Debate and Discussion

I have had it with these motherf---ing Xmas Freaks at this motherf---ing joyous time of year!
jalford at 12:32AM, Dec. 17, 2006
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Anybody just a little sick of everybody shoving Xmas up our asses every damn year? It used to be that Xmas came and went every year after Thanksfornothing. But now, it's like it's starting around just after Labor Day. The continuous radio stations that play nothing but Xmas music 24/7. The insistence from society that we buy stuff for people in our family we never see and can't stand. Not to mention all the Xmas Freaks who demand that retailers like Wal-Mart go back to saying “Merry Xmas” instead of the more non-denominational “Happy Holiday”. I'm probably the only one who still likes a simple “Season's Greetings”, the best part of which is you can say it anytime of year cause it's always a season sometime.

But man, some of these Xmas Freaks(that's what I'm calling people of a certain faith)just keep impaling people with their traditions every freaking' year, and it just seems to get more & more outta control! They need to sit back and realize that not everyone shares in their religion/faith/traditions, and would soon rather be left the hell alone to watch some Simpsons reruns. But you can't even do that, because they put an entire TV Guide book's worth of Xmas shows & movies on everyday in December. I find it weird that they save the good ones like the Grinch or Charlie Brown specials for Thanksfornothing weekend, while through the following month they rerun that crappy Rudolph CGI special about 4000 times.

The only good thing that seems worth giving a damn for this holiday season…Black Christmas. I just wanna see a good slasher flick, even though it'll probably stink. So stop getting Jesus' birthday wrong(He was born in the summertime!), and let everyone else make up their own minds about whether they want to join in your f—ing reindeer games or not, Xmas Freaks.

Oh, and Happy Kwanzaa…whatever the hell that is.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:06PM
mapaghimagsik at 1:04AM, Dec. 17, 2006
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Battle on, yuletide warrior!
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:51PM
AQua_ng at 4:09AM, Dec. 17, 2006
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Yikes, somebody had a traumatic childhood Christmas experience. Nah, I'm just joshing with you.

But seriously, Christmas has evolved into an annual present giving day. I'm not sure why you hate something that comes but once a year. Unless you're emo, which I sincerely doubt.

I actually think you're in the past about this. Not a lot of people actually primarily link Christmas to the birth of Jesus, but as the commercial, Santa Claus, Coca-cola endorsed event as we know it.

Do we actually have a subsitute if somebody is celebrating Eid ul-Fitr? Yes, Eid. But nobody complains if they use one or the other.

So you have to face it, Christmas is here. As a holiday. Would you want to remember this time as the peroid of the tsunami whilst you're still at school/work?

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last edited on July 14, 2011 10:55AM
ozoneocean at 5:24AM, Dec. 17, 2006
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I agree with Aqua. Besides, if you live in the Western, “Christian” world, you should accept things like Christmas as part of the deal. I for one love it as a holiday because it's such an ancient tradition. I'm proud that it has survived from such an early primitive origin until today. Sure, all the rubbish with the presents to kids only really took of in the US about 200 years ago (the coke thing is an urban myth), but the tradition is far, far more ancient. Decorations and celebration, Christmas trees, Christmas dinners and parties etc, even Father Christmas (rather than the later “Santa Claus”), are nicely old and pre-Christian. I love that such a pleasant tie with our past still remains so strong.

Admittedly its past is more North Western European than anything else, quite Germanic even, but the countries that celebrate it most today can strongly trace their origins and culture to that part of the world.

The only thing that really annoys me about Christmas are the continued efforts by various Christian institutions to reclaim it. It annoys me because they claim that the “true meaning” of Christmas is this “peace of earth” crap and the “birth of the saviour”. Fair enough, that's the method through which they were able to appropriate the celebration and in some sense help to preserve it, but the present giving, the decorations, the man in the suit, having a big dinner with family and friends and getting drunk etc are the true meanings of the day!
 
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isukun at 5:59AM, Dec. 17, 2006
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I always preferred the Japanese tradition of eating a big cake and then having sex with your girlfriend.

Seriously, though, it is more a commercial holiday than anything else these days. My family celebrates it as a day when the family can get together, eat a big dinner, and exchange gifts. None of us are Christian, but we still enjoy getting time off of work and school and spending time together.

The only thing I dislike about the holiday is what it brings out in people prior to the holiday itself. Go down to any mall a few days before Christmas and you'll see the real ugly side of humanity.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:03PM
mapaghimagsik at 8:47AM, Dec. 17, 2006
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Its amusing that when the church tried to get rid of the yule celebrations by slapping the birth of Christ over them and making it a “Christian” holiday, they only wound up reinforcing those traditions.

heh “If you're in the Christian West you must submit to the will of Christmas!” That's cute. Make sure all the Jews get that memo.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:51PM
isukun at 11:46AM, Dec. 17, 2006
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I love THIS article.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:03PM
ccs1989 at 12:48PM, Dec. 17, 2006
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Hey, it gets me off from school for 10 days and lets me spend time with family. Why complain about THAT?

If you can't find any good shows on TV, there's a little thing called the Internet you might want to check out.
http://ccs1989.deviantart.com

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last edited on July 14, 2011 11:38AM
Jimeth at 12:55PM, Dec. 17, 2006
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Ha, I like christmas. I can understand what you're saying, and you're in an unfortunate position not liking it, escpecially since, as you say, it's all around us.

Try not to bring anyone else down about it though. Family for instance, if they like christmas then your ‘bah humbug’ness could ruin the day. That, is, if your family celebrate it.
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Black_Kitty at 1:11PM, Dec. 17, 2006
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I love Christmas~ It's actually my favourite time of the year. ^^ It's an excuse for me to give people candies and gifts. I get to see Christmas lights and Christmas trees. And I do like listening to Christmas music and I get to spend time with family. And I get time off! I miss sleeping and eating proper meals at a proper time a lot and I get to do that during Christmas.

I just don't like how early the malls would start promoting it. They usually put up the Christmas decorations right after Halloween and I think that's just too early. I rather see it all start at the beginning of December instead. I also tend to stay away from the malls during the final few days before Christmas. Anyone who hates crowded malls but go anyway during those days deserve whatever headache they end up with.

I also don't like the political correctness that happens every Christmas. Christmas trees and Christmas isn't just a Christian holiday. Everyone can celebrate Christmas in whatever way they want no matter who they are or what faith they subscribe to. So when I wish people Merry Christmas or I call the tree a Christmas tree and not a Holiday tree, people need to realize that I'm not trying to convert them.
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Rich at 2:32PM, Dec. 17, 2006
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My problem with Christmas stems from the fact that everyone is mean during Christmas time. In no other part of the year will you find so many people in stores who are angry, mad, and just want to give you a hard time.

Don't believe me? I worked retail this time last year. I spent more time fighting with customers who were angry during december than in all the rest of my 6 month working time at dollar general.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:07PM
isukun at 4:41PM, Dec. 17, 2006
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It takes a certain type of person to do their holiday shopping at the Dollar General.

In the DC area, it's pretty much true everywhere. People just treat each other like trash when they're shopping. Of course, the whole shopping experience is a nightmare around Christmas. The malls are packed full of people, there is no parking, you sit in traffic for a hour just to get to the stores you want to go to, and then you end up driving around the parking lot for half hour just to find a space that's a half mile away from the mall. It's no wonder people are a little cranky.

I've found people to be a bit more sociable in Savannah, though. Here the malls don't get overcrowded. I haven't had any problems getting anywhere, and the people have been fairly friendly towards each other. I saw a line at the Gamestop at the Savannah Mall today since a new shipment of the Wii came in. I asked what was going on and then was able to chat with people in line while waiting. Nobody shoved or pushed past people in front of them even after they found out only six units were available.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:03PM
mapaghimagsik at 4:44PM, Dec. 17, 2006
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The holidays bring out stress. Luckily, I do my shopping earlier, and concentrate on the eggnog.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:51PM
jalford at 11:46PM, Dec. 17, 2006
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That and my limited copy of the Nights Christmas video game.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:06PM
mapaghimagsik at 12:18PM, Dec. 18, 2006
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Good thing I got the “left behind” game for the Xbox, so I can blow away the infidel with my super jesus powers!
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:51PM
ozoneocean at 8:01AM, Dec. 19, 2006
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mapaghimagsik
heh “If you're in the Christian West you must submit to the will of Christmas!” That's cute. Make sure all the Jews get that memo.
People can do what they like. “Happy Holidays” and rubbish like that replacing Christmas messages is quite unpleasant though. There is no need to dilute or neuter these celebrations to allow for touchy sensibilities. Jewish people can celebrate Hanukah, people can celebrate Kwanza, Slavs can do their Slava, people can all enjoy their own festivities without worrying that they might somehow be offending someone else by enjoying themselves. If a person's objection is the Christianity in Christmas then they are morons: the day survived through its Christian association, as we know, but it is now fundamentally a part of Western culture because of this, quite apart from the religious associations.

It's like the Hagia Sophia, Notre Dame Cathedral, or Angkor Wat: We KNOW they are examples of religious architecture, but we can all enjoy and marvel them no matter what our sensibilities.

That said, I do object to the extra Christian messages being added to Christmas by various groups. That's when it gets a bit too thick. Keep the old traditions like the nativity play, but don't go putting crosses on everything and yelling about “our saviour!”. The real belief side of things needs to be kept private.
 
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mapaghimagsik at 9:17AM, Dec. 19, 2006
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Yeah, as a matter of fact, I said “Merry Christmas” to someone, and the store security guards jumped me, pinned me down, and wouldn't let me up until I said “Happy Holidays”.

Personally, I object to the idea that Christmas was moved to try and dillute my Yule celebrations. However, that was a long, long time ago, and I don't piss and moan on forums about it ;)

So besides this whole “dilution” thing, we're pretty much in agreement. Personally, I'm not bugged if someone says, “Merry Christmas”, “Happy Holidays”, “Joyous Yule”, “Great Kwanza”, “Go fuck yourself”…

Okay, I object to the “Go fuck yourself”. But that's on principle.

If people want to use the nice generic term, like “ChrisHanaKwanza”, I'm not going to ding them for it. I think you should just look at it as someone at least took the effort to indicate that you should enjoy a day, in either a denominational or non-denominational mode.

Which is a fair bit better than “go fuck yourself.”
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:51PM
ozoneocean at 7:25AM, Dec. 29, 2006
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This seems more of a rant thread than a debate thread, so I'll join in the “true spirit”.

You know what pisses me of most right now about Christmas? All these cynical wankers decrying it as too being commercial and “Red suit jolly Sata Clause” only being invented by Coca-Cola in the 30's or something… All this f**king stupid 20thC social mythology! They just go along with the idea that commercialism is bad and the coke thing must be true because it sounds so sad and tawdry, without bothering to think about it for themselves or do some cursory research. -even looking at very old Christmas cards is enough to BLOW the Coke story out of the water, let alone doing any real research, which of course kills it dead. This modern “common sense”, imbecile logic, consensus belief, it-MUST-be-true-becaue-it-sounds-fun-and-everybody-else-thinks-so, culture of global urban-myth making is turning society into a bunch of think alike morons.

It's the same sort of culture that leads the sheep to all be afraid of terrorism, agree to the Iraq war, to all think that democracy automatically leads to peace and freedom and to even come up with the stupid unexamined idea of “Freedom” in the first place.
 
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mapaghimagsik at 8:56AM, Dec. 29, 2006
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Not that I disagree with you OO, but what did you take away from the store of Christ chasing the money lenders out of the temple?
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:51PM
ozoneocean at 9:36AM, Dec. 29, 2006
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Interesting. So you're saying it's the Christians who're trying to ruin Christmas? You're probably right there, it's no different from what the puritans tried to do after the civil war in England.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:25PM
mapaghimagsik at 10:07AM, Dec. 29, 2006
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Nope, I didn't *say* anything. I asked a question. I do have a point in asking it, but please, don't jump to it because there's some wading to do in the middle.

My take on the money-lenders in the temple and Christ chasing them out is a very strong state/church separation for me. Christ makes a couple rather pointed arguments in this vein.

The reason I want to go at this a bit slower is that saying “Christians destroyed Christmas” is misleading. I don't think its an intentional thing, but I do think that commercialism is about money, and is happy to piggy back on *everything* that can generate more money.

As a capitalist, if saying Jesus Christ is my personal savior and establishing a church would get me out of paying property taxes, I would do it in a heartbeat because that's what capital does. Capitalism is like water or electricity. It flows down least resistance to establish its goal. Luckily, we're not pure capitalists.

Also there's an issue with the term “Christian”. I think people would like to call themselves Christian, but the definition is tricky, in the fact that it seems the standard definition is anyone who believes Christ to be the son of God. Islam doesn't count, because Christ is just a prophet to them.

So anyway, I guess if that's the definition of Christian, and the definition of Christmas is celebrating the birth of Christ – well I'm not sure where this thing about trees and presents and cards comes in. There's some very good arguments that Christmas is on the wrong day – heck, even the wrong month. Something about being Christ being born six months after John the Baptist and Johns birth is pretty well tracked, I didn't particularly worry about that, since I was more interested in the fact the shepherds were out in their fields when Christ was allegedly born, and everyone knows you don't keep your sheep out in the fields in December in Israel. Okay, not everyone, but I do. Don't ask why.

So, to keep it sorta-simple, it isn't Christians who are trying to ruin Christmas. As usual, its complicated, and there's always been a problem with the idea that Christians just have to accept Jesus Christ as their savior to be “Christian” and can completely ignore Christ's alleged teachings, and that's okay because we'll all be forgiven in the end.

I would think that Christmas cannot be destroyed by anyone. It simply is. It doesn't matter how many Jews say “Happy Hanukkah” or people celebrate “Yule” (Dec 20th) or Brits celebrate “Boxing Day” or “Kwanzaa” (Both on Dec 26). If one looks at what Christ is supposed to be and represent – what gets celebrated on Dec 25 really shouldn't matter. I mean, he's supposed to be the Son of God, for well, Christ's sake, so I would think that it doesn't matter when he was supposedly born, but what he supposedly tried to teach us.

But the bible does have greed as a deadly sin. The money-lenders were all about greed. So's Wal-Mart and Target. Do people who understand greed as a deadly sin really want that associated with Christmas?
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:51PM
ozoneocean at 10:57AM, Dec. 29, 2006
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You see that's where we differ. I think of Christmas as being truly about food and celebration etc because that's what most people actually do on the day, regardless of religion (if they bother to follow the day at all), and that's what they did before history tells us that Christianity tagged along. :)
Given this perspective, that's why I “jumped” to my conclusion.
-I'm thankful to my Christian heritage for preserving the original tradition, and I don't mind a lot of the baggage, but not for the rest: The “sins” ideas… so much emphasis on the “son of God”… That kind of thing really has a lot of strong roots in Puritan times as a way to try and convert the pre-existing celebration and reign it in. It didn't work back then and has never truly been successful, but that doesn't stop people trying again and again every year.

The trouble is if it works, if they can ever truly claim Christmas as a purely Christian day, then they will finally succeed in destroying it. The objective begun 400 or so years ago will finally have come to fruition! Take the commercialism, the fun and the gifts away and leave us with sad, sorry sermonising, then universality and contagion of the celebration is nullified. At last it can join in along as one of the quiet legion of special little Christian church celebrations that no one outside knows exist.

The thing is, the rampant commercialism is actually just the latest mutation of the Christmas story. What started as some kind of Northern European Midwinter festival back in the mists of history has managed to keep going and keep spreading itself all this time, acquiring new traditions all along the way. Commercialism is doing for Christmas what Christianity did for it all that time ago: owning it, changing it, keeping it alive, and spreading it. I think it's a pretty amazing thing really. :)
 
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mapaghimagsik at 11:16AM, Dec. 29, 2006
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Wow, I put out a line of thought, and conclusions based on that line of thought.

Then you turn around and tell me what I'm thinking.

Should I just send you my password and let you type my posts for me? Sheesh. As a matter of fact, you come to “my” conclusion, and don't even address a single one of my points.

Just a quick recap.

You make a statement.
I ask a question
You don't give an answer, make a conclusion that isn't mine, argue that and win!
I clarify, giving some analysis.
You don't give an answer, make a conclusion that isn't mine, argue that and win!

I'm sensing a pattern here.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:51PM
MagickLorelai at 7:39PM, Dec. 29, 2006
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Ooookay,relax, please. The holidays may be officially “over”(barring New Year's), but let's try to carry the sentiment of peace and good will over, shall we? I think there's just been a couple of misunderstandings on what's been said.

This time of year, universally, is about being good to one another and celebrating for the sake of celebrating. There are other reasons thrown in, but people are still practicing this holiday not out of obligation, but because we get to play, sing, dance, party, and give gifts. That's why I don't really care if someone wishes me Merry Christmas, because, at least in the US, we're a Christian Majority here. The likelihood of running into a fellow Christian is higher than encountering someone of a different faith. So what do I say in return? “Happy Yule!” or return with “Merry Christmas!” Because it's not about WHAT you celebrate. It's THAT you celebrate. It wouldn't hurt to have a little more tolerance, and that more people would understand that there ARE other religions that DO celebrate this time of year.

I'm also a bit tired of the self-imposed War On Christmas. That's as paranoid as any other conspiracy theory that you'd find in the tabloids, why are people even entertaining the notion? Oh well. *shrug*Some people just want to believe they're being persecuted to justify when they close off the rights of others “In self defense”.

last edited on July 14, 2011 1:50PM
mapaghimagsik at 7:47PM, Dec. 29, 2006
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I agree, this “War on Christmas” has been casualty free :)

And yes, there's a lot of Christians in the US, but I think more and more its because people want to belong the club and not out of any practical dogma or practice. Me, it was what I was brought up on, and despite my delusional relatives, I love them just the same.

New Years is becomming much easier, if only because I don't have to see the poor store clerks on the verge of explosion. It used to be “Happy Holidays” was safe. Well, the Bill O'Reily and other pundits of the world wrecked that and treated the Jewish population of the world to second class citizens.

In short, a lot of Christians need to get over their persecution complex – although it seems to be what the evangelical wing thrives on.

People are entertaining the notion because the pundits tell them to, and people sure don't want to seem like they aren't Christian enough. Again, I just don't see the Christian population policing its own, and like the Republicans, if they aren't careful, what is a pretty decent religion is going to get controlled by a bunch of people who ignore all the teachings of the Bible save “gays are evil”.

Which I think would be a darn shame, really.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:51PM
ozoneocean at 7:04AM, Dec. 30, 2006
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mapaghimagsik
Should I just send you my password and let you type my posts for me? Sheesh. As a matter of fact, you come to “my” conclusion, and don't even address a single one of my points.
What's that? We should tag team the entire debate forum. :)
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:25PM
Lords_of_Darkness at 11:09AM, Jan. 1, 2007
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This is my view. Take it as you will, I don't care. As long as we still have 20something year olds with a car and an ID, Christmas will live on. No one but the “big christians” really care about how the day is spend. Me being a “non-denominational christian”, I don't care how you or him or her spends the day. I personally unethical that you don't celebrate it in some way or another. I don't see it as a christian holiday. It may of been at one point, but it isn't anymore, nothing can change that. I don't have feelings for the people that try to put Christ back in it. Although I do think the birth of Christ started it. Please don't try to say I'm wrong, its my beliefs, get over it. I have mine, you have yours. If someone wants to drink and be happy, let them. If some dick somewhere (Jack Thompson) want to ruin the spirit (video games) then they should be locked up somewhere. You like how I hate Jack, huh :)
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shadowmagi at 11:11AM, Jan. 12, 2007
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Personally, i also find it extremely annoying, what with all the ridiculous advertising, and everyone shoving it in your face that CHRISTMAS IS HERE!! CELEBRATE!! BUY!!. But what i also find annoying are the people who can't seem to accept that it is a holiday celebrated by millions of people, and that we live in a capitalist society where any means of making money is desperately latched onto. All the buisinesses see this as a way to make money, so of course they're going to pummel you with their ads and products.

What I really don't understand is why people get so bent out of shape over this. No one is forcing you to listen. No one is holding a gun to your head and making you celebrate or buy things or even enjoy yourself. There are far more troubling and upsetting things to worry about, and you (not the writer of this thread in particular, im speaking hypothetically) let yourself get irritated by a couple months of nonstop, agressive advertising? Aw well. I say shrug it off, ignore it, and spend the months before christmas however you want, regardless of what everyone else is doing.


That's just my opinion, mind you. ;)

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(i like feedback~!)
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:32PM
Tundra at 6:01PM, Jan. 17, 2007
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I just wish it wouldn't go on so long because then it's not special anymore.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 4:35PM
Krensada at 3:45AM, Jan. 18, 2007
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ShadowMagi Said:

What I really don't understand is why people get so bent out of shape over this. No one is forcing you to listen. No one is holding a gun to your head and making you celebrate or buy things or even enjoy yourself.

The way commercials are nowadays you even see them on the internet as popups. somehow this fresh new supply of pupups have new protocols that seem to be able to get past my pop up blockers and such. I feel they are forcing you to listen…not only that i feel they are indeed forcing it down your throat! i managed to hear a christmas commercial every 15 seconds on the tv when changing channels on DEC 20th. turn off the tv, listen to the radio its on there. turn off the radio and read the paper its in there! throw the paper in the trash and check your mail there is a STACK of christmas ad junkmail. Burn that in the fire check your email and its In your email and got past the spam blockers. Delete the spam and surf to your favorite site and go through about 50 popups! there is no escape if you try to gain any information anywhere.


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last edited on July 14, 2011 1:21PM

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