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Iron Man 3 and other idiotic casting choices.
mlai at 6:02PM, Dec. 17, 2010
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http://www.comicvine.com/news/idris-elba-cast-as-heimdall-in-thor-movie/139825/
Wow. A black Norse God. And I thought Avatar Last Airbender had stupid casting choices.

What next, black Hercules? Black Odysseus? Even those are more believable than black Heimdall, because at least those dudes were in the multi-ethnic Mediterranean. Heck, Jesus was really Middle Eastern, after all. Not some pearly-white dude with hippies hair.

But a black Norseman… wtf. I'm told Marvel made some wand-waving explanation about how the Asgardians are all reincarnations, and that's why it's all multi-ethnic up there. Is that true? Might as well have a female Heimdall, then. I'd watch that.

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last edited on July 14, 2011 2:07PM
ozoneocean at 6:53PM, Dec. 17, 2010
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mlai
But a black Norseman… wtf. I'm told Marvel made some wand-waving explanation about how the Asgardians are all reincarnations, and that's why it's all multi-ethnic up there. Is that true? Might as well have a female Heimdall, then. I'd watch that.
Haha! Well… Thor in human form isn't the god Thor as he really is, that's Thor reincarnated as an American guy so Odin can send him down to Earth. -I don't follow the comics but I read about that a while ago.

Given that logic it's not really a stretch that they can be reborn in any human body.

The whole thing is far from precious with the mythology to start with anyway- I mean “Thor” was never a big rangy square jawed American with long blonde hair. Thor is a big burly, bull-like guy with RED hair and a beard. So if he can change…?
 
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itsjustaar at 8:04PM, Dec. 17, 2010
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You forgot Da Black Broly.
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Product Placement at 6:02PM, Dec. 18, 2010
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I don't even like to associate the marvel counterpart with Nordic mythology and I probably don't intend to watch that movie.

Thus I don't really care who they end up putting in a ridiculously looking armor (akin to this:
).

…Although, at least they don't have horned helmets.
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ozoneocean at 8:36PM, Dec. 18, 2010
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…Although, at least they don't have horned helmets.
Haha! Well they have dugup horned helmets at sites in Scandinavia… They're bronze and pre-Viking era, but that still makes a real connection. They're meant to be gods that existed before the Vikings came to be afterall. ;)
 
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bravo1102 at 2:02AM, Dec. 20, 2010
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I like the one commenter who said that it's ironic because Heimdall was referred to as “The whitest of the white.”

Hollywood has never been known for getting ethnicities right in casting. Ever. Want to bee a funny miscast movie? The Good Earth http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0028944/

Yeah great oscar winning movie with two Germans playing Chinese one with a very obvious German accent and she won Best Actress for it.

Hollywood has only gotten more subtle but the mistakes are still as egregious. The lead of that big movie about Geishas was Chinese? So a Norse god is black.

And Norse gods were often depicted with horned helmets in Norse art and early Teutons may have worn horned helmets (we know Celts did) Not every artist has a library full of works on military costume. Amazing how little plastic figures get it right but multi million dollar movies don't. No one in Hollywood ever heard of the Osprey MAA series.

Can't do that? Just go here and look at the little plastic figures. http://www.plasticsoldierreview.com/Index.aspx

You know if artists paid attention to what toy soldier collectors knew about military costume the world could be a better place. lol!
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:34AM
ozoneocean at 4:42AM, Dec. 20, 2010
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bravo1102
Hollywood has never been known for getting ethnicities right in casting. Ever. Want to bee a funny miscast movie? The Good Earth http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0028944/
Yess, and Yul Brynner played everybody
But this isn't like that. The Marvel Aesir aren't the Norse Aesir. They're reincarnated thingamajigies, and since they can reincarnate, they can do it into any person. Using a black actor only helps to explain that more obviously! ;)


Jebus… if people have a problem with this, what about having GREY aliens being the “real” Aesir in the Stargate series? That's way worse. Those stupid-heads are the biggest dorks this side of the Horse Head Nebula, and unlike the comic-book movie, they weren't reincarnations in other people's bodies.
Nerd-rage. >:[

Anyway, when they do a big Hollywood film about the Norse eddas, THEN people will be right to complain about this sort of thing, but till then just cool your jets.
 
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Genejoke at 5:34AM, Dec. 20, 2010
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Would it have been better if he wore make up to look white?
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bravo1102 at 6:30AM, Dec. 20, 2010
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ozoneocean
Anyway, when they do a big Hollywood film about the Norse eddas, THEN people will be right to complain about this sort of thing, but till then just cool your jets.

Fortunately for us when Hollywood did a Norse epic it was Ernest Borgnine, Kirk Douglas and Tony Curtis.

I'd rather have Grey aliens.

At least when the Icelandic Saga movies were filmed the whole cast was from Iceland. (The Viking Sagas (1995) now that's a movie about Vikings. Ain't a horned helmet in the whole thing and they're kick-ass tough guys not wimpy Marvel stupid heroes)

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ozoneocean at 7:20AM, Dec. 20, 2010
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bravo1102
Fortunately for us when Hollywood did a Norse epic it was Ernest Borgnine, Kirk Douglas and Tony Curtis.
…Slavic guys in leather skirts? o_O
bravo1102
I'd rather have Grey aliens.
Than a black man???!!!
Prolly not what you meant, but still…
bravo1102
Icelandic Saga movies
Sagas and eddas are very different things though man.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:37PM
Product Placement at 7:03PM, Dec. 20, 2010
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…Although, at least they don't have horned helmets.
Haha! Well they have dugup horned helmets at sites in Scandinavia… They're bronze and pre-Viking era, but that still makes a real connection. They're meant to be gods that existed before the Vikings came to be afterall. ;)
bravo1102
And Norse gods were often depicted with horned helmets in Norse art and early Teutons may have worn horned helmets (we know Celts did)


Ceremonial! They were ceremonial bronze age helmets. That's 2000 years before Vikings were about. And they were found in Denmark and the first viking tribes originated in Norway. Those helmets didn't have any militaristic value to them, whatsoever.

And those pictures depicting vikings or their gods with horned helmets are from that annoying romanticism era, when people went for what looked like a lovely idea, instead of truth.
Those were my two cents.
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mlai at 8:07PM, Dec. 20, 2010
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I'm all about historical accuracy in period armour (when I'm actually drawing that genre). True history is more entertaining than Hollywood history.

Ok, so it's true that Marvel Aesir isn't real Aesir. I guess I can live with that. Still kind of stupid; I'm just sick of miscasting overall… both pro-white miscasting (Avatar TLA, and King of Fighters which is even more horrible and hilarious than ATLA), and affirmative action miscasting.

FIGHT current chapter: Filling In The Gaps
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ozoneocean at 9:19PM, Dec. 20, 2010
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Ceremonial! They were ceremonial bronze age helmets. That's 2000 years before Vikings were about. And they were found in Denmark and the first viking tribes originated in Norway. Those helmets didn't have any militaristic value to them, whatsoever.
Images and artwork from 600AD Sweden have been found ;)

And the ritual comment? lol!
These are GODs man, not Viking raiders in a smelly boat somewhere. Ritual is sort of what gods are all about.

——————-
It's funny that Scandinavian people are generally put out that Vikings are mis-cast as having horned helmets (which is fine), but then they've used that to go on fatwa against all horned helmet depictions that have any connection to Viking culture what so ever (which is not so fine).
The 1800s Germanic art is just as valid and beautiful as anything else, even with perceived and real inaccuracies.
-And as for bird wings on helmets (NOT Eagle wings because those are far too big), you wouldn't find much from digging up old helmets because they'd have rotted. Points for attaching them would be the best you could find.

And even though the Scandinavians have the closest geographic connection to ancient Viking peoples, really most of Western Europe has some connection- Especially the Normandy coast of France, Northern Britain and Ireland through Viking invasion and settlement as well as Norman migration and invasion.
Actually, even through Saxon, Jute, and Angle settlement and invasion- Northern Germanic peoples with the same culture and gods as their next door neighbours in Sweden and Denmark. ^_^
 
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itsjustaar at 3:04AM, Dec. 21, 2010
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Although I have nothing intelligent to add, my only concern is if the actor is badly miscast. All bets are off if they get one of the Wayans brothers playing one of those guys. I still don't get one of those dude's inclusions in the D&D movie…
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Abt_Nihil at 8:14AM, Dec. 21, 2010
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Um… how is this thread about “Iron Man 3”…?
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Product Placement at 1:42PM, Dec. 21, 2010
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ozoneocean
Images and artwork from 600AD Sweden have been found ;)
This is what a viking helmet found during archelogy digs look like.


Where and when did they find evidence of horned helmets from 600AD and could you please back up that statement?

As for the ritual comment. I studied the old faith. I analyzed the old texts, both in the original language and the modern day version, while being lectured about it by a teacher for 3-4 years. When it came to fashion, our gods were rather modest bunch. Our old ceremonies were no more elaborate then the standard sacrificial offerings and prayers. There were no lavish buildings, dedicated to the religion either; everything was done outside. Elaborately decorated outfits were not part of the package. This phase is very well documented in the Icelandic books, covering the timespan from the 800s well into the 1300s. Now, of course I can't vouch for how things were done before that time but one notable thing about the 800-900 phase is that vikings stopped carving rune stones as a practice. This is why runestones in Iceland are almost unheard of, since it was first settled around that time. It is possible, I'm willing to admit, that some tribes might have used horned helmets for their ceremonies prior to that time but they would have been an exception to the rule.
ozoneocean
It's funny that Scandinavian people are generally put out that Vikings are mis-cast as having horned helmets (which is fine), but then they've used that to go on fatwa against all horned helmet depictions that have any connection to Viking culture what so ever (which is not so fine).
Wait. So you're saying that I'm not allowed to criticize the romanticism definition of vikings, which is responsible for this accursed perception of our helmets being horned? The romantic view of Vikings with horned helmets came from associating them with older bronze age art, that had recently been discovered in Denmark at the time; where warriors with horned helmets could be seen. Again, nothing to do with Vikings. A 200 year old mistake is still a mistake.
Abt_Nihil
Um… how is this thread about “Iron Man 3”…?
It never really was. Although, if anyone's interested; I did hear that the director of the first two Iron Man movies has announced that he won't be directing the third one.
Those were my two cents.
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ayesinback at 4:37PM, Dec. 21, 2010
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I think it's really cool that DD has an honest-to-goodness VVVvvviking expert.

Considering that almost all ancient cultures have been romanticized beyond their original profiles, I think it would be odd if vikings were not. Only guessing, but when the “viking hordes” pillaged a foreign area, the survivors probably described them as demons, impossibly large demons, with horns, even — hence a popular misconception could have been born.

About this thread, I believe it's about obnoxious casting, using Ironman 3 as an example.

Another example: I've always detested the casting in “Interview with a Vampire” the only story Anne Rice wrote that might be considered literature instead of pop scare. Tom Cruise? I mean really, Tom Cruise? And a brooding Brad Pitt?



awright. gotta tend to a sick laptop.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 11:14AM
ozoneocean at 7:16PM, Dec. 21, 2010
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This is what a viking helmet found during archelogy digs look like.
I know. ;)
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Where and when did they find evidence of horned helmets from 600AD and could you please back up that statement?
A few sources- with the changeable nature of the net it's hard to go back to these things from memory, as I'm sure you'd understand!
For now there's reference in the horned helmet section of wiki. Not the best resource I know, but you could always question the people who posted that there.
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As for the ritual comment. I studied the old faith. I analyzed the old texts, both in the original language and the modern day version
I don't dispute your education, but the interesting thing about Viking culture is that although they used crude rune stones they had no real written records of anything. All we know is from external observers (mainly Roman and Arab), and later Scandinavian historians writing some centuries after the Viking age. (mainly Grammaticus and Sturluson)

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Wait. So you're saying that I'm not allowed to criticize the romanticism definition of vikings, which is responsible for this accursed perception of our helmets being horned? The romantic view of Vikings with horned helmets came from associating them with older bronze age art, that had recently been discovered in Denmark at the time; where warriors with horned helmets could be seen. Again, nothing to do with Vikings. A 200 year old mistake is still a mistake.
Most of the romanticist artists had Saxon heritage (and so on) and just as much right to depict the roots of their culture how they chose.
Mostly the art concerned gods and in there “mistake” has little relevance.
-Gods aren't human beings… Although Snorri Sturluson (prose Edda) thought they might have been. But even he believed they were an ancient people. Although historians suspect that the very Christian Surluson was just trying to explain away their divinity.
 
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Product Placement at 9:58PM, Dec. 21, 2010
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ayesinback
Only guessing, but when the “viking hordes” pillaged a foreign area, the survivors probably described them as demons, impossibly large demons, with horns, even — hence a popular misconception could have been born.
People feared vikings, mostly due to bad publicity from France and England. But how did they get that reputation?
Well, the Catholic church forbid trading with non-Christians, leaving Muslims and Norsemen in the cold. While there always were plenty of people willing to overlook that ban others were more picky about who they'd trade with. As a result, Vkings would specialize in what I like to humorously refer to as “aggressive business ventures”. They would send scouts down unexplored territories to investigate aspects like types of people, political structure, defense, viability to trade, etc. Based on what they'd find out, they might do some of the following:
*Establish a long lasting trade route with territories that are rich in goods and willing to trade with them. Those areas would usually be left alone from raiders, since trading would bring more profit, over long term.
*Raid the least protected territories of areas that would refuse to trade with them.
*Hire their services as mercenaries, in conflicted areas, usually to the side that was most likely to win.
*Anything else that was likely to help them bring riches and fame to his homeland.

Now, the funny thing about Catholics is that they tend to horde valuables in a very poorly defended buildings, called monasteries. Attacking a monastery was considered to be one of the most heinous crimes possible among Christians and thus not much effort were put into guarding them. After all, who would think of attacking such a holy place and angering God? Well, in a case where they'd refuse to trade with Viking explorers, I'd say that it would be very likely that they'd see absolutely no fault in that. After all, if the Vikings can't trade with them, they might as well get something out of the trip and they should have thought about defending their valuables better.

So the church did its best to demonize the Vikings and they would often be described as “more beasts then men”. Vikings saw no need in correcting that, since it made them to be sought out mercenaries and they would even take along with them so called “Berserkers”, who would dress up in bear skins to inspire fear in their enemies. After all, you can't buy the type of street cred that the church was providing them with, free of charge ;)
ozoneocean
the interesting thing about Viking culture is that although they used crude rune stones they had no real written records of anything. All we know is from external observers (mainly Roman and Arab), and later Scandinavian historians writing some centuries after the Viking age. (mainly Grammaticus and Sturluson)
Writing with runes was a hard and arduous task. The main limitation to writing, back in those days, was due to lack of good writing material, since paper didn't exist in these parts. The biggest identifiable feature of runes is the fact that it consists only of straight lines and sharp corners, since the primary usage of “drawing” was through carving it on wood and stone. In Norway and Sweden, there are extensive records of runestones that pay tribute to particular people who may have been lost during a viking voyage. Allot of them go something like “This stone was carved in the honor of X, who died during the expedition led by Y and this stone was carved by Z”. The “Z” part is important to note cause relatively few people were credited for making these stones, at any given time. The craftsmanship required to carve a good runestone was possessed by relatively few people and they were greatly sought out, mainly to make tribute stones like those.

The Icelandic sagas were written during the height of the so called “Golden age” of Iceland, when the country was rich in wealth, food and culture. It was the country that stuck with the “viking way”, the longest and the last Nordic country to adopt Christianity (officially it was in 1000 but people were still allowed to practice the old Nordic faith without fear of persecution). Most of our greatest “authors” were part of the richer families, who didn't have to worry themselves about farming to stay alive and thus could pursue loftier goals. They also had relatively easy access to calfskin, which were used to write on. But saying that they were great authors is kinda a stretch and it's more befitting to call them great catalogers. Most of these stories had been preserved through oratory means, where certain families had storytellers, who would recite them from memory and pass it down to the next generation. Oratory record keeping was a tradition among most of the Germanic nations of the time and notable source of such tales being collected and written down are the Icelandic Sagas and the Grimm tales. Our laws were recorded in this manner and recited by a certified “law speaker”.

Granted, people can always argue about how these stories can change through time and the Nordic faith was well on its way to die out, when the Edda's were written but Sturluson's motive to write them was for the very reason to preserve it. He spent years collecting all knowledge of the old faith from the few remaining families who still practiced it and it's very obvious that some of the old tales have been lost. Little is known about the “Vanir” for example, who was another branch of gods. They were known to be gods of beuty and fertility who at some point went into war with the more war like Aesir and were eventually incorporated into the Aesir pantheon. Freyja, for example; the goddess of fertility and love, was a Vanir. Funny enough, we technically had two goddesses of love. Frigg, the Aesir equivalent of goddess of love, was the goddess of marriage, while Freyja was more the goddess of lust and sex. Respectively, you'd be more likely to pray to Freyja for her blessings, while you were pursuing a ladyfriend or while trying to have a child, while you'd pray to Frigg for a good marriage.

But now I've definitely talked about this long enough. What I find funny about this particular thing is how this talk was triggered by me commenting about the lack of horned helms, much to the films credit.
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ozoneocean at 11:21PM, Dec. 21, 2010
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But now I've definitely talked about this long enough.
Haha, yup and I know most of that already, especially about the Vanir from my own reading.
NOT in the original old Icelandic of Sturluson or the Latin of Grammaticus, but I've read it nevertheless.
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What I find funny about this particular thing is how this talk was triggered by me commenting about the lack of horned helms, much to the films credit.
And I still say it's not to their credit either way since these are gods (and crazy reincarnated ones at that) and not the famous Viking men from the sagas :) :P
 
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lefarce at 11:48PM, Dec. 21, 2010
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mlai
http://www.comicvine.com/news/idris-elba-cast-as-heimdall-in-thor-movie/139825/
Wow. A black Norse God. And I thought Avatar Last Airbender had stupid casting choices.

What next, black Hercules? Black Odysseus? Even those are more believable than black Heimdall, because at least those dudes were in the multi-ethnic Mediterranean. Heck, Jesus was really Middle Eastern, after all. Not some pearly-white dude with hippies hair.

But a black Norseman… wtf. I'm told Marvel made some wand-waving explanation about how the Asgardians are all reincarnations, and that's why it's all multi-ethnic up there. Is that true? Might as well have a female Heimdall, then. I'd watch that.

I know what you mean, man. Blacks are terrible and should be shunned from major motion pictures. Whats next, a black superhero? C'mon son. C'mon.

Someone
miscasting

Except it's really called “blind casting” and is a pretty valid practice based on evaluating how well an actor can portray a role rather than matching faces and winding up with someone who isn't best for the part. Avatar was awful not because of the blind casting, but the fact that they cast a bunch of children who couldn't act, half-assed a script, and put a sham in charge of directing the film.


 
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Genejoke at 1:30AM, Dec. 22, 2010
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What I thought was funny about the TLA was that they tried so hard to cram in all that plot into a film and rather than spend time with characterization and pacing the spent ages on the stupidly complex choreography for for the bending power.

Just make a tiny splash of water they had to do a ten minute dance routine.
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DAJB at 1:58AM, Dec. 22, 2010
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lefarce
they cast a bunch of children who couldn't act
The horror … The horror!

If there's one thing guaranteed to put me off a film it's a child actor. There are exceptions, but not many.

US acting schools and/or directors seem to be better at coaxing naturalistic performances out of child actors, but English child actors are especially bad … as soon as they open their mouths it's like the whole film is reduced to the level of a dreadful school nativity play. (And yes, Potter, Weasley and Granger, that includes you!)
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Product Placement at 3:19AM, Dec. 22, 2010
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English child actors are especially bad … as soon as they open their mouths it's like the whole film is reduced to the level of a dreadful school nativity play.
Those were my two cents.
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lefarce at 3:12PM, Dec. 22, 2010
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Blade should have been white.

 
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ayesinback at 5:59PM, Dec. 22, 2010
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lefarce
Blade should have been white.
and ten years old. If the ten year old is a Really Good Actor. And a girl. But only if she's Good.
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ozoneocean at 6:41PM, Dec. 22, 2010
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lefarce
Blade should have been white.
and ten years old. If the ten year old is a Really Good Actor. And a girl. But only if she's Good.
With horns on her head.
 
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lefarce at 12:35PM, Dec. 23, 2010
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“OOGA BOOGA WHERE THE NORSE WOMEN AT?” - Black Heimdall

Someone
Ok, so it's true that Marvel Aesir isn't real Aesir.

Next on Fucking Obvious News a 10… poop comes out of your butt???

 
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JustNoPoint at 4:57PM, Dec. 23, 2010
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I have to say. I don't care if he was white in everything else. Michael Clarke Duncan played an AWESOME Kingpin!

I was at a friend's and had never seen the movie. It was on tv and I saw him and I was like “Holy crap he'd make a good Kingpin. He looks just like him!”

Then I found out I was watching the DareDevil movie and he actually was playing Kingpin in it :P


The Last AirBender didn't happen! IT DIDN'T!!!
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lefarce at 7:49PM, Dec. 23, 2010
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JustNoPoint
The Last AirBender didn't happen! IT DIDN'T!!!

Sorry, it did. And it was bad, for so many hilarious and spectacular reasons.

 
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:34PM

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