Debate and Discussion

Hey, I found the Holy Grail...now what?
PhatScurl at 1:35PM, April 27, 2007
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I had one of those conversations that just slowly evolved into several things.
First the free masons, then the templars, and finally the holy grail.

Now, as we all know or should, the legend goes that the Free Masons hold the secret to the location of the Holy Grail. For those of you unfamiliar with the history of the Holy Grail, it was essentially the cup that Jesus drank out of at the last supper. It was supposedly uncovered at some point and given to the pope but has since vanished.

The search for the Holy Grail has been one of the largest religious expeditions, and continues to this very day. It has spawned books, and Indiana Jones movie, and a book by Dan Brown that gone blown way overboard. But I find fault with this whole thing.

WHAT'S THE FREAKING POINT?!

Okay, so this is a cup that Jesus drank out of nearly 2000 years ago, just a regular cup, not some sacred gift given to us by him (though what was in it when they drank was). The fact is though we can't, and probably never will be able to, differentiate the holy grail from any other cup from that period. It's not like we have Jesus's DNA or fingerprints to compare. Plus, even we did find it and prove it to be as such, it would mean absolutely nothing other than that we found a cup that a man named Jesus drank out of.

Okay, so awesome we have a really cheap cup that had been given a gold coating and jewels, but…religiously, it has no more significance than a cup that was drunken out of by my friends at lunch.

We can't prove anything Jesus' said
We can't prove any of his miracles
and We can't prove that he rose from the dead

So in the end all you have is a cup that a guy named Jesus drank out of, and that's only if you can prove it. Nobody's faith is built, and the millions of aethiests and agnostic will still be just that. It proves nothing.

Why does the religious community think that this would be such an incredible relgious find so much that millions of dollars have been spent looking for it.

Why can't we go after something that could truly shake the religious world, let's go find the freaking Ark of the Covenant! (yes i realize we have been, but we could double our efforts by forgetting about the grail) That would be an incredible discovery, for goodness sakes if you touch it your supposed to shocked by electricity straight from God, kind of hard to deny evidence like that.

Also (taking the concept of one of Ted Dekker's books) let's say that the old covenant is no more and we can touch the ark, open it and see what's inside. What you got then is solid evidence. Piece the stones together (long process, but it has been done) and what you have are two solid slates containing the laws of God. It's not gonna convince everybody, but would something like that not make even the most anti-religious person go “well…maybe”, if you managed to do that you've done more than any person (with the exception of Jesus) before you.

Basically what im trying to say is, why are we wasting so much time on that pointless discovery when their are so many more subjects in the bible, that if proven, could shake the entire world, and not just the religious ones. If we're searching for the cup, we might as well find the matching plates.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:43PM
snark at 7:56PM, April 27, 2007
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A vero good argument, and for the most part I agree with you.

Though, your emphasis on the need for scientific evidence probably isn't shared by the devout religious community.

I myself am not religious, though most of my family are as well as a good deal of my friends, and to them, proof was never really required for belief. Since you seem to be talking primarily about Christians, I'll keep to that topic as well, and if memory serves me right, part of Christian teaching is that God is Truth. Therefore all things associated with God are thusly true as well, proof is not required.

In all honesty I don't think I can quite describe this correctly, as said before I'm not part of any religion and this is more of an unspoken understanding amongst the devout.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:49PM
subcultured at 8:02PM, April 27, 2007
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science an religion don't get along just like the theory of relativity and quantum mechanics
J
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:02PM
Hijuda at 9:05PM, April 27, 2007
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I didn't know that people were actually bothering to look for that… Meh, maybe people just have too much money.

Or bad Discovery Channel documentaries really rake in the dough.
It's a comic!

LOLOL LAMFAO
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:48PM
subcultured at 9:06PM, April 27, 2007
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or maybe they try so hard to prove that the stories in the bible is real that they'll take anything that resembles it
J
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:02PM
reconjsh at 9:09AM, April 28, 2007
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The Freemasons have stolen history and legend from all sorts of different cultures to add to their mystique. A lot of what they actually claim has been directly robbed from specific traditions from the gambit of histories. And there's a lot more that people suggest about the masons that they don't deny because it adds to that mystique. Ultimately, it comes down to contrived power for them to attract members. The Holy Grail is just one more example of this.

The truth is… though it doesn't make for very good novels, the masons are a bunch of old dudes playing cards and filling retirement with some sense of commradery.


An interesting side piece of trivia for you guys: Catholics who are active participants in Freemasonry are considered to be in a state of grave sin (assuming they meet the other criteria for grave sin). Basically, you can not be a Catholic AND a Freemason. You got to practice with the team to be on it… and these 2 teams practice two different things, if you know what I mean.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:02PM
ozoneocean at 9:36AM, April 28, 2007
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reconjsh
and these 2 teams practice two different things, if you know what I mean.
Sodomy? lol!
non. no, no, no, just joking ^_^

The Holy Grail is what is known as a “relic”, like the “True Cross” it is one of the holiest relics in Christendom. It's not famous for what it is, so much as for the fact Jesus (who is ostensibly God come down to earth in human form) drank from it at the last supper before he went on to sacrifice himself for “our” sins and then ascend to heaven… after all that resurrection stuff…

And it's also famous for being in those stories as well: The great Arthurian romances.

Now it's important to realise that even though many people believe the mythology of the bible to be real, no smart person believes the grail stories from the Arthurian legends to be real! Even if King Arthur was a real person, those stories were written by French authors centuries after the character was mean to have existed. They're nothing more than heroic romances, all the crap with Lancelot and all the rest of it are just creative licence.

I'm sure some of the crusaders looked for the grail when they went on to invade the holy lands, just like they looked for the True Cross and any other relic they could think of, but most the the ideas of people looking for the grail specifically seem to come form those French stories about Arthur.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:26PM
reconjsh at 4:20PM, April 28, 2007
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Really funny Double O. =P

Anyways, if I recall the History Channel correctly… wasn't the concept of “the holy grail” created somewhere in the 10th - 13th centuries or some where around there? I don't remember exactly (and don't feel like going to Google at the moment)

The point is that it seems to me that it's less of a “lost relic” and more of a "hey, it seems like this thing should exist… and if it does, it'd be a pretty nice relic, right?“ And then the idea became ”real" and a legend was then born in mythology. And of course, the rest is… well… “history”.

Seems like another straw to grasp at while trying to validate a faith that should be intrinsic… but people simply lack the insight to rely on such.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:02PM
subcultured at 5:45PM, April 28, 2007
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seems like an excuse for the genocide of people of different religions (i.e. WMD's)
J
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:02PM
Hijuda at 8:13AM, April 29, 2007
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subcultured
seems like an excuse for the genocide of people of different religions (i.e. WMD's)

I'll get the nukes!
It's a comic!

LOLOL LAMFAO
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:48PM
LIZARD_B1TE at 9:43AM, April 29, 2007
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I'm going to write a story where the grail, which, since Jesus was poor, is wooden, rotted away many years ago, just for laughs.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:37PM
Vagabond at 12:24PM, April 29, 2007
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I wanna say I watched a movie about the Holy Grail one year in school. It said something about some nunnery having a piece of it that they use to bless stuff. It was… beyond nutty.

I mean, really; it's just interesting Christian mythology. Right up there with the “Spear of Destiny” (aka, Longinus's spear) and that other hooplah. There isn't a word about that stuff in the Bible, so I really don't consider it to be something that I even have to debate believing in.

(PS: The whole “can't play on 2 teams” is because the first tenet of Freemasonery is that you have to put the lodge above all things. This comes in direct conflict with the 1st Commandment.

This also explains why they want to sacrifice me on their alters in the Washington Masonic Temple. :( )
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:38PM
ozoneocean at 1:33PM, April 29, 2007
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While these “relics” might have only gained significance during the crusades when credulous religious zealots where going off and invading the entire middle east, that doesn't mean they were simply made up then. ;)

They were based on things in the bible. The “true” cross was of course the cross Jesus was supposed to have hung from, the grail was meant to have been Jesus's wine cup. The spear I suppose was mean t to have been the one that pierced his side. But anything they could think of to connect with their saviour was good enough: nails from the cross, his shroud, whatever.

I suppose it made the idea of their belief more real to them if they had tangible items to connect them with the historical “godly” figure. Much like the way people buy celebrity memorabilia these days… Or something like Napoleon's hat.

You have to remember too that around the time of the first millennium and for 2 or 3 hundred years after there was a lot of Christian hysteria… all these idiot prophecies of a second coming and the like. It carried on to other things like the crusades and relic hunting.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:26PM
ccs1989 at 2:02PM, April 29, 2007
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Hardcore religious people don't like to let little things like “logic” or “reason” get in the way of them persuing things that will attract other “believers”. I can understand going to God if your life is really screwed up or if you want to believe in life after death, but the idea of taking everything in the Bible literally and putting so much effort into this kind of idiocy is just ridiculous. For example that new Creationist museum that just opened up that shows dinosaurs next to men and says that they existed at the same time when God created Earth 6000 years ago. Rubbish! It's a waste of resouces, time, and of course money.

The whole idea of the Holy Grail is just a way to somehow gain a connection with something that people think exists. They see it as a kind of “proof” to attract believers.
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“If one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours.”
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last edited on July 14, 2011 11:38AM
Ronson at 4:27AM, April 30, 2007
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I don't disagree with the ridiculousness of it all, but just wanted to add that the Dan Brown book was based on real historical research that claims that the “Holy Grail” was created only because of a poor translation of “Holy Blood” into English (I think it was English). The “Holy Blood” that was being guarded was supposedly Jesus' descendents (it was theorized that Jesus married Mary Magdeline and they had children, and those children had children, and so on).

The proof for this is pretty darn slim, as the actual existence of Jesus in the first place is debateable (see “The God Who Wasn't There” if you want to open yourself up to alternate theories on Bible stories…again, it isn't conclusive, just interesting).

What isn't denied by anyone who knows the history of the Catholic Church is that the New Testament was cobbled together many centuries later, and they only used texts that supported their version of events. Texts with differing points of view or different messages were dropped, as were any that referenced Jesus' wife or children.

Thus you hear of the lost books of Mary Magdeline or Judas. Though I do believe those are only theorized and there's no proof that they exist anywhere.

Religion is fun stuff if you don't pick a side. :)
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:10PM
subcultured at 6:54AM, April 30, 2007
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money. it all comes down to money.

I saw this one documentary about a white supremacist leader who sells white supremacy shirts/music/movies/posters/coffee mugs and became a millionaire. He was showing his mansion and his pool while he talked about how the other races keep the white man down.

now i see so called “creationists” who sells, videos/orientation/museums/newspapers/books/. they make lots of money, even a so called dentists who turned into a creationist scientist (who is thier leading “scientist” ) is a millionaire.

then i see my church, every 2 months they get a special priest to make the flock feel guilty and contribute more money. they even took the better part of the mass having an archetic up there go through the floorplan of what the future church would look like. My church is not crumbling, mind you. besides, jesus did not need a fancy church to enlighten people's souls.

money, green eyed monster. they tax your soul with guilt.

J
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:02PM
Hawk at 9:50AM, April 30, 2007
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I think it's all about distraction and superstition. Early Christians were simply obsessed with Christ-related items, and of course that included the Grail, the Shroud of Turin, the Spear of Destiny, and virtually anything they could connect with Christ… whatever they could find to distract them from his actual teachings.

But it wasn't just Christ, often times cathedrals would try to have items connected with their patron saint on display, sometimes even parts of the saints' remains! I guess from a collector's standpoint you can kind of see why they'd want all these supposedly holy objects. It's silly though, because you could surround yourself with object Jesus supposedly touched or handled and it still wouldn't mean anything salvation-wise.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:45PM
subcultured at 10:04AM, April 30, 2007
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people have made something good and twisted it into pokemon. gotta catch them all!

Respect people, do good in life, be a good niegbor, be a good person, allow yourself to grow physically and psychology and throw away all the stupid babbles that prevents you from doing that. Stop putting lines across everything. think outside the box.

the idea of any religion is fundamentally good. it's just that people that get appointed in power gets stupid and corrupt.

“hey everyone! Jesus says thou shall not kill, but you know you can kill for me because Jesus never liked the jews/muslims/gays…or anyone different from us”


J
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:02PM
mlai at 1:06PM, April 30, 2007
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The Holy Grail is the ultimate WMD. It caught the blood of Jesus as he died for our sins on the cross. Therefore it contains all of the evil of humanity. It must never be discovered.

FIGHT current chapter: Filling In The Gaps
FIGHT_2 current chapter: Light Years of Gold
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:05PM
Alexis at 8:20PM, April 30, 2007
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I think the holy grail plays an important role in American mythology because it was more or less an English invention. While Jesus does drink, assumably from a grail, at the lst supper in the bible, no real signifigance is placed on the cup. When christianity made it's way to England the legend grew from the desire to find a place in christian legend for the English people, and the tradition in ancient English culture of having sacred and magical vessles, cauldrons and cups and the like. The grail was not considered especially important until paople began to tell tales of Arthur questing for it. It was also key in the story that Joseph of Aremethea brought the grail to English soil, effectivly writing England into the bible. There are people who calim that the grail was found years ago, by the way. There was a blue glass bowl, forged in Jerusalem and found on Glastonbury Tor that some optomistic people say must be the grail. It resides in a museum now.
last edited on July 14, 2011 10:49AM
Aurora Moon at 8:31PM, April 30, 2007
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mlai
The Holy Grail is the ultimate WMD. It caught the blood of Jesus as he died for our sins on the cross. Therefore it contains all of the evil of humanity. It must never be discovered.


lol I love how the roman in the piture is like kneeling and unable to dedice whenever he should stab jesus some more or to worship him.
I'm on hitatus while I redo one of my webcomics. Be sure to check it out when I'n done! :)
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:10AM
Zenstrive at 10:17PM, April 30, 2007
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It's just another gas in the inflated faith system
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:55PM
marine at 2:39AM, May 1, 2007
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LOL @ CONSPIRACY THEORIES ON THE INTERNET
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Roguehill at 12:13PM, May 2, 2007
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Vagabond
(PS: The whole “can't play on 2 teams” is because the first tenet of Freemasonery is that you have to put the lodge above all things. This comes in direct conflict with the 1st Commandment.

This also explains why they want to sacrifice me on their alters in the Washington Masonic Temple. :( )

Hmm. I've been a Master Mason for about 5 years now and I don't recall sacrificing anyone…..) I'd love to see the Washington Masonic Temple, though….nifty!

Having taken the vows, I can say that there's nothing that says that the lodge is above all things. In fact, there are many who believe that the first Lodges in England formed as a direct response to the religious pursecutions being performed by the Catholics and Protestants every time the King or Queen changed their faith. It was a place where intellectuals could meet to discuss things without the particulars of religious faith coming into play. To become a Mason, you must profess a belief in God, but asking how you believe is pretty much prohibited.

GHOST ZERO
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:09PM

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