Debate and Discussion

Ghosts.
ozoneocean at 7:13AM, Nov. 2, 2010
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A lot of people still believe in these things, but as we currently understand the world and the nature of reality ghosts, spirits, demons, devils and gods don't exist.
Of course I qualify that with “currently” because anything is possible: logic is always limited by available data- but it IS fairly safe to live under the assumption (from what we know), that there are no ghosts.

So why do legends persist, and even get into the realms of fringe science?
I think it's a combination of things:
-People wanting to believe in life after death but not trusting religion for that concept.
-The romance and excitement of the idea.
-Ignorance; just not knowing any better.
-Susceptibility.
-Wishful thinking.


The other side of this is that we're limited by our 5 senses by what we can see of the world around us, and we collate all that information from all the different senses into a picture of what the word IS inside our brains- so it's really quite easy to manipulate the nature of our personal realities; it does not take much to make us see things (and believe) that can not be verified objectively:
-With any sort of drug.
-Lucid dreaming.
-Head injury.
-Brainwashing.
-Or simply just feeding a person unexpected stimuli- something they can't immediately explain, or something that confuses them that they don't understand (a hologram, projection, “dry” water, sudden temperature change etc.)

So, considering that, are ghosts actually existing inside our own minds? (not literally). Are they simply a legitimate and normal way of comprehending the uncomprehendable?
(fear is sometimes a useful response to things you can't understand)

—————————-

Or, do you just have a good reason to actually believe in ghosts as real phenomena and have a good explanation whay?
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:37PM
Genejoke at 8:58AM, Nov. 2, 2010
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We know some animals can hear on frequencies we cannot, and others can see parts of the spectrum (is that the right term?) that we cannot. So it is safe to say that there are may be things that exist beyond our perception… maybe.

I have seen ghosts twice now, both as a child though.

One was in broad daylight I saw a dog of ours in our garden, months after she died. I saw her and ran towards her (we had a huge garden) not taking my eyes off her until I stumbled, when I looked up again she was gone.

The second was some time after my grandfather died, I shared a room with my brother, we slept on bunk beds, he was on the top bunk. When we slept the door was left slightly ajar with the hall light on. I awoke to see my grand fathers face on a wispy body watching over me. I passed it off as a dream initially but in the morning I was talking to my brother and he saw it too.

There have been a number of times when I have seen/experienced something that has seemed ghostly but I have been able to work out, even as a kid I was something of a sceptic. However there have been a lot of times I haven't been able to explain things and they have creeped me out a bit.

For my beliefs… When we die it's lights out, which is contrary to what I seem to have seen but as mentioned earlier I have always been a sceptic.


My sister believes, as does my mother, both have had interesting experiences with ouija boards.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:33PM
Chernobog at 2:05PM, Nov. 2, 2010
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I think they're quite possible, just not as much as every ghost hunter wants to believe. Psyching one's self up before hand is not going to lead to level headed perception in a time of potential anxiety. Not every blurb of light on a camera means something supernatural! There are genuine explanations for why this sort of thing happens, but when it doubt, sometimes we're left to guess or make something up to come to terms with it, seems.

My only apparent ghost sighting came some five years ago during a graveyard shift at the Home Depot near my house. We all took our breaks outside on the front loading bay and we were just idly talking.

Late into that particular break, my coworker and I noticed someone coming across the highway on foot. I said, “Geez, I wonder who's late now?” We both watched, curiously, but considering just talking. Well, the figure came onto our parking lot, walked behind a thin pole by the entrance, and vanished in doing so.

After several moments; “Did you see that?” I asked. My coworker confirmed.

The figure was husky, sort of baggy, as if wearing a heavy short coat or being heavy set. I recall the figure was faintly bluish as well, sort of uniform in color and shade with little definition.

No idea what that could have been, but we both saw it and that was all there was to it. And directly across the highway? There's an old catholic cemetery.

Short of dead family members appearing in my mother and I's dreams during those rare ‘waking dreams’, that sums up my direct experience.

Mm, I've also seen what they call Shadow People, but mine are more like animals or insects usually. I'm more ready to assume that to be a trick of the eye and mind since I get a 1-2 second view and they're gone.
 
 
“You tell yourself to just
enjoy the process,” he added. “That whether you succeed or fail, win or
lose, it will be fine. You pretend to be Zen. You adopt detachment, and
ironic humor, while secretly praying for a miracle.”
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:41AM
Loud_G at 4:20PM, Nov. 2, 2010
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ozoneocean
A lot of people still believe in these things, but as we currently understand the world and the nature of reality ghosts, spirits, demons, devils and gods don't exist.
Of course I qualify that with “currently” because anything is possible: logic is always limited by available data- but it IS fairly safe to live under the assumption (from what we know), that there are no ghosts.

hehe, starting with an open mind I see :D


I don't believe in ghosts in the classical sense mostly because of knowledge of religion and the afterlife. I have a friend who has said my cosmology is very boring, but throughout my life it is the only one I've found that makes sense.

I don't believe in ghosts of those who have passed because I believe that the spirits of those who die go to a different place. They do not have unfinished business. And on rare occasion do they actually visit the earth (ie. angelic visitation). They go to the spirit world to await judgment. Good and bad, short and tall.

I believe most ghost stories boil down to: hype, vivid imaginations, youthful folly, perfectly explainable phenomena, etc. However, I do believe that Satan and his followers can fake occasional ghost sightings for his own nefarious purposes.
Find out what George is up to:

 
 
Go! Visit George or he may have to eat you!*
*Disclaimer: George may or may not eat violators depending on hunger level and scarcity of better tasting prey.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:46PM
El Cid at 7:46PM, Nov. 2, 2010
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It is possible that ghosts are real but they are not actually the souls of the dead. They could just be some kind of temporal phenomena or an imprint left by psychic energy (if there is such a thing).

Personally, I think it's all a load of fooey though.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:20PM
DAJB at 3:49AM, Nov. 3, 2010
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I tend to think that attributing phenomena to supernatural causes is just a way of saying we don't understand something. Go back a couple of centuries and people believed in all sorts of supernatural things from ghosts to witches to nature-spirits. It was a way of saying we don't really know why such-and-and such happens, so it must be caused by something “beyond” the natural world.

Many of those beliefs became discredited from the 18th Century onwards as science increasingly became the new popular religion. Everything, it seemed, could be explained by science and so there was no longer any need to attribute things to supernatural forces.

More recently, we've come to accept that science (or at least our current understanding of it) has its own limitations. And, as we continue to experience things that science (so far) hasn't been able to explain, so a lot of people are reverting to the idea that they must be caused by things that science cannot and never will be able to explain, i.e. the supernatural.

Personally, I believe science will get there eventually. Whether “ghosts” turn out to be tricks of the mind, aliens playing games with hologram projectors or the effect of parallel dimensions bleeding into ours, eventually we'll understand what they are and - at that point - they'll just be a natural rather than a supernatural phenomenon.

Until then, if nothing else, at least they're good forum fodder!
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:04PM
ayesinback at 7:58AM, Nov. 3, 2010
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As science has proven that all matter is atomic, even matter we can't see with our human eyes (light and sound waves, for example), and that energy can only be converted and not destroyed, I think it's more possible than not that some kind of energy remains after the physical body dies.

I doubt this energy comprises a cognizant being, let alone one fleshed out with “ectoplasm”, so this energy would not meet what is commonly meant by “ghost”. But the energy itself is worth looking at. Really, what is it?

The premise of Dr. Duncan MacDougall's studies is interesting. He's the one who tried to prove the existence of a soul by weighing a body immediately before and after death, and ended up recording weight losses in most cases. (It's where the movie title 21 Grams comes from.) Then there are all those ghost hunters with their nifty equipment. They do get recordings that I believe are real, which are again, energy spikes.

Calling this energy “supernatural” is rather ironic. Energy is totally natural even though it's often considered in scientific terms. We measure it; we study it; we try to predict its source and effect. But nature does not offer standard reliability, which is the foundation of science. Maybe this energy should be called “supra-science”.



btw - I was planning to change my avatar after Halloween and will once the new DD server can handle image uploads again. This current one is a “photoshop-ed” rendition of a “real photo” I found on the internet.

under new management
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:14AM
El Cid at 5:48AM, Nov. 4, 2010
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Light waves are at least made up of some kind of elementary particles (photons, not atoms), but sound waves aren't really made up of anything; they're just energy transmitting through a medium. Sorry, but I had to point that out, trivial though it may be. These small oversights ca compound if one isn't too careful. The question of “death energy” isn't all that mysterious, though. The human body is not a closed system, and upon death the chemical and minute electrical energy stored in the body dissipates into the tissues and environment, generally in the form of heat. So the energy is not destroyed; it's just reallocated through decomposition to the surroundings and organisms which feed on the body. Tempting though the thought may be, it's unlikely that the body's dissipating energy in some way carries a continuation of the individual's personality or consciousness, as these require the functioning structures of a living brain (that's what it's for). Without the hardware, it's just anonymous energy.

As for Dr. MacDougall's experiments, they're interesting in a tabloid sort of way, but they're not proof of anything. No one has ever succeeded in replicating his results, and his methods were heavily flawed. For one thing, it's not exactly accurate to say he found a drop in his subjects' weight after death. What he recorded were fluctuations in weight, both losses and gains. Of the four subjects he obtained data on, two seemed to lose weight after death then somehow gain weight minutes later, then lose yet more weight afterward. Most likely, whatever it is he observed was due to problems with his measurement apparatus and/or methodology, but even if he had demonstrated that the body weighs slightly less immediately after death there are any number of better explanations for it that the absence of a speculative soul.

It is a perplexing question though, I'll admit. If someone were killed, and medical science had the ability to repair all of the damage, including brain damage, could we revive him and bring him back to life as if nothing had ever happened? Is it just like fixing a broken machine, or is there something missing which cannot be replaced?
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:20PM
Genejoke at 6:37AM, Nov. 4, 2010
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much of what El Cid said is what I was gong to say but put far better than was going to, thanks for making it so I needn't bother.

As for the question… assuming you could stop the deterioration… well that is what cryogenic freezing is all about right?
I think the main problem would be the deterioration of the brain cells so even if you could they would likely be brain damaged or soulless.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:33PM
ayesinback at 8:43AM, Nov. 4, 2010
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El Cid
nothing I have an argument with

Just continuing the discussion of “death energy”, what are the theories to explain why different kinds of areas have energy spikes long after deaths in that area have occurred?
under new management
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:14AM
El Cid at 6:32PM, Nov. 4, 2010
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Ugh. That's probably something we're better off asking Kyupol about! My first guess is that they're just picking up some naturally-occurring electromagnetic phenomenon, and there are probably tons of places where nobody ever died where you'd likewise pick up energy spikes (though I'm sure believers will explain this by some kind of “traveling spirits” theory or that “ghosts are everywhere,” something like that). It also doesn't make much sense that ghosts would give off a higher EMF reading than the general background noise produced by the Earth and living organisms. Taking “conservation of energy” into account, if ghosts are the residual EMFs from once-living organisms, how could they possibly have higher EMFs than when they were alive? They would have to have somehow gained energy, which makes no sense. Those readings must be picking up something else entirely. It may well be a real phenomenon but they're attributing the wrong explanation.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:20PM
kyupol at 7:18PM, Nov. 4, 2010
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ozoneocean
A lot of people still believe in these things, but as we currently understand the world and the nature of reality ghosts, spirits, demons, devils and gods don't exist.
Of course I qualify that with “currently” because anything is possible: logic is always limited by available data- but it IS fairly safe to live under the assumption (from what we know), that there are no ghosts.

So why do legends persist, and even get into the realms of fringe science?
I think it's a combination of things:
-People wanting to believe in life after death but not trusting religion for that concept.
-The romance and excitement of the idea.
-Ignorance; just not knowing any better.
-Susceptibility.
-Wishful thinking.


The other side of this is that we're limited by our 5 senses by what we can see of the world around us, and we collate all that information from all the different senses into a picture of what the word IS inside our brains- so it's really quite easy to manipulate the nature of our personal realities; it does not take much to make us see things (and believe) that can not be verified objectively:
-With any sort of drug.
-Lucid dreaming.
-Head injury.
-Brainwashing.
-Or simply just feeding a person unexpected stimuli- something they can't immediately explain, or something that confuses them that they don't understand (a hologram, projection, “dry” water, sudden temperature change etc.)

So, considering that, are ghosts actually existing inside our own minds? (not literally). Are they simply a legitimate and normal way of comprehending the uncomprehendable?
(fear is sometimes a useful response to things you can't understand)

—————————-

Or, do you just have a good reason to actually believe in ghosts as real phenomena and have a good explanation whay?

Ghosts?

Two theories I've seen so far:

1) They really are spirits of deceased people who have unfinished business or attachments to this realm and refuse to leave even though their body is dead. Some of these ghosts tend to attach to people and get called by psychiatrists as “multiple personality disorder” or something like that. I'm not discounting the validity of psychology. Psychology has its valid points and sub-personalities can actually be programmed into you via mind-control (project monarch, MK-ULTRA, etc.)

Anyway going back to the topic of ghosts, I actually witnessed a spirit-releasement in progress. A woman was made to sit in a chair and she was put into hypnosis. Then in the trance state, the woman suddenly started acting very different. She's normally a shy girl but she suddenly turned into this personality of a “tough guy” who loves to make jokes and have that arrogant smirk.

The spirit was released via hypnosis without really much resistance. But I was told (by shamans, witches, etc.) that there have been instances where the spirit became violent and all that. And I was told that you have to “ground yourself in the white light of protection” or something like that when that happens.

However, when I asked these shamans about the difference between demon possession and ghosts, I was told that demons are more violent and powerful.

Not to knock on women here, but I've observed that female shamans tend to be scared of demons. I was told by two of them that they do not handle demons. They can only handle spirits or something like that – Meanwhile, a Christian friend of mine jumped on that and was like “See! False religions (non-Christian… includes Catholicism and Mormonism btw as per his definition) can only handle baby demons. But the name of Jesus Christ is feared by all Demons!”

On the other hand, a Native Indian exorcist I've talked to says otherwise… as well as this documentary I saw about exorcists in the Philippines who are non-Christian.


2) There are no such thing as ghosts. Those are really demons. Because when you die, you either go to HEAVEN OR HELL. PERIOD. NO IFS OR BUTS OR OTHER LAME EXCUSES.

____________

As for personal experience, I had quite ALOT of experiences with malevolent entities. I know they exist. But I am unsure what they are. Aliens? Ghosts? Demons? Djinns? I honestly dont know.

In the meantime, watch this documentary (warning: Christian slant but just take a look at the data it presents if you are a non-Christian)
How to stop sleep paralysis:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5590992964881412732#

NOW UPDATING!!!
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:27PM
kyupol at 8:32PM, Nov. 4, 2010
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I might also like to add this skeptical way of viewing demonic possession.

In psychology, there is such a thing known as “parts therapy”. In short, it is basically a method in where the patient is asked to break himself/herself down into different parts. For instance, if a patient has self-esteem issues but wants to have high confidence, the patient is then asked to break himself/herself down into different parts so to better analyze the situation.
http://www.partspsychology.org/

Parts therapy is also used in conjuction with hypnosis.
http://www.infinityinst.com/articles/parts_therapy.html

Sure. That does seem to provide a physical explanation and treatment for split personalities and alleged “spirit possession” (demonic or otherwise).

However, how do you explain the possessed individual suddenly telling you SPECIFIC things about you that you cannot even tell your closest friends?

Haxx on your facebook? Sure.

But what if its things that are so secretive to you that you NEVER even put them online or even tell your closest family and friends?

These entities (I call them that because I'm not sure if they're extra-terrestrial, ghost, or demon) may have the ability to scan your mind.

That is when you know that these entities are REAL.


NOW UPDATING!!!
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:27PM
ozoneocean at 10:30PM, Nov. 4, 2010
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Given what I said about us forming our picture of the world based on what our 5 senses are able to tell us, despite whatever we're able to objectively verify, I don't really see how any of these experiences really indicate the existence of ghosts, demons or any other sort of spirit.

All that needs to happen is for you to be confused enough so that you hit upon “ghosts” as the only explanation for what you've experienced.

How to explain “possessed” people knowing secret things about you? I couldn't really say, that has never, ever happened to me and I don't know for sure of any real cases of that happening anywhere.
I would guess that the poor person who thinks they're possessed (or who's accused of being that way) either already knows those “secrets”, hits on them accidentally, or the listener just imagines that the person is talking about them.

All cases of possession I've ever heard about generally involved a crazy insane but charismatic leader and a group of weak gullible followers who tortured and persecuted a victim who they imagined to be possessed- mainly because the leader said they were. With the victim usually dying or suffering severe injuries.
The only other cases are very rare ones where the person just believes they're possessed and people try and help them.- those ones COULD be a lot more common, but you don't hear about them so much because the person doesn't end up dead.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:37PM
kyupol at 11:22PM, Nov. 4, 2010
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I would guess that the poor person who thinks they're possessed (or who's accused of being that way) either already knows those “secrets”, hits on them accidentally, or the listener just imagines that the person is talking about them

Already knows the secrets? There are things that I only know of and never tell anyone.

Accidental hits? Imagine talking about them? Maybe once or twice you can say that. But with multiple consistency in rapid succession… what is the probability of that happening?

These beings can read your mind. One way to fool them is to say something different from what you are thinking (a difficult skill to learn).

NOW UPDATING!!!
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:27PM
F Y R E 13 R A N D at 11:15PM, Nov. 5, 2010
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ozoneocean
So, considering that, are ghosts actually existing inside our own minds? (not literally). Are they simply a legitimate and normal way of comprehending the uncomprehendable?

ozoneocean
not literally

ozoneocean
not literally

Crud, why do I feel like this was in some way meant to spark an investigation into psychological phenomena and how the brain models new stimuli we don't understand as merely combinations of old stimuli we're already familiar with…. but it wound up just being a debate about whether ghosts are real.

Well, my two cents on the first prospect, before I get all ghostly: “Are these phenomena a legitimate and normal way of comprehending the uncomprehendable?” Legitimate, no. Normal, yes. We love to categorize things into neat little boxes, and when we see something that doesn't quite fit Category A, the natural reaction isn't to make a new category for it, it's to say “Wow, that sure is a weird example of Category A!”

Also, humans excel at pattern recognition, especially faces. Heck, we see faces in rocks, trees, pieces of driftwood, clouds, etc. Our brains aren't built for truth, they're built for snap decisions, reacting emotionally to all the crazy crap around us, and becoming really, really attached to other people – so attached that when one of us dies, we have to make up a way for them to not be dead.

And I guess that brings us to literal ghosts, which are actually pretty annoying. I mean, you have that “Atheism vs. Religion” thread, and it's all good fun – we bat around arguments for and against God, but ultimately I think most folks are good about remembering that we can't make any objective, ultimate proofs for something that is untestable and unfalsifiable.
But ghosts?! No way, ghosts are always totally real. People tell me they're sure ghosts exist, either because they've seen one, or they know someone who saw one, or they woke up one night to see a ghost hovering over them, and then they went back to sleep. Ghosts are 100% real, because they make noises and squeak the floorboards at night, and because they tell you things that nobody else could have known. I myself have never seen a ghost, and I don't believe they exist at all, but then again, that's just proof that they're real – because if you don't believe in them, you won't ever see ‘em.

It’s the hardest thing in the world, trying to convince people there's no such thing as ghosts. It's never easy to skirt around having to tell someone they either didn't see what they thought they saw, or they were just having a dream, or they remembered it wrong, or they're just an effing lunatic. No matter what I say, or how close I get them to admitting ghosts aren't real, the emotional experience of it always pulls them back and they just say “I know what I saw.”

Hell, my girlfriend thinks there's a ghost “or something” in our basement, so she's scared to go down there alone. She still does, sometimes, to do laundry, because SHE KNOWS THERE'S NO SUCH THING AS GHOSTS. But, she still hates going down there, because SHE KNOWS THERE'S A GHOST. She has no problem with me going down there, of course, since no harm can come to me because THERE'S NO SUCH THING AS GHOSTS. But it's not okay for her, because THERE'S TOTALLY A GHOST DOWN THERE!!
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:25PM
ayesinback at 7:32AM, Nov. 6, 2010
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I've never seen a ghost, but I do use the term casually as if I believe in ghosts. When push comes to shove, I think it's just a handy catch phrase, as Oz has suggested, for terming something I don't understand. But I've had experiences enough to believe there's Something beyond gravitational, magnetic, physical phenomena.

(a) growing up as a kid, everyone in my family saw different doors (shower door, door to basement, kitchen door) slowly open itself by a few inches and then close again to the same point. no drafts, no predictable patterns. And really that's all that would happen, just doors moving, but each of us were shocked the first time we saw it happen.

(b) When house-hunting, my husband and I with our realtor were greeted at the door of one listing by the son of the sellers. His first words were: “Hi! How are you with ghosts?” This was a house from about the mid 1800s and, if anything, it seemed like it was haunted from an overuse of cheap 70s faux wood-paneling.

He then proceeded to show us decades-old, framed newspaper articles about the investigation into the happenings of the house. I asked if there were still happenings and he told us stories about how guests would be bumped, that sort of thing. So I spoke out and said, well ghost, I guess you should tell us now whether or not you want us here. No Joke: IMMEDIATELY the temperature dropped significantly. Our realtor was spooked and wanted to go, but my husband and I were curious and wanted to check things out.

So the house had been updated but the basement, no. There were several nooks, split-levels, like a maze. And not only was it freezing down there (August in NJ), but the air became so heavy you had to work to breathe. (house had electric heat - coal before that). It just got too oppressive so we finally left.

The realtor had been waiting outside for us the whole time we were in the basement and Would Not talk about that house, which was unusual. She “bright-sided” anything bizarre that we'd see—like calling a water heater someone had in the corner of their Living room “convenient”. But this visit ended our day in silence.
There's a post-script but I've already rambled on.

What I do believe is that there's at least one other plane of existence. We are here in the material plane, and I believe there is a spiritual plane. For the most part, they're separate. But at times there are cross-overs, like when mediums, shamans, etc. go seeking. Most of these folks (odds? maybe 85-90% ?) are charlatans, but I know some genuine articles. Who resides on the spiritual plane? I don't know. Ghosts, angels, demons, fairies? I don't know, and I don't know anyone who's been able to give me any consistent definition. But I have been convinced that there is something, and yeah, I'll default to calling it ghosts because I don't have another vocabulary for it.
under new management
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:14AM
kyupol at 8:06AM, Nov. 6, 2010
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What I do believe is that there's at least one other plane of existence. We are here in the material plane, and I believe there is a spiritual plane. For the most part, they're separate. But at times there are cross-overs, like when mediums, shamans, etc. go seeking. Most of these folks (odds? maybe 85-90% ?) are charlatans, but I know some genuine articles. Who resides on the spiritual plane? I don't know. Ghosts, angels, demons, fairies? I don't know, and I don't know anyone who's been able to give me any consistent definition. But I have been convinced that there is something, and yeah, I'll default to calling it ghosts because I don't have another vocabulary for it.

There are maybe an infinite number of other planes of existence. And sometimes those planes of existence tend to cross over into our realm and thats why we start seeing things like ghosts, aliens, angels, demons, etc.

There are other theories for the names of the types of beings that reside in the other planes.

1) DJINNS - The Muslims call negative non-human entities as “Djinns”. They dont have an infinite number of names to call them unlike in the west where we differentiate between fallen angel, demon, faerie, ghost, big foot, alien (further subdivided into reptoid, pleiadian, sirian, arcturian, galactic federation, ashtar command, etc. etc. etc).

2) “You humans have such a silly way of looking at things” – I actually received communication from one such entity. This is what I was told. Documented it in my blog:
http://kyupol.livejournal.com/73313.html

But like any source of information, just because the being is a higher being than humans, it doesnt necessarily mean that this being is telling the truth. It could be disinformation.

Because for one, to call people who oppose the Illuminati as “sheeple”… I dont know what to make of that but that point has some validity in it. For one, I can tell that if the NWO were to go tomorrow and the reins will be taken over by the Christian extremist right wing fanatics, we would be set back in the dark ages of the crusades and inquisition and all that.

Not to say that all Christians are bad. I've actually met ALOT of liberty-minded Christians who honestly believe that God is such a benevolent ruler and wants humanity to have liberty. Then they cite (Genesis 1:22) as biblical proof of that. Then they go further on to foam at the mouth and cite that the Vatican and the Roman Catholic Church are really Babylonians in disguise and that the Catholic Church is really a plot by Satan himself to deceive millions into thinking that Catholicism = Christianity.

However, with recent political events like the rise of the TEA party (GO RAND PAUL!!!) and other nationalistic movements around the world, I view that as a POSITIVE step against this global dictatorship that is being set up and if successful, can set back the agenda of the globalists by 100 years or so.

By the way, I do not necessarily view globalism as a bad thing. Provided that the people of the world have an input on WHAT TYPE of global government they want. Michio Kaku and others in the UFO community actually push for one world government because that is a sign of “progress” as far as our species is concerned.

However, I personally believe that the type of globalism that is being pushed on us is a tyrannical global government that believes in transhumanism for the elite and eugenics for the rest of us… probably headed up in England? Brussels? The Vatican? Israel? I dont know. That is debatable but regardless of where its head is, it sure is miles and miles away (literally and figuratively) from the type of liberty-oriented government I (and majority of the earth's people) want. Even the communist propagandists I've talked to on Filipino message boards – confused useful idiots who think Marxism = Freedom.

Sorry for veering off-topic and ranting. Cant help but see how much everything connects. :)
NOW UPDATING!!!
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:27PM
ozoneocean at 8:45AM, Nov. 6, 2010
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Kyu, when you write your best seller, please remember DD in your author acknowledgements! :)
F Y R E 13 R A N D
Crud, why do I feel like this was in some way meant to spark an investigation into psychological phenomena and how the brain models new stimuli we don't understand as merely combinations of old stimuli we're already familiar with…. but it wound up just being a debate about whether ghosts are real.
Well that's soooort of my view of the situation, but I know people love to talk about ghost experiences so I left it open with my sentence at the end.
I am surprised that no one else really looks at ghosts in that way though.

I do believe that ghosts are real to the people that see them. Same with faeries, aliens, angels, demons, Mother Mary, whatever- Not verifiably, objectively real and independently existing, but 100% real to the the person who experienced them at the time because reality is experiential- reality is shaped inside your mind from stimuli and the way the brain interprets and constructs it, and if ghosts or angels become part of that picture at the time (for whatever reason), then they were “real” to that person at the time. -as real is a chair, table, brother sister, or the house they live in.

…Many things have an influence on what you believe you see- culture, group consensus, history, religion (falls under culture), and any other preconceived notions you have. I think many people decide what it “actually” was long after the fact, at the time it's just something freaky that they can't understand or explain.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:37PM
ayesinback at 3:36PM, Nov. 6, 2010
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Ah, shoot. The name of the thread is “Ghosts”. I like ghost stories. Hope more people share their unexplainable phenoms.
under new management
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:14AM
blindsk at 4:38PM, Nov. 6, 2010
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I'm liking this. But how about explainable theories? I've got one of those - it's outrageous.

I used to want to believe in these things called “ghosts.” So much so that when I was younger I would try to hunt them down. Around the neighborhood people would often comment on old, abandoned buildings, houses, parks, as well as cemeteries, places where people were killed, and so on. A few companions of mine and I would catch wind of these places, usually by the elderly folk, and about how spirits of the deceased or people that once lived there stalk the grounds looking for peace.

So we'd set out with our flashlights and some sustenance and camp right in the middle of these spots. We figured we'd need to adhere to a few rules: make as little noise as possible so as to hear them, don't abruptly shine our flashlights, and if any of us notice or hear something, to simply point in the direction of the source rather then verbally express it.

As we laid around for an hour or two, we'd hear random noises and try to investigate. I think the closest we got to finding something were a few rodents roaming around curiously in attraction to the food we brought. But never any spirits. At first we though we might have missed them - that they had departed too early. But later we reasoned this couldn't be the case for every ghostly area, because we never found any feasible evidence. Instead, those few hours brought about boredom in which case we'd have more fun trying to scare each other rather then be scared by some otherworldly being.

So, looking back, I now conclude ghosts to be time travelers from the future. Somehow they found a way to make it into the past, and obviously with that technology they discovered invisibility. We sometimes hear strange noises and see odd shapes floating around because they're busy investigating. They sometimes get so caught up in finding out about our way of life they forget they could be detected. But when we're specifically searching for them? They're on their guard. They can tell when we're searching around for them. That's why, if you ever hear or see anything from these people, it's only a glimpse. They'll make sure to slip back into their covers before it's too late!
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:25AM
El Cid at 6:18PM, Nov. 6, 2010
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My Dad had a few good ghost stories (a lot of stories in general, but I can't remember most of them). He says he had a run-in with a ghost back in the 70s, when he first came to Houston. He had found a really cheap rent house, but everybody told him some crazy old guy had killed himself there and the place was haunted. He put down a month's rent anyway and moved in, because the place was dirt cheap. But all that first day, he felt like somebody was watching him; like there was always somebody right behind his shoulder who was never there when he turned around. And then that night he woke up startled to see this wild-looking old man standing over his bed staring at him. He jumped out of bed, still in his underwear, and hauled ass out of there. Didn't even come back to get his stuff until the sun came up. So I guess that landlord was making a killing charging folks a month's rent, because nobody ever stayed more than a day or two. Or so the story goes (sorry, I'm not as good of a storyteller as my old man).

I can't think of anything truly ghostly that's ever happened to me personally, but I did have a supernatural encounter with the Tooth Fairy once. Seriously. When I was a little kid, I did the whole thing with putting the tooth under the pillow and all, and then I woke up to find the tooth gone… but no dollar underneath! Distraught, I ran crying to my parents that the Tooth Fairy had stolen my tooth but didn't give me any money. Mom and Dad gave me that knowing smile the way parents do and told me to go look again, but I have to really believe the Tooth Fairy is real. So I walked back to my room, muttering something like “I believe in the Tooth Fairy, I believe in the Tooth Fairy” all the way there, and sure enough, there was a dollar bill there under my pillow where there hadn't been before!

So… there are any number of ways I can choose to interpret that. If I really wanted to, I could tell you that there's no other possible explanation than that the Tooth Fairy teleported into my room while I was away and tucked in that dollar she'd forgotten to give me earlier. Obviously there's no way for anyone to prove that it didn't happen just the way I said it did, and dammit it's a good story and I soooooo want my life to be special. But… it's just as likely that I missed the dollar the first time. Maybe I didn't do a thorough search in my morning grogginess, or maybe static had plastered it to the pillow at first. Or maybe one of my brothers took it while I was sleeping, then put it back when they saw I was making such a fuss. I don't know. But it's a good story.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:20PM
bravo1102 at 11:42AM, Nov. 7, 2010
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I'm liking the multiverse idea more and more lately. These entities may not be ghosts of the dead but beings from neighboring universes/dimensions that we can only see slices of. (Like the Flatlander and the apple)

This also works for “malevolent” beings that may feed off of “negative” energy. They're only malevolent in our eyes in our reality just the same way a shark is malevolent. It doesn't have an evil intention when it bites your limbs off, that's how it eats. Similarly there may be beings that feed off of our emotional energies or feed off us. But every serious researcher will tell you: NO one has ever been seriously injured or killed in a verified documented case.

I've been listening to far too much Coast to Coast AM and I sat through six seminars by Stephen Braude who's a researcher into this stuff for the past 35 years.

And then there's the old skepical stand-by of normal phenomena that people aren't capable of explaining at the time and never bother to research sufficently so they find out the explanation is mundane and not supernatural. Houses do creak and wood expands and contracts in a way that sounds very much like a knock. The radio in the house four doors down is probably the source of that EVP. That shadow looks like a person because your brain is hardwired to often organize shapes as a person.

“Oh she couldn't have known that secret information! She's a demon!” Jump to conclusions based on the flimsiest of evidence. Cold reading. When you get good enough you can fool anyone and the believer only remembers the hits not all the misses it took to get there. Read James Randi, Joe Nickell, Martin Gardner etc The supernatural can be very mundane if you do careful research.

But at the end of the day there's always that tiny bit of stuff we can't explain… yet.

But I love reading about this stuff. I have thirty plus "Ghosts of fill in the area" books. Maybe one day I'll get off my arse and do some ghost hunting of my own and show up these ex-plumbers with their fancy and useless equipment.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:34AM
kyupol at 8:39AM, Nov. 8, 2010
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“Oh she couldn't have known that secret information! She's a demon!” Jump to conclusions based on the flimsiest of evidence. Cold reading. When you get good enough you can fool anyone and the believer only remembers the hits not all the misses it took to get there.

I know all about NLP (neuro-linguistic-programming). You sense the person's eye movements, body language, tone of voice, etc. then you lead the person on.

For instance, you say something like “Something seems to be bothering you…” based on his/her eyes, facial expressions, body language, etc. There is nothing psychic about that because you can read his/her body language, tone of voice, and facial expressions.

And after you said that, he/she is gonna be like “Oh. How did you know that. You know, actually something has been bothering me… and its (*insert long discussion about whatever it is that is causing a bother*)”

And yes there's alot of misses even with people / entities who have such abilities. I am aware of that.

In the meantime, I am still doing research (not just reading books but actually walking the walk) on such abilities and other spiritual phenomenon.

As there is still alot I do not understand.

NOW UPDATING!!!
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:27PM
bravo1102 at 5:40PM, Nov. 8, 2010
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There are some huge problems with modern “ghost hunting” as opposed to the old fashioned parapsycholgical research.

There is no evidence that any of the gear a ghost hunter uses actually detects or has any utility with the phenomena being sought. Ghost hunters are at best very bad researchers who don't know how to find the pertinent information. You have to be a thorough historical researcher and most ghost hunters don't know the first thing about it. I've seen mistake after mistake that could be cleared up with some reading of history and the pertinent research in the topic and espeically modern mythology.

There are stacks and stacks of information on most supernatural stuff. I've been reading the pertinent literature for 35 years. I've interviewed people who've experienced phenomena and then looked into it. I can recognize most tricks and typical observational errors. You could say I'm a real live “trained observer”
I know what I'm looking at and I know slight of hand and other simple tricks. It's remarkable how easy it is to convince the gullible that they are seeing something that is special but is so mundane. Every car on a nearby road can be a ghost because you will not hear the accompanying noise that confirms it is a car. Sound travels in odd ways and silence can never be counted on to tell you for certain that what you are seeing is supernatural.

Visual perception in low light is a perfect example of how easily people are fooled. There is no accurate way to tell distance, size and velocity unless you have fixed reference points. Light refects and bounces around at night and there is no such thing as perfect darkness to someone who is accustomed to wandering around in the dark. Always look twice at everything because you cannot trust your eyes in the dark. Someon with vast expereince with nightvision knows this. You'll also hear things that aren't. So if you look twice you have to listen three times if not more often a lot more.

I work nights in an adult apartment building. I've seen two residents die right in front of me and have had lots of experiences that appear to be supernatural on the surface. If I was a credulous person who didn't know the background information I'd see (and espeically hear) ghosts and goblins behind every corner. I've come across more unexplained cold spots than I can count. I stop, look around and then can always trace down the draft from a window or vent. I hear groans and whispers, stop listen carefully for the source and I realize it's the air conditioning or stress on the building structure or misperception of the background noise in my own head. In total silence you can hear yourself listening.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:34AM
MrStitches at 9:10PM, Nov. 9, 2010
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If people keep making awful movies about Ghosts like Paranormal Activity or Ghost Dad, they're going to keep thinking they are unreal or silly.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:08PM
Rain27 at 9:24PM, Nov. 9, 2010
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Everyone has a dancing ghost on their heads…
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:00PM
kyupol at 6:05AM, Nov. 11, 2010
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… just talked to a Native Indian medicine woman friend of mine over the phone.

Told her about the girl problems I've been recently having. (Yes. Me and my stupidity. How many examples do I have to see before I realize that relationships with women are only trouble and that I should only keep women as friends or improvised psychiatrists!!! How many episodes of the Tom Leykis show do I need to grind into my head!!! AAAGGGH!!!)

Anyway all I did was mention the name of the girl. And this medicine-woman just told me paragraph after paragraph of information about this girl. With deadly accuracy. And I mean SPECIFIC ones and not just “oh I can see you are anxious about this girl” – which could easily be extrapolated even if you are not psychic. And could be used to lead on statements.

Details of the relationship and what was said to me would rather be private. I'm just gonna say I was advised to keep this girl at a distance. Just be her friend or improvised psychiatrist. If she crosses the line (women sometimes tend to fall in love with men who show them understanding and care), push her back. Don't be personally involved with her.

However, the point is, how did this medicine-woman know all this info? She lives very far from where I live. She knows none of my friends. And even if she did know any of my friends, I kept my girl problems a deeply-guarded secret. I never told my family or even close friends about girl problems because I feared being called a hypocrite since everyone knows I'm the guy who has had it with women and would rather be the “happy bachelor”. Havent spoken to this native indian in months.

Ask her spirit guides. :)
NOW UPDATING!!!
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:27PM
Tantz Aerine at 6:23AM, Nov. 11, 2010
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What we know is definitely by sheer scope not what there exists out there.

However, one can be fairly sure that whatever we don't know yet exists, still will follow natural laws like everything else we do know.

The catch is, that there may be physical laws we don't know about either, be it because they come in effect in conditions humans generally don't exist in (thus not likely to research/ experience in normal circumstances) or after a set of prerequisites occurs that makes the particular law's effect happen.

I never let myself forget the whole aerodynamic law tangle with the flight of the bumblebee- there was a time where our known laws of aerodynamics forbade the bumblebee to fly with the wings it had, yet the little bugger didn't seem to have gotten the memo and flew around anyway, getting our scientists to climp up the walls. ;P

It was after a lot of research they managed to explain how the bumblebee wings manage to lift and propel his chubby, heavy body.

If we hadn't actually seen bumblebees fly, nobody would ever believe (based on the aerodynamic laws we originally had known) that such wings would be able to lift such a body, and anyone trying to argue for such an occurence would be at best laughed off.

In the same trajectory, I think it is the only sensible thing to consider that everything we consider ‘magical’ and which has occured at least once within our universe is bound by some natural law combination.

I also think that since our brains are part of this universe, developed and evolved in it, if our minds can conceive of something, there is a good chance that this something exists in some shape or form. Maybe not as flamboyant as we may imagine it, but in essence.

Therefore dismissing ghosts is, in my opinion, just as naive as accepting their existence without question.

I have had experiences indicating that there is consciousness beyond death. Whether though that would qualify as a ghost is debatable. Others have seen people looking pretty much flesh and blood, thinking them alive, only to be informed they were newly departed. Information one couldn't have known has been passed by someone who is deceased in dreams or during waking.

Some of these claims are shams. Others are real.

We should keep an open mind and LOTS of scientific methodology/thought at the ready.

Just, the problem with keeping an open mind is that you can't dismiss things ‘on principle’… and that is often such a bother, especially for those who claim to have open minds :p Heh heh!

 
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:07PM
F Y R E 13 R A N D at 7:50AM, Nov. 11, 2010
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kyupol
However, the point is, how did this medicine-woman know all this info?

Well, do her a favor and ask her to demonstrate her ability to James Randi. If she passes a controlled scientific test of her power, she'll win a cool ONE MILLION DOLLARS. I can't imagine a reason she wouldn't want to get paid that much for something that can be done so easily, right?

http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/1m-challenge/challenge-application.html
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:25PM

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