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Hell Boy II: The Golden Army
LIZARD_B1TE at 1:11PM, July 20, 2008
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Because that's isukun. He always thinks he's right, and he doesn't care about anyone else's opinion. …You should see how he bashes people over in the Gaming threads. It makes me sick. :dizzy: His avatar fits him perfectly…

I never thought of isuken as a “basher”, just somebody with high standards and a vocal opinion.

This is why this thread is interesting. Isuken and Spang arguing over something with isuken defending it… damn, I don't know whether to see this movie or not. 0_o
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:38PM
Evil Emperor Nick at 7:14AM, July 21, 2008
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I second the defense of Isuken. Maybe I'm just not looking in the right threads but I've Isuken's never came across as a basher to me. I'd say SpANG & me threw down just as much in the Doctor Who thread and I don't think either of us was bashing & I quite enjoyed hearing what SpANG had to say even if I couldn't disagree more. ^_^

I sugges Lizard that you decide what you want. If your looking for a B movie with some decent effects and humor then go see Hellboy. If you are looking for an Ironman or Dark Knight well this isn't that, it isn't even trying to be.

I'd probably be a LOT harsher myself if I read the comics, but I don't so I'm not. You might want to factor that into things when you decide if you want to go or not.


last edited on July 14, 2011 12:23PM
SpANG at 7:39AM, July 21, 2008
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I agree with all your points. I also didn't like that the whole Prince/Princess thing meant that, at the end of the day, the “heroes” weren't even needed and could have just stayed home and pretty much had the same result.
Well, that's another thing that bothered me. If the “Elf King” decreed death to the brother, didn't he condemn his daughter's life as well? She agreed with the King's decision, so why didn't she just stab herself right then and there? Or why didn't the gaurds kill her, in turn killing brother dearest? Why do it at the very end? Oh, yeah. I remember. To drag on a bad plotline.

The whole “Corsican Brothers” angle was ridiculous. More derivative crap. :/
“To a rational mind, nothing is inexplicable. Only unexplained.”
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:53PM
Evil Emperor Nick at 9:13AM, July 21, 2008
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SpANG
Fenn
I agree with all your points. I also didn't like that the whole Prince/Princess thing meant that, at the end of the day, the “heroes” weren't even needed and could have just stayed home and pretty much had the same result.
Well, that's another thing that bothered me. If the “Elf King” decreed death to the brother, didn't he condemn his daughter's life as well? She agreed with the King's decision, so why didn't she just stab herself right then and there? Or why didn't the gaurds kill her, in turn killing brother dearest? Why do it at the very end? Oh, yeah. I remember. To drag on a bad plotline.

The whole “Corsican Brothers” angle was ridiculous. More derivative crap. :/


SpANG I liked the movie and not even I'm going to try and defend the plot.

But lets assume that the Princess just didn't have the guts to kill herself and her dad was a moron. Even so why didn't she just destroy the piece of crown she had with her and make the whole plot moot? I mean clearly it wasn't that hard given how easily the destroyed it at the end of the movie. Further WHY did she look for the map etc. etc. if that meant her brother would know where it was due to their link? There were a lot of head bangers in the plot. Best to just let it go and wait for the Riff Track.

last edited on July 14, 2011 12:23PM
isukun at 9:19PM, July 21, 2008
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SpANG I liked the movie and not even I'm going to try and defend the plot.

But lets assume that the Princess just didn't have the guts to kill herself and her dad was a moron. Even so why didn't she just destroy the piece of crown she had with her and make the whole plot moot? I mean clearly it wasn't that hard given how easily the destroyed it at the end of the movie. Further WHY did she look for the map etc. etc. if that meant her brother would know where it was due to their link? There were a lot of head bangers in the plot. Best to just let it go and wait for the Riff Track.

Actually, the way I read it was:

The princess wanted to find a way to resolve the problem without killing herself and her brother understanding that her brother had the right intentions, but the wrong way of approaching the problem. She probably figured that without the Golden Army behind him, he'd be forced to find a more diplomatic solution. After all, he'd been looking for the damn thing for how many years? Seems if he knew of another way to get to the humans, he would have taken it by now. She went to get the map so that it could be destroyed or so that she could find an alternative method to stopping the Golden Army. In fact, she does destroy what she thinks is the map, not realizing that the actual map is on the outside of the tube. She probably would have done this sooner had Hellboy and Abe not jumped into the middle of things at the Troll Market and then taken her to the bureau. She still does take pretty much the first opportunity she gets to destroy the map, though. I don't think she ever really got an opportunity to destroy her piece of the crown and I doubt she trusted to bureau enough to leave it in their hands.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:04PM
Evil Emperor Nick at 9:26AM, July 22, 2008
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I'd like to agree with you but sadly the movie never makes any of that clear. The movie never implied the prince had been looking for the golden army all that time. It simply said he had been in exile. It seems the bid for the golden army was a recent change as he had only just returned from exile with only one troll side kick. He hadn't exactly raised an army, pulled cast wealth together or anything like that. After all when he first went into exile he knew where all three pieces were and did not go after them till thousands of years later.

The fundimental problem is if she(the princess) wanted to make sure the golden army was never found to the point she was willing to burn the map she should have melted down the crown piece. Gold isn't exactly indestructable, it is soft and melts easily in fact, she would just have to find a decent fire. Given its mechanical nature even just warping the crown probably would had done. Rather then looking for the map, then looking at the map, then burning it at the last moment when her brother by her own admission inevitably finds her & it she should have just melted down the crown piece the moment she ran away. I mean she was at the troll market, she couldn't have find a smith to melt it down into a braclet even if for some reason she couldn't do it herself? Even if for some reason this was a bad things she should have just ripped up the map and thrown away the scroll tube as soon as she got it. Particularly as the troll was dangerously close to getting its metal mit on it. Things were not happening that fast after that she could have stopped and dealt with things post troll. After all Abe had time to fall in love with her, find Hellboy & get smashed while listening to a CD. That gives her at least 3-4 hours she could have used to destroy both the crown & the map.

I can look past that and enjoy the movie but when you analyze the plot I hope you'll admite this seems a little bit like comic book logic to keep things moving.

last edited on July 14, 2011 12:23PM
isukun at 11:28PM, July 23, 2008
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When he first went into exile, he didn't have the skill or manpower to take the crown from the humans and he certainly wouldn't have had the capability of taking his father's piece.

And while you are right that gold is not indestructible (although I'd still hesitate to use actual physical properties of anything when it's part of a magical item, after all, if it is so easy to destroy it, why was it that the king didn't melt it down right from the start instead of splitting it into three pieces?), the princess was also in hiding. Even when she knew exactly where she was going and she was dealing exclusively with someone she could trust, she was still found immediately and followed there. I don't see where she would have had time to find a smith to melt down anything for her since she barely had time to get the map and was only able to get away because Hellboy and Abe showed up. You also have the problem that she can't just throw anything away since her brother has a fairly good chance of finding anything she tosses due to their mental link, so at that point, her only option is to go to the bureau and hope they can protect her.

Once there, the bureau took possession of the map and they were looking over it trying to figure out what to do next. It's not like it was just her and the map for the next four hours.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:04PM
Evil Emperor Nick at 8:00AM, July 24, 2008
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I'll just say that from my experience anyone who's played a few good games of D&D knows how these things go when you have players who are not slaves to comic book thinking & in that case it would have ended in 15 minutes. (At which point in a fit of frustration the GM would have declaired the crown indestructable except when fully assembled so we had to protect it rather then destroy it.) Good GM's fill in their plot holes, so-so ones ask players to go along with them. Hellboy asked up to go along with them rather then exploit them. I just expect tighter writting in a multi-million dollar movie then someone playing a table top game in my basement. Hence my POV on the plot, but if you enjoyed though that is fine. I'll just have to agree to disagree with your particular take on the details. ^_^

last edited on July 14, 2011 12:23PM
jalford at 12:31AM, July 30, 2008
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I didn't understant why they just didn't get rid of the crown pieces to begin with. It's always the same, they've got a weapon of ultimate magical destruction they don't wanna use, so instead of destroying it(provided they can, like its not made of godmetal or something)they just seal it up, or seperate the pieces of it leaving future generations to get horribly raped up the ass by it.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:06PM
Sea_Cow at 11:32AM, July 31, 2008
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Too much Barry Manilow, not enough Rammstein.

The skipping, singing cloud of German smoke almost made up for it, though.




Also, if one goblin built the entire golden army, couldn't he do it again? That makes it much less special.
I am so happy to finally be back home
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:26PM
Evil Emperor Nick at 12:48PM, July 31, 2008
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Too much Barry Manilow, not enough Rammstein.

The skipping, singing cloud of German smoke almost made up for it, though.




Also, if one goblin built the entire golden army, couldn't he do it again? That makes it much less special.


I think after you get your legs burnt off and go from being the king of goblins to a scrap collector all because you made A Golden Army once that has been a curse upon the land ever since you probably wouldn't be doing that again anytime soon.

last edited on July 14, 2011 12:23PM
isukun at 12:56PM, July 31, 2008
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I don't know, that sounds like some pretty powerful incentive to me. Ruin my life like that, you better believe I'd build a few immortal mechas to lay some smack down.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:04PM
jalford at 3:37AM, Aug. 2, 2008
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For once, it isn't the dwarves who are the tech-savvy magical race.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:06PM
Sea_Cow at 4:18PM, Aug. 2, 2008
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jalford
For once, it isn't the dwarves who are the tech-savvy magical race.

They're called Little People now.
I am so happy to finally be back home
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:26PM
jalford at 3:31AM, Aug. 3, 2008
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No, those are the former “mans world” dwarves. The magic-types are still called dwarves. If your a short dude in a pointy hat working in a mind all day and having sex with half-dead princesses, then you might be a dwarf.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:06PM

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