Debate and Discussion

Ghosts, spirits, all that sorts that stuff...
LIZARD_B1TE at 7:46AM, Jan. 1, 2007
(online)
posts: 3,308
joined: 6-22-2006
People believe in the supernatural because they choose too.
People believe that the supernatural is silly because they choose too.
A person's beliefs, especially with stuff that hasn't been proven or disproven, are difficult to change, so this debate can go on and on. (like that “Is there a God” debate a while back, you know, the one where everyone just repeated themselves over and over again?)
In the end, does it really matter? How much do ghosts affect peoples lives anyway? It's not like Hollywood, with violent spirits all over the place, most ghost sightings have the ghosts just there, not really bothering anyone.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:36PM
lothar at 12:22PM, Jan. 1, 2007
(online)
posts: 1,299
joined: 1-3-2006
yea ! it prolly doesn't effect most peoples' lives . But, wether or not you believe in all that , it will deffinitly effect your after-life ; one way or the other !
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:45PM
mapaghimagsik at 1:30AM, Jan. 2, 2007
(offline)
posts: 711
joined: 9-8-2006
ccs1989
A healthy scepticism that doesn't extend into cynicism is, well, healthy, but so is keeping an open mind. Don't discount something just because it sounds kind of strange, but instead approach the so called truth with caution. Always question.

This sounds nice, but you don't seem to provide any room for proof or anything about the scientific method. In short, it sounds kind of new-agey because it demands that you question everything, but seems to exclude the idea of questioning the idea of questioning everything.

At some point, there are situations where you have to decide and act, and you have to go with the best data you have.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:51PM
Ludus Pragma at 4:09AM, Jan. 2, 2007
(offline)
posts: 33
joined: 11-9-2006
Before I really get into my post I would like to say that I am not out to hurt anyones feelings. I know beleif in this type of thing runs deep and many people honestly feel that they have actually experienced the supernatural. But the truth is that nothing supernatural exists. There is no God, gods, goddesses, devils, demons, spirits, ghosts, goblins, fairies, brownies, big foot, afterline, magic, sorcery, psycic powers, vampires, werewolves, youth restoring cremes or dryads. Sorry.

That being said the real world is a wonderful beautiful place, full of mysteries and experiences that should be met with your eyes open.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:48PM
mapaghimagsik at 8:29AM, Jan. 2, 2007
(offline)
posts: 711
joined: 9-8-2006
Ludus Pragma
Before I really get into my post I would like to say that I am not out to hurt anyones feelings. I know beleif in this type of thing runs deep and many people honestly feel that they have actually experienced the supernatural. But the truth is that nothing supernatural exists. There is no God, gods, goddesses, devils, demons, spirits, ghosts, goblins, fairies, brownies, big foot, afterline, magic, sorcery, psycic powers, vampires, werewolves, youth restoring cremes or dryads. Sorry.

That being said the real world is a wonderful beautiful place, full of mysteries and experiences that should be met with your eyes open.

In all fairness, I cannot make that statement with certainty. But, when it comes to my day to day, its how I operate. Sprites exist though – its a coke product.

You also have to be careful of definition. “Ghosts” exist. They are the shadings that happen on a CRT monitors when the guns get out of line. Brownies exist, they're like pre-girl scouts.

Now most of this is tongue and cheek, but a lot of the terms used are for things that we don't understand. As we understand them, their taxonomy changes.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:51PM
Ludus Pragma at 1:37PM, Jan. 2, 2007
(offline)
posts: 33
joined: 11-9-2006
mapaghimagsik
In all fairness, I cannot make that statement with certainty. But, when it comes to my day to day, its how I operate. Sprites exist though – its a coke product.

You also have to be careful of definition. “Ghosts” exist. They are the shadings that happen on a CRT monitors when the guns get out of line. Brownies exist, they're like pre-girl scouts.

Now most of this is tongue and cheek, but a lot of the terms used are for things that we don't understand. As we understand them, their taxonomy changes.

Ignoring the obvious jokes about things that have the same names as supernatural objects the fact is you can't disprove a negative so there is no test you can do to absolutly prove these things don't exist. Every time you conduct an experiment or test that explains a phenomina some believer will claim speacial circumstances or ignor the results.

But if we start with a default setting of doubt and ask our selves if the world as it is currently understood needs the supernatural to opperate we are left with a definate no.

When we construct our understanding of the world we have to do it out of theories that can be disproven, or tested.

Incidently there are literally millions of dollars of prize money just waiting for ANY ONE who can prove the paranormal in a controled setting(see James Randi's $1 Million Challenge.) So if you believe in the supernatural think of a way, anyway, to prove it exists and you will be set for life. (And I will personally spend my own money to fly to where you are and say I was wrong.)



last edited on July 14, 2011 1:48PM
ccs1989 at 3:10PM, Jan. 2, 2007
(online)
posts: 2,656
joined: 1-2-2006
mapaghimagsik
ccs1989
A healthy scepticism that doesn't extend into cynicism is, well, healthy, but so is keeping an open mind. Don't discount something just because it sounds kind of strange, but instead approach the so called truth with caution. Always question.

This sounds nice, but you don't seem to provide any room for proof or anything about the scientific method. In short, it sounds kind of new-agey because it demands that you question everything, but seems to exclude the idea of questioning the idea of questioning everything.

At some point, there are situations where you have to decide and act, and you have to go with the best data you have.

It's a rough guideline. We're talking about ghosts and spirits here, and about their possible existence. I'm skeptical about these being real, but I'm not going to discount it completely. Of course there will be situations where you have to bite the bullet and take action, especially if all reputable sources deem that course of action appropriate.

The scientific method provides guidelines that allow scientists to prove something to the point that it is very difficult to disprove, but not impossible. Things that have been “proven” by the scientific method do get disproven now and then. If you start from an observation and work through until you have experiments that prove what you're saying then you've got a working theory. A theory is different from a hypothesis because a theory is fairly concrete. It is for this reason that Evolution is a theory, not a hypothesis. We're fairly certain it exists, and it has been observed in bacteria, etc, but if a more plausible theory were developed then that would take over.

After a while the theories become more akin to facts. This does not discount the need for a healthy skepticism and constant questioning, however.
http://ccs1989.deviantart.com

“If one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours.”
-Henry David Thoreau, Walden
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:38AM
LIZARD_B1TE at 2:32PM, Jan. 3, 2007
(online)
posts: 3,308
joined: 6-22-2006
Ludus Pragma
the fact is you can't disprove a negative so there is no test you can do to absolutly prove these things don't exist. Every time you conduct an experiment or test that explains a phenomina some believer will claim speacial circumstances or ignor the results.

Suppose that a scientist were to conduct an experiment that proved the existance of ghosts. Would you call it special circumstance and ignore the results? After all, you are a believer in facts. That argument can apply both ways.

And, I don't mean to sound rude or anything, but you really seemed kind of arrogant when you typed that post about all that stuff not existing. Just, with the certainty you said it with. Humans only use about what? 10% of their brains. Immagine if someone unlocked a bit more… Could that be where “psychic powers” come from? Perhaps, under stress, you're brain releases some sort of wave on a level that we can't understand yet, and leaves an imprint on an object so that if your mind were to die, that imprint would manifest itself in a visible form, or a “ghost”?

The expression, “the possiblities are endless”, isn't that far from the truth.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:36PM
ccs1989 at 3:41PM, Jan. 3, 2007
(online)
posts: 2,656
joined: 1-2-2006
LIZARD_B1TE
Humans only use about what? 10% of their brains. Immagine if someone unlocked a bit more… Could that be where “psychic powers” come from? Perhaps, under stress, you're brain releases some sort of wave on a level that we can't understand yet, and leaves an imprint on an object so that if your mind were to die, that imprint would manifest itself in a visible form, or a “ghost”?

Don't know how accurate this is, but still:
The “Ten Percent” Thing is a Myth

The argument that psychic powers come from the unused majority of the brain is based on the logical fallacy of the argument from ignorance. In this fallacy, lack of proof for a position (or simply lack of information) is used to try to support a particular claim. Even if it were true that the vast majority of the human mind is unused (which it clearly is not), that fact in no way implies that any extra capacity could somehow give people paranormal powers.

Brain imaging research techniques such as PET scans (positron emission tomography) and fMRI (functional magnetic resonance imaging) clearly show that the vast majority of the brain does not lie fallow. Indeed, although certain minor functions may use only a small part of the brain at one time, any sufficiently complex set of activities or thought patterns will indeed use many parts of the brain. Just as people don't use all of their muscle groups at one time, they also don't use all of their brain at once. For any given activity, such as eating, watching television, making love, or reading, you may use a few specific parts of your brain. Over the course of a whole day, however, just about all of the brain is used at one time or another.
http://ccs1989.deviantart.com

“If one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours.”
-Henry David Thoreau, Walden
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:38AM
Ludus Pragma at 4:20PM, Jan. 3, 2007
(offline)
posts: 33
joined: 11-9-2006
LIZARD_B1TE
Suppose that a scientist were to conduct an experiment that proved the existance of ghosts. Would you call it special circumstance and ignore the results? After all, you are a believer in facts. That argument can apply both ways.

If a scientist or anyone else were to conduct a repeatable experiment, or develope a falsifiable theory that proved the existance of ghosts I would believe. That is my point.

Lizard-B1te
Humans only use about what? 10% of their brains. Immagine if someone unlocked a bit more… Could that be where “psychic powers” come from?

The idea that we only use 10-20% of our brains is a common error called the 10% myth. In reality humans use all of their brains if we didn't brain-damage would be an annoyance instead of one of the scariest things that can happen to a person. Check out the above link which is the same one I was going to give.



*Edited because some one beat me to the punch while I was writting.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:48PM
LIZARD_B1TE at 5:12PM, Jan. 3, 2007
(online)
posts: 3,308
joined: 6-22-2006
Well, what do you know. I guess you really do learn something new everyday. :)
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:36PM
mapaghimagsik at 11:24AM, Jan. 5, 2007
(offline)
posts: 711
joined: 9-8-2006
ccs1989
mapaghimagsik
ccs1989
A healthy scepticism that doesn't extend into cynicism is, well, healthy, but so is keeping an open mind. Don't discount something just because it sounds kind of strange, but instead approach the so called truth with caution. Always question.

This sounds nice, but you don't seem to provide any room for proof or anything about the scientific method. In short, it sounds kind of new-agey because it demands that you question everything, but seems to exclude the idea of questioning the idea of questioning everything.

At some point, there are situations where you have to decide and act, and you have to go with the best data you have.

It's a rough guideline. We're talking about ghosts and spirits here, and about their possible existence. I'm skeptical about these being real, but I'm not going to discount it completely. Of course there will be situations where you have to bite the bullet and take action, especially if all reputable sources deem that course of action appropriate.

The scientific method provides guidelines that allow scientists to prove something to the point that it is very difficult to disprove, but not impossible. Things that have been “proven” by the scientific method do get disproven now and then. If you start from an observation and work through until you have experiments that prove what you're saying then you've got a working theory. A theory is different from a hypothesis because a theory is fairly concrete. It is for this reason that Evolution is a theory, not a hypothesis. We're fairly certain it exists, and it has been observed in bacteria, etc, but if a more plausible theory were developed then that would take over.

After a while the theories become more akin to facts. This does not discount the need for a healthy skepticism and constant questioning, however.

I don't disagree one bit, though I think when people (not necessarily you) say “Evolution is just a theory” they tend to ignore that Evolution is a theory with a TON of evidence behind it – much of which discounts any of your more “imaginative” sources for the world.

I can't accept or discount the existence of ghosts, but not because of proof of x, y, or z, but because we haven't got a working definiton here. The souls of my relatives, floating about the earth? Well, that feels pretty darn farfetched and there is *no* proof of that, and every attempted proof has been displayed as a hoax.

But I'm playing with terminology – perhaps ghost is more of an imprint of activity that occurred in life. Just because it sounds more sciency, I'll warm up to it more. I'm sure people have broken this stuff all down, and are attempting to prove this, that, or the other.

I agree there is unexplained phenomena in the world. It just haven't been explained. I'm sure, when we do, it'll have a much more technical name than “Ghost”. Perhaps it will be “Psychic Rerun” or something like that.


Without my morning tea, I might be using more than 10% of my brain, but it sure doesn't feel like it.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:51PM
exalted1 at 9:47AM, Jan. 9, 2007
(offline)
posts: 5
joined: 11-17-2006
I'm glad to see that some other people out there are aware of the 10% myth (bruce lee used 12%, and chuck norris…). It's kind of like that other ‘fact’ floating out there that the soul was scientifically weighed to be something like 22 pounds.
It's true! It happened! Don't question it!

Ghosts should be treated just like extraterrestrials, and cthonics. give us verifiable, testifiable proof, please.

My family is always showing me pictures with blobs and bubbles and fuzzies in them and saying “AIEEE! G-g-g-ghosts!” and i look at them and say “OR! dirt on the lense! flaws in the film, errors in the software, trick of the l-l-l-llllight!”

jumping to the supernatural, when you haven't even considered the natural is just bad, man.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:24PM
MagickLorelai at 9:06PM, Jan. 10, 2007
(offline)
posts: 320
joined: 1-20-2006
Exalted, what about people who do everything they can to explain the situation scientifically, and when they can find no other explaination only THEN deem it to be a “supernatural” occurance? I disagree with the idea of jumping immediately to the conclusion that it was all something supernatural myself, but that doesn't mean that there isn't supernatural stuff.

*shrug* As for extraterrestrials, there may not be out-and-out proof that they exist, but mathematically it's almost impossible to imagine that Earth was the only planet capable of sustaining life, much less the only one to develop intelligent lifeforms. That's sort of a, “Fine, believe what you want to” thing.

last edited on July 14, 2011 1:50PM
Ludus Pragma at 6:17AM, Jan. 11, 2007
(offline)
posts: 33
joined: 11-9-2006
MagickLorelai
Exalted, what about people who do everything they can to explain the situation scientifically, and when they can find no other explaination only THEN deem it to be a “supernatural” occurance?

I'm sure that Exalted is going to have his own response to this but I'm going to slip in and coment first.

As I see it the main problem with calling something supernatural, even after exhausting natural explanations, is that you're basicly saying “I don't konw.” Now don't get me wrong, I think the world would be a much better place if people more freely admitted when they didn't know something but when you say “ghosts did it” you are phrasing “I don't know” as if you do know and false claims of authority can lead to real problems. (For a prime example of this look at faith healers.)

last edited on July 14, 2011 1:48PM
nighthawk41 at 2:24PM, Jan. 23, 2007
(online)
posts: 110
joined: 1-13-2006
Well, I think that there are ghosts, but only in heaven and hell.
Then there is another theory I thought up that you witness your life over again, but from a 3rd person view, as a ghost flying around, and you get to interact with other ghosts and stuff, what happens after you witness your whole life, I don't know.

I have no idea though. Although I like the second theory because there are indeed some moments in life that I would die just to re-live.
http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q258/nighthawk41/BodomBeachTerrorsig.png Edited by Admin.
Please make your sig either 250 x 100 or 468 x 60 pixels. Thankyou.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:16PM
mechanical_lullaby at 4:36AM, Jan. 26, 2007
(online)
posts: 1,905
joined: 1-7-2006
I do, even though I try not to believe in them. Cat-like things have a nasty habit of coming into my room. Not just my cats. Other cats. And there's this one thing that liked to rearrange my bookshelf when it thought I was sleeping. Also looked like a cat. My friend sees this one changing up her bookshelf too.
I'm a pretty ridiculous person, therefore I have pretty ridiculous demons. The thing is, it may not even be a demon. Just a thing. I really think we're just misnaming things. What if they're people too, and want to be treated as such. Keep on going down this road and we'll have the people formerly known as demons picketting outside the whitehouse for zombie/demon rights.

last edited on July 14, 2011 1:56PM
Phantom Penguin at 6:19AM, Jan. 26, 2007
(offline)
posts: 1,075
joined: 1-6-2006
I seen so many weird things appear its not even funny. If they are ghosts or hallucenations caused by extreme uranium exposure i'm not sure.

But right now i don't, because i would be haunted by many angry dead people if they were real.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:42PM
kyupol at 6:38PM, Jan. 28, 2007
(offline)
posts: 3,713
joined: 1-12-2006
I somewhat believe in them.

I've seen one myself. I saw demon-eyes sticking out of the ceiling looking at me. And I heard bombs outside the house like its world war 2 or something. Maybe my old place in Manila was a former battleground during WW2?

And when I went to Intramuros (one of the former garrisons during the spanish occupation… where thousands of people were tortured and killed) in a field trip, I heard chains and moans coming from that dark dark tunnel that used to be a dungeon. But maybe that can just be a stereo playing ghost sounds as ordered by the govt to attract more tourists. I dunno.

And maybe dewendes, diwatas, kapres, batibats, etc… exist (read Agimat Story. Those things arent copyrighted by the author but Filipino mythical creatures.. and can be used in other comics… just like dwarves, drows, elves, goblins, vampires, etc…). When you are walking in the forest and see a mound that is almost perfectly sculpted, its a house of black dewende. An anthill has no distinct shape because ants are not really “smart” enough to calculate the exact precision to shape a house.

And there's this mountain called “Mt. Makiling” where people are known to get lost in the forest if the guardian “diwata” doesnt like you.


anyway, my 2 cents on this issue.
NOW UPDATING!!!
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:25PM
Kristen Gudsnuk at 6:44PM, Feb. 1, 2007
(online)
posts: 1,340
joined: 10-4-2006
when my grandfather died, I had this horrifying dream where he was haunting me and decaying, hovering angrily and no one else could see him but me.
That was probably psychological, though… but it was the closest thing to a “ghost” I've seen. I don't believe in them… most “ghostly photography” consists of lighting and dust particles (or so I've read), and a lot of times thinking that you've seen a dead loved one stems from wishful thinking or a guilty conscience, imo.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:22PM
vgman at 6:34PM, Feb. 3, 2007
(offline)
posts: 2,167
joined: 10-4-2006
I believe in ghosts. And so long as they don’t try to kill me I’m fine with them. I really don’t see any reason why we shouldn’t believe in them. Its not like it hurts us if we do and if they do exist and we run into one we might offended it in any case I’ve herd tons of theories on ghosts one says that when a person dies in a way that creates a huge amount of emotions that those emotions are so strong they leave an imprint of themselves in there last moments. I don’t particularly agree with this one be cause it doesn’t explain how ghosts can move things like chairs and such. In any case I believe that they do exist and it my have something to do with the brain, even if it is only some sort of mirage. After all if you believe in something you can make it true even if its just for yourself though don’t try it cause that’s the same as a mental illness.
RIP TD :cry2:
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:40PM
kyupol at 9:59AM, Feb. 4, 2007
(offline)
posts: 3,713
joined: 1-12-2006


The scientific method isnt infallible though. This doctor I know believes in heaven, hell, afterlife, ghosts, etc… How is that possible for a man of science to believe things like that? 6 years of med school… studying all the parts of the human body… and then combined with over 20 years experience diagnosing and treating patients. He told me that the complete mystery that science cannot solve is the cause of LIFE.

Why is it that when somebody dies, and you try to fix him up, he will still be a lifeless corpse. Unlike a car for instance, that even completely wrecked up cars can be brought back to life with a good mechanic. Why is it that human body parts when put together, cannot produce “life”… while a mechanical object put together properly can give it a sort of “life”.

Human science can preserve life. But cannot restore life.
NOW UPDATING!!!
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:25PM
vgman at 12:46PM, Feb. 4, 2007
(offline)
posts: 2,167
joined: 10-4-2006
life can be given but only after death and only if its less than 2 mins or so. we die because of the lack of oxigen to our brain. we live and survive because of oure brain. keep everything flowing smoothly for the brain and in theary u should never exspire thugh the body itself may decay.
RIP TD :cry2:
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:40PM

Forgot Password
©2011 WOWIO, Inc. All Rights Reserved