM
dueeast at 3:36PM, May 26, 2007
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I understand your perspective, OO. You are correct about the cheap food and economies of scale (you're taking me back to business school basics – stop! :) ) and while we could debate commercialism versus its alternatives until we all go to bed, it doesn't change the reality of the situation: there will always be people who are perceived as fat, whether they are truly “fat” or not. That is perspective. There will always be people who are healthy, whether they are thin, fat or somewhere in-between just like there will always be people who are unhealthy, whether they are thin, fat or somewhere in-between.

The other issues have to be dealt with separately. Yes, governments could regulate the cheap foods to meet certain requirements. That would be just fine with me. Just no personal Big Brother Food Police, thank you.

Unless I misunderstood you (always a possibility), there is nothing irrelevant about reasons why people gain or maintain weight and why it's so hard to lose. It is a legitimate area of some scientific study as to why the body behaves the way it does. Now, if we could just get more studies that aren't paid for by the pharmaceutical companies manufacturing diet pills, we might make some progress.

I personally try to provide as much information as possible about self esteem, general fitness and making healthy food choices and I encourage discussion on the topic. Ultimately, however, it is up to the individual to decide what they do with their lives.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:17PM

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