Debate and Discussion

Is Manga art more popular than American art?
maciapaladin at 5:44PM, June 28, 2007
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True, but that is the literal definition of those words.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:50PM
zirnitra at 7:23PM, June 28, 2007
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So why don't we call them that here? It's to differentiate between them and western art.
last edited on July 14, 2011 5:02PM
maciapaladin at 7:53PM, June 28, 2007
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I'm not sure I understand the question. In Japan they call them “manga” and “anime” because those are the Japanese words for “comic” and “animation” and they speak Japanese in Japan. It has become an affectation of Western Cultures when presented with the Japanese versions of these mediums to throw in some “Japinglish” and co-opt these words like they actually mean something specific, which they don't.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:50PM
zirnitra at 9:43PM, June 28, 2007
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People still call it anime and manga here to specify the art style. Most American comics or cartoons are drawn by people in various asian countries, but they are not called anime because they are still drawn with the western style.
last edited on July 14, 2011 5:02PM
maciapaladin at 9:59PM, June 28, 2007
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…And because they don't speak Japanese. Don't mistake a American affectation for proper address. We co-opted the term “Yankees” from the British even though it is derogatory. We have a convention caled “Otakon” when being known as “Otaku” in Japan is actually a grave insult.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:50PM
zirnitra at 12:13AM, June 29, 2007
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maciapaladin
…And because they don't speak Japanese. Don't mistake a American affectation for proper address. We co-opted the term “Yankees” from the British even though it is derogatory. We have a convention caled “Otakon” when being known as “Otaku” in Japan is actually a grave insult.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anime

“Outside Japan, the term most popularly refers to animation originating in Japan. To the West, not all animation is considered anime; and anime is considered a subset of animation.”
last edited on July 14, 2011 5:02PM
maciapaladin at 1:08AM, June 29, 2007
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Thanks for proving my point. Regardless of how it falls into common lexicon, the term is still being used improperly. :)
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:50PM
zirnitra at 2:52AM, June 29, 2007
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If you want to literally translate it as just meaning a cartoon, go right ahead. Just don't expect anyone to not look at you strange when you say “South Park is my favorite anime”.
last edited on July 14, 2011 5:02PM
legomegacy at 5:50AM, July 3, 2007
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another point early Anime such as astro boy was influenced by Betty Boop, Her big eyes and full-figured body made an imppression on artist in Japan. Another example of early art influenced by western/ eastern. I think they have always and well always infuence each other.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:34PM
DemonSaintDante at 6:27AM, July 3, 2007
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When i first started to becoming influenced by outside art i turned to anime because i found it easier to draw than Comics. It wasn't as realistic and detail was not really necessary. Anime also uses fairly basic shapes and the only way to determine who is who is by the hair style and cloths they were.
(this does not follow all anime, some artists i have seen are phenomenal and every character has their own distinct details and they could shave their head and you would know who they were)

As i grow older and become a better artist i tend to go more toward a combination of anime and American comics (such as CIVIL WAR)which relies more heavily on details and realism. Ive found a nice little in between on the two.

I also don't like it when an artist just copies another's style which is becoming more frequent it seems with anime. (whose style is easy to copy) They need to break off and create a style of their own.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:10PM
Alexis at 6:25PM, July 3, 2007
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Labeling art makes it cheap. It limits you. I prefer not to do it.
last edited on July 14, 2011 10:49AM
patrickdevine at 8:43PM, July 3, 2007
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I don't think I can say one is better than the other without being a hypocrite. I mean is my own style Westernized Manga or Manga-fied American? I think the two (albiet very broad) styles influence each other to certain point. Personally, I think Manga's influence on American comics has been making creators think in different directions which is good. But there's some creators that prefer to do straight up emulation which is bad.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:41PM
MagickLorelai at 9:15PM, July 3, 2007
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I wonder, does anyone think that it's possible for someone to draw in a manga style because they enjoy it? And not so much that it's “easier” to draw? Yes, there ARE some anime styles that are blatant emulations of one another, there are also styles that vary greatly within the genre.

:)

last edited on July 14, 2011 1:50PM
Hawk at 11:56PM, July 3, 2007
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MagickLorelai
I wonder, does anyone think that it's possible for someone to draw in a manga style because they enjoy it? And not so much that it's “easier” to draw? Yes, there ARE some anime styles that are blatant emulations of one another, there are also styles that vary greatly within the genre.

:)

I'd imagine a LOT of people draw manga style because they enjoy it. And I'll bet most of them never consciously decided that it was easier to draw.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:46PM
DemonSaintDante at 6:09AM, July 4, 2007
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Well like i stated earlier… some manga artists are phenomenal, you can tell those people have talent and arnt just drawing anime because its easier (in fact i probably couldn't replicate there style)
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:10PM
ccs1989 at 7:43AM, July 4, 2007
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zirnitra
I'm not keen on comparing manga to AMERICAN art though, because manga and anime are a specific art style, whereas American art consists of many different styles. So all in all, I would say American art is more popular.

BULL.

You're saying all of this is the same style?









http://ccs1989.deviantart.com

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last edited on July 14, 2011 11:38AM
DemonSaintDante at 2:56PM, July 4, 2007
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I assumed the art styles we were talking about were hero comics (such as CIVIL WAR)which is based heavily in realism while manga is more childish in detail and tends to exagerate things.

BTW the Hellsing and Cutie comic art is very similar… lol
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:10PM
patrickdevine at 11:15AM, July 7, 2007
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DemonSaintDante
I assumed the art styles we were talking about were hero comics (such as CIVIL WAR)which is based heavily in realism while manga is more childish in detail and tends to exagerate things.

BTW the Hellsing and Cutie comic art is very similar… lol
I wouldn't say simplified detail is childish, (I'm guessing that's what you mean by childish detail,) it's just minimalistic.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:41PM
DemonSaintDante at 5:51PM, July 7, 2007
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yeah they choose to take out all the details that arnt considered attractive and emphasize the things most people first take notice to.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:10PM
Kohdok at 11:26PM, July 7, 2007
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yeah they choose to take out all the details that aren;t considered attractive and emphasize the things most people first take notice to.

That, and the less complex you make a character's face, the more you find yourself able to relate to it, because it doesn't fit into a particular niche. You often see the heroes with very little facial definition compared to the villains in Japanese-styled cartoons (And somewhat in American-styled cartoons as well) I could pull some VERY detailed Japanese characters if you wanted me to.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:20PM
Custard Trout at 11:33PM, July 7, 2007
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I'd say mange art is more popular, but I'm a cynic. I've really never seen the appeal in most types of ‘manga’ or ‘anime’, I really can't, their faces are so freakish and angular, almost every female has the same grotesque shape and face (huge eyes, tiny mouth, no nose) their hair is just. . . disgusting. Don't get me started on ‘anime’ I despise it, hate it with every fibre of my being, every drop of blood seethes with the pure hatred I feel, it not animated, it's just pretty (and I use the word pretty very loosely here) pictures that fucking twitch occasionally, and they're so generic, even the ones that seem original seem to be cunningly built out of cliches and stereotypes, every ‘anime’ I see has the same characters with different names and faces. I will admit there are good ones yes, but it takes a lot to convince me.

I can't say I care much for realistic art either, it's boring. I notice no one in this thread has mentioned other western art? More cartoonish ones such as Ed, Edd And Eddy, that rocked, and the animation was actually animated, like animation should be. Again, there is western art and animation that is just no good, that Doctor Who - The Ultimate Quest seemed to take a page out of ‘How To Be Lazy The Anime Way’.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 11:59AM
Kohdok at 3:05AM, July 8, 2007
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I'd say mange art is more popular, but I'm a cynic. I've really never seen the appeal in most types of ‘manga’ or ‘anime’, I really can't, their faces are so freakish and angular, almost every female has the same grotesque shape and face (huge eyes, tiny mouth, no nose) their hair is just. . . disgusting. Don't get me started on ‘anime’ I despise it, hate it with every fibre of my being, every drop of blood seethes with the pure hatred I feel, it not animated, it's just pretty (and I use the word pretty very loosely here) pictures that fucking twitch occasionally, and they're so generic, even the ones that seem original seem to be cunningly built out of cliches and stereotypes, every ‘anime’ I see has the same characters with different names and faces. I will admit there are good ones yes, but it takes a lot to convince me.

Someone probably hasn't watched “Akira”…And maybe watched too much Dragon Ball Z. I know how Dragon Ball Z can destroy faith in the medium (No offense to DBZ fans), but I'm sure I can find enough anime that doesn't fit your description to demonstrate otherwise. You need round faces and normally-sized eyes?: pick up Great Teacher Onizuka. Want one that has lots of radical animation?: The aforementioned Akira fits the bill perfectly.

Also, even the Japanese know that Anime can get a little generic; shows like Lucky Star and Nuku Nuku make tons of jokes based on those cliches.

As for me, I think one of the reasons that Manga have such an appeal is, like I have already said, they do not rely heavily on a single genre like many American comics and cartoons do (Though not quite as much today, but in the past…). Manga and Anime have a wide variety of genres and target audiences, so it's not uncommon for somebody to find something in the mangaverse that they like. Even you admit that there are good ones, so something out there obviously has an appeal to you or you wouldn't have said that.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:20PM
Custard Trout at 3:30AM, July 8, 2007
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Kohdok
Stuff

Somebody actually has it on DVD.

It's mostly those horrible things with the angular heads, they actually make me feel a bit sick, and I watched someone drain pus out of a blister and then drink it and I thought that was funny. You'll also notice that I said very few, the only anime series I've ever liked even slightly was Cowboy Bebop, and I hated most episodes of that, and the only films I can think of off the top of my head are Akira (which is great) and Howl's Moving Castle (actually based of a story written by Welsh author). And I disliked the animation in those too, but I was willing to put up with it.

I think my opinion of it in general was soured because my brother's one of those ‘worship the Japanese, their buttocks are holy, and I will buy things purely because they come from Japan’ type people, and his bloody DVDs keep me up at night, which is why I knew so much about Full Metal Alchemist despite the fact that I can't stand it at all, but my previous statements still stand, I regret nothing.

Edit: Great Teacher Onizuka? I think I have seen that, is that the one with the big guy who turns out to be a cockroach? If so, it were crap.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 11:59AM
Kohdok at 4:57AM, July 8, 2007
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Custard Trout
More stuff

Ouch. I got over that trend really fast. FMA would also sour one's opinions on anime (I personally hate FMA; got sick of it after 5 episodes). Have you gotten your brother to buy some headphones? I at least turn the volume down at night (Or wear headphones).

BTW, I'm pretty sure what you mentioned doesn't happen in GTO. I think…
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:20PM
DemonSaintDante at 5:08AM, July 8, 2007
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Fans also usually destroy anybody from liking anime… they tend to freak out a little whether it be joy or anger. You ever been mobbed by a horde of happy anime fans because you picked up a manga… or swarmed because you said you didn't like a particular manga.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:10PM
Aurora Moon at 11:08AM, July 8, 2007
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Fans also usually destroy anybody from liking anime…
they tend to freak out a little whether it be joy or anger.
You ever been mobbed by a horde of happy anime fans because you picked up a manga…
or swarmed because you said you didn't like a particular manga.

Funny, I get that same reaction with crazed American comic/cartoons fans.
“OMFG!! you didn't like Spiderman/superman/whatever comics?! You're so evil you must die!!”
“What?! You hate Eddy, Ed, and whatever else? grr but the ED boys ROCKS!!!! grr grr grr..”

I honestly think that both sides has their own over-crazed fans, and while those crazed fans have
soured my opinion on certain comic books and cartoons…. at the same time I try not to let people
ruin some things for me. I want to give some things a fair chance before I can outright bash it.

For example, I was a little bit skeptical about the Sandman series (an comic book created by an American) because
of how there was this super annoying person who kept on going about it… and he almost made me want to completely
hate it even though I had never tried getting into it and only looked at some of the artwork. some of the artworks
almost looked like that same tired old “marvel/DC” style as any superman/spiderman style.
But I dediced to get a full knowledge of it before I would bash it, just so that I wouldn't be one of those people
who would irrationally hate something without actual reason just because people were annoying me with it. And to
my surprise, I actually ended up being an fan of Sandman, despite the fact that there's insane annoying fans of the genre.

So the moral is? Don't let annoying people rule your opinions on something, even if you don't think they rule your opinion.
However if you hate something just because they were super hardcore annoying about it, that's called them dictating your actions.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 11:10AM
DemonSaintDante at 4:52PM, July 8, 2007
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Ive been wanting to pick up SANDMAN for a while… but I've been to cheap and lazy… another person telling me its great and sad me sitting here still not having read it… lol
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:10PM
EmilyTheStrange at 4:18AM, July 10, 2007
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I think it depends on who you ask.

If you see a 16 year old girl leave a comic book shop and ask her what she bought, its most likely a manga.

If you see a 30 year old guy leave a comic book shop and ask him what he bought, its most likely a marvel/DC comic.

Of course those are just vast over generalizations, but being a 16 year old girl, most people my own age I know who are into comics are into manga. And I can see why it apeals to people my age. In Shojo manga theres cutsy little romance stories with beautiful characters and in Shonen theres strong heros who fight the forces of evil with their friends or a pretty girl. I think the draw to these comics is that they're much easier to relate to than Marvel or DC stories. Like in Bleach, for example, the main character/hero is just a high school student. He has a crazy family and has to go to school everyday. That is a little more relateable to the average kid than a larger than life super hero with buldging muscles who's coworkers never question why they suddenly leave everytime something evil happens only to return after its been defeted. American comic heros were really popular in the 1940s-1960s because society wanted things to be larger than life. They thought in a few short years all their cars would fly and they'd have robot maids (remember this is the generation that came up with The Jetsons.) In the 1970s after Vietnam, people were starting to get more realistic about the world so they came up with Spiderman, the loveable nerd who happened to have superpowers. Spiderman, obviously, is still quite popular today and I believe this is because he is relateable and this is why I feel manga is popular, because its easier to relate to the characters.

Even in the most sci-fi, high fantasy, or horror manga the character's actions and personalities still seem more relateable than any American comic character's I've seen.

Personally I like manga better, thanks to the reasons stated above, but I like amerimanga even more. Amerimanga= fusion style between steriotypical manga styles and DC/Marvel and/or American cartoon styles. You can get some pretty intersting effects with it. I consider my style Amerimanga because I use manga proportions (6 heads high as opposed to 8) and bigger eyes (no shines though… or pupils for that matter) but my style's also influenced by Butch Hartman's style with big thick outlines around characters and cartoony expressions. I think that as time goes on Amerimanga will become very popular because its a fusion of two country's distink “styles” because in America different cultures tend to blend into each other. ^_^

…in America. >>
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:21PM
MagickLorelai at 2:33PM, July 10, 2007
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EmilyTheStrange
Personally I like manga better, thanks to the reasons stated above, but I like amerimanga even more. Amerimanga= fusion style between steriotypical manga styles and DC/Marvel and/or American cartoon styles. You can get some pretty intersting effects with it. I consider my style Amerimanga because I use manga proportions (6 heads high as opposed to 8) and bigger eyes (no shines though… or pupils for that matter) but my style's also influenced by Butch Hartman's style with big thick outlines around characters and cartoony expressions. I think that as time goes on Amerimanga will become very popular because its a fusion of two country's distink “styles” because in America different cultures tend to blend into each other. ^_^

…in America. >>

Yanno, I agree. I dunno how much of a fusion my art style is with american cartoon/comic styles, but I've been told there's a heavy Disney influence, and I certainly don't have a perfectly manga/anime style. I like seeing the forms fused, someone taking the existing artforms and adapting them with their own interests. People who emulate the popular manga, end up having comics that look pretty(relative to the person who likes it or doesn't) but have no originality in style.

People who can't stand the manga style, are repulsed by it, well…that's individual taste, and you're entitled to it. I don't think anyone needs to justify why they like it any more than someone has to justify why they DON'T. If it's not your thing, it's not your thing. If it is, then stop telling everyone else to like it.

And a message out there for the Japanese-are-the-best-Americans-suck crowd: Knock it off. That behavior is annoying. Stop trying to pretend you're elite for liking something from another country. :)

Also, Emily? Was that last line a reference to Yu-Gi-Oh: The Abridged Series?

last edited on July 14, 2011 1:50PM
EmilyTheStrange at 5:26PM, July 10, 2007
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Also, Emily? Was that last line a reference to Yu-Gi-Oh: The Abridged Series?

Ooooooooooooooooooooooooh yeah. :3
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:21PM

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