Debate and Discussion

Immortality
ozoneocean at 4:54PM, June 21, 2006
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This is interesting! Medical science says we’re actually pretty close to this in a lot of ways (without losing health or becoming decrepit). But is it desirable?
The longer we live, the less inclined we are to procreate. The less kids we have, the less we are able to cope if there’s a disaster, and we also couldn’t get young people to fight for us, come up with new exciting ideas, do all the shitty menial jobs, etc…
Here’s an interesting thing Mykill commented in the games forum:
immortality sucks if you think about it. Almost 40, I've been around long enough to realize what young people think is a ‘new’ idea is really a tired old idea they weren’t around to get sick of the first time. Multiply that despair times a couple million and you have the experience of immortality: transcendental boredom!

Personally, I like the idea! The worst part about getting older is aging! Stop aging and then things are ok. There is a LOT of knowledge in the world and it would be a joy to be able to consume it constantly and go on doing so forever, learning new abilities, applying them and creating new things and adding to the knowledge base. If you get bored with life you could always kill yourself…
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:23PM
Ronson at 5:52PM, June 21, 2006
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If you can always kill yourself, then you aren't talking about immortality. You're talking about prolonged life.

But semantics aside, there would certainly be an upside to those who could afford it. I'm having enough trouble imagining doing my job for a decade without thinking about doing it for centuries!

And of course prolonging life doesn't mean we as a society would stop having kids, just that we would probably outgrow them, or distance ourselves from them after a hundred years or so.

The world would get crowded, so then there'd have to be some sort of forced birth control or forced executions. Both would be met with resistance until there was no choice.

But if you mean that I (and Martha, and all those I love – but no one else) could live forever I suppose it would be fun. Assuming I was able to afford it and that I didn't have to reduce my standard of living.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:10PM
Ian Jay at 8:42PM, June 21, 2006
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I dunno… I've always wondered what comes after death, so living forever is already out for me. And I'm not too keen on staying the same way I am now– being sixteen is not an easy task, and being sixteen until I die would be a hellish affair.

Eternal youth and immortality would take away the two things that humans ironically need to survive: death and change. I mean, I understand the uniquely human fear of things being anything but perfectly as they are now (which is why David Byrne describes Heaven as “a place where nothing, nothing ever happens”. Then again, the dude can't even find a suit that fits properly, so what does he know?). But a life without things changing– and without us changing with it, and yes, eventually dying (the biggest change of all, some would consider)– life would indeed become boring and pointless.

And it still wouldn't make things easier for people You can't take the bad parts of life out, no matter how hard you try, through science or otherwise. And no matter how much knowledge and insight we gain from living forever, we'll still see it all through our stupid, hateful, ignorant human viewpoints. For our and for everyone else's own good, we should probably just take the lifetimes we get– no more, no less.

~IJ
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:56PM
PhatScurl at 8:09AM, June 22, 2006
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Immortality would SUUUUUUUCK! I'm 15 and already bored out of my mind, i can't even begin to wonder what it'd be like if i was 1478 years old, jeez, i'd be like on the floor dragging myself, just for entertainment. Not to mention the millions of other problems.

if reproduction would continue, it would be impossible to house and feed everybody, heck we can't even do that now!

Thousands of people would lose jobs (herse drivers, practicianer , and morgue owners)

also, the millions who would find ways to abuse the gift.

Its just a horrible idea and holds know benefits except for never dying!
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:43PM
Hawk at 10:22AM, June 22, 2006
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Even if we could live as long as we want, I think most people would eventually choose to die, it being the next step in their progression.

The longer you live, the more chances you have to get scars, lose limbs, and disfigure your body. I think you'd get to the point where you've decided you've had long enough to enjoy life and your body is too thrashed to really enjoy it.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:45PM
ccs1989 at 10:35AM, June 22, 2006
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Living forever is a waste. Sure, it'd be nice to be completely invincible to anything bad happening, but even that'd get old after a while. If I had the chance to live a really long time, I'd probably go for 500 years just so see what life was like after that time (as long as I could stay at a reasonably young age or age really slowly).

Of course, it'd probably get too depressing.
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“If one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours.”
-Henry David Thoreau, Walden
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:37AM
mykill at 11:03AM, June 22, 2006
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It seems scientifically sound. Anyone can extend their life expectancy by over a hundred percent! The catch? You have to live on a severe calorie restricted diet, almost but not quite starvation.

Seems the digesting process is terribly stressful to the human body and that stress is responsible for a large percentage of the breaking down of the body as it ages.

Pretty much no one has desired longetivity bad enough to endure such a miserable minomalist diet long enough to do anything like hit age 150 or 200, though it may actually be very possible.

The fact that people die allows society to progress. If life expectancy were, say 300 years, our elders would be people who represent the thoughts, opnions, prejudices and biases that they were born into - and they would weild power and influence enough to maintain those paradigms. You know, stuff like homosexuality does not exist, non christians need to be saved, people of color are animals and can only be saved by being owned by a Christian slavemaster, it's against the will of God that Women vote or speak in church ..etc.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:09PM
ccs1989 at 11:05AM, June 22, 2006
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But what's the worth in living if you can't stuff yourself with chocolate cake and pizza?
And ice cream.

And chips.

And orange juice.

And etc, etc…
http://ccs1989.deviantart.com

“If one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours.”
-Henry David Thoreau, Walden
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:37AM
ozoneocean at 4:29PM, June 22, 2006
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Yeah, you guys who are bored now… That's really quite sad I'm afraid.
As for procreation, that's not supported by the facts. Societies that live longer have less and less children. Societies with shorter lifespans have more children. This is as true in nature as it is in human communities. :wink:
(This is what happens. You could change it of course, but the mechanism seems to be built in and it’s quite useful in the circumstances).

As for society depending on a constant turnover: Things change.
That's another fact. Once life maximum expectancy was something like 20! If you got to 30 you were an elder in stone age times… Once 60 was considered elderly and advanced, now 60 is simply considered as 40 was once considered: a mature adult.
people in their 20's these days are considered like teenagers. Even people into their 30's!

Times change with us, they always do. We get used to it and it’s like life was never any different. As many of you should be able to attest, if you’d stop to think about it… :)

As for caloric restriction, that's just one way… And it plays into the old classic story ideas of having a sting in the tail. You know; pacts with the devil have a catch, and all that sort of thing. It makes a great moral for a story, but do we always have to apply such simplistic reasoning to real life?
Look, there is no “natural order”, or “way things should be”. That’s a hangover from a religion centred past. The order of how things work depends on no external authority, the order is what you make it: it’s how things settle because of circumstance.
If any of you use the “natural order/inevitability of death reasoning”, I will accuse you of religion, and a very simplistic, primitive understanding of religion at that!

Why? Because it’s no different from people once saying human’s couldn’t fly, couldn’t heal someone from cancer, couldn’t do blood transfusions, couldn’t tame animals, couldn’t settle and farm, couldn’t build dams, couldn’t get rid of their monarchies, and so on: All due to those just “being” the natural state of things. Myopic assumptions, based on a limited view of the world, limited intelligence, and limited imagination, with no ability to see past one’s own experience to what is possible. Or even worse: Justifications as to why you shouldn’t.
God says.

And if you think I’m being a bit harsh by saying that, well, it’s just part of the debate. :D
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:23PM
mykill at 7:34AM, June 23, 2006
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Caloric restriction is something that really works in theory. Sure other technique purport to extend life expectancy, but they don't work as well and are without scientific backing. Caloric restriction is a what's so. The bullshit that ‘oh, it fall into the mythology of a ’catch' and therefore is simplistic or not true - is bullshit and not true.

Most great truths are simple and cliché - that's how the truth eludes us until we get the experience to KNOW, whereupon we share the golden knowledge, perpetuating the cliché….

Is another form of extending life expectancy possible? Shit - if it's to become a reality life extention HAS TO take a different form.

I think my position arguing about longevity stunting social progress is on point tho. Take gay rights, as pre baby boomers who don't understand gay rights die off to be replaced by generation ‘y’, who gernerally understand gay people are born and deserve rights - the agenda for equal rights for gay people takes on an inevitability.

If the pre baby boom generation were to be around for another hundred years, if 150 were the new ‘40’… I'd have less rights, people of color would have less rights and the hot button issue is whether or not a black man can marry a white women and not be convicted of rape.

Circumstances change - but people do not. People become ‘stuck in ther ways’.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:09PM
spaz201 at 7:54PM, July 1, 2006
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Screw living forever.

I want to live a good life span, and be productive, and active. Be a somebody, and when I've lived in the limelight long enough I'll spend my time slowly enjoying the small things, Pick up hanggliding and hopefully fulfill my dream of dying in my own made grave.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:53PM
marine at 1:36AM, July 4, 2006
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As a person that isn't afraid of death, immortality seems like a shitty idea. My life already isn't that special, and I've already seen a lot of people come and go, but shit just seems to cycle around so much I don't even care when people I know die. Whats worse, people I care about I don't really care about. Its all just living in the moment for me. The only catharsis I really have is pissing people off or making people laugh. Its really a double edged sword eithar way.

I pretty much hate the world, and want out. Even if it means going to hell (which according to 80% of the worlds religions, I'm going to hell, especially according to the only real religion, christianity, I"m doubly fucked) so life doesn't really matter. I'd like to hope when I die that I get to just sit around until I go crazy and kill myself, then wake up back here, as a 27 year old webcomic artist. Maybe I'll luck out and become one of the Penny Arcade losers. Those guys are honestly more soul less then the guy who does Garfield.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:51PM
Liriel at 9:30PM, July 5, 2006
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You can't help a nihilist MechaShiva.

I would say yes to Immortality because there's no end to learning from and improving one's life.

~Liriel
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:35PM
Juliechan at 2:44PM, Dec. 13, 2006
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It's a truly interesting concept…Immortality.
In the world we live in we're born, we grow, we die, it's a never ending cycle everyone and everything has some end that must befall it. That's how we've been taught, and that's how (from what we can tell) the world works.
On the one side, if I could stay in my mid-late twenties or early thirties until I chose I was ready to done with this life and move on, I think it would be the chance of a lifetime and truly interesting. On the other hand of course…
If people could live as long as they chose or forever than I have to question if we'd ever go anywhere, or if we'd over time just downslide into a place that will never be able to pill itself up.

A lot of consideration must be taken when reviewing this topic…
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:11PM
ccs1989 at 3:56PM, Dec. 14, 2006
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Reading my post from a long time ago back there I'm feeling like changing my mind. What I think would be fun to do is to be able to live each day as if it was your last while still living forever. Think of all you could accomplish. It would be awesome.

Also I'd kind of want to figure out what happens at the end of time.
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“If one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours.”
-Henry David Thoreau, Walden
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:38AM
LIZARD_B1TE at 2:57PM, Dec. 15, 2006
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An odd thing about immortality… Imagine…

I once came with a scifi story idea that involves a man who found the Fountain of Youth and ends up living for centuries. He ends up learning everything, he is so knowledgeable that he ends up with the ability to bend the laws of reality. He has ultimate power, so, naturally, he is ultimately corrupted.

In that sense, immortality is kind of scary. Immagine what people would be like if they lived forever.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:36PM
ozoneocean at 4:07PM, Dec. 15, 2006
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You can have immortality, all you have to do is simply remove all the factors that could end your life: The progressive degeneration and mutation of your genes and your body's ability to repair itself, illness, accident, lack of sustenance or oxygen, and murder. Then you are immortal! But if you still have the ability to die, you'll likely be even more afraid of death. :(

Chances are we can't totally eliminate all threats to life… There will always be something there to get us, but we can narrow the odds, as we have been doing for millennia: we live longer now than ever. People are murdered less often, despite what you hear on the “news” (which is probably why it still makes such interesting news stories), a LOT of effort goes into avoiding accidents, less people in developed countries die from illness during their mid to early years. The main problem is still in genetics: what we call “aging”, but what is actually a problem with the replication of healthy genetic material and cellular damage. Counteract that and you'll be like the Norse gods with their golden apples, or the Chinese ones with their peaches. But partial immortality always reminds me of the Norse god Baldur, and the way Loki tricked Hod into killing him with a sprig of mistletoe… Or Achilles and his heel. The price of immortality will be awareness of your vulnerabilities and protection against potential threats.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:25PM
Aussie_kid at 2:56AM, Dec. 19, 2006
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Unfortunately, immortality would really suck for some one like me. Confined to darkness, basically blind, bad muscle conditions, hearing getting weaker, random asthma attacks, really bad heat sickness. According to tests I've done, I'm only going to live into my early seventies. By that time, I'm likely to have a very weak immune system. If I had to live forever, with my problems, it'd be miserable. I mean, yeah, if they could cure me and make me healthy, that'd be great.

Then, what about if it gets abused? Let's say a pedophile kidnaps a kid. The child is forced to live without nutrition, stunting they're growth rendering them child-like forever. And it doesn't hurt them, they're immortal. They don't need food or water. Plus, any abuse would go on for longer. Let's say the kidnapper wasn't caught until 300 years later? When that kid is released they're going to be severly messed up. They've only spent a fraction of their life in a ‘normal’ lifestyle (Maybe they were even born into abuse). They won't know anything else.

There are good and bad things about living forever, but it's real easy to identify the bad stuff over the good
Insanity Complex: We may not be insane, but we like to think we are
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:11AM
Flame the Hybrid at 4:37AM, Jan. 6, 2007
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I think Immortality is a curse when everyone you knew that were your friends around you grow old and die and you still live on. Immortality isn't a gift, it's a curse.
Remember people, there are stupid questions and stupid people.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:29PM
Aurora Moon at 4:54AM, Jan. 6, 2007
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Flame the Hybrid
I think Immortality is a curse when everyone you knew that were your friends around you grow old and die and you still live on. Immortality isn't a gift, it's a curse.

and what if everyone around you that you knew got the same chance at immortality you did? then it'd be a gift, not a curse snice you'd still get to enjoy doing stuff with your friends and your loved ones for as long as you wanted to.
I'm on hitatus while I redo one of my webcomics. Be sure to check it out when I'n done! :)
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:09AM
lothar at 6:36AM, Jan. 6, 2007
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Aurora Moon
and what if everyone around you that you knew got the same chance at immortality you did? then it'd be a gift, not a curse snice you'd still get to enjoy doing stuff with your friends and your loved ones for as long as you wanted to.

what about dogs and cats , will they get to be immoral too ?
and what about all your Stuff? it would start decaying , you would have to keep buying new stuff, that would suck !
i think a society of immortals would have to be sort of transient and very spartan,
and with unlimited life spans , eventually everbody is gunna get sick and trired of everybody else, that would be pretty annoying - Maybe if you could fly around in space for millions of years randomly visiting some planets while neglecting others , and starting various religions , that would make it more interesting, dont you think?
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:45PM
Aurora Moon at 7:04AM, Jan. 6, 2007
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lol!!! sorry, but I laughed when you said immoral instead of immortal… snice immoral means to be in the wrong, etc…

but yeah, I would definely want my pets to be immortal too. but I suppose that's a given as seeing not only have medical avances improve for humans too, they do for animals too. there's been improvements in the Vet's area in terms of medenices and care for your pets.

so if medical stuff got to the point where it got so avdanced that it made humans pretty much immortal, then the same would go for our beloved animals.

and as for stuff to start decaying.. well I've never known that to happen. I take very good care of my things so that stuff I brought an dedcade ago is still in near mint condition as if it was still new. the same goes for some of my family's stuff that they had from years ago. they're herliroms but they're in exemetely good condition. it's just all in knowing how to take good care of your stuff and knowing how to prevent stuff like age from affecting your items too.
I'm on hitatus while I redo one of my webcomics. Be sure to check it out when I'n done! :)
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:09AM
Lords_of_Darkness at 1:14PM, Jan. 10, 2007
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I, being a religious person, believe in Armagedon (this isn't a religion based topic so please don't try to disprove religion). If you don't know, Armagedon is Gods plan to end the Earth in a fiery ball, most likly by a huge meteor. But just imagine, you can't die, Earth blows up… You are in one of three possible places.

In a burning wasteland until the Earth is remade. (through evolution or divine manor depending on how you look at it) Or you floating around in space, not being able to change direction and feeling the pain of a supposedly -200 degress plus (possibly even being colder then -200 degress) environment while also feeling the pain of suffication and since you can't die, you'd feel it forever. You never said anything about not having to breathe. You'd be alive but you'd be brain dead.

And for the third. Say Armagedon doesn't happen. You'd still face religion wether or not you believe in it. The world will be in endless amounts of wars and what not forever because of religion.

Oh and a possible fourth outcome I didn't think of. Nuclear winter… Atom bombs are only growing… And for you who said play every game, I forgot who you were, sorry. What if you got stuck in game for lets say the Xbox 720 and Gameshark and Action Replay and all that kind of stuff no longer exists and you can't beat the game, you just simply can't figure it out.

And yet another place you could be. In a government controlled facility being constantly studied when someone realizes that you haven't paid taxes in 600 years…(assuming you wouldn't pay taxes, even in you do, people will realize your not dead) Think about it. Immortality sucks.

But, if immortality were to rear its ugly head, I'd have to say, I'd join move to Isreal and join their Army. Since, according to my mother who said "Those who protects the Lord's name, Will be protected by the Lord's name.
However, chances are if I REALLY did became immortal, I'd loose faith in God and most likely reject him.

Moral of the story. God has his plans, look at animals. They die and reproduce without thinking about it. If you ask me, Humans intelligence is only a test to rid out the easyly coruptable humans…

God this is long, I'll stop now. And like I said, I didn't say this to get you to say religion is wrong or stupid or anything, its my POV, nothing can change that, so don't try please. (POV = Point of View)
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:45PM
Phantom Penguin at 2:35PM, Jan. 10, 2007
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Immortality would be pretty cool…
for a while.

But think of the strain the earth would be under? Horrible overpopulation for one.
Well if immortality spread to farm animals we wouldn't have to worrie about food..

But a immortal cow is kinda frightning.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:42PM
subcultured at 2:59PM, Jan. 10, 2007
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i would wanna be immortal
think of all the roads you can take in life…

when overpopulation creeps its ugly head
we can have sword fights…I mean
“there can be only be one”

http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/PPLHEs0dBkc
J
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:00PM
Lords_of_Darkness at 6:22PM, Jan. 10, 2007
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holy shit, i thought i was the only one who knew about highlander lmao
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:45PM
ozoneocean at 7:58PM, Jan. 10, 2007
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Everyone knows about highlander. Those are pretty sloppy debating posts :(
But I'm NOT modding here (don't want to), so I won't do anything about it. Still, you should know a little better.

As for over-population and other stupid worst-case scenarios: think it through for goodness sake. When anything at all lives longer it always becomes less fertile, not more. This has already been said. Would immortal people worry about war? Well there would probably be less chance of war actually: If population growth goes down (because there's less need to reproduce), competition for resources also decreases, and for people with extended life spans their fear of death would ALSO increase. Two good arguments for why war would be made less likely.

Come on, nature strives for immortality, that's why we reproduce, why we strive and strain to develop and improve: So that we may continue. I contend that the meaning of life is life, as opposed to death; therefore, by achieving immortality you wouldn't be going against nature, rather you would be fulfilling its ultimate purpose!
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:25PM
kingofsnake at 8:32AM, Jan. 11, 2007
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I think I could stand living 3 or 4 hundred years. The post constantinian romans believed that our capacity for reason was the quality that only humans possesed that we received from God, that we shared with him. William Blake wrote that it was not reason but creativity that made us like to sons of God. Our ability to make art, depict life in human nature through written word, through music. As long as I could write and draw life would be worth living. And in that time maybe I could pick up an instrument.

Talent in creation is only 10% inborn (in my opinion) maybe less. Real artistic skill of any kind comes from practice. Imagine how much better art, literature and music would be if composed by someone who has been doing it for 350 years instead of 35.

But lets not put reason aside. Great philosphy requires two things, a great and educated mind, and leisure. The number of great educated minds just continues to grow as education worldwide goes up. Certainly you have to deal with shoddy american school systems, but more and more people are taking education seriously, along with the people who are just coasting by. There is no shortage of great minds. What their is a shortage of is leisure time. With more years it would take longer to earn retirment money yes, but retirement would be longer, and you'd be more able to take advantage of the benifit of the free time without the mind or body getting weaker. Hell, you could work and save for 50 years then take 25 off then go back to work, and so on. With leisure would come great works of reason as well as art from sources that would otherwise produce very little.

Personally I feel that the definate long term negative effects of a large “immortal” population is well worth the positive outcome of having new, great works of art and reason that we might not see otherwise.

Albert Camus was a french existentialist philosoper during world war 2. He wrote (basically) that man was absurd by nature because he strove to accopmlish things, to improve things, whether for himself or others. But it was ultimately a waste of time due to the temporal nature of everything. And because one could die at any moment without warning, no one could even say they were going to do something for sure. The only logical answer to life then was suicide (life itself being utterly pointless no matter what you do.) But Camus rejected suicide. He said, ok, thats the next logical step, thats whats left, but no, its wrong. Instead he became an important figure in the underground resistance, he created a whole line of philosophical thought thats become an existential standard to this day, he lived a good and charitable life. Evenually be began to turn around to the idea that there might be a god. Before he sad, no definately no God. But he began to think that there might be some kind of God, not nessecarily a christian God, but just a god. This started to alter his way of thinking. But before he could write anything substantial on the subject, he ironically died in a car accident (fullfilling his own philosphy.)

How I would've loved it if he had written new works, to see how he incorporated this idea of the possiblity of God with his old philosophy, what it would've become.

Culturally, we can't afford NOT to be immortal
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:15PM
LIZARD_B1TE at 12:16PM, Jan. 11, 2007
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kingofsnake
Imagine how much better art, literature and music would be if composed by someone who has been doing it for 350 years instead of 35.

I immagine that the peak of their work would be at 100 years of experience, not 350. By 350, they probably will have run out of ideas and be producing crap for the rest of their life.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:36PM
kingofsnake at 1:09PM, Jan. 11, 2007
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LIZARD_B1TE
I immagine that the peak of their work would be at 100 years of experience, not 350. By 350, they probably will have run out of ideas and be producing crap for the rest of their life.

thats more cynical than realistic
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:15PM

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