Debate and Discussion

Heaven, do we deserve it?
Ironscarf at 10:31AM, Feb. 11, 2010
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The most likely outcome for any really succesful species is to destroy itself and probably it's envoironment too and we are the most succesful species of all. How long it will take us to achieve this is anyone's guess, but achieve it we will.

Like John Lennon, I'm imagining there's no heaven, but if there was, the question ought not to be “do we deserve heaven?”, but "does heaven deserve us?
As sure as I believe there's a heaven above, Ozone,
I know there's something much more,
Something even non-believers can believe in.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:02PM
Kroatz at 1:02PM, Feb. 11, 2010
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Ok, does heaven deserve us?
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last edited on July 14, 2011 1:23PM
Ironscarf at 2:59PM, Feb. 11, 2010
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Kroatz
Ok, does heaven deserve us?

I already answered that before posing the question. :)
As sure as I believe there's a heaven above, Ozone,
I know there's something much more,
Something even non-believers can believe in.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:02PM
isukun at 2:48AM, Feb. 12, 2010
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The most likely outcome for any really succesful species is to destroy itself and probably it's envoironment too

That's not what defines a successful species and not what happens in the majority of cases. In fact, it usually only occurs in cases of extreme change or when a non-native species is introduced to a new environment. A successful species reaches an equilibrium with their environment, but maintains a large enough population for necessary evolution to occur.

I also don't see us on a path of self destruction. The fact that we recognize the problems and are conscious of what we do and how that negatively effects us and are actively moving towards repairing that damage suggests that we are capable of reaching that equilibrium.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:05PM
Ironscarf at 3:20AM, Feb. 12, 2010
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A successful species reaches an equilibrium with their environment, but maintains a large enough population for necessary evolution to occur.

Any species which reaches an equilibrium with it's envoironment is more likely to adapt uniquely to that envoironment and be under threat when that envoironment changes. Our success is due not to stability, but to our ability to adapt rapidly to a constantly changing envoironment. We're not invincible though.

I also don't see us on a path of self destruction. The fact that we recognize the problems and are conscious of what we do and how that negatively effects us and are actively moving towards repairing that damage suggests that we are capable of reaching that equilibrium.

It depends on how you view the role of conciousness. I would suggest that although we may be able to see the path we're on and it's ultimate outcome, we have no real ability to change our actions as a species. Our ‘actively moving towards repairing the damage’ is never going to be more than a token gesture to make us feel better about ourselves.

As sure as I believe there's a heaven above, Ozone,
I know there's something much more,
Something even non-believers can believe in.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:02PM
isukun at 5:29PM, Feb. 12, 2010
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Any species which reaches an equilibrium with it's envoironment is more likely to adapt uniquely to that envoironment and be under threat when that envoironment changes.

Which is kind of how evolution works. Species adapt to an environment and find a way to adjust to that environment. That's why they reach an equilibrium. If a species just consumes and overexpands, they have a tendency to starve themselves and go extinct, not adapt.

Our ‘actively moving towards repairing the damage’ is never going to be more than a token gesture to make us feel better about ourselves.

And I would say that is a very pessimistic way of looking at humanity which doesn't take into account our history or our present. We've done a lot more in the past and we do a lot more now than just make token gestures for our own sense of self satisfaction. Humanity has made quite a few compromises in the interest of species preservation. I don't see the environmental issues of the modern era as being some rare exception.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:05PM
Ironscarf at 6:31PM, Feb. 12, 2010
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Which is kind of how evolution works. Species adapt to an environment and find a way to adjust to that environment. That's why they reach an equilibrium. If a species just consumes and overexpands, they have a tendency to starve themselves and go extinct, not adapt.

Indeed it does, as far as I'm aware. By adaption I'm referring to the specialisation, whether it be in animals or plants, resulting from their continuimg presence in a largely unchanging envoironment. When that envoironment is threatened they may face extinction, whereas the lack of a stable envoironment has contributed to our success.

And I would say that is a very pessimistic way of looking at humanity which doesn't take into account our history or our present. We've done a lot more in the past and we do a lot more now than just make token gestures for our own sense of self satisfaction. Humanity has made quite a few compromises in the interest of species preservation. I don't see the environmental issues of the modern era as being some rare exception.

Compromises in the interest of our own preservation are of course, part of our adaptability. They are however, a reaction to the envoironmental factors we are confronted with. We simply haven't evolved to adapt to large scale abstract concepts: we may recognise the problems, be concious of our actions and their negative effects, but they are still abstract concepts until they hit us head on and we have no option to be inactive.
Abstract concepts will not change our course in any serious way and any small action we take to allay them will be cancelled out by the negative actions we're taking elsewhere. I wouldn't call that pessimism and I don't view humanity as bad or good; it simply is what it is and I very much enjoy being a part of it, as it hurtles towards its inevitable oblivion.
As sure as I believe there's a heaven above, Ozone,
I know there's something much more,
Something even non-believers can believe in.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:02PM
kyupol at 7:08PM, Feb. 12, 2010
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To me, “heaven” is the state in where your soul has evolved enough that it no longer needs a physical body to exist.

How does it evolve?

It evolves to a higher level every time we do meditation or do an action that is of service to our neighbor. Notice how you feel something good from within everytime you give to a homeless person, help at a charity, help that old lady, build shelter for the poor or the ones who lost their homes in Haiti, etc.

That warm feeling that you feel in your heart area is a stimulation of your heart chakra – the energy center responsible for your ability to love and feel empathy to others.

The more these energy centers get stimulated, the more spiritually developed we become.

Now do we deserve heaven?

In a way, don't you think we all deserve it?

However, the reality is, the way to heaven is a bumpy road.

It is through trial and hardships that our souls are forged.

That is why I don't believe in cop-outs — that take the form of Jesus Christ just coming down to save us all; or the Galactic Federation / Ascended Masters / Pleiadians / Sirians / Andromedans / etc. that the New Agers believe.

There is no savior. The savior is the man/woman staring back at you in the mirror.


Just my two cents on this.
NOW UPDATING!!!
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:26PM
lothar at 3:53PM, Feb. 14, 2010
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sure we deserve heaven , humans are the most powerfull and ruthless of species , and even if we dont deserve it and it goes to the dolphins or the chimpanzees , we can just use our sneaky skills to steal it from them just like we do on Earth !

but, the real question is where do we go after we trash heaven ???
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:45PM
Kroatz at 6:21AM, Feb. 17, 2010
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Lothar
sure we deserve heaven , humans are the most powerfull and ruthless of species , and even if we dont deserve it and it goes to the dolphins or the chimpanzees , we can just use our sneaky skills to steal it from them just like we do on Earth !
but, the real question is where do we go after we trash heaven ???

Is that a metaphor for earth or is that just you being funny?
If it's a metaphor I think we will probably not be ready by the time we destroy earth.

K
Comidion.deviantart.com
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:23PM
CornTown at 6:31PM, Feb. 17, 2010
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If it makes you a better person, I say believe in heaven, Nirvana, a never ending pizza platter in the sky.

In terms of “Do we deserve it” depends upon the individual's beliefs. I truly believe with all my heart that most people are decent and will do whatever they can to help others.

So yes, I do believe that people deserve heaven.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:46AM
RabbitMaster at 6:59PM, March 10, 2010
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I certainly don't, but the blood of Jesus Christ washed away all my sins.

“Perhaps you would care to try your villany on a less defenseless opponent?”–Kung Fu Rabbit
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:57PM
ozoneocean at 8:42PM, March 10, 2010
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RabbitMaster
I certainly don't, but the blood of Jesus Christ washed away all my sins.
This interpretation of Christianity always had me wondering… It seems to say that there's no way not to get in. So that whatever you do it doesn't matter. Although many differ on weather you have to be a believer or not.

Other Christian sects have different views- i.e. that Christ's Sacrifice only washed away “original sin”- the taint carried by all since Adam and Eve partook of the fruit of the tree of knowledge. So that humanity is back to even again on the sinning register, which means that any other sin they commit will be counted, but not the one they were born with.

At least that's the way it come across.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:36PM
Kira Dwenna at 2:58PM, March 15, 2010
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I feel that what we do in this life is more important than what we put aside for the next.

You know you're here, now, and you don't know where you will be when you die - whether it is a ‘heaven’ or a ‘hell’, or an eternity of ‘nothing’ - why not do what you can with the time you have?
Why be a Lesbian if you can't be Serious about it?


“Webcomics should be as fun to write, as they are to draw, as they are to read.”
-Kira
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:16PM

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