Debate and Discussion

Hate Crimes
mapaghimagsik at 11:57AM, Aug. 27, 2007
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I guess i'm just not comfortable with banning emotions.
lol! I think you've been trying to work things around so that you can make that joke but it hasn't really worked that smoothly… Ended up a bit belaboured unfortunately.


But that's what “framing” is supposedly best at. If you can frame ‘hate crime laws’ as ‘outlawing emotions’ then you win the internet or something. At the very least, you don't have to argue each individual hate crime law – which indeed might be poorly worded – or actually might be something that people – who wouldn't agree with having their emotions banned – would agree with.

I personally try to avoid framing as much as I can, or at least explain the frame.

last edited on July 14, 2011 1:51PM
TnTComic at 12:02PM, Aug. 27, 2007
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I guess i'm just not comfortable with banning emotions.
lol! I think you've been trying to work things around so that you can make that joke but it hasn't really worked that smoothly… Ended up a bit belaboured unfortunately.



I'm not trying to make a joke or to sloganize anything. I'm trying to crystalize what is going on.

They are making the system such that you can be punished for hating someone, ON TOP OF whatever you did to them. Its absurd. Matthew Shephard was killed because he was gay. If he was killed for his money instead of his sexuality, why should his killers be punished less? Because they were greedy instead of bigoted?

I just don't see the value to it. This is America, and you're free to hate here.

My father-in-law is pretty racist, and I don't care. Its the man's choice. Would I rather he not be? Sure. But its not my life, its his. If he wants to hate people, he can.
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:31PM
mapaghimagsik at 12:06PM, Aug. 27, 2007
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ozoneocean
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I guess i'm just not comfortable with banning emotions.
lol! I think you've been trying to work things around so that you can make that joke but it hasn't really worked that smoothly… Ended up a bit belaboured unfortunately.



I'm not trying to make a joke or to sloganize anything. I'm trying to crystalize what is going on.

They are making the system such that you can be punished for hating someone, ON TOP OF whatever you did to them. Its absurd. Matthew Shephard was killed because he was gay. If he was killed for his money instead of his sexuality, why should his killers be punished less? Because they were greedy instead of bigoted?

Henderson and McKinney were not charged with a hate crime. What's your point here?

I just don't see the value to it. This is America, and you're free to hate here.

Hate crime legislation doesn't change that. So don't worry, hate is protected.

My father-in-law is pretty racist, and I don't care. Its the man's choice. Would I rather he not be? Sure. But its not my life, its his. If he wants to hate people, he can.

I don't care either. But if he started burning crosses in lawns while running around in a white sheet, is it just ‘vandalism’?
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:51PM
TnTComic at 12:14PM, Aug. 27, 2007
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I don't care either. But if he started burning crosses in lawns while running around in a white sheet, is it just ‘vandalism’?


Yep.

And trespassing.

Littering too.

Maybe arson.

Sticks and stones, you know?
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:31PM
mapaghimagsik at 12:18PM, Aug. 27, 2007
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mapaghimagsik
I don't care either. But if he started burning crosses in lawns while running around in a white sheet, is it just ‘vandalism’?


Yep.

And trespassing.

Littering too.

Maybe arson.

Sticks and stones, you know?

And so threatening other people with more of the same isn't a crime either?

I guess the Nazis didn't do anything wrong then murder then?
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:51PM
Aurora Moon at 12:20PM, Aug. 27, 2007
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My father-in-law is pretty racist, and I don't care. Its the man's choice. Would I rather he not be? Sure. But its not my life, its his. If he wants to hate people, he can.

and if he started to act up by doing stuff like creating oraginzations that publically stated that black/mexican/whatever people should be wiped off the face of earth, I hope you would want the law to step in and stop him.

After all, Such actions often promots for pyshical actions against other people to take place, and that's when it can get dangerous.

if he's just some cranky old man just sitting on his porch muttering under his breath, not really doing much then yeah he doesn't really propse a threat at all.

It's all about the Actions. So if PAST ACTIONS, such as running an “hate black” website, promted the said person to feel justifed enough to go kill somebody… then the past actions add on to that crime.

So you see? it's not about hating the person.

Heck, there's been plenty of white/black/whatever people who was simply jailed for killing people even though there was people saying it was a hate crime and therefore should had been jailed for much longer.

But on the other hand there's been people who were jailed for hate crimes BECAUSE there was EVIDENCE THAT PAST ILLEGAL MINOR ACTIONS LED UP TO THE MORE SERIOUS CRIME, MAKING IT A MORE SEVERE CRIME.

Let me take pedophiles as an example. Normally, peophiles who were just caught on one single offense such as raping some young girl are given the typical 10 years' time or something.
But if there was EVDIENCE that he had PAST offenses (gathering nude pictures of little girls off the net, chatting up little children, etc) that led up to his “need” of raping a little girl…then that's clear evience that he has an obbession with children, and much more likely to reoffend again….making him all that more dangerous. So of course he's given twice the sentence!

It's just the same with racists– it's nothing big if it was a small offense like throwing a rock though somebody's window…they get charged with property damages and is told to compesate for the damages.
But if they had PAST offenses that showed evidence that thier prejudices is more dangerous and obbessive…then the crime becomes much, much more serious.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 11:10AM
TnTComic at 12:22PM, Aug. 27, 2007
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Jeez guys, that whole freedom of speech thing is a real bitch when you don't like what someone is saying, isn't it?

last edited on July 14, 2011 4:31PM
mapaghimagsik at 12:24PM, Aug. 27, 2007
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Jeez guys, that whole freedom of speech thing is a real bitch when you don't like what someone is saying, isn't it?



Wow, didn't know murder and rape were covered by freedom of speech.

But I'll bite, threatening to kill someone's kid – is that free speech, or assault?
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:51PM
Aurora Moon at 12:32PM, Aug. 27, 2007
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Jeez guys, that whole freedom of speech thing is a real bitch when you don't like what someone is saying, isn't it?



Wow, didn't know murder and rape were covered by freedom of speech.

But I'll bite, threatening to kill someone's kid – is that free speech, or assault?

Yeah. and I suppose a father shouldn't be worried for his kids if some pedophile tells him that he (the pedo) would like to rape his children one of those days. After all, he's just expressing his freedom of speech, and not really doing anything to his children…. right?

actually happened years ago–I remember reading in an article about how cops couldn't really do anything because this one crazy guy was just telling this father about how he'd like to do things to the father's children, but not really doing anything at all. Freedom of speech and all. But blam! out of the blue one day, the father's youngest son gets raped… and the worse bit, the crazy guy had aids.

funny how that whole freedom of speech can be used by criminals to stay free while getting away with things like tormenting a whole family with the idea of rape, huh?

sometimes people need to be held accountable for what they say… because sometimes as much as people are loathe to adimit…but sometimes words can hold so much power.
I'm on hitatus while I redo one of my webcomics. Be sure to check it out when I'n done! :)
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:10AM
mapaghimagsik at 12:48PM, Aug. 27, 2007
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sometimes people need to be held accountable for what they say… because sometimes as much as people are loathe to adimit…but sometimes words can hold so much power.

But really, isn't this whole discussion bs? People are not concerned about free speech, or the need to be “free to hate”. If they were the battle cry would have been much more about how verbal assault isn't really assault, or that the 9/11 hijackers really just killed some people and were expressing their right to hate Americans.

I like the example of a legal case about a homosexual getting killed – and the killers were never charged with a hate crime as “how hate crime is destroying free speech”, and when asked how its relevant when there was no hate crime legislation at all, ignores the question.

Its not about the free speech to these people. Its about the fags, mostly. I just wish they'd own it, rather than make up how their precious rights are being trampled upon when they are not.



last edited on July 14, 2011 1:51PM
Aurora Moon at 1:01PM, Aug. 27, 2007
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yeah. I know what you mean.

and the crazy part is that those same people don't get the fact that it's not all about jailing every person who says: “Man, I hate black/gay/whatever”.

it's all to stop harassment, actions that leads to making life difficult for others.

It's one thing to say: “I dislike black/gay/whatever” but it's another thing to constantly call up your next door neighbor who happens to be black/gay/whatever and call him/her all sorts of nasty names and also about how you'd like to fucking kill him/her and do nasty stuff to his/her family.
The first part is just merely an opinion, and the second one is an ACTION which leads to Harassment.
If nothing is done about the Harassment, then the same criminal may be encouraged to try something much more worse than just harassing the said neighbor via phone. Like carrying out his/her threats.

prevention is key, and I've been trying to tell him that over and over. sigh. But I guess when some people just don't want to get it, they won't.
I'm on hitatus while I redo one of my webcomics. Be sure to check it out when I'n done! :)
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:10AM
mapaghimagsik at 1:07PM, Aug. 27, 2007
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I can't wait, after all this explanation, for some asstard to post “I don't like how you're taking away my right to hate someone”


Is it disrespectful to insult a future poster? >:)
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:51PM
Vindibudd at 1:15PM, Aug. 27, 2007
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I noticed that “hate crimes” was about to hijack another thread, so I thought i would spawn a separate topic. I won't change anyone's minds, but perhaps i can make one side of the debate a little clearer.

Personally, I think hate crime legislation can be useful.


A crime is a crime is a crime is a crime. Hate crime legislation is thought crime legislation. If someone kills someone I love and they did it because they hate that person, that doesn't make them any more dead. The reason for committing a crime is not illegal. The commission of the crime is. It is stupid to make something a hate crime therefore elevating that victim over other victims of the same thing. Oh he killed that guy because the guy was gay, so that killer is WAY WORSE than the killer who killed the guy because he wanted money.

Please.
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:42PM
mapaghimagsik at 1:20PM, Aug. 27, 2007
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Read the thread. You post the same old same old, when its been demonstrated your argument isn't the case.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:51PM
Vindibudd at 1:25PM, Aug. 27, 2007
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mapaghimagsik
Read the thread. You post the same old same old, when its been demonstrated your argument isn't the case.

Well that was the first post and a response to it. I doubt very much so that murdering someone for one reason or another is somehow worse.
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:42PM
mapaghimagsik at 1:29PM, Aug. 27, 2007
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Read the thread. You post the same old same old, when its been demonstrated your argument isn't the case.

Well that was the first post and a response to it. I doubt very much so that murdering someone for one reason or another is somehow worse.
Which is old ground in the thread.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:51PM
Vindibudd at 1:42PM, Aug. 27, 2007
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mapaghimagsik
Which is old ground in the thread.

People bring up the idea of terrorism. Terrorism is not a hate crime. Terrorism is a war crime. Terrorism is the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, especially for political purposes, technically.

There is a clear difference between whacking someone, and whacking them because you are trying to “intimidate” a group. Lynchings were not hate crimes, they were acts of terrorism that also involved murder. Actually, it is closer to genocide what the KKK was doing.

It still does not change the reality that attaching a penalty to a murder because of what that person thinks about the world is stupid and worse, not ethical.

In fact, classifying something as a hate crime is just as hateful as the alleged hate criminal.

What makes your opinion of something more valid than that person's opinion?
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:42PM
mapaghimagsik at 1:44PM, Aug. 27, 2007
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I see the decision was not to read, but to plow on. Okay.

I guess then attempted murder is just assault, and the guy who did the first WTC bombing was just a vandal.

Oh wait, “Death To America” is just a phrase, right? :) Even when they act on it. If it was an American citizen, its treason. Hmmm so as long as you target a group no protected by the law, its legal!


last edited on July 14, 2011 1:51PM
Vindibudd at 1:57PM, Aug. 27, 2007
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mapaghimagsik
I see the decision was not to read, but to plow on. Okay.

I guess then attempted murder is just assault, and the guy who did the first WTC bombing was just a vandal.


Oh you mean that. Well if someone slaps you, that is simple assault. If someone shoots you, that is attempted murder.

You are attaching thoughts to acts. Someone saying, “I want to kill that person” is not a hate crime. Trying to kill someone and failing does not make it a hate crime. It makes it a murder attempt. If there is actual use of deadly force that does not kill someone, that is attempted murder.

Do you see the difference now?
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:42PM
mapaghimagsik at 2:21PM, Aug. 27, 2007
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mapaghimagsik
I see the decision was not to read, but to plow on. Okay.

I guess then attempted murder is just assault, and the guy who did the first WTC bombing was just a vandal.


Oh you mean that. Well if someone slaps you, that is simple assault. If someone shoots you, that is attempted murder.

You are attaching thoughts to acts. Someone saying, “I want to kill that person” is not a hate crime. Trying to kill someone and failing does not make it a hate crime. It makes it a murder attempt. If there is actual use of deadly force that does not kill someone, that is attempted murder.

Do you see the difference now?

Ah, but then there's assult with intent to commit murder. Strange how you missed that one.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:51PM
DAJB at 2:26PM, Aug. 27, 2007
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mapaghimagsik
Now the question is, do you know that argument is b.s.? Or do you just feel unentitled somehow?
You know, when you resort to insulting people with ideas different to your own, it really doesn't strengthen your argument at all. In fact it weakens it.

last edited on July 14, 2011 12:03PM
TnTComic at 2:27PM, Aug. 27, 2007
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yeah. I know what you mean.

and the crazy part is that those same people don't get the fact that it's not all about jailing every person who says: “Man, I hate black/gay/whatever”.

it's all to stop harassment, actions that leads to making life difficult for others.

It's one thing to say: “I dislike black/gay/whatever” but it's another thing to constantly call up your next door neighbor who happens to be black/gay/whatever and call him/her all sorts of nasty names and also about how you'd like to fucking kill him/her and do nasty stuff to his/her family.
The first part is just merely an opinion, and the second one is an ACTION which leads to Harassment.
If nothing is done about the Harassment, then the same criminal may be encouraged to try something much more worse than just harassing the said neighbor via phone. Like carrying out his/her threats.

prevention is key, and I've been trying to tell him that over and over. sigh. But I guess when some people just don't want to get it, they won't.

And what about the man who hates in silence, but kills out of his hate? Is he charged, or does he have to go through your hypothetical harassment?

Its not often I come out and say something like this, but you guys are nuts. You want to regulate hate.

YOU WANT TO REGULATE HATE

Do you really understand what you're advocating? The precedence that sets?
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:31PM
mapaghimagsik at 2:36PM, Aug. 27, 2007
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And what about the man who hates in silence, but kills out of his hate? Is he charged, or does he have to go through your hypothetical harassment?

Its not often I come out and say something like this, but you guys are nuts. You want to regulate hate.

YOU WANT TO REGULATE HATE

Do you really understand what you're advocating? The precedence that sets?

Typing in caps doesn't make it so. Nice try though. Have you considered using the formatting buttons at the top of the edit window?

The guy who hates in silence, and kills out of hate is probably just a murderer.

The guy who plots and plans and kills someone to try and make sure that homosexuals know they're not welcome in their town is performing a hate crime in addition to the murder. Why? because they are targeting and terrorizing people outside of the initial victim. If that can be proven in court, then the person should serve additional time.

If the person plans to kill someone, but keeps his/her mouth shut, the chances of it being proven as premeditated go down tremendously. Now you do know why premeditated murder is given a harsher sentence than regular old manslaughter, right?

And what do you mean “its not often I come out and say something like this” You do this once a thread. We've now reached the CAPS portion of the entertainment. I think next is when you get nasty enough the mods say something. You insult the mods, and a mod invites you to leave. The thread gets locked, and sometimes unlocked after someone figures you've relaxed enough.



Can we just pretend we've passed all that? And explain what you think this precedence is? To me, this precedence you're afraid of is that people cannot terrorize people based on their skin color, sex, or sexual orientation.

It also means that in a murder case, a lawyer will have to prove a hate crime, just like treason or premeditated murder. Nothing changes in the legal system, really.

And don't worry, you can still hate on all the people you want – just don't go around trying to drive away these people by doing criminal acts! Or do you think those kind of acts are okay?



last edited on July 14, 2011 1:51PM
TnTComic at 2:46PM, Aug. 27, 2007
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mapaghimagsik
Can we just pretend we've passed all that? And explain what you think this precedence is? To me, this precedence you're afraid of is that people cannot terrorize people based on their skin color, sex, or sexual orientation.

It also means that in a murder case, a lawyer will have to prove a hate crime, just like treason or premeditated murder. Nothing changes in the legal system, really.

And don't worry, you can still hate on all the people you want – just don't go around trying to drive away these people by doing criminal acts! Or do you think those kind of acts are okay?


You can stick your insults and inferences about me straight up your hifalutin ass.
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:31PM
mapaghimagsik at 2:51PM, Aug. 27, 2007
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mapaghimagsik
Can we just pretend we've passed all that? And explain what you think this precedence is? To me, this precedence you're afraid of is that people cannot terrorize people based on their skin color, sex, or sexual orientation.

It also means that in a murder case, a lawyer will have to prove a hate crime, just like treason or premeditated murder. Nothing changes in the legal system, really.

And don't worry, you can still hate on all the people you want – just don't go around trying to drive away these people by doing criminal acts! Or do you think those kind of acts are okay?


You can stick your insults and inferences about me straight up your hifalutin ass.


Awww… Now look what you did. Mods, please don't lock up the thread!
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:51PM
Shar at 2:54PM, Aug. 27, 2007
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I'd say they would be more inclined to tell you to stop with your argumentum ad hominem.
I'm With Shar.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:33PM
TnTComic at 2:54PM, Aug. 27, 2007
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Yeah, its all my fault.

I come out against the notion of a government regulating something as personal as emotions, and you try to say that my motivation is protecting the assholes who perpetrate hate crimes. Yeah, I'm the jerk here.

You didn't goad me at all, its just ol' TNT going off half-cocked again.


You want me to use your technique, as displayed in this thread?

You want hate crime legislation as the beginning steps toward controlling people's thoughts and emotions so that they'll never do anything illegal.

There, does that accurately depict your motivations? No. Of course it doesn't.

edit: i'd love to keep goin' round and round on this, but i've got a hockey game to go to… where the only dude I hate is that Jason Vorhees fucker in front of the cage.
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:31PM
Vindibudd at 2:57PM, Aug. 27, 2007
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Yeah, its all my fault.

I come out against the notion of a government regulating something as personal as emotions, and you try to say that my motivation is protecting the assholes who perpetrate hate crimes. Yeah, I'm the jerk here.

You didn't goad me at all, its just ol' TNT going off half-cocked again.


You want me to use your technique, as displayed in this thread?

You want hate crime legislation as the beginning steps toward controlling people's thoughts and emotions so that they'll never do anything illegal.

There, does that accurately depict your motivations? No. Of course it doesn't.

edit: i'd love to keep goin' round and round on this, but i've got a hockey game to go to… where the only dude I hate is that Jason Vorhees fucker in front of the cage.

I have to say, yeah I agree with TNT here.
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:42PM
Vindibudd at 3:01PM, Aug. 27, 2007
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mapaghimagsik
Ah, but then there's assult with intent to commit murder. Strange how you missed that one.

Yet curiously, this has nothing to do with hating anyone or thing.
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:42PM
ozoneocean at 3:03PM, Aug. 27, 2007
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mapaghimagsik
And what do you mean “its not often I come out and say something like this” You do this once a thread. We've now reached the CAPS portion of the entertainment. I think next is when you get nasty enough the mods say something. You insult the mods, and a mod invites you to leave. The thread gets locked, and sometimes unlocked after someone figures you've relaxed enough.
Uhhh…
TnTComic
You can stick your insults and inferences about me straight up your hifalutin ass.
There it is. :(

TNT, please don't do that :(
Please?

And Shar, that doesn't help either.
———————————————–
This is how we should do things in my opinion-talk about the idea:

Well, as I said in an earlier post, people with less power will always be at a disadvantage in the legal system, even if the laws ostensibly treat everyone equally, the process doesn't. SO drafting laws that put more stress on certain things, like protecting the less powerful (whoever they are) is a good way to try and redress this. I suppose in a way that's what so called “hate crime” legislation actually does. None of this “thought” crap.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:27PM

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