Debate and Discussion

Homeless war veterans
Ronson at 7:40PM, Nov. 17, 2007
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horseboy
Well, the national parks would be dissolved. The land given back to the descendants of those from whom the land was taken. As for the rest of it, just because I don't think the FEDERAL government shouldn't do it, doesn't mean I don't think the STATE government shouldn't either. The State is far more easily held accountable than the faceless federal bureaucracy. Therefore it gets slightly more power.

The land given back? To whom? The Native Americans? The Mayan civilization? What if there really isn't a decisive owner? Plus, what about the citizen's of this country? Isn't it a great boon to us to have natural reserves to visit relatively cheaply to enjoy nature?

I sort of agree with you about state's getting more power though. It helps create unique cultures within our nation, and diversity helps everything, I think.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:10PM
Ronson at 7:50PM, Nov. 17, 2007
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Mister Mxyzptlk
Exactly what was done before the 20th century. Parents organized schools or taught their children at home.

And the problem with that is that many parents are working full time jobs. Many parents can't teach the high level maths and sciences that are expected of our high school students. Many don't care.

And I understand that parents have to be responsible for their children. But I also understand that children should not be punished for the ignorance of their parents.

last edited on July 14, 2011 3:10PM
horseboy at 10:03PM, Nov. 17, 2007
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Ronson
horseboy
Well, the national parks would be dissolved. The land given back to the descendants of those from whom the land was taken. As for the rest of it, just because I don't think the FEDERAL government shouldn't do it, doesn't mean I don't think the STATE government shouldn't either. The State is far more easily held accountable than the faceless federal bureaucracy. Therefore it gets slightly more power.

The land given back? To whom? The Native Americans? The Mayan civilization? What if there really isn't a decisive owner? Plus, what about the citizen's of this country? Isn't it a great boon to us to have natural reserves to visit relatively cheaply to enjoy nature?

I sort of agree with you about state's getting more power though. It helps create unique cultures within our nation, and diversity helps everything, I think.
I'm certainly not opposed to giving it back to the tribes, where appropriate, however, a lot of that land was taken from existing land owners, kicked out to make a park. It's a very sore subject around here (in the Mark Twain forest)
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Never seek for happiness, it will merely allude the seeker. Never strive for knowledge, it is beyond man's scope. Never think, for in though lies all the ills of mankind. The wise man, like the rat, the crocodile, the fly, merely fulfills his natural function.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:50PM
Poke Alster at 5:24AM, Nov. 18, 2007
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Just give it back to the person who had it first GOD
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:46PM
Mister Mxyzptlk at 8:04AM, Nov. 18, 2007
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Ronson
And the problem with that is that many parents are working full time jobs.

Because the tax burden is so high. Drop the tax rates and then one income will suffice.

Ronson
Many parents can't teach the high level maths and sciences that are expected of our high school students. Many don't care.

Many teachers are failing to teach the math and science that we would like students to learn. Many teachers don't care. But they have a union that protects them. Maybe the parents need a union…

Ronson
But I also understand that children should not be punished for the ignorance of their parents.

Children are already being punished for their parents ignorance. When the schools fail ignorant parents don't notice and the kids suffer.
My soul was removed to make room for all this sarcasm.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:04PM
TnTComic at 10:19AM, Nov. 18, 2007
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Ronson
You obviously don't understand. You have a very naive view of what our soldiers go through. I suggest you do some research about it.

I'm not the one with the heavy case of hero worship.

Poke Alster
Just give it back to the person who had it first GOD

Please tell me why I should change my opinion: that is insane.
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:31PM
bobhhh at 11:59AM, Nov. 18, 2007
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TnTComic
I'm not the one with the heavy case of hero worship.

Yes you are so wise because you don't believe that somebody who makes the ultimate sacrifice of life and limb deserves any more consideration than folks like me or you who do nothing to keep our country safe.

I'm sorry I'm naive enough to consider people like soldiers, firemen and EMT's heroes. People like us are good at complaing about life, people like them are good at protecting it.
My name is Bob and I approved this signature.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:29AM
TnTComic at 1:12PM, Nov. 18, 2007
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bobhhh
I'm sorry I'm naive enough to consider people like soldiers, firemen and EMT's heroes.


Apology accepted.
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:31PM
Hawk at 2:32PM, Nov. 18, 2007
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I'm with Bob on this, TnTComic. Surely somebody like you who doesn't believe in God and heaven would understand what a big deal it is to risk and/or sacrifice your life for the good of other people.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:46PM
Phantom Penguin at 2:43PM, Nov. 18, 2007
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TnTComic
You know what… I've known plenty of WWII vets in my life, and my experience with them makes me pretty irritated at the craaaaazy Vietnam vets that get all the pub. Shut up and get on with your lives. Its strange that the kids of the WWII guys who I hold in such high esteem turned out to be so different from them.


Because not all vets are the same! ‘Nam vets are pissed because they are almost entirly forgotten about (much like me and my comrades will be i’m sure) because they were part of a war that the US lost. 'Nam vets had to go home to people spitting on them and call them baby killers and were never thanked for their service. WW2 veterans went home to parades and kisses from pretty girls.

How the hell are you going to tell a vet to “shut up and move on” How the fuck are you, a person who is sitting in a chair, never have had to do HALF the damn things they had to do in a single damn day. Its something that stays with you FOREVER, every single hour of every day. You never shut up and move on.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:42PM
TnTComic at 2:49PM, Nov. 18, 2007
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Phantom Penguin
'Nam vets are pissed because they are almost entirly forgotten about (much like me and my comrades will be i'm sure) because they were part of a war that the US lost. 'Nam vets had to go home to people spitting on them and call them baby killers and were never thanked for their service. WW2 veterans went home to parades and kisses from pretty girls.

Oh please, that's bullshit on its face. Are they forgotten about or are they hated? Make up your mind.

Phantom Penguin
How the hell are you going to tell a vet to “shut up and move on” How the fuck are you, a person who is sitting in a chair, never have had to do HALF the damn things they had to do in a single damn day. Its something that stays with you FOREVER, every single hour of every day. You ever shut up and move on.

Whatever you say, ace. Millions of 'em moved on after WWII.
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:31PM
Phantom Penguin at 3:04PM, Nov. 18, 2007
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Oh yeah, the spitting and the name callings never happened, I forgot I must be misinformed. Please tell me what really did happen? It all must have ended nice and good.

WW2= Nazis are bad, kill them, this is what they wear.

'Nam = Commies are bad. For no real reason go and attack them. We don't know what they look like just kill everyone.

Iraq = Don't bother looking at the facts Iraq totally aided the 9/11 folks, oh yeah they have nukes to.


If you think you can go off to war and kill people, get shot at, get wounded, watch your friends die, and then come back and “get over it” as you so brilliantly put it. you my friend are beyond stupid.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:42PM
TnTComic at 3:14PM, Nov. 18, 2007
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Phantom Penguin
If you think you can go off to war and kill people, get shot at, get wounded, watch your friends die, and then come back and “get over it” as you so brilliantly put it. you my friend are beyond stupid.

I'm not the one ignoring the clear difference between WWII vets and Nam vets.
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:31PM
bobhhh at 4:41PM, Nov. 18, 2007
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TnTComic
Phantom Penguin
If you think you can go off to war and kill people, get shot at, get wounded, watch your friends die, and then come back and “get over it” as you so brilliantly put it. you my friend are beyond stupid.

I'm not the one ignoring the clear difference between WWII vets and Nam vets.

Smugness is not a virtue, you know. To make blanket condemnations about a whole group of veterans, because you know some WW2 vets who seem happy is naive at best and dangerously stupid at worst.
My name is Bob and I approved this signature.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:29AM
Ronson at 4:52PM, Nov. 18, 2007
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My point isn't hero worship. It's about fair market value.

Right now, the government is able to buy soldiers who will sacrifice their lives very cheaply. The fact that a soldier may or may not know their actual market value is something that the government takes advantage of.

Someone usually joins the army for training and to improve their lot in life. It's a steady paycheck, and it is an honorable profession in the eyes of our society.

But the downside is that you could end up dead or greviously wounded, thus putting your future in doubt.

Now, if you discount the possibility of grevious harm or death, a soldier's lifetime income is usually pretty respectable. But not anything like a lot of professional careers that include equitable amounts of training and expertise. Even without the death and injury, a soldier's pay is not equal to fair market value. Don't believe me? See what the private market charges for similar services.

If you then add the death and injury risk to a professional soldier, it becomes obvious that the government is practically stealing from these guys!

By getting such a cheap fighting force, the government puts them in places they shouldn't. If it weren't so affordable, we might instead become a part of the world of diplomacy instead of constantly bullying our way - and fighting for the desires of the corporate sector.

So it isn't hero worship. It's just fairness.


last edited on July 14, 2011 3:10PM
Ronson at 4:53PM, Nov. 18, 2007
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Mister Mxyzptlk
Ronson
And the problem with that is that many parents are working full time jobs.

Because the tax burden is so high. Drop the tax rates and then one income will suffice.

Ronson
Many parents can't teach the high level maths and sciences that are expected of our high school students. Many don't care.

Many teachers are failing to teach the math and science that we would like students to learn. Many teachers don't care. But they have a union that protects them. Maybe the parents need a union…

Ronson
But I also understand that children should not be punished for the ignorance of their parents.

Children are already being punished for their parents ignorance. When the schools fail ignorant parents don't notice and the kids suffer.

I am willing to argue against the libertarian viewpoint if you would like (which is 100% selfish and blindly pro-corporate), but we should probably save it for a separate thread.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:10PM
bobhhh at 4:58PM, Nov. 18, 2007
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TnTComic
Phantom Penguin
'Nam vets are pissed because they are almost entirly forgotten about (much like me and my comrades will be i'm sure) because they were part of a war that the US lost. 'Nam vets had to go home to people spitting on them and call them baby killers and were never thanked for their service. WW2 veterans went home to parades and kisses from pretty girls.

Oh please, that's bullshit on its face. Are they forgotten about or are they hated? Make up your mind.




How old are you?? I am old enough to have actually seen VietNam vets spit on and called a lot worse than baby killer. And don't play semantics, you can vilified, and then shoved aside and forgotten. The two are not mutually exclusive.

Before you start spouting nonsense, why not check your facts.

TnTComic
Phantom Penguin
How the hell are you going to tell a vet to “shut up and move on” How the fuck are you, a person who is sitting in a chair, never have had to do HALF the damn things they had to do in a single damn day. Its something that stays with you FOREVER, every single hour of every day. You ever shut up and move on.

Whatever you say, ace. Millions of 'em moved on after WWII.

Yeah and some WW2 vets suffered in silence, but most felt embraced by the public on their return and were able to deal with their experience.

Of course since you deny Viet Nam vets were vilified and systematically misdiagnosed for both physical and mental ailments, then it's no surprise you don't give a rat's ass for their plight.

Hey, I have a holocaust denial theory you might want to invest in.
My name is Bob and I approved this signature.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:29AM
TnTComic at 5:05PM, Nov. 18, 2007
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Blah blah blah blah blah.
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:31PM
bobhhh at 5:23PM, Nov. 18, 2007
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TnTComic
Blah blah blah blah blah.

That's the most lucid argument you have put forth so far on this issue.
My name is Bob and I approved this signature.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:29AM
TnTComic at 5:45PM, Nov. 18, 2007
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It seemed appropriate :)
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:31PM
Mister Mxyzptlk at 11:26AM, Nov. 20, 2007
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Hawk
Surely somebody like you who doesn't believe in God and heaven would understand what a big deal it is to risk and/or sacrifice your life for the good of other people.

You know what's funny. I spent my time in the Army and I have known many other military people. Most agree that all this “Thank you for your service” and “thank you for protecting our freedom” hero worship is bullpucky. It was a job. A job we were paid for and received reasonable benefits for our service. Most of us understand that we did far more to advance to political and foreign policy agenda of the government and the multinational corporations than protect your “freedom” and other crap like that. Hell, we watch as civilians vote away their freedom left and right so we never got why you all thank us for “saving” what you all give away.

I have an equal amount of scorn for worshiping EMT's, firemen and cops for their work. They get better paychecks than we ever got and the bennie package kicks ass over what we got. Heroes? Not by any rational use of the word. Heroes are people who do amazing things without training, equipment and backup.
My soul was removed to make room for all this sarcasm.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:04PM
Mister Mxyzptlk at 11:29AM, Nov. 20, 2007
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Ronson
blindly pro-corporate

Unlike the Democrats and Republicans who keep their eyes open while sucking corporate schlong? I suppose that's better, it makes them seem like they enjoy it more.
My soul was removed to make room for all this sarcasm.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:04PM
Ronson at 4:05AM, Nov. 21, 2007
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Mister Mxyzptlk
Ronson
blindly pro-corporate

Unlike the Democrats and Republicans who keep their eyes open while sucking corporate schlong? I suppose that's better, it makes them seem like they enjoy it more.

Well, you may admire Dems and Repubs more than Libertarians, but I personally find all three lacking in common sense.

Feel free to start a Libertarian discussion site. I'll debate with you, if you'd like.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:10PM
bobhhh at 11:05AM, Nov. 21, 2007
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Mister Mxyzptlk
Hawk
Surely somebody like you who doesn't believe in God and heaven would understand what a big deal it is to risk and/or sacrifice your life for the good of other people.

You know what's funny. I spent my time in the Army and I have known many other military people. Most agree that all this “Thank you for your service” and “thank you for protecting our freedom” hero worship is bullpucky. It was a job. A job we were paid for and received reasonable benefits for our service. Most of us understand that we did far more to advance to political and foreign policy agenda of the government and the multinational corporations than protect your “freedom” and other crap like that. Hell, we watch as civilians vote away their freedom left and right so we never got why you all thank us for “saving” what you all give away.

I have an equal amount of scorn for worshiping EMT's, firemen and cops for their work. They get better paychecks than we ever got and the bennie package kicks ass over what we got. Heroes? Not by any rational use of the word. Heroes are people who do amazing things without training, equipment and backup.

That soldiers are humble about their bravery doesn't mean they aren't heroes.

BTW where were you when they issuing this humility to the troops?? ;)
My name is Bob and I approved this signature.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:29AM
Mister Mxyzptlk at 12:22PM, Nov. 21, 2007
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bobhhh
That soldiers are humble about their bravery doesn't mean they aren't heroes.

Heroes for doing what? Being 18 and thinking you were immortal? Signing up because the odds of getting killed overseas were lower than the odds of dying from a mix of boredom or crushing poverty in your home town? Staying in because AWOL and desertion pack some REAL serious consequences?

Kids don't join the Army for dreams of glory, they join for three hots and a cot with bennies. They join because the idea of working at the same jobs that their parents work at scares them more than enemy bullets. They join because it looks easier than the other options before them.

I never met a guy who signed his name on the dotted line for any of those horse hockey reasons we hear on FAUX News. We all were dead broke without opportunities so we figured “what the heck, better than workin' at the quicky mart for minimum wage”.

Besides, like Zoe says, heroes get other people killed.
My soul was removed to make room for all this sarcasm.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:04PM
Hawk at 1:30PM, Nov. 21, 2007
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It's amazing that every single person who ever joined the armed forces had the same exact motives for doing it. I didn't know this. Thanks for giving us the inside information, Mister Mxyzptlk.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:46PM
dueeast at 1:52PM, Nov. 21, 2007
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Especially when TIME Magazine, CBS News, and countless other media organizations reported on all those men and women who enlisted or re-enlisted just in response to 9-11-01 and to defend their country from the terrorist threat (and get Osama Bin Laden and Al Qaeda).

There are generations of military family, too. Men and women proud to follow in the traditions of their parents, grandparents, etc.

Blanket statements + obvious bias = no credibility.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:17PM
Mister Mxyzptlk at 3:24PM, Nov. 21, 2007
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dueeast
all those men and women who enlisted or re-enlisted just in response to 9-11-01 and to defend their country from the terrorist threat

Hear that drumbeat! Ah yes, the marching legions of the young and foolish being hornswaggled into dying for their corporate lords and masters! Gotta love the media, they sure do shovel the bull crap deep and wide to keep the enlistment roles filled.

Why don't you join up and come back after your tour is up and tell us how many in your basic training company were good patriotic kids from high society families and how many were kids from the wrong side of the tracks who didn't even know their state was part of the Union…

My soul was removed to make room for all this sarcasm.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:04PM
Mister Mxyzptlk at 3:31PM, Nov. 21, 2007
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Hawk
It's amazing that every single person who ever joined the armed forces had the same exact motives for doing it.

I listed several reasons why kids join up and I said none that I ever met (which were quite a few) signed up for love of country. Sure there could be a few who did, but I never met a one of them in all my years. Well, except for the air force guy who joined up to be a missile man so he could nuke some commies. But that wasn't as much patriotism as blind hatred…

How many recruitment centers are around Yale or Harvard? Look how many are situated in the ghettos and the cheep strip malls… The Army knows from where it shall gain the most for its efforts. The poor and undereducated swell the ranks of the military. The wealthy have better things to do with their time, like make billions off the blood of those poor bastards they send across the world.
My soul was removed to make room for all this sarcasm.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:04PM
dueeast at 3:52PM, Nov. 21, 2007
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I got operated on too much as a kid for eye problems and prevention of colon cancer, so I wasn't able to sign up even if I hadn't been the college-bound geek that I was. My wife did serve in the Army, and two of my best friends did more than 1 tour. I have heard firsthand accounts of the sometimes good and often bad.

Personally, I don't doubt that the poor are actively recruited; that doesn't surprise me at all. I just didn't like the generalizations and blanket statements.

And I don't see the media doing the military any favors these days, usually quite the opposite. But maybe that's just my perceptions… :)

Mister Mxyzptlk
dueeast
all those men and women who enlisted or re-enlisted just in response to 9-11-01 and to defend their country from the terrorist threat

Hear that drumbeat! Ah yes, the marching legions of the young and foolish being hornswaggled into dying for their corporate lords and masters! Gotta love the media, they sure do shovel the bull crap deep and wide to keep the enlistment roles filled.

Why don't you join up and come back after your tour is up and tell us how many in your basic training company were good patriotic kids from high society families and how many were kids from the wrong side of the tracks who didn't even know their state was part of the Union…
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:17PM

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