Debate and Discussion

Is "Happy Holidays" the new "Merry Christmas"?
JayBlaster at 2:08PM, Dec. 15, 2007
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First off, let me say that I have no religion to call my own, however, this fairly new and heated debate between the different cultures and religions that inhabit my country of Canada has peaked my interest.

I am sort of torn on the subject, personally. On one hand, It's understandable that employees at major chains and malls are asked to wish people “happy holidays”, as opposed to “merry christmas”. Christians aren't the only ones who shop at Wal-Mart, nor are they the only ones with a religious holiday in November/December (I say November because most outlet malls seem to be terribly enthusiastic about the holiday season, and proceed to prepare decorations and music at about half a month too damn early). Jewish folk have Hannukah(possible spelling error), Muslims have Ramadan, the list goes on.
HOWEVER, I am somewhat disturbed about what appears to be the slow takeover of the christian and - if it's safe to say - Canadian tradition of wishing fellow humans a merry Christmas.
Now, it has come to my attention that some people are beginning to think that the well-wish of Merry Christmas is morally unacceptable, and possibly offensive. That's really a shame. I can deal with Happy Holidays in a big social setting such as the checkout of your local Shopper's Drug Mart, but now people are going so far as to begin calling Christmas trees “Holiday” trees, and labelling them as such in stores all over the country? There is a lack of logic here. The idea of the Christmas tree is unique to the Christian faith, and in an attempt to accept all religions, christians are stripped of one of their most famous and important symbols? If you've ever seen one of those billboards that says “Keep the Christ in Christmas”, you'll know what I'm saying automatically. For instance, the Jewish people have menoras. You can pick these up in any place like Wal-Mart, Zellers, anywhere with a big holiday aisle. We call them menoras, everyone calls them menoras. We don't call them “Holiday Candle Holders”. Why? Because they're unique to the Jewish religion. PLUS, Holiday tree just sounds frickin weird. Even to non-religious people. Whose idea was this?
Anyway, there's my opinion. The floor's open to whoever feels the same or different.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:07PM
Aurora Moon at 2:44PM, Dec. 15, 2007
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Actually, the whole christmas tree isn't unique to Christmas.

There was plenty of other winter solistce holidays out there which deocrates the trees. Granted, they weren't tradtionally pine trees, but it was still simlar trees that was used. ever heard of YULE TREES??? So that whole “hoilday tree” thing makes sense to me.

You have to keep in mind that Christmas tradtions as we know it was actually RIPPED OFF from other hoildays.

Did you know that christains didn't even have a “Christmas” thing oringally? Jesus wasn't even born in December (all the records in the original bibles and such has evidence that points to the fact that he was actually born during spring, not winter).
that part was made up later on.
Christmas was oringally created to “counter” the pagan winter solistence known as Yule that was drawing people away from the churches' daily mass at the time. It was also created so that they would draw new believers into the fold. Hence, why they called it Christ MASS.

That's when they started taking little things like the yule tree, from other hoildays for the same reason.

So you can see why some people would conidser it morally wrong, when looking at history that Christains would dare that EVERYONE celerates “Christmas”, as if it's the only one true winter hoilday. When it didn't even start out as a “True Hoilday”, but rather a obivous attempt at drawing crowds into churches during winter.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 11:10AM
JayBlaster at 2:53PM, Dec. 15, 2007
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Tell that to the protesters!
The majority of the people I've encountered who are for the holiday tree idea are angry because it conflicts with their religion. Perhaps if their reasons for anger were more justified, and continued past religious differences, I'd consider their positions more thoughtfully.

I had not, however, been informed of the “yule tree” until today, so thanks for that. I assume that they took the phrase yuletide aswell, or maybe that just evolved into christianity.

EDIT: The christmas tree wasn't the only thing that had bugged me about the whole situation, it was also partly people using offense as leverage, claiming that people who aren't of the christian faith would be offended by Merry Christmas, instead of Happy Holidays. Once again, I haven't met a single person who takes offense to well-wishers.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:07PM
kyupol at 3:00PM, Dec. 15, 2007
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Its all about too much political correctness, my friends. :)

I had a debate before with a Jew about Christmas. The Jew was telling me that Christmas is a Christian Holiday and what about those who arent Christians? Why greet them Merry Christmas?

I told him fine. If you dont think Christmas is a holiday, maybe you prefer working like its a normal day?

'Merry Christmas' is used as a greeting because of goodwill and politeness. I wouldnt mind being greeted ‘happy ramadan’ or ‘happy hannukah’. And I wouldnt mind accepting so-called goodluck charms (for Christians, they like to hang rosaries or crucifixes or pictures of Jesus or Mary in their rooms, cars, office space, etc.) that have religious meaning even though its of a non-Christian religion.



NOW UPDATING!!!
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:25PM
JayBlaster at 3:07PM, Dec. 15, 2007
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My uncle is Jewish and he celebrates christmas with us. I personally look at it as sort of a family day (similar to Dalton McGuinty's bright-assed idea to throw a random holiday in the middle of February - wait, did that sound like I was complaining?). I just side with christians because they like to claim the holiday as their own, and because you don't hear christians complaining about other religious/cultural holidays.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:07PM
Aurora Moon at 3:08PM, Dec. 15, 2007
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Yeah, that's the Crazy politically correct people for you.
They're probably the same morons who got certain words banned in California schools… by words, I mean normal words like “Mom”, “Dad”, “Wife” and “Husband”….

And you know the reason for banning those words in school? They claimed that it was a way to promote diversity, and a way for people to accept gays more…. WTF?

Now, there's plenty of gay people who are moms, dads, and so on forth. and most of the gay people I talked about that topic, said things along the lines of:

“Wow. Good thing I don't live in California. I'd hate to deal with idiots like that.”
“I'm not allowed to say that I'm the father of my son in his school if we were ever to move to California? Even if I'm one of the gay people that they're so worried about ‘protecting’?”

But that's a different topic.

Back on track…. Yeah, you're right. I actually prefer “Happy holidays” over “Merry Christmas”, mainly because I was never big into that whole Santa thing or the Christan aspect of it. But I put up with it mainly because a majority of my family are Christan Lutherans. So I don't get too offended despite the fact that I have a strong preference toward “happy holidays”.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 11:10AM
imshard at 3:15PM, Dec. 15, 2007
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Ah America, the land where the majority religion is shunned in favor of ones practiced by 1% of the population. Happy RamaHanuKwanzMas everybody!




apologies if anybody finds this Offensive
Don't be a stick in the mud traditionalist! Support global warming!

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last edited on July 14, 2011 12:58PM
JayBlaster at 3:27PM, Dec. 15, 2007
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imshard
Ah America, the land where the majority religion is shunned in favor of ones practiced by 1% of the population. Happy RamaHanuKwanzMas everybody!




apologies if anybody finds this Offensive

People always find a way to lighten the mood in any situation. I'd like to see what you do at funerals, ahah.

Anyways, yeah, that whole gay promotion issue is a bit contradictory in itself. Hey, I have something like that. There's this rather arbitrary poster on a wall of my school about some fat chick who fell through a classroom floor because she was morbidly obese, and it gives all this information and reminds you constantly to eat healthy, but at the same time, a health inspector wouldn't hesitate for a second to shut down the cafeteria a floor below…
Their fries taste like a slab of cardboard.

NOW.

If I'm not mistaken, the canadian government has been considering passing a legislature regarding the merry christmas issue, in favour of the christmas protesters(someone tell me right now if it's protestors or protesters. I'm confused.). Now, I'm all for change, but I don't like the idea of religion having that much governmental control. The last time religious folk had a power complex they hanged people for witchcraft. >_>
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:07PM
imshard at 5:00PM, Dec. 15, 2007
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JayBlaster
People always find a way to lighten the mood in any situation. I'd like to see what you do at funerals, ahah.

They love me at funerals, I'm always the morose yet bright-eyed energetic pall-bearer who serves the punch and refreshments.
Don't be a stick in the mud traditionalist! Support global warming!

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last edited on July 14, 2011 12:58PM
JayBlaster at 5:04PM, Dec. 15, 2007
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imshard
They love me at funerals, I'm always the morose yet bright-eyed energetic pall-bearer who serves the punch and refreshments.

I like this guy.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:07PM
bobhhh at 6:08PM, Dec. 15, 2007
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Some people are always going to be a bit uptight about their faith, but this Happy Holidays thing is way out of control. People need to lighten up and stop assuming that everyone who is different from them is putting them down. And i'm not coming down on either side really, I just don't think it should be a big deal how you decide to phrase your best wishes.


Frankly, I think getting upset about someone who is wishing you well sounds nuts. I honestly don't give a poop what words someone uses if they are wishing me good will.

Drink a cup of kindness people.
My name is Bob and I approved this signature.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:29AM
JayBlaster at 6:46PM, Dec. 15, 2007
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Especially when you consider the holiday in question. I mean, I thought the days surrounding christmas were supposed to be about people coming together. Y'know, taking a break from work, school, whatever financial issues you may be concerned with, etc. Even the repo company closes for christmas, and yet, people still find a reason to bicker amongst themselves. I guess some temporary world peace is either impossible or illegal?
Maybe I'm just warped. >_>
I agree though, bob.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:07PM
kyupol at 7:37PM, Dec. 15, 2007
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Instead of bickering about holidays, why not focus attention on these people:





NOW UPDATING!!!
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:25PM
SpANG at 7:57PM, Dec. 15, 2007
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I think a LOT of people take the whole “war on Christmas” crap waaaay too seriously. Please turn off Fox news. Now.

Here's the reason for “Happy Holidays” in the mall or Wal-Mart. M O N E Y. It really has less to do with non-Christian people being sensitive, and more about the amount of people stores can fold into their sales events.

Face it, America is a melting pot with different traditions. So is Canada. The corporations are just trying to bank in on all of them. ;)
“To a rational mind, nothing is inexplicable. Only unexplained.”
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:53PM
Hawk at 8:49PM, Dec. 15, 2007
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Well, I'm one of those people who doesn't pay much heed to political correctness. I'll keep on saying “Merry Christmas”. I kind of hope somebody does get offended from it one of these days, because I'd laugh right at them. Bobhhh is right, it's just foolish. I don't know why I'd ever be upset for somebody wishing me a happy Hanukkah.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:46PM
Aurora Moon at 9:27PM, Dec. 15, 2007
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SpANG
I think a LOT of people take the whole “war on Christmas” crap waaaay too seriously. Please turn off Fox news. Now.

Here's the reason for “Happy Holidays” in the mall or Wal-Mart. M O N E Y. It really has less to do with non-Christian people being sensitive, and more about the amount of people stores can fold into their sales events.

Face it, America is a melting pot with different traditions. So is Canada. The corporations are just trying to bank in on all of them. ;)

that's pretty much true. and this season is commericalized as they get.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 11:10AM
JayBlaster at 9:28PM, Dec. 15, 2007
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SpANG
Here's the reason for “Happy Holidays” in the mall or Wal-Mart. M O N E Y.

I agree, and I don't object to them saying it. It makes sense for other reasons. However, it's still a frickin Christmas Tree. I don't want to change what I call it, I don't want the name of it to be changed. It's only a Christmas tree once a year, and I'm athiest, and it still pisses me off that they're trying to change it.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:07PM
DAJB at 1:38AM, Dec. 16, 2007
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I much prefer Merry/Happy Christmas to Happy Holidays.

Whether you believe in Christ or not, the fact is that Christ is the reason why we have a Christmas. It may not be historically accurate but this is the time of the year that has been chosen to commemorate the birth of Jesus and what most of the Christian world has come to believe he stood for.

Depriving this particular holiday of its meaning in pursit of political correctness is weak-kneed and spineless. I take no offence when Muslims wish me the best for Eid or Hindus offer me best wishes for Diwali, so I find it hard to believe that people of other faiths will take offence at Happy Christmas.

Except, of course, for the ones who happen to be reactionary bigots and in their case, aren't they exactly the kind of people we should be offending?

last edited on July 14, 2011 12:03PM
JayBlaster at 7:24AM, Dec. 16, 2007
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Part of me wishes I started this thread with the arguments people posed afterward..you learn something new every day, I suppose.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:07PM
ozoneocean at 7:56AM, Dec. 16, 2007
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Spang's right, it's corporate America driving that one.

What Aurora says is technically right, but the thing is almost all the traditions that gave Christmas birth were from countries in Europe that are all now Christian themselves- that's sort of why Christianity had to take on those traditions, because that's what the majority of its supporters practised anyway. I very much respect Christianity for continuing with those older traditions, and very positive, good traditions they are too. Very much WORTH continuing!

But even as Spang says that it's the corporations trying to cash in on all the holidays, that doesn't stop people from trying to be crazily political correct themselves (false political correctness), and claiming Christmas is “offensive”… Fuuuuck… (true political correctness is about respecting other cultures, part of it anyway)

Yeah, I've never liked the “Christmas Story” and most of the carols with “god” or “Jesus” in them because most of them sound false, the Christmas story sounds false and sugary sweet, and that's because it all is. But the name of the celebration is older than the Christmas plays, the presents and the celebration are older still of course and even the multi-faceted creature that is Santa-Claus/Father Christmas/whatever is older and more rich in history than Jesus (facets of him anyway), and many other genuine religious figures that people still worship today, so it's worth respecting.

As for non-Christians being offended? That's moronic and illogical. When you go to or live in a country that has always celebrated certain holidays you don't get offended by them unless somebody tells you too, or you're crazy. Man, I deeply respect other culture's holidays myself and am honoured if they give me leave to celebrate them too! The Chinese are very generous with celebrations of the Chinese new year! Ha! Do you think Muslim countries should kill off Rammadan just because some non-Muslims there don't subscribe to it? Hindus should change the name of Diwali? Jebus, a true multicultural country like India, that's been multicultural since before other countries even existed would collapse into civil war if they attempted to homogenise people's cherished cultural holidays.

Respecting other cultures is important, and you should also respect your own as well- because if you think its worthless, others will too.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:29PM
Mister Mxyzptlk at 8:51AM, Dec. 17, 2007
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kyupol
Instead of bickering about holidays, why not focus attention on these people

Because they don't have any money. Money is what this festiver holiday season is all about.

Christmas time is here, by golly,
Disapproval would be folly,
Deck the halls with hunks of holly,
Fill the cup and dont say when.
Kill the turkeys, ducks and chickens,
Mix the punch, drag out the dickens,
Even though the prospect sickens,
Brother, here we go again.

On christmas day you cant get sore,
Your fellow man you must adore,
Theres time to rob him all the more
The other three hundred and sixty-four.

Relations, sparing no expensell
Send some useless old utensil,
Or a matching pen and pencil.
Just the thing I need! how nice!
It doesnt matter how sincere it
Is, nor how heartfelt the spirit,
Sentiment will not endear it,
Whats important is the price.

Hark the herald tribune sings,
Advertising wondrous things.
God rest ye merry, merchants,
May you make the yuletide pay.
Angels we have heard on high
Tell us to go out and buy!

So let the raucous sleigh bells jingle,
Hail our dear old friend kris kringle,
Driving his reindeer across the sky.
Dont stand underneath when they fly by.

My soul was removed to make room for all this sarcasm.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:04PM
Emnoodle at 4:32PM, Dec. 19, 2007
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I am the only Catholic of my closest circle of friends; the others are Christians who have since converted or simply fell away from the faith.

Jess is a pantheist (excuse any misspellings), and Saturnalia was this 17th. (Saturnailia is the pantheist celebration of the Winter Solstice.) Manda is Jewish, and we wished her a happy Hanukkah - I even made an oragami dreidel for her. She wished us ‘mazeltov’ back. Heather and Hayley aren't exactly sure what they believe in. I can understand why some people would prefer ‘Happy Holidays,’ because this encompasses both Saturnalia and Christmas. If you're really enthusiastic about the seasnon, Hanukkah too. (As I'm not sure about when Ramadan is, it is not included. I'd rather not be incorrect.)

On the flip side, as a Catholic, it gets on my nerves when people wish me ‘happy holidays,’ when they clearly mean Christmas. It's not so bad in stores, when I know all they're trying to do is mass-market products; it is the way of business here, and it's become the norm. But when talking to someone personally, it's obvious what they mean. If you were talking to someone you knew to be a practicing Jew, you'd wish them a happy Hanukkah, not happy holidays. If you were adressing a pantheist, you'd say bona Saturnalia, or at least good Solstice or something like that. It takes away something from the good tidings.

I admit, it does tick Manda off when I say “Merry Christmas.” Please note that this is generally because I'm shoving some unwanted item onto her desk and saying the first holiday that comes to mind, I say “merry Christmas.” That's different; I'm trying to give her a(n unwanted) Christmas present.

Aurora Moon
Did you know that christains didn't even have a “Christmas” thing oringally? Jesus wasn't even born in December (all the records in the original bibles and such has evidence that points to the fact that he was actually born during spring, not winter).
that part was made up later on.
Christmas was oringally created to “counter” the pagan winter solistence known as Yule that was drawing people away from the churches' daily mass at the time. It was also created so that they would draw new believers into the fold. Hence, why they called it Christ MASS.

That's when they started taking little things like the yule tree, from other hoildays for the same reason.

So you can see why some people would conidser it morally wrong, when looking at history that Christains would dare that EVERYONE celerates “Christmas”, as if it's the only one true winter hoilday. When it didn't even start out as a “True Hoilday”, but rather a obivous attempt at drawing crowds into churches during winter.
It is a common misconception that Jesus was born on Christmas. That date was set by the Church, more likely than not chosen because of the Yule celbration. And you can't deny that Church leaders were certainly going to evangelize whenever they got the chance. You have to keep in mind, though, that there was a REASON behind the celebration. The date may have been put then for another reason, but the reason to celebrate is still there. For example, when Joan of Arc was cannonized, it was also during a time of reconcilliation between Vatican and Rome. Christmas may have had other motives behind it, but every holiday is set by someone. Does this make such holidays as Thanksgiving and National Talk Like a Pirate Day not ‘true’ holidays? (Well, NTLAP isn't really a holiday. Yet.)

Christmas trees were a pagan tradition, ‘Christianized’ by people. For example, my friend jokes that the reason they get presents on Hanukkah is because all the Jewish people got jealous of the presents Christians were getting.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:21PM
TitanOne at 7:54PM, Dec. 19, 2007
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What's interesting is that if a Jewish friend came up to me in December and said “Happy Hanukkah!”–I would not be offended, I'd be pleased.

Political Correctness isn't about a kinder, gentler society. It's about controlling other people.

kyupol
Its all about too much political correctness, my friends. :)

I had a debate before with a Jew about Christmas. The Jew was telling me that Christmas is a Christian Holiday and what about those who arent Christians? Why greet them Merry Christmas?

I told him fine. If you dont think Christmas is a holiday, maybe you prefer working like its a normal day?

'Merry Christmas' is used as a greeting because of goodwill and politeness. I wouldnt mind being greeted ‘happy ramadan’ or ‘happy hannukah’. And I wouldnt mind accepting so-called goodluck charms (for Christians, they like to hang rosaries or crucifixes or pictures of Jesus or Mary in their rooms, cars, office space, etc.) that have religious meaning even though its of a non-Christian religion.




last edited on July 14, 2011 4:30PM
TitanOne at 8:01PM, Dec. 19, 2007
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SpANG
I think as LOT of people take the whole “war on Christmas” crap waaaay too seriously. Please turn off Fox news. Now.


Well, and that's the other thing. FOX News likes to talk about the “war on Christmas” as a distraction. If there were no “war on Christmas”, Bill O'Reilly might have to get a job as a journalist or something.
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:30PM
ozoneocean at 8:14PM, Dec. 19, 2007
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TitanOne
Political Correctness isn't about a kinder, gentler society. It's about controlling other people.
Noo, that's reversed… The trouble is that the ones who're usually in power to make those sorts of minor policy decisions are two things: not very bright, and into power for its own sake.

They're the ones who give the movement the horrible name and bad image by misrepresenting it.

But beware those who attack and demonise political correctness the hardest; they're as stupid as the aforementioned group, but rather than being into control and power, they generally just after carte-blanche to be prejudiced, racialist, brutal tards.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:29PM
DAJB at 12:36AM, Dec. 20, 2007
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ozoneocean
But beware those who attack and demonise political correctness the hardest; they're as stupid as the aforementioned group, but rather than being into control and power, they generally just after carte-blanche to be prejudiced, racialist, brutal tards.
Oh please, O.O. - I would have expected better from you! Your arguments usually have some reasoning to them but this is one of those sweeping generalisations that clearly has no basis in fact and seems to be designed solely to provoke a response. (And, since I'm responding, it seems to have worked!)

Along with others who have already posted here, I am quite happy to “attack and demonise” political correctness and if you honestly think my generally liberal and tolerant views are in any way similar to those of a “racialist, brutal tard”, you must live in a world very different from mine. In my experience, no matter how well-intentioned its advocates may be, the stupidity of political correctness actually bolsters and feeds ignorance and prejudice.

Oh, and using a word like “tard” is not very politically correct either.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:03PM
TitanOne at 6:13AM, Dec. 20, 2007
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ozoneocean
TitanOne
Political Correctness isn't about a kinder, gentler society. It's about controlling other people.
Noo, that's reversed… The trouble is that the ones who're usually in power to make those sorts of minor policy decisions are two things: not very bright, and into power for its own sake.

They're the ones who give the movement the horrible name and bad image by misrepresenting it.

But beware those who attack and demonise political correctness the hardest; they're as stupid as the aforementioned group, but rather than being into control and power, they generally just after carte-blanche to be prejudiced, racialist, brutal tards.

But you're talking about human nature, not political correctness, which is Thought Control. Orwellianism, essentially. PCism can be found anywhere, left or right now.
The ridiculous moniker “Operation Iraqi Freedom” was essentially politically correct sloganeering.

If people would be decent to each other and polite, there would be no need for such things, and I would say that PCism fuels prejudice and exacerbates it.

last edited on July 14, 2011 4:30PM
ozoneocean at 6:52AM, Dec. 20, 2007
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Hahahahahahahaha!

You're both reacting to the fake PC movement I just outlined. I told you, that's not real PC, it has nothing to do with it, it's just the name that other idiots have given social tampering; misguided, authoritarian iterference in people's lives and customs. That's NOT PC.

It's like calling gun violence and prostitution “Black culture”, like saying “Islam is a terrorist religion”, or that gay people are the same as paedophiles. This is tabloid, columnist, blogger, kiddie level of understanding of the idea, not what it actually is. You're both reacting to the constructivist, demonised, false face of the movement that''s not what it's actually about.

Look, don't worry, I was the same once too, until I actually made the effort to look a bit more into it, and see that what we normally, routinely label and disparage as “political correctness” is really just a strawman for the right.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:29PM
kyupol at 12:48PM, Dec. 20, 2007
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Political correctness was invented in the first place to counter racism and sexism and other forms of discrimination.

The cause was for the good.

However, it ended up as a corrupted ideology somewhere along. No ideology is perfect. It becomes ‘evil’ because of a bunch of fanatics who believe in it.

Now its more of reverse-discrimination and full of hypocricy.
NOW UPDATING!!!
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:25PM
ozoneocean at 2:51PM, Dec. 20, 2007
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kyupol
However, it ended up as a corrupted ideology somewhere along.
No it hasn't. Some idiots take advantage of it to mess things up for everyone else, and whenever they do, the people who complain about it act as if that social interference represents the entire concept:

The extremes always represent the whole, especially for those who aren't aware of the true whole.

It's exactly the same as people calling all Arabs and Muslims terrorists each time some extremist blows himself up, people saying that all police are corrupt murderers whenever some innocent is wrongly shot, or saying that Israel is an evil country each time there's another collective punishment against the whole Palestinian community for the acts of a few: The thing is, the bad apples and extremes don't really represent the whole at all.

Look deeper.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:29PM

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