Debate and Discussion

Is it Racist to laugh off ethnic humor?
meemjar at 9:57PM, March 11, 2010
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I've always been an advocate for civil rights for all.
But I can't help but laugh at bad ethnic jokes.
I love the old cartoons from the 30's & 40's (when I can find them).

I once had this discussion with a man I presume was Afro-American on YOUTUBE concerning banned cartoons:

I said: “In a documentary about these cartoons it was said that no real malice was intended in these animated films. People in those days were simply amused and delighted by the quaint mannerisms, expressions, and idiosyncracies of other cultures and these cartoons simply exaggerated them to a ridiculous level.
As it is, ALL ethnic groups, including Caucasians got made fun of in those days. But nowadays the only cartoons from that time period still allowed on TV are the ones that make fun of the white people. How hypocritical is that?
These days the only place you can find that kind of comedy is on ‘FAMILY GUY’ and on that show it is DELIBERATELY racist to make the point that its still out there and maybe the best way to cope is with humor.”

He replied: “Maybe if it wasn't for the JIM CROWE laws and SEGREGATION laws the Black people would have a better sense of humor about it. As it is these cartoon were yet another indignity they had to endure.”

I replied: “I agree that the minorities have gotten a lot of raw deals in this world. But surely at least some things have changed. Today you are giants in industry, high ranking military men, doctors, lawyers etc. And one of you is now the president.
In fact it was an elderly black man who lived thru that time who said; ”Things are still not a good as they ought to be but they are better than they use to be.“
Words like that are encouraging.
So all in all, don't you think that what with all the grief that is still going on in this world, ethnic jokes and cartoons are the LEAST of our worries.
And we seriously need all the laughs we can get?”

He replied: “Point taken.”


Because really people, sometimes we laugh at ethnic mannerisms not because we are racist but we simply find the ways of others to be charming and endearing!
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:58PM
kyupol at 10:36PM, March 11, 2010
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No. Its not racist to laugh at “ethnic humor” (I'm Filipino btw… and I'm considered a “minority”).

Racism is only racism if it involves hostile behavior such as physical violence or serious verbal threats and harrassment.

But jokes shouldn't be a big deal.

We shouldn't let political correctness go overboard.

You see these kinds of articles almost everyday:

Pupils aged five on hate register: Teachers must log playground taunts for Government database
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1255264/Pupils-aged-hate-register-Teachers-log-playground-taunts-Government-database.html

Two MU students arrested, suspended for cotton balls
http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/stlouiscitycounty/story/C2E855FA8CEE84E6862576DC000AED60?OpenDocument

Barack Obama Joker socialism poster denounced as racist
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/barackobama/5973064/Barack-Obama-Joker-socialism-poster-denounced-as-racist.html

And its not good.

Because I'd rather have to deal with a few nutjob ku klux klan (and their variants in other races… face it. Every racial group has a version of the klan) than an organized, scientific police/nanny state that threatens free speech.

I dont want to live in a society where people are so uptight and the cops get called on the drop of a hat… and everyone else ninnies about every little world they say… because they might offend some chicken neck coward.

Political Correctness was invented by Chairman Mao – the worst mass murderer in history who gets praised by CNN (aka Communist News Network).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyT5rdGri-Q
NOW UPDATING!!!
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:26PM
Dark Pascual at 7:28AM, March 12, 2010
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A civilized conversation on Youtube… go figure…

Now, in one hand, is understandable that some people would find cringe worthy most of those cartoons.

Yeah, probably those weren't done with malice, but there is a clash of values at the moment of analyze them, so it's pretty obvious that some people, analyzing the cartoons under a modern point of view, will find that those are offensive and encourage ethnic stereotypes.

However, the idea of ban those cartoons is ridiculous. I mean, people back then didn't knew better, and I don't think that the creators intended to be mean spirited.

This reminds about the time that Cartoon Network stopped airing the Speedy Gonzales (the coolest of the Looney Toons after Bugs Bunny) cartoons because those were “racially insensitive” (I'm Latin, for the record). That's taking the political correctness too serious…

Political correctness is a noble goal, but if we're gonna ban every single speech or creative work under the fear of offend somebody, we will not be able to say… or do nothing…

So, it's rascist to laugh off ethnic humor?

If it's not mean spirited, then no…
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:07PM
isukun at 8:23AM, March 12, 2010
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While the British hate register is going a bit overboard, The other two examples seem kind of justified to me.

The MU case has nothing to do with ethnic humor. It was done on the last day of Black History Month right before they were going to hold a candle lighting ceremony at that location to celebrate campus unity. It really doesn't take much to see why equating blacks with slaves would be deemed inappropriate in this case. Those kids got what they deserved. Even so, it looks like they won't be getting hit with the felony charges.

The Obama posters have already been covered in another thread, so there isn't much point going into it again.

Cases like these are not that common and, at least for most of the cases in this country, if you read past the headline, they seem pretty well justified.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:05PM
Hawk at 9:30AM, March 12, 2010
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These days it seems like a lot of the ethnic jokes are delivered by people of the very same ethnicity… like, Carlos Mencia making a Latino joke, or Chris Rock making a joke about Black people. In fact, sometimes the ethnic stuff seems like a staple of the stand-up comedians. I don't think that's going to change. It's like what was described in the first post, people being “amused and delighted by the quaint mannerisms, expressions, and idiosyncracies of other cultures” and especially their own cultures. And I agree, it's mostly harmless.

But there are some overtly offensive and hurtful ethnic jokes, it just takes common sense to know when to not laugh or repeat them.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:47PM
kyupol at 9:36AM, March 12, 2010
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The MU case has nothing to do with ethnic humor. It was done on the last day of Black History Month right before they were going to hold a candle lighting ceremony at that location to celebrate campus unity. It really doesn't take much to see why equating blacks with slaves would be deemed inappropriate in this case. Those kids got what they deserved. Even so, it looks like they won't be getting hit with the felony charges.

This is an example of stupidity (the cotton ball thing). I think it should be dealt with by a trip to the principal's office or detention. No need to get law enforcement involved.

If it was spraypainting of messages like “niggers must die” or swastikas, it is justified.

The Barack Obama joker posters are nothing more than FREE SPEECH. Bush as the joker is fine. But Obama as the joker is not ok.

And here's a newsflash for you: I've noticed that “ethnic minorities” are more receptive to the truth about the New World Order agenda than so-called loving white liberals (who seem to be for the war these days just because Obama is in charge).
Obama on Pakistan:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article5575883.ece

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN0132206420070801

So yes. Obama is a JOKE. Obama = Bush.

http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2009/05/19/obama
http://motherjones.com/mojo/2009/03/obamabush

A leader of the local “9-11 truth” group is Tamil. And another one is half-white, half-black. He posted Obama joker posters. I guess he must be a racist for criticizing Obama.

And 80% of the time, whenever I talk to a black person about the New World Order, they nod their head in agreement (especially when I get to the part about police harrassment of blacks and Henry Kissinger and Margaret Sanger) and their eyes light up and look at me like I'm some sort of hero for speaking the truth.

NOW UPDATING!!!
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:26PM
Sea_Cow at 3:59PM, March 12, 2010
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“In another incident last year a six-year-old girl, Sharona Gower, was reported for ‘racist bullying’ at her school near Tunbridge Wells in Kent.

Sharona was chased by two 11-year-old girls, one of whom taunted her that she had chocolate on her face.

The six-year-old responded to one of the girls, who was black: ‘Well, you’ve got chocolate on yours.' ”


I find that hilarious. I am also not racist. Actually, the fact that a 6-year-old was being chased by two 11-year-olds, but was still charged with being racist after retaliating, is kind of disturbing to me. The cotton balls thing was a dick move, but not really worth a criminal record. And as far as the Obama thing, I guess civil rights people generally like him more than Bush.
I am so happy to finally be back home
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:27PM
isukun at 8:21PM, March 12, 2010
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I've noticed that “ethnic minorities” are more receptive to the truth about the New World Order agenda than so-called loving white liberals

I find the NWO crap appeals to people of the lower classes since it takes the responsibility of their situation out of their hands. It's easier to accept poverty when it's someone else's fault. Since many of your minority groups have a disproportionately high percentage of people in the lower classes, it isn't suprising they would be more likely to subscribe to such a theory.

This is an example of stupidity (the cotton ball thing). I think it should be dealt with by a trip to the principal's office or detention. No need to get law enforcement involved.

This is college, not High School. There is no principal or detention. The students are treated like adults, not kids. They are legal adults and stupidity is not an excuse at that point. College campuses are small closed societies. Something like this is more disruptive than it would be in the outside world and it reflects poorly on the school.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:05PM
Ironscarf at 6:30PM, March 13, 2010
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Kyupol
You see these kinds of articles almost everyday:

Pupils aged five on hate register: Teachers must log playground taunts for Government database
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1255264/Pupils-aged-hate-register-Teachers-log-playground-taunts-Government-database.html

Just for the record, no such register exists in Britain, but quoting scare stories from the Daily Mail, whose agenda is entirely politically motivated, doesn't do much to support the legitimacy of your argument.

The point about ‘harmless’ ethnic jokes is that they are too easily put to work as the insidious tools of those who find it necessary to keep their race hate agendas hidden. The National Front found them very useful to their cause over here in the 1970s.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:02PM
meemjar at 9:07PM, March 13, 2010
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Ironscarf.

Are you saying that anybody that laughs off ethnic jokes or cracks them is a closet racist?

Or that just some people will use them as a facade to hide thier real intent?

Some of the most open-minded people see the funny side of human nature and/or cultural nurture and in fact it takes an open mind to be able to laugh at oneself or take lightly the more trivial quirks of being human. :)
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:58PM
ozoneocean at 9:58PM, March 13, 2010
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meemjar
Ironscarf.

Are you saying that anybody that laughs off ethnic jokes or cracks them is a closet racist?

Or that just some people will use them as a facade to hide thier real intent?

Some of the most open-minded people see the funny side of human nature and/or cultural nurture and in fact it takes an open mind to be able to laugh at oneself or take lightly the more trivial quirks of being human. :)

Blah! There are many, many sides to everything Meemjar. ;)

Most genuinely racist humour and actions are pretty obvious. But I tend to think that the worst thing is when you create a climate were people are forced to accept slights and humiliation as if there was nothing wrong with it- told to laugh along with everyone else and if they don't they get criticised and attacked for being “overly” sensitive or for “ruining” everyone else's “fun”.

That's the line with this very subject that you have to tread. ;)

Usually people will speak up for themselves that that's what's happening, but sometimes the climate is such that it makes it hard for them to do that- afraid of being ganged up on by the others.
Now we had JUST that very situation HERE on THIS forum in other old Top Drawer section:

For some reason is started to be funny for people to makes fun of anything to do with being black… It stated off “ironically”, but it just built up and up and up… and the black users of that part of the forum weren't joining in with it, in fact they were visiting that part of the forum less and less. But for the others they apparently didn't “mean it” offensively, it was all in fun… I spoke to some of the black members privately and they confessed that even though they didn't think the guys meant it, it did make them feel uncomfortable and it didn't make the forums that nice a place to be anymore, but they didn't want to say anything.
In the Top Drawer the culture was they people picked on the weakest. If you admitted something worried or disturbed you, you'd become a target. If someone had complained, they wouldn't have been attacked for being black, they'd have been attacked for complaining.

That's
one of the biggest dangers.

Anyway, it was solved by brute force. - We made that type of “humour” a banning offence, didn't matter how it was meant. Just telling people not to do it didn't work until there was a consequence added.
Of course such events were just a symptom of a forum culture that had become toxic and ended with being removed entirely, but that specific episode is notable in this case.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:36PM
Ironscarf at 1:17AM, March 14, 2010
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meemjar
Ironscarf.

Are you saying that anybody that laughs off ethnic jokes or cracks them is a closet racist?

Or that just some people will use them as a facade to hide thier real intent?

Some of the most open-minded people see the funny side of human nature and/or cultural nurture and in fact it takes an open mind to be able to laugh at oneself or take lightly the more trivial quirks of being human.

Everything Ozone just said.

I've been in a position to hear how black people feel about some of the ‘good natured humour’ that's directed at them and as a result I never, ever join in with this kind of thing. Most white people never get to hear this - the reasons Ozone gave for the culture in the Top Drawer also exist in larger society.

Also, have you never wondered why it is always so ‘mildly humorous’ to keep highlighting race in this way? Humour is often about differences it's true, but what are you more likely to hear; jokes about the white guy who is totally different to you, or jokes about the black guy who is almost exactly like you? Some non-racists seem to me to be surprisingly preoccupied with issues of race.

(Edit - Ozone, does your description of the Top Drawer account for some of the extraordinary racist material on LFN? If those guys had been based here in the UK, they could easily have ended up in jail for the stuff they posted there.)
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:02PM
ozoneocean at 3:38AM, March 14, 2010
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Ironscarf
Edit - Ozone, does your description of the Top Drawer account for some of the extraordinary racist material on LFN? If those guys had been based here in the UK, they could easily have ended up in jail for the stuff they posted there.
Probably.
It was never that severe in the Top Drawer, but those guys had a culture of trying to outdo each other with their “jokes” so I can see how things could have escalated. Also, they had this thing where they'd basically just transplant some of the worse stuff from the /b/ section of 4chan and riff on that (which is where the Black stuff probably came from originally), so I wouldn't be surprised if they just continued that way.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:36PM
meemjar at 6:48AM, March 14, 2010
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I understand what you're all saying.
Some would say to the individual making the jokes; “How would you like it if YOU were the one being made fun of?”

Well, maybe some people CAN'T take what they dish out, but I know that I can take it.

One of my favorite cartoons takes a hilarious swipe at MY lineage. It's called ‘My Bunny lies over the ocean.’ Its a Bugs Bunny cartoon where Bugs is in SCOTLAND playing Golf with a Scotsman whose bagpipes Bugs had wrecked mistaking it for a ‘Horrible Monster.’ ROTFLMAO!!

As a person of British descent I for one LOVED it!

In my life I've been hurt by name-calling, but what offended me more was NOT the teasing so much as the double standards that I couldn't hand it back without being berated by the very hypocrits that just moments earlier thought it was ‘SO FUNNY’ when it was being done to me.

So I agree that we should never go ‘below the belt’ but I'm sticking to my guns that if told in the right way, Ethnic humor is the funniest kind.
And like all comedy, it runs the risk of offending somebody or amusing us as it will make us see ourselves as the rest of the world see's us.

And if we can all take it and dish it out, its one way of ‘getting along.’

So if I'm a closet racist, I must be a very odd one, because I sympathise with and respect my fellow man (women too) but that's why I WILL joke with them.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:58PM
Ironscarf at 2:44PM, March 14, 2010
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meemjar
So I agree that we should never go ‘below the belt’ but I'm sticking to my guns that if told in the right way, Ethnic humor is the funniest kind.
And like all comedy, it runs the risk of offending somebody or amusing us as it will make us see ourselves as the rest of the world see's us.

Well you have your philosophy and you're sticking to it - I applaud you. Why should you be forced to drop your favourite ethnic slurs just because some uptight individuals choose to be offended by them?

I see now why you've always been an advocate of civil rights: your rights to belittle any ethnic group you choose, and their rights to have to put up with it. But no, in this world view it's fine for them to ‘dish it out’ in return - that makes it acceptible because you're willing to take what you give?

I'm not calling you a closet racist. You're not in the closet!
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:02PM
meemjar at 3:41PM, March 14, 2010
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I'm no more a racist than anyone else that enjoys ‘Family Guy, South Park, All in the Family, The Jeffersons, Sanford & son etc.

And you might as well call anyone on this thread who defended my statements racist too, even tho’ some are admitted minorities.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:58PM
Ironscarf at 4:15PM, March 14, 2010
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meemjar
And you might as well call anyone on this thread who defended my statements racist too, even tho' some are admitted minorities.

Bring ‘em on - minorities can be racists too, even if they do admit they’re minorities. I'll label them all racists because labelling humor is the funniest kind.
And like all comedy, it runs the risk of offending somebody or amusing us as it will make us see ourselves as the rest of the world see's us.
And if we can all take it and dish it out, its one way of ‘getting along.’

So like you, I'm sticking to my guns, calling you a racist and expecting you to take it in the spirit in which it's intended.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:02PM
ozoneocean at 9:01PM, March 14, 2010
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meemjar
One of my favorite cartoons takes a hilarious swipe at MY lineage. It's called ‘My Bunny lies over the ocean.’ Its a Bugs Bunny cartoon where Bugs is in SCOTLAND playing Golf with a Scotsman whose bagpipes Bugs had wrecked mistaking it for a ‘Horrible Monster.’ ROTFLMAO!!
But you're American, right? That's not really the same thing at all.
It would be if say you moved over to Saudi Arabia or somewhere and became part of a minority American ex-pat community, and the general entertainment for people was to make jokes about “the stupid American”, or “the stupid fat loud mouthed American”, or any variation of that, and you just had to laugh along with the rest or not speak up even if something did offend you because they wouldn't be very tolerant of it if you did.

That'd be a better comparison. :)

The thing is, you just have to be careful about ethnic and culturally based humour, that's all. Make sure it isn't mean, make sure you aren't demeaning people, make sure you aren't creating a situation where you're making them feel less of a human being with less rights than you.
Your examples of those TV shows are wrong. Family Guy draws attention of racist attitudes by showing the kind of idiots that have them. South Park is more complex in attitude (even if the humour is crude), it examines the hypocrisy in received opinion towards a lot of issues for a lot of different angles. The Jeffersons and Sanford & son were culturally pioneering shows for the US in that they featured casts of African Americans, but they had to work around the cultural attitudes off the time to be accepted by the wider community, so to a certain extent they had to play off ethic stereotypes- remember, the prime TV watching public were “white” Americans, there's no way a minority black audience could justify the production and airing of those shows, especially not back then when there were less channels and what channels there were broadcast to many more people.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:36PM
meemjar at 5:53AM, March 15, 2010
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Ozoneocean,

That's precisely the point I've been trying to make.
I've never tried to go below the belt as I've said earlier.
I just take humor in the little quirks of the natures of different cultures.

And I also like how these shows show the stupidity of hard core bigots.
You didn't mention ‘All in the Family’ the #1 comedy of all time.
It clearly made Racist Archie Bunker the butt of the joke.
He ALWAYS made a fool of himself in the end.

I HAVE noticed tho' that its usually more tolerable when a person makes fun of his own culture, Blacks making Black jokes, Jews making Jewish jokes etc.
Look at Chris Rock, Mel Brooks and the lot.

That way I guess they know where the line is drawn and we can all keep it clean and laugh.

Oh, by the way, I'm actually a Canadian. And I've heard plenty of jokes about US. Usually about how dull & boring we are.
And I can't help but smile at the fact that while we are NOT an insipid Nation, we don't have the ‘colorful’ reputation other nations have.

In all fairness I DESPISE out & out Racists. And the very comic I do on this site deals with my protagonist facing prejudice from all sides and punishing the evil ones while salvaging the merely misguided.
At the same time I lace my work with little bits of ethnic humor.
And so far my readers have not taken offence.


So think what you want of me people, the most important thing is for a person to feel comfortable with himself.

And I for one sympathise with my fellow man, but I have no tolerance for fools.
And I always try to see the humorous side of things.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:58PM
Ironscarf at 2:09PM, March 15, 2010
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meemjar
In all fairness I DESPISE out & out Racists. And the very comic I do on this site deals with my protagonist facing prejudice from all sides and punishing the evil ones while salvaging the merely misguided.
At the same time I lace my work with little bits of ethnic humor.
And so far my readers have not taken offence.


So think what you want of me people, the most important thing is for a person to feel comfortable with himself.

And I for one sympathise with my fellow man, but I have no tolerance for fools.
And I always try to see the humorous side of things.

I could hardly proceed without checking out the work you described there (I'm sure you'll gladly suffer a fool long enough to throw a few extra pageviews your way) and your description is a fairly accurate one.

It seems like good work to me - humourous but well thought out and painstakingly drawn, you obviously care about what you're doing and it shows. As for the little bits of ethnic humour you mention, they were more of an undercurrent, but contrary to your assertion, I didn't think they added anything to the humour at all.

At times they seemed incongruous or out of place to me, the sort of thing you might get from an older artist who was still capable of doing great work but was slightly out of step with the times. In other places, they just seemed like laziness - let's throw an ethnic cliche in here instead of taking a look at the people around you. Cliches are easier, but real people are always more interesting/funnier in my experience.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:02PM
Faliat at 6:10PM, March 15, 2010
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I pretty annoyed by the myth that because you're white and you're making a joke about another white nationality doesn't make it racist.

Call that jumped up metal rod a knife?
Watch mine go straight through a kevlar table, and if it dunt do the same to a certain gaixan's skull in my immediate vicinity after, I GET A F*****G REFUND! BUKKO, AH?!

- Rekkiy (NerveWire)
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:25PM
ozoneocean at 10:30PM, March 15, 2010
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Faliat
I pretty annoyed by the myth that because you're white and you're making a joke about another white nationality doesn't make it racist.
It's not a myth it's fact. ;)

“Race” as pertains to reality is a myth. Among actual human beings, there is no such thing, we're just ALL human. Culturally though this idea has been invented that people from particular countries with particular facial features and skin tones are members of certain separate “races”, like “black”, or “Asian” or “white” etc, and those words refer to completely different people from very different countries depending on who in the world is using them. i.e., “Black” in Australia might refer to an Aboriginal person here, the same word can be used by an American to describe an Afro-American person, and it might be used by an Indian to refer to a dark Tamil, etc, etc… “Asian” in America or Australia refers to peoples from South East Asia, whereas in the UK it refers to people from India, Pakistan, Bangladesh and so on.
The words mean different things to different people and nothing at all scientifically.

That said, “racism” does not apply in any way (traditionally) to people of the same “race” from different cultures… We have other terms for that, like “bigotry”. I see that in the modern UK currently the term “racism” IS starting to be used in this way… That's a sliding of meaning due initially to ignorance and small vocabularies of those responsible- not to say you or a lot of the people that are using it that way now are either ignorant or have a small vocabulary, it's just that those that do were the cause of that current process.

It's ironic though that it's making an even bigger nonsense out of a nonsense subject. (the concept of race).
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:36PM
Ironscarf at 3:03AM, March 16, 2010
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Ozoneocean
That said, “racism” does not apply in any way (traditionally) to people of the same “race” from different cultures… We have other terms for that, like “bigotry”. I see that in the modern UK currently the term “racism” IS starting to be used in this way… That's a sliding of meaning due initially to ignorance and small vocabularies of those responsible- not to say you or a lot of the people that are using it that way now are either ignorant or have a small vocabulary, it's just that those that do were the cause of that current process.

I'm not entirely sure what you're driving at there - using the term ‘racist’ for someone who discriminates against a person of their own ‘colour’ from another culture? I'm shooting in the dark there, but the ‘sliding’ of meaning as you put it is the natural process by which language develops and changes: to say that's an abuse of language by the ignorant is pure racism (I'm kidding, it's bigotry, or snobbery, or whatever you like!).

Anyway, I don't see any evidence for this new useage of the term ‘racism’ in the UK, unless of course you can show me a relevant example.
Race isn't a nonesense subject. Concepts of race may bear no relationship to genetic reality, but they're still more than capable of being used to turn otherwise normal citizens into bloodthirsty killers.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:02PM
ozoneocean at 3:21AM, March 16, 2010
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Ironscarf
to say that's an abuse
Ah, but I didn't say that. ;)
I said ignorance and a small vocabulary was the cause of the change, not that the change was good or bad.
Ironscarf
Anyway, I don't see any evidence for this new useage of the term ‘racism’ in the UK, unless of course you can show me a relevant example.
Well their's Faliat's post, intimating that is the case, or at least it's his belief that it is.
But I listen to a LOT of BBC radio 4 and often hear the term used in this way: the traditional abuse of the French by English people described as “racist”, the Aussie term “whinging pom” described as a term of “racist abuse” (not many people agreed with that one), English people doing a Welsh, Scottish or Irish accent being described as racist (that happens a LOT), and generally any bigotry against anyone from another European country is often described in those terms.
Radio 4 tends to be a little more intellectual than a lot of output so it doesn't always represent the mainstream, but you do hear that on the more mainstream parts of it.

“…It's Po-litti-kal Correctness Gorn Mad!” O_o
Ironscarf
Race isn't a nonesense subject.
It is. “Racism” though, is not.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:36PM
Ironscarf at 3:52AM, March 16, 2010
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Ozoneocean
“Ironscarf” Said:
Race isn't a nonesense subject.
It is. “Racism” though, is not.

Well you originally said “the concept of race”, which I would still put into the box marked serious.

Ozoneocean
Ah, but I didn't say that.
I said ignorance and a small vocabulary was the cause of the change, not that the change was good or bad.

Oh yes, so you did! I just took the terms you chose there, such as ignorance, to imply a negative outcome.

I see what you're saying now. In the UK we do now use the term race to describe nationality, calling the Scots a race, Australians a race - I've even heard it used to describe people from different regions of the country as a race. I'm originally a midlander, which makes me a different race to my cockney friends and they don't let me forget it!

I'm not sure it's down to lack of vocabulary though. I wouldn't say me or my friends have a restricted vocabulary; we're using it more as a humourous take on the word, which if I think about it, is kind of recognising the absurdity of the whole concept. I didn't realise this usage was unique to the UK actually, but we do have a tradition of neutralising foolish concepts with humour (Oswald Moseley), so that would follow.

On the other hand, the Nazis reportedly described themselves as the master race and I don't think they were joking.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:02PM
ozoneocean at 4:28AM, March 16, 2010
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Ironscarf
Well you originally said “the concept of race”, which I would still put into the box marked serious.
The concept of race is by nature “racist”. The abuse of people because of that concept is a criminal matter.

Ironscarf
Oh yes, so you did! I just took the terms you chose there, such as ignorance, to imply a negative outcome.
LOL, no, I said:
"That's a sliding of meaning due initially to ignorance and small vocabularies of those responsible- not to say you or a lot of the people that are using it that way now are either ignorant or have a small vocabulary, it's just that those that do were the cause of that current process.“

You've misinterpreted the tone of the whole statement based on a connotation of the word ”ignorance". :)
-But that same situation is the reason we use English now as our written language and not Latin.

Ironscarf
I'm not sure it's down to lack of vocabulary though. I wouldn't say me or my friends have a restricted vocabulary
I wouldn't think that you or your friends did, I said that those who did started the process. Maybe they didn't, I don't know everything.
If the concept is being made a nonsense off in this way, that's not an entirely bad thing, I agree! After-all, bigotry is the same whether initiated by hatred of “race” or nationality, perhaps recognising that will move people further away from the old ideas of “race” finally and recognise that violence and or hate caused by bigotry against anyone is the real problem..

Ironscarf
On the other hand, the Nazis reportedly described themselves as the master race and I don't think they were joking.
That's because they didn't think of themselves as a nationality, they literally thought of themselves (the Germanic people) as a different race from the rest of humanity- not just the way people think of “black” as a race etc. The Nazis thought about the concept absolutely literally… Which is a really, really bad thing for people to do.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:36PM
meemjar at 11:58AM, March 16, 2010
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Ozoneocean,

What you're saying is is that the Nazi's thought the Germans were as apart from the rest of Humanity as the Cro-Magnon man was apart from the Neanderthal.
The Neanderthal was NOT the Cro-Magnons ancestor, he was another species of human altogether and lived beside the Cro-Magnon and was ultimately inferior because he could not survive as the Cro-Magnon did who WAS our ancestor.

Meaning to say, the Nazi's looked down on the rest of Humanity as the Cro-Magnon may have looked down on the Neanderthal.

But NO nation is inferior or superior to another.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:58PM
ozoneocean at 8:22PM, March 16, 2010
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Weeeeeell, sort off…

The Nazis believed that the Germanic peoples were of a superior race of humanity, all others were lessor races that had interbred or something, and the ones they hated most of all were the ones they thought were weakening the Germanic peoples directly by interbreeding with them or others that were perverting them- So that's how they rationalised hatred of the Jewish people who'd been a part of Germany for centuries, the Slavic people who'd shared the countries to the east with them for thousands of years, Gypsies who'd also shared their country with them for hundreds of years, and homosexual people who were “perverting” them etc.

Of course their beliefs were so much shit, as are all beliefs that elevate cultural, national and individual differences to the level of “racial” distinctions.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:36PM
Ironscarf at 8:44PM, March 16, 2010
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meemjar
Meaning to say, the Nazi's looked down on the rest of Humanity as the Cro-Magnon may have looked down on the Neanderthal.

Good example because Cro Magnon and Neanderthal really were different races, whereas the Germans are exactly the same race as the rest of us and the nazis were just propagating ludicrous notions of race.

Didn't this even extend to Hitler believing that the ‘Aryan’ race were descended from the people of Atlantis who were supposed to have (and some people still believe this) travelled the globe teaching everyone how to build pyramids and the like and were thus responsible for the entirity of world culture? It's amazing how stupid racial superiority can make you.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:02PM
Ironscarf at 3:12AM, March 17, 2010
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meemjar
Re-read my post. I SAID that the NAZI'S believed they were a race apart from the rest of us as the Cro-magnons were a race apart from the Neanderthals.
But the cultures of man are NOT races apart.

Fixed!
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:02PM

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