Debate and Discussion

is obama the anti-christ?
umbledijum at 2:07PM, May 5, 2009
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frankly, he's lived up to some of the telltale signs, Although a lot of people before him have also, and we-e-elll…

i'm not saying he is or isn't. To be honest i think he isn't. I just wanna see what you guys think.

also, i do NOT want anyone PQ'ing me calling a racist and/or religious nut. I'm just interested in people's opinions.
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:36PM
Hyena H_ll at 2:08PM, May 5, 2009
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No.

last edited on July 14, 2011 12:52PM
umbledijum at 2:20PM, May 5, 2009
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Hyena H_ll
No.



fair enough *shrugs*
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:36PM
Chernobog at 2:20PM, May 5, 2009
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>.>
This sort of allegation is absolutely ancient. You can find any number of identical charges to whatever circumstances to this end throughout history. Seems to me a person can justify anything if they really have a mind to insist on it and a lot of folks out there like to consider their paranoid opinions and suspicions to be the essence of fact.

In short, hardly.
 
 
“You tell yourself to just
enjoy the process,” he added. “That whether you succeed or fail, win or
lose, it will be fine. You pretend to be Zen. You adopt detachment, and
ironic humor, while secretly praying for a miracle.”
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:41AM
Kilre at 3:22PM, May 5, 2009
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Hyena H_ll
No.



This.

There's no logical evidence for it.

There's lots of illogical evidence, however. Go read the Bible for the mountains of illogical evidence it provides.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:15PM
Hawk at 3:32PM, May 5, 2009
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umbledijum - Here is how to make your topic a discussion:

Provide evidence. Talk about these “telltale signs” you mentioned. Give people a reason to think about the topic. For instance, if you wanted to debate whether or not the tomato is a fruit, you'd probably specifically mention scientific criteria used to classify produce, or the trade embargoes that affected the plant's classification. As it stands, you've left us with no fuel for discussion.

Care to elaborate a little more on what you're talking about?
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:46PM
kyupol at 4:35PM, May 5, 2009
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I don't believe Obama is the anti-christ. Why?

- He's just a puppet. As demonstrated by his oppo-sameness with George Bush.
http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=obama+backs+bush&meta=&aq=f&oq=

Its the guys behind him who pull the strings. People like Rahm Emmanuel, Henry Kissinger, Zbignew Brezinski, etc. (who elected them btw?!?)

- He's public. The bible says that the anti-christ is a deceiver.
2 John 1:7-8 (New International Version)
7Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist. 8Watch out that you do not lose what you have worked for, but that you may be rewarded fully.
Yeah Obama is slick. Yeah he's a deceiver (see film Obama Deception). But I still highly doubt his ability to project power. As demonstrated by his approval ratings.
http://www.gallup.com/poll/113980/Gallup-Daily-Obama-Job-Approval.aspx
Notice the “disapprove”. From 12% to 27%.

God knows who the real anti-christ is. What if he/she/they're still lurking in the shadows?

And what if the anti-christ is really a group of people? I'm not an expert on languages but I know for sure that there's been mistranslations during all those years as the bible was handed down through the ages and made to conform to the political climate of the era… and corrupted as a tool for control by the elites.

No wonder the bible is heavily debated on what each verse means and what version is the real one. Every denomination of Christianity claims that the version of the bible that they follow is the real deal.

What if it really was in the plural tense?

Because I noticed that the American Standard Bible:
For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist.

um… those? and then this? Those is plural. While This is singular.

And the King James Bible:
2 John 1:7-8 (King James Version)

7For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
8Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.

Many Deceivers? “A” and “an” doesn't equal to “THE”.



What if the anti-christ is really the group that consists of the Bilderbergers, the Council on Foreign Relations, the Trilateral Commision, Skull and Bones, and various secret societies?

God knows.
NOW UPDATING!!!
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:26PM
Croi Dhubh at 4:44PM, May 5, 2009
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He's popular, hides his habits to keep himself in a good light when thinks they are bad, has great speaking ability, and claims to be one religion when there is a lot of speculation he is actually what many feel is an opposite religion.

That's…about it… Now if he were to be allegedly assassinated and “raise from the dead”, rebuild the temple for the Jews…then yeah, I'd say watch the skies. However, at this time, no, I don't think he's the anti-christ.


Just so you know, Kyupol, the anti-christ is a puppet, too
Liberate Tutemae Ex Inferis
Moderatio est Figmentum: Educatio est Omnium Efficacissima Forma Rebellionis

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last edited on July 14, 2011 11:55AM
Product Placement at 5:01PM, May 5, 2009
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That title alone makes me dizzy. How can anyone make such a ludicrous claim? Like it's already been stated, you fail to provide us with any support of your “claim”. you tell us that he has the “telltale signs” but don't even tell us what they are. What are the signs of the anti Christ? That he's charismatic? That he wants people to follow him? Encourages people to doubt their faith? If you start pointing fingers at everyone who can move people with a clever speech then I'd think that your list of suspects might end up a bit longer then you think.
Those were my two cents.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 2:50PM
umbledijum at 5:45PM, May 5, 2009
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well, as it's already been said, anyone who can wrap the voters around his finger that slyly can't be up to much good. Then again, there have been tons of presidents who have matched and exceeded his ability to manipulate.

It does say in the bible that the anti-christ was gonna be a smooth talker.

But in reality, he probably isn't evil. Given, he's an idiot, but not neccesarily evil.

It also said he would be handsome and powerful. Once again, probably not evil.

There's my two cents. I apologize for any misgivings and/or un-thoroughness. I'm relatively new to the forums and thought i would add a touch of Obama-drama to the debate forum.

As a note, the good 'ol B-I-B-L-E never said anything about him being good in bed.
(just kidding ;])
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:36PM
Kristen Gudsnuk at 11:12PM, May 5, 2009
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kyupol
People like Rahm Emmanuel

omg this guy's going to be my commencement speaker! (I wish we had Conan O'Brien) who IS he?? kyupol makes him sound evil, but hey, it's kyupol after all ;o
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:22PM
Hyena H_ll at 4:15AM, May 6, 2009
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To elaborate on my brusque post from earlier:

The whole antichrist thing, in general, is arguably apocryphal. The only mention of the character appears in Revelations, which is definitely the most sketchy chapter of the New Testament as far as its origin goes. It almost wasn't included in the canonical Bible as we know it today. It's jarringly different in tone and writing style from the rest of the New Testament; chronologically, it was probably the last book to be written, and scholars are still arguing which John, exactly, authored it.

Historically, John of Patmos was referring to the politics of his day. The Apocalyptic theme wasn't exactly born from his text, either- in troubled times, its been documented that these kinds of “end of days” cults spring up. Mostly it functions to provide hope to oppressed peoples in troubled times; it's much easier to endure that sort of burden/ misfortune/ etc. if you feel you are one of the righteous minority, living in the midst of an evil empire which is destined for inevitable destruction and divine punishment. Likewise, it brings hope to believe you will be rewarded. This can also serve as a catalyst and/or excuse for social uprisings, the take-overs of governments, or military campaigns- sometimes by political design, sometimes born of an anarchic frenzy.

And a lot of the mythology surrounding the figure of the antichrist does not actually appear in the text of Revelations, but was developed and elaborated on in the Middle Ages. There's been countless “antichrists”- not just in the Christian faith. And when you think about it, the “tell-tale signs” can be ascribed to any successful leader.

And lastly- Dude. Come on. If Nero (the “original” antichrist, by the way), any of those sketchy-ass medieval popes, Martin Luther, Napoleon, Hitler, Kennedy, Castro, etc. weren't the antichrist, I really doubt that Obama is.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:52PM
Hyena H_ll at 4:28AM, May 6, 2009
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Kristen Gudsnuk
kyupol
People like Rahm Emmanuel

omg this guy's going to be my commencement speaker! (I wish we had Conan O'Brien) who IS he?? kyupol makes him sound evil, but hey, it's kyupol after all ;o
He's the Whitehouse Chief of Staff. Before that, he was a representative for Illinois, and and a top strategist for the Dems. He manages the White House's staff and the president's schedule, arranges meetings and whatnot.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:52PM
ozoneocean at 4:51AM, May 6, 2009
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Hyena H_ll
And a lot of the mythology surrounding the figure of the antichrist does not actually appear in the text of Revelations, but was developed and elaborated on in the Middle Ages. There's been countless “antichrists”- not just in the Christian faith. And when you think about it, the “tell-tale signs” can be ascribed to any successful leader.
One of the most famous was one of the popes wasn't it? During the time when the catholic church was split and they had 2 popes….

Basically it's charming anachronistic mythology. But only real morons believe that stuff now. If people are religious I support them in that fully and celebrate it, but if you believe the devil is about the world stalking and causing strife and satanic witches are corrupting people and demons can posses you… Well then you're an idiot. The world has moved on, that sort of dangerous niavite has no place anywhere any more, not in the modern world, not in modern religion, nowhere.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:34PM
Hyena H_ll at 5:09AM, May 6, 2009
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ozoneocean
During the time when the catholic church was split and they had 2 popes….
Heh. Briefly in the late 14th/early 15th century, there were three popes!
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:52PM
Polkster at 5:17AM, May 6, 2009
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I like how everyone here is arguing on the presumption that Bible = fact.

How about, “No, Obama is not the antichrist because that's a perfectly ridiculous notion.” Anyone wanna give that one a shot?
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:47PM
Hyena H_ll at 5:59AM, May 6, 2009
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Polkster
How about, “No, Obama is not the antichrist because that's a perfectly ridiculous notion.” Anyone wanna give that one a shot?
Dude, that's pretty much what everyone is saying.

And the Bible's relevant in the discussion because the antichrist only exists in a Biblical context. If you don't believe in the Bible as divine word or prophesy, then there is no such thing as the antichrist. If you view the text as a historical document or a mere set of rules and stories invented by man to give substance and authority to a religion, then there is no antichrist. If there is no antichrist, then this discussion is pretty much moot.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:52PM
Kilre at 6:48AM, May 6, 2009
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Polkster
I like how everyone here is arguing on the presumption that Bible = fact.

How about, “No, Obama is not the antichrist because that's a perfectly ridiculous notion.” Anyone wanna give that one a shot?

You have to admit it's an interesting myth, if only in the grand scheme of things. At the least, it's good for a few laughs at someone's expense.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:15PM
kyupol at 6:52AM, May 6, 2009
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kyupol
People like Rahm Emmanuel

omg this guy's going to be my commencement speaker! (I wish we had Conan O'Brien) who IS he?? kyupol makes him sound evil, but hey, it's kyupol after all ;o

Get to know this Rahm Emanuel.

Rahm Emanuel on the opportunities of crisis.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_mzcbXi1Tkk
“The crisis provides us the opportunity to do things we cannot do before…”

Rahm Emanuel wants to grab your guns.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vp7f1QKYmg
“There's no right to own a gun if you are in the no fly list”. Wtf. Millions of people are wrongly on the no fly list.
Even children.

Rahm Emanuel wants a draft.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtDSwyCPEsQ

He is a police state enabler. He is a demon from hell. Just look at his eyes. This guy is a demon from the deepest pits of hell.

I like how everyone here is arguing on the presumption that Bible = fact.

The bible has scientific accuracies:
http://www.carm.org/christianity/bible/scientific-accuracies-bible

The bible also talks about the chakras and other spiritual concepts that aren't really much talked about in church.
The bible on the chakras.
Revelation 1:20
20The mystery of the seven stars that you saw in my right hand and of the seven golden lampstands is this: The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches.

The bible on ascension.
2 Kings 2:11
11And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

The bible on the 3rd eye.
Matthew 6:22
22The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.


The bible is fact. However, I also do not deny that it was used as a method of control by the elites. And I do not deny the wrongdoings of religious institutions like the inquisition and the crusades that atheists mention in order to back up their argument that religion causes death and destruction.

I apologize to church-goers here but I really think that the most effective way to understand the bible is by reading it yourself and not relying on a middle man. I'm not saying your pastor is bad and is DELIBERATELY out to mislead you. I'm only trying to say that there are things that you might notice but your pastor failed to see by virtue of human error. Your pastor is just human and is prone to error.

NOW UPDATING!!!
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:26PM
ozoneocean at 7:10AM, May 6, 2009
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Hyena H_ll
ozoneocean
During the time when the catholic church was split and they had 2 popes….
Heh. Briefly in the late 14th/early 15th century, there were three popes!
yeah, I'd read about that somewhere… I didn't remember it well enough to write it down in case I was remembering wrong though :)
I do that a lot…
kyupol
I apologize to church-goers here but I really think that the most effective way to understand the bible is by reading it yourself and not relying on a middle man. I'm not saying your pastor is bad and is DELIBERATELY out to mislead you. I'm only trying to say that there are things that you might notice but your pastor failed to see by virtue of human error. Your pastor is just human and is prone to error.
You know what Kyupol? Those sorts of statements have been the founding words of many a breakaway Christian sect throughout history. When it wasn't a disagreement of scriptural interpretation by elites, it was usually “oh you have lost touch with the true word of god etc, etc, blah, blah blah…” -so they started their own new movements and eventually became more of the hidebound institutions you're railing about now. :)

-One thing most of them had in common was a move away from more enlightened interpretations of much of their texts and a move BACK to superstitious literalism. The trouble is that you NEED educated middlemen between you and the tenants of your faith because they've done the study, they understand the stuff. They're the true guardians of the religion. Normal people don't understand it, they don't have the background. That's why idiot beliefs in demons etc persist- all the movements and people that think the bible is some sort of primary source. It's not -_-
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:34PM
Kilre at 7:10AM, May 6, 2009
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kyupol
The bible is fact.



Bullshit.

It's no more fact than any other work of fiction, written after hundreds of years of oral tradition that altered the original myths, and even then subject to revisions that further separated it from reality.

The flood? Nothing on earth proves it ever happened if you actually study the geological record. Adam and Eve? The only evidence that supports their existence is in the bible. Jesus? There were umpteen other preachers at his time, all claiming holy influence, and the gospels don't even agree on the important parts of the myth.

For instance, http://www.progressiveu.org/213837-skeptical-bible-study-matthews-messianic-prophecies

It's not even accurate historically.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:15PM
Monstro at 7:13AM, May 6, 2009
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my mother keeps saying something about “the anti-christ will suffer a mortal head womb, then live again”… something like that, Christians these days, you can never understand what they're saying.

Obama isn't the anti-christ, he's just another idiot America elected into the white house. :/
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:07PM
ozoneocean at 7:20AM, May 6, 2009
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Kilre
It's no more fact than any other work of fiction…
That's just as inaccurate as Kyupol's statement. It's not a primary source for anything but itself, but it's not “ a work of fiction” either. There are a lot of historical occurrences recorded in the books of the bible alongside the traditional religious mythology, and it's an extremely important document for the history and development of Western culture.

Not to mention how useful it is as a window on the practices of the peoples, events, and some of the personalities during periods more contemporary to the time of its own creation.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:34PM
Product Placement at 7:28AM, May 6, 2009
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Monstro
“the anti-christ will suffer a mortal head womb, then live again”
Guess that rules out Kennedy and Lincoln.
Those were my two cents.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 2:50PM
Kilre at 7:32AM, May 6, 2009
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ozoneocean
Kilre
It's no more fact than any other work of fiction…
That's just as inaccurate as Kyupol's statement. It's not a primary source for anything but itself, but it's not “ a work of fiction” either. There are a lot of historical occurrences recorded in the books of the bible alongside the traditional religious mythology, and it's an extremely important document for the history and development of Western culture.

I will grant that, but there are many “historical events” that are skewed so far as to make them not historical at all, but fiction. For example, the reason Mary and Joseph traveled to Bethlehem is contrived as a way to get the character of Jesus into line with the ancient prophecies.

I will amend my earlier statement to that of “historical fiction”, considering all the glaring inaccuracies.

But I will not disagree with your last statement; it was indeed important to the founding of Christendom as we know it.


ozoneocean
Not to mention how useful it is as a window on the practices of the peoples, events, and some of the personalities during periods more contemporary to the time of its own creation.

Frankly, the characters scare me in their zealousness.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:15PM
Kristen Gudsnuk at 8:18AM, May 6, 2009
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kyupol
The bible has scientific accuracies


yeah, earth is 6,000 years old. There were no dinosaurs. Lazarus rose from the dead. Samson loses his strength when his hair is cut off, and kills an army with an ass' jawbone, and kills thousands of people by knocking down a theater with his bare hands.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:23PM
kyupol at 8:49AM, May 6, 2009
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You know what Kyupol? Those sorts of statements have been the founding words of many a breakaway Christian sect throughout history.

I do not intend to start my own sect. Organized religion is prone to infiltration and corruption.

Besides, putting a name on your dogma only serves to put barriers on your mind. Oh if you call yourself a (insert religion here), you should believe that or else you go to hell!!!.

yeah, earth is 6,000 years old

Tell me the bible verse that says that.

This planet and human civilization is alot older than what mainstream scientific and religious institutions claim.

For one, google “OOPARTS”.




NOW UPDATING!!!
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:26PM
lefarce at 9:28AM, May 6, 2009
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I dont believe him to be the anti-christ anymore that I believe this to be the end times. Every generation has thought it's self to be the last.

For that matter Revelations is commonly mistaken to be a prophecy of the end times, when in reality it's a very vivid history of Nero Ceasar (his name translates to 666 - fun fact). So dont fret you crazy kids, the anti-christ and four horsemen are all just hoo-hah that was used to describe events that happened hundreds and hundreds of years ago.

You should worry about us nuking each other off the planet well before Obama tries to tell us to all brand ourselves for him.

 
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:33PM
Kristen Gudsnuk at 9:57AM, May 6, 2009
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yeah, earth is 6,000 years old

kyupol
Tell me the bible verse that says that.




copied from a website:

Given the fact that, according to the Bible, Adam was created on the sixth day of our planet’s existence, we can determine a biblically-based, approximate age for the earth by looking at the chronological details of the human race. This assumes that the Genesis account is accurate, that the six days of creation described in Genesis were literal 24-hour periods, and that there were no ambiguous chronological gaps.

The genealogies listed in Genesis chapters 5 and 11 provide the age at which Adam and his descendants each fathered the next generation in a successive ancestral line from Adam to Abraham. By determining where Abraham fits into history chronologically and by adding up the ages provided in Genesis 5 and 11, it becomes apparent that the Bible teaches the earth to be about 6,000 years old, give or take a few hundred years.

but heck, don't ask me about religion; I'm an atheist through and through.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:23PM
umbledijum at 1:22PM, May 6, 2009
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So far the general concensus on this topic is (scratch that, the absolute concensus) is no.

At first i thought i would get mostly a few hell no's at at least one calling me an idiot for even bringing up the subject. But so far, this has been a interesting and stimulating discussion.

To be honest, I really want to see where this all goes. Thanks guys.
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:36PM

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