Debate and Discussion

Girl in Comics or the Feminist in Me Complains Again
mapaghimagsik at 8:39PM, Aug. 22, 2007
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ozoneocean
I didn't mean to knock you down or anything there… I apologise for being a bit brisk in that reply. :(

You're just afraid of being seduced, brought home and killed slowly :D
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ozoneocean at 9:59AM, Aug. 23, 2007
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Vagina Dentata is my main worry. T_T lol!

Heh, no, I've always got to reel myself in and realise that there's a multiplicity of opinion and ways of looking at things, I can't force people to see it my way if they don't want to. -and I don't want them to feel coerced. :P
 
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crazyninny at 11:03AM, Aug. 23, 2007
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… Whats Vagina Dentata?:dizzy:

And its not that I have to see everyones veiw on a subject, its that I'm going to have to get used to people not liking my views and ideas. I mean, when your a comic creator, I'm going to face a lot of negative comments and there be people who'll hate my ideas. But I really can't just snap back or have a hissy fit over it, now can I? ^o^ Nope, I just got to grow up, suck it in, and hope for the best. ^_^
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mlai at 1:55PM, Aug. 23, 2007
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crazyninny
… Whats Vagina Dentata?:dizzy:
It reminds me of that noir horror anime Wicked City. The main character was about to um mate with some woman. Turns out she is a black widow demoness, and she has inch long teeth lining her ******. I've never seen a man pull out and fly out of bed so quick.

FIGHT current chapter: Filling In The Gaps
FIGHT_2 current chapter: Light Years of Gold
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mapaghimagsik at 4:59PM, Aug. 23, 2007
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Vagina Dentata is teeth in the vagina, you know, to bite off the penis like some sort of bad Roger Waters video?


What!? We've got a comic called ‘Penis’ we can say ‘vagina’.

There was a book I was looking at about sex and relationships. The author kept referring to the vagina as ‘her kitty’

How the heck am I supposed to take the author seriously? Or anime that referred to the vagina as ‘the taco’. Gravy.
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crazyninny at 7:26PM, Aug. 23, 2007
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… Okay… Who ever was the frist person to think about teeth in the vigina was a sicko. *Pukes her brains out.*
And don't worry gents *And for those special ladies out there. *Wink wink.**, I'm pretty sure there isn't any teeth down there. ^_^ In your dreams, maybe, but not in real life… That I know of. >=3

And that is true, if your going to be taken serouisly, don't say that the vigina if a taco, are you saying that it there's cheese and lettuce up there? And if your vigina is purring, go to the doctor… NOW.
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Aurora Moon at 7:36PM, Aug. 23, 2007
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LOL. yeah….

The first time I heard the term “pink taco” I was literally picturing an actual pink taco, and I was like “So is that a Mexican way to celebrate Valentine's day or something? Who would want to eat a pink taco?”

And then I had people telling me what it was really, and I was like “OH! Jeez…what is it with people always comparing lady bits to food and animals? You don't see people going around comparing male genitals to hotdogs or something!”
I'm on hitatus while I redo one of my webcomics. Be sure to check it out when I'n done! :)
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ozoneocean at 8:05PM, Aug. 23, 2007
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Aurora Moon
and I was like “OH! Jeez…what is it with people always comparing lady bits to food and animals? You don't see people going around comparing male genitals to hotdogs or something!”
Yes you do… All the time?

This has strayed though… It's all my fault I suppose. :)

SO then putting aside the question of appropriate nomenclature of pudenda for the nonce, what do you think about the roles of female characters in modern popular comics these days? Are they still the same old stereotypes or have things changed? -(roles, not looks)
 
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crazyninny at 8:24PM, Aug. 23, 2007
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I actually think we've moved from the old stereotype the women in comics are there for eye candy and to be saved. Just like in books and movies where women are now kicking ass instead of being in need.

But, there'll always be the linger of people only looking at the girls body, and there'll always be a time when they need saveing, but it also applies to men to.

Like, we still sometimes look at male comic hero's to be the well built, handsome billionare that we've come to known over the years. But now these days, we'er seeing less and less of them, and more and more regular guys than normal.

Which also goes for girls.
Back in the old days, only blonds and brownies could be heroiens, and black haired girls where villians. *Lets not forget that it was always long, thick hair.* But these days, more differnt shades of colors and different shapeds girls are playing hero roles. From Tim Burtons love for red heads *Sally lover!* to Kitties overly bushy brown hair from the X-Men. *She always looked to me like she needed to eat something. =3
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mapaghimagsik at 8:50PM, Aug. 23, 2007
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ozoneocean
This has strayed though… It's all my fault I suppose. :)

SO then putting aside the question of appropriate nomenclature of pudenda for the nonce, what do you think about the roles of female characters in modern popular comics these days? Are they still the same old stereotypes or have things changed? -(roles, not looks)

They have changed – the fact there's female characters with depth has improved things quite a bit. I remember a batman comic where some DA who was female got “spanked” by Batman for basically being a bitch. Nice role model for those “uppity” women out there.

So things have changed, a lot.

But I don't see why you want to separate looks from role. Comics are a visual medium, and I'd argue that looks are part and parcel with the role.
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ozoneocean at 9:23PM, Aug. 23, 2007
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mapaghimagsik
But I don't see why you want to separate looks from role. Comics are a visual medium, and I'd argue that looks are part and parcel with the role.
You might, but what about the fact that the male characters always were and still are perfect equivalents to the female characters in terms of appearance? (sexually desirable idealised bodies with costumes specifically designed to highlight these traits). It sort of cancels out that whole issue. Sexism is about a disparity, or discrimination based on sex, logically (relatively and equivalently), there never was any, or there was very little, therefore I wish to exclude that because it is a less important detail. Very much so!

The disparity was more significant in how the characters were made to act and the situations they were put into. Like that spanking you mentioned, :)
 
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pastel at 12:08PM, Aug. 24, 2007
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Big boobs on a woman in a comic don't bother me. It's usually big boobs and scant tiny and tight clothing that do it. That just seems trashy.


Anyway, the thing I don't like to read about girls in comics is when flat-chested girls are treated as victims that rise up and overcome that big-breasted girl that gets all the guys and is a mean jerk and blah blah.

I have big boobs and I knew plenty of smaller girls that got more guys than me and were sluttier and meaner than me. I just dislike having big boobs represent sluttiness and dumbness.

I understand that some small-chested girls get angry at all the female characters with big boobs, but they shouldn't have to feel vindicated at the expense of big-boobed girls.
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bobhhh at 2:00PM, Aug. 24, 2007
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Maybe I missed it somewhere, but has anybody mentioned the fact that most of these comic artists you mention are male, and as such fantasize about both themselves being virile, buff, indestructible men and women being voluptuous, enticing goddesses?

When you do find women comic artists you get things from their perpective, like Alison Bechdel. Some male artists do portray women more realistically, but at the risk of stating the obvious, there is a decidedly adolescent bent to the world of comic books that remains from its former status as the primary diversion of teenage boys.

Bob
My name is Bob and I approved this signature.
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mapaghimagsik at 2:42PM, Aug. 24, 2007
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mapaghimagsik
But I don't see why you want to separate looks from role. Comics are a visual medium, and I'd argue that looks are part and parcel with the role.
You might, but what about the fact that the male characters always were and still are perfect equivalents to the female characters in terms of appearance? (sexually desirable idealised bodies with costumes specifically designed to highlight these traits). It sort of cancels out that whole issue.


Not really. People got really upset about Justice Society #7


I agree to a point, but how people react to this ‘idea’ is pretty interesting as well. Especially since the ideal is more of the male idea of men – Let be honest here. 300 the movie was homoerotic porn for straight men. All the olive oil, macho, and *ahem* “spear” waving.

But on to behavior. Again, I point to Women in Refridgerators. Its a great look at the role and purpose of women in comics – not just the heroines, but women as the girlfriend, wife, mother and all that stuff.

The disparity was more significant in how the characters were made to act and the situations they were put into. Like that spanking you mentioned, :)


Nothing like a macho superhero to deal with those uppity women.

And just to plug the disturbing I found and read Brat Pack bout a year ago. Very disturbing and chilly stuff, and appropriate because it explores the whole superhero genre and how many stories really did exploit kids. A lot.
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crazyninny at 6:41PM, Aug. 24, 2007
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pastel
Big boobs on a woman in a comic don't bother me. It's usually big boobs and scant tiny and tight clothing that do it. That just seems trashy.


Anyway, the thing I don't like to read about girls in comics is when flat-chested girls are treated as victims that rise up and overcome that big-breasted girl that gets all the guys and is a mean jerk and blah blah.

I have big boobs and I knew plenty of smaller girls that got more guys than me and were sluttier and meaner than me. I just dislike having big boobs represent sluttiness and dumbness.

I understand that some small-chested girls get angry at all the female characters with big boobs, but they shouldn't have to feel vindicated at the expense of big-boobed girls.

Oh yeah! I totally get you, I'm also a very blessed chested girl, but really, do we always have to be the slutty bitches who uses there bodies *Okay, I do sometimes…* to get away with evil. And always its the small chested girls that are good who kicks the big chested girls butt and wins. *Rolls her eyes.* Really, and when we are the heros, us big girls always seem to want to wear as little clothing as possible, no matter the weather or envirotment.

Thats why my main character in my comic is large chested like me. I want people to look at her and see that even D-cups can be the cute heros like the small cupped girls. Hey, not every big cupped girl is a dump slut, some of us are caring people who knowes all the state capitals. ^_^
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SomaX at 5:38PM, Aug. 28, 2007
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Well, concidering the fact that I'm 13 and a 32 E, I don't really notice…

Honestly, I'll be reading comics or playing videogames while a friend of mine is over and they'll be all “that chick's boobs are HUGE!!” And I'll be like “Really? I didn't notice.” Actually, I find it funny when you have all these feminists who protest things because their models have really large breasts.

Actually, what bothers me is that you have to be a preppy size 4 with blonde hair girly girl to be concidered “normal” nowadays.
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ccs1989 at 5:49PM, Aug. 28, 2007
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Bubb Lee
The generic personality of the super heroine is to have D-Cups, long flowing hair, be white, and to seduce everyone if not playing the nice girl next door. Sure some are smart, but their D-cups always come first in their list of assets.

So guys, is that the only type of girl that draws you to a comic?

And Girls what type of girl would you like to see in comics?

Are there any none stereotypical female characters that you really like (ex: Death from the Sandman Series)?


I agree that I think this is definitely something that turns female readers OFF of American comics. At the moment I think the best portrayals of women in comics comes out in what Brian K. Vaughn writes (Y: The Last Man, Runaways, Ex Machina). Personally I would like to see more strong women in comics who don't wear ridiculous revealing outfits, or have D: Cups. Unfortunately Marvel and DC Comics are very editor controlled and therefore geared toward what these companies think of as the ideal “Fanboy Loser” comic reader. Also superhero comic artists are usually male and probably like drawing D Cups.
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“If one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours.”
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ozoneocean at 7:16PM, Aug. 28, 2007
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ccs1989
I agree that I think this is definitely something that turns female readers OFF of American comics. At the moment I think the best portrayals of women in comics comes out in what Brian K. Vaughn writes (Y: The Last Man, Runaways, Ex Machina). Personally I would like to see more strong women in comics who don't wear ridiculous revealing outfits, or have D: Cups. Unfortunately Marvel and DC Comics are very editor controlled and therefore geared toward what these companies think of as the ideal “Fanboy Loser” comic reader. Also superhero comic artists are usually male and probably like drawing D Cups.
Personally, I could care less weather they're C, D, HHH, cups, buckets, or whatever else. I personally don't like all the massively muscular male bodies of which there are and always have been a helluva LOT more in US comics, in reviling skin tight costumes. That always put me off a bit… But a lot of people still like comic nevertheless, no matter how the characters appear, and I don't begrudge them that.

As for anybody who says “oh no, the depictions of women are degrading and should change in such and such a way”, I can't begin to express the utter depth of my contempt for the ignorance, hypocrisy, and double standard of this position. Let alone the dictatorial nature of it: So ONE sex is not allowed to be depicted in certain ways, but it's still ok to depict the other in those exact same ways? And that would draw more of a certain kind of people to the comics? That's just stupid really. There are different forms and varieties of all media out there for you to choose from, if one turns you off surely there's another that will be more to your taste, why must all media be forced to conform to one single idea of taste?

The market decides, as long as it is within normal censorship rules. -And as you and others have said; there are comics that do appeal to different tastes and don't have your muscles and boob brigades. So what's the issue?

And what if suddenly one day all the women in US superhero comics were turned into different versions of your mother? Most characters in those comics are men anyway, and they'd still be your muscular, crotch thrusters in skin tight leotards, hopped up on steroids and bleeding testosterone out of every pore.
Interesting scenario… not my cup of tea, certainly ;)

Face it, this is not only a superficial argument, it's meaningless.

-Sorry ccs1989, this has come off as more of a rant and it's not really directed against you, or anybody really. Because I don't really think you're advocating the position I'm supposedly arguing against here…
mapaghimagsik
I agree to a point, but how people react to this ‘idea’ is pretty interesting as well. Especially since the ideal is more of the male idea of men – Let be honest here. 300 the movie was homoerotic porn for straight men. All the olive oil, macho, and *ahem* “spear” waving.
It may very well have been. I've not seen it myself, but if so, it's not that much different from Classical Greek culture then ^_^

And about a “male” idea of men… Well it is “a” male idea of men, but not all men like to imagine men in that way, and many women don't mind seeing men this way, so I don't see that as being such a big thing. I mean, there are male and female artists who draw in all sorts of styles that depict men and women in attractive ways, is there something wrong with one sex depicting the other in an attractive way? should the sexes be segregated along the lines of what sorts of art they're allowed to produce?

-Excuse me, I don't want to characterise your position as being something it's not, but the entire theme of most of this debate seems to be heading towards something rather authoritarian. Not that anything you've said is at all that way inclined :)
 
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crazyninny at 6:34PM, Aug. 29, 2007
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bobhhh
Maybe I missed it somewhere, but has anybody mentioned the fact that most of these comic artists you mention are male, and as such fantasize about both themselves being virile, buff, indestructible men and women being voluptuous, enticing goddesses?

When you do find women comic artists you get things from their perpective, like Alison Bechdel. Some male artists do portray women more realistically, but at the risk of stating the obvious, there is a decidedly adolescent bent to the world of comic books that remains from its former status as the primary diversion of teenage boys.

Bob

I've noticed that too. No one has really mentioned about when a girl comic artist potrays women in comics, like myself. Actually, I feel like we'er shying away from when a women artist portrays women in comics.

Of course men will fantasize in their stories and art about the perfect built hero's has beautiful and strong, but we women also do that to. We can't put all the blame on men for how characters of both sexes are seen in comics, us women have had our hands in creating comic since comics started. *I personally study the history of women comic artists.*
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mapaghimagsik at 9:48AM, Aug. 30, 2007
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crazyninny
*I personally study the history of women comic artists.*

Sounds interesting. Can you give some sources for the curious?
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crazyninny at 1:46PM, Aug. 30, 2007
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I'll find the title of a great book that really went down in the history of Women comic artist. It was really great, like, when comics started out, women had to take male names to sell their comics.
And, the very frist black female heroine was created by a Woman artist? *And she really took the male role, she would have a new boyfriend everyother day like Batman! Plus, the comic was its first to preach the dangers of pollution.*
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Kyuuketsuki at 12:39PM, Aug. 31, 2007
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My favourite non-stereotypical female charecter has to be Sita from ‘The last vampire’ series of books.
Okay, her appearence is quite stereotypical but her manner and personality don't feel stereotypical.

I don't mind busty female charecters so long as they don't act like bimbos.
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spacehamster at 6:18AM, Sept. 1, 2007
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This obsession over the fact that superheroines tend to have idealized bodies and the comics are therefore “sexist” irritates me to no end. Why is it that so many people refuse to acknowledge that the male characters' bodies are equally idealized and exaggerated? And in case you actually need me to point this out to you, spandex does not, in fact, stick to the crevices between your abs. They draw it that way so that you can see the six pack. For some reason, however, this apparently doesn't constitute “objectification”, while skimpy outfits on women do. The mind boggles.

There are actually interesting questions that could be asked about superhero comics that relate directly to their depiction of the human body - many illustrations in the genre are similar to art created under facist and communist regimes (particularly the male characters, in fact), and it would probably be worthwhile to examine how this relates to the fundamentally fascist idea that just because someone is more physically powerful than most, they're also ethically superior and can be blindly trusted with making decisions that have far-reaching consequences.

But unfortunately, we don't get to talk about that because it all gets drowned out in a resounding chorus of “OMG BIG BOOBS YOU EVIL BAD SEXIST MISOGYNIST MALE CHAUVINIST PIG”.

Sigh.
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yadiel at 7:53PM, Sept. 3, 2007
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Actually I agree with spacehamster, I never thought of it, but he's right, the males in most comics (not all) are equally exagerated as females, they all are tall, with a perfectly exersised body, even on games Mario and Luigi are an exception, but also that princess.
Also I agree with pastel, big boobs indicate nothing, actually I dislike when my friends or any other guy say some girl is hot just because her boobs or butt, …actually I don't care for the term “hot”…it's just irrelevant, and..actuall I have lost track of the topic hahahah.
Well anyway, I don't think there's anyway to get mad at the idealist comic representation of females and male, I also draw them that way in my webmanga, but in any moment I've tried to be sexiest or anything, it's more like what the greeks did in their sculptures, to extol human body, I don't draw D cups (at least I think I don't), or muscle full males, but I do try to draw nice characters, even the evil guys.

But yes I agree that at some point this kind of drawing stop beign just idealist, they became extremist, and that's when it becomes a problem.

Just my opinion =D
<— by the way crits are more than welcome =D
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mapaghimagsik at 7:08AM, Sept. 4, 2007
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Its true that the male idea is drawn in comics just like the female ideal. What I find interesting is that the male ideal in many instances is much healthier for the person to achieve than the female ideal. Both ideals are pretty much unreachable, but the male ideal doesn't involve starvation and silicone – well unless you *really* can't get those pects going.

Then, of course, you have The Thing, who isn't hot in the least, and as a matter of fact, had a huge storyline about being unhot, and that only a blind sculptress could see the beautiful person he was on the inside. Perhaps someone knows of an equally prominent female character that went through the same thing – over and over again?

You know, getting around to the fantastic four – Was Reed Richards “hot”? He was more like this “My Three Sons” kind of thing. Smoked a pipe and the whole thing.

But, comparing the depiction of women in comics to say, pay equality, pay equality is *much* higher on my “this should be fixed scale”. There's lots of comics that appeal to my tastes, so if some comic book artist can only draw his “waifeer theen” fantasy girlfriend, Its not that big of a deal.
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yadiel at 10:52AM, Sept. 4, 2007
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Beign hulk onf every comic is not as healthy as it seems =P heheheh. But yep, maybe the scale tents to go more in the female side.
I was forgeting, we have another variant of ideal male in comics…well it's in manga…the…how to say it…the guys that are even more feminin than girls XD the result of all the sexed fangirls in the world XD hahaha, no offense to anyone, it's just funny, I have nothing against anyone, but fangirls can get scary,…reaaaally scary, even more that Star Wars fans and Trekies together. XDD
<— by the way crits are more than welcome =D
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mapaghimagsik at 12:11PM, Sept. 4, 2007
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yadiel
Beign hulk onf every comic is not as healthy as it seems =P heheheh. But yep, maybe the scale tents to go more in the female side.
I was forgeting, we have another variant of ideal male in comics…well it's in manga…the…how to say it…the guys that are even more feminin than girls XD the result of all the sexed fangirls in the world XD hahaha, no offense to anyone, it's just funny, I have nothing against anyone, but fangirls can get scary,…reaaaally scary, even more that Star Wars fans and Trekies together. XDD

That's true! I think manga covers more of a breadth of tastes that Marvel and DC either chose not to explore or didn't think of.

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spacehamster at 12:43PM, Sept. 4, 2007
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mapaghimagsik
Its true that the male idea is drawn in comics just like the female ideal. What I find interesting is that the male ideal in many instances is much healthier for the person to achieve than the female ideal. Both ideals are pretty much unreachable, but the male ideal doesn't involve starvation and silicone

The male ideal as presented by superhero comics is next to unattainable without steroids. For most guys, anyway. Plus if you want to look as ripped as the average superhero, you'd either need to have almost 0% body fat or get your skin peeled off.
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mapaghimagsik at 12:45PM, Sept. 4, 2007
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spacehamster
mapaghimagsik
Its true that the male idea is drawn in comics just like the female ideal. What I find interesting is that the male ideal in many instances is much healthier for the person to achieve than the female ideal. Both ideals are pretty much unreachable, but the male ideal doesn't involve starvation and silicone

The male ideal as presented by superhero comics is next to unattainable without steroids. For most guys, anyway. Plus if you want to look as ripped as the average superhero, you'd either need to have almost 0% body fat or get your skin peeled off.

And the rest of my post? I agree that body fat and spandex *really* don't work so well in comics, but what about other characters? Did you see any parallels?
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crazyninny at 1:47PM, Sept. 4, 2007
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If given the choice, I'd rather see a male super hero with a healthy normal body, to a body that looks like it came off of Planet Steroid. @_@
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:48AM

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