Debate and Discussion

Is the UK a police state?
kyupol at 3:41PM, Nov. 6, 2007
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http://tech.yahoo.com/blogs/devlin/17027
How would you feel about this: Tracking chips in kids' school clothing so that school officials can know their whereabouts during the school day?

Oh, it's happening. Ten students in a secondary school in the United Kingdom are being tracked through RFID implants in their school uniforms in a pilot program. Information Week reports that the kids attend Hungerhill School for ages 11-16 in Edenthorpe, England.

Add the RFID chips to increased video surveillance and fingerprinting of kids, and this is a heavily tracked generation for safety's sake.

That extra peace of mind for adults comes with a heavy loss of privacy for kids. Do you agree with David Clouter, a parent and founder of the children's advocacy group Leave Them Kids Alone, who says taking all these precautions has the effect of treating kids like criminals? Or do you agree with the parents who have OKed the pilot program who do not find it egregiously intrusive?

One possible side effect: Uniform sales may pick up as kids try to procure extra non-RFID-tagged clothing. As security expert Bruce Schneier writes on his blog: “So now it's easy to cut class; just ask someone to carry your shirt around the building while you're elsewhere.”


I also heard other stories of surveillance cameras in every street corner… and people being thrown in jail for small offences… and of sexist laws that deal severe punishment for males…

Is there any truth to this?

I'm skeptical of those claims I've read about regarding the UK… and I've never been there before. That is why I like to hear a different opinion.

Thanks.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 1:25PM
Phantom Penguin at 6:42PM, Nov. 6, 2007
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Do kids that young really need privacy? They are still at the age that when they are alone you need to worrie about them.

I think its good intentions but it wont work out, only because people will say “omgz the government is totally liek going to use it on us!!!1!”

I've heard about the cameras on the street corner, but i really dont think thats a problem, its a public area, if your going there for privacy your not the brightest tool in the shed.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:42PM
Aurora Moon at 7:01PM, Nov. 6, 2007
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Phantom Penguin
Do kids that young really need privacy? They are still at the age that when they are alone you need to worrie about them.

I think its good intentions but it wont work out, only because people will say “omgz the government is totally liek going to use it on us!!!1!”

“That young”? Dude, we're talking about TEENAGERS, not 8-year-olds.

I just think this is an unfounate side effect to the media's hype about there being “preadtors” and all the kids going “bad”.

Yes, some parents are fine with it but I think it's just about as creepy as say, a parent putting an camera in his child's bedroom and bathroom just because he's worried that their child may be using drugs/exposing thier bodies over the net/whatever else they're not supposed to do.

Teenagers are young people who are TURNING into YOUNG ADULTS. If we don't treat them as such, then we're going to see a lot of backlash.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 11:10AM
crazyninny at 7:08PM, Nov. 6, 2007
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Can anyone say ‘V for Vendetta’?

I can't see the world like that, were we have camera's on ever street conner and tracks on ever kid. What ever happend to ‘Live and Learn’? If we can't make mistakes, or see others make mistakes, then how are we suppose to grow up and understand these things?
Yes, we need to keep an eye on kids, but there is a limit.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:48AM
Kilre at 8:15PM, Nov. 6, 2007
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If they're going to track the kids, at least track the adults as well. Kids, and teens for the most part, don't know much better. Adults do, and choose to willingly be stupid.

Either track the whole citizenry or don't track anyone at all. I for one wouldn't mind masturbating while under a tracking system so long as every other dirty bastard out there was sharing the misery with me.

The people who even let the system get to where it is now forgot what it meant to be a horny, disrespectin' teenager.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:15PM
DAJB at 12:32AM, Nov. 7, 2007
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No, it's not a police state. Even the most superficial comparisons with real police states will tell you that much.

But that's not to say there aren't those who are doing their level best to push it down that road. Both Labour and Tory governments have done their bit to erode civil liberties and, interestingly enough, both have done so while explaining how it was all in the name of freedom. 1984 and its wonderful notion of “double-speak” is possibly a closer model than V for Vendetta.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:03PM
StaceyMontgomery at 3:52AM, Nov. 7, 2007
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Not to be a total pain (oh well) but We've got to stop saying “civil liberties” when we mean “Freedom”

“Civil liberties” sound kind of. Just say “Freedom” - it's worth fighting for.

I feel like “Freedom” has been redefined as “you can vote for Moe or Curly every four years” and all the rest of the stuff that used to be part of “Freedom” has been shifted over to being “Civil liberties.” But what the heck are uncivil liberties?

Because the US and other nations are facing some serious debates that are endlessly framed as “Security” and “Safety” versus “Civil liberties” - which sounds like a losing game to me.

I say give me liberty or…
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:55PM
Poke Alster at 10:35AM, Nov. 9, 2007
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yes it is, police officers are basically round every corner, as i live in the UK i speak on behalf of alot of people, we're not all bad just people are bad so what do the police do? blame it on everyone because they cant find the right person
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:46PM
Phantom Penguin at 1:00PM, Nov. 9, 2007
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Phantom Penguin
Do kids that young really need privacy? They are still at the age that when they are alone you need to worrie about them.

I think its good intentions but it wont work out, only because people will say “omgz the government is totally liek going to use it on us!!!1!”

“That young”? Dude, we're talking about TEENAGERS, not 8-year-olds.

I just think this is an unfounate side effect to the media's hype about there being “preadtors” and all the kids going “bad”.

Yes, some parents are fine with it but I think it's just about as creepy as say, a parent putting an camera in his child's bedroom and bathroom just because he's worried that their child may be using drugs/exposing thier bodies over the net/whatever else they're not supposed to do.

Teenagers are young people who are TURNING into YOUNG ADULTS. If we don't treat them as such, then we're going to see a lot of backlash.

I misread the article I didn't see the teenager part. I think the chips on children isn't that bad of a idea, but on 15-16 year olds is a tad much, they need to be smart enough at that point to do the right thing.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:42PM
Kilre at 1:30PM, Nov. 9, 2007
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Phantom Penguin
I misread the article I didn't see the teenager part. I think the chips on children isn't that bad of a idea, but on 15-16 year olds is a tad much, they need to be smart enough at that point to do the right thing.

I wouldn't trust anyone younger than 18–or thereabouts–to make intelligent decisions on their own. That said, they'll never learn anything unless they make mistakes.

Horrible, horrible, life-altering mistakes.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:15PM
Broken Minds at 1:44PM, Nov. 9, 2007
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Eh Who cares if they have monitoring chips in their clothes.

You never hear about them going and gunning down their classmates.

Even still, the most those things could do is gps location. No visual or sound. Otherwise everyone would be wired like rats infiltrating the mob.

So I'm not sweating it. Your cellphones, iphones, and all your other little cute hi tech gadgets already have ways to track you, this is just a more publically announced one.

I think their better off honestly. If you don't give them a reason to come after you, why should it matter?
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:35AM
Poke Alster at 9:40AM, Nov. 11, 2007
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Broken Minds
Eh Who cares if they have monitoring chips in their clothes.


I think you misunderstood, they were thinking about it and it was only going to be given to the people who wanted it
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:46PM
kyupol at 10:56AM, Nov. 11, 2007
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You never hear about them going and gunning down their classmates.



This is part of a large scale mind control conspiracy by the New World Order.
http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/april2007/190407mindcontrolled.htm

Like 9-11, this is part of the conspiracy to justify the enslavement of the population… and turn this whole world into a giant prison.

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last edited on July 14, 2011 1:25PM
Poke Alster at 12:36PM, Nov. 11, 2007
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thats a load of balls
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:46PM
Mister Mxyzptlk at 6:04PM, Nov. 12, 2007
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England is hell. They used to have an empire to use all that meddlesome energy on but now all they have is that pathetic little island to muck with. So they go overboard.

The food sucks too.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 2:04PM
TitanOne at 4:25PM, Nov. 20, 2007
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Yes, they are a police state. A police state can be a barbaric empire that worships war and killing, or it can be a Nanny State that regulates all human behavior “because it's for your own good.” The Nazis were the former—The British are the latter.

The US shows signs of becoming both, unless the electorate intervenes…

last edited on July 14, 2011 4:30PM
TitanOne at 4:36PM, Nov. 20, 2007
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kyupol


This is part of a large scale mind control conspiracy by the New World Order.
http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/april2007/190407mindcontrolled.htm

Like 9-11, this is part of the conspiracy to justify the enslavement of the population… and turn this whole world into a giant prison.



There's too much bunk in the conspiracy theory movement. There aren't any lizard people and Freemasonry is a harmless social organization.

It's the neo-conservatives who want a ‘prison planet’, not the new world order. There are lots of members of the new world order who are peaceful, decent individuals–former President Carter, for example. (He was a lousy president, but he's still a peaceful, decent individual.)

I don't like the new world order's meddling in our system, but the dangerous ones are the neo-cons, who identify themselves by their writings and rantings. They're nuts.
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:30PM
imshard at 4:56PM, Nov. 20, 2007
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Have you been there lately? Every mountable surface has at least four cameras on it. Police officers maintain an overwhelming presence and you can be fined and even jailed for loitering, or even without an actual charge, so long as they can define you as “suspicious”. I know a few of the members here are in the UK, even in Britain proper so correct me if I'm wrong on anything.

I have a brother, a niece, and a nephew over there, and having seen the difference they prefer it here. By far. So do I. Yes it is a police state, they watch you and its anybody's guess if somebody is watching the watchers.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 12:58PM
dueeast at 5:13PM, Nov. 20, 2007
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TitanOne
There are lots of members of the new world order who are peaceful, decent individuals–former President Carter, for example. (He was a lousy president, but he's still a peaceful, decent individual.

I really hate to disagree with you, TitanOne, but Jimmy Carter (who I agree was a lousy president) is anything but peaceable in his most recent factually inept, stereotypical diatribe against Israel – I mean, book.

Oh, and I do agree that the UK is descending into police state mentality on just about every level, especially the NHD and medical community as well as other elements of government.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:17PM
TitanOne at 6:11PM, Nov. 20, 2007
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dueeast
TitanOne
There are lots of members of the new world order who are peaceful, decent individuals–former President Carter, for example. (He was a lousy president, but he's still a peaceful, decent individual.

I really hate to disagree with you, TitanOne, but Jimmy Carter (who I agree was a lousy president) is anything but peaceable in his most recent factually inept, stereotypical diatribe against Israel – I mean, book.

Oh, and I do agree that the UK is descending into police state mentality on just about every level, especially the NHD and medical community as well as other elements of government.

I'd have to read it. What's the name of the book?
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:30PM
dueeast at 11:00AM, Nov. 21, 2007
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Palestine Peace Not Apartheid

Here's a pretty detailed critical review of Carter's book:
The World According to Carter (by Alan Dershowitz)

From Wikipedia's article on the book:
Some of the book's critics, including several leaders of the Democratic Party and of American Jewish organizations, have interpreted the subtitle as an allegation of Israeli apartheid, which they believe to be inflammatory and unsubstantiated.“

Former President Bill Clinton wrote a brief letter to the chairman of the American Jewish Committee, thanking him for articles criticizing the book and citing his agreement with Dennis Ross's attempts to ”straighten … out" Carter's information and conclusions about Clinton's own summer 2000 Camp David peace proposal.

The book led to 15 resignations from among the more than 200-member Board of Councilors of the Carter Center. Some reviewers of the book, such as Jeffrey Goldberg and Ethan Bronner, respectively, have accused Carter of engaging in hyperbole throughout the book, placing too much of the burden of responsibility for what he regards as the plight and mistreatment of the Palestinians on Israel, and misrepresenting historical facts.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:17PM
mapaghimagsik at 11:12PM, Nov. 21, 2007
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dueeast
Palestine Peace Not Apartheid

Here's a pretty detailed critical review of Carter's book:
The World According to Carter (by Alan Dershowitz)

From Wikipedia's article on the book:
Some of the book's critics, including several leaders of the Democratic Party and of American Jewish organizations, have interpreted the subtitle as an allegation of Israeli apartheid, which they believe to be inflammatory and unsubstantiated.“

Former President Bill Clinton wrote a brief letter to the chairman of the American Jewish Committee, thanking him for articles criticizing the book and citing his agreement with Dennis Ross's attempts to ”straighten … out" Carter's information and conclusions about Clinton's own summer 2000 Camp David peace proposal.

The book led to 15 resignations from among the more than 200-member Board of Councilors of the Carter Center. Some reviewers of the book, such as Jeffrey Goldberg and Ethan Bronner, respectively, have accused Carter of engaging in hyperbole throughout the book, placing too much of the burden of responsibility for what he regards as the plight and mistreatment of the Palestinians on Israel, and misrepresenting historical facts.


I'd like to point out that Alan Dershowitz is not exactly “non biased”, though he claims to be. Alan's sources are also very suspect, and like anything else in the region so steeped in emotional certainty that facts have little to do with what these people write any more.

So, I'm not saying the book is a vessel of truth, no more than any other analytical work, but it does have a pretty damning inditement of the Israeli Government, particularly the Likkud elements.

So condemnation from Zionist groups including those who feel the only blood that matter is Jewish blood, isn't surprising, and probably just as factual.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:51PM
dueeast at 5:58AM, Nov. 22, 2007
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That's why I didn't just list Dershowitz. :)

mapaghimagsik
dueeast
From Wikipedia's article on the book:
Some of the book's critics, including several leaders of the Democratic Party and of American Jewish organizations, have interpreted the subtitle as an allegation of Israeli apartheid, which they believe to be inflammatory and unsubstantiated.“

Former President Bill Clinton wrote a brief letter to the chairman of the American Jewish Committee, thanking him for articles criticizing the book and citing his agreement with Dennis Ross's attempts to ”straighten … out" Carter's information and conclusions about Clinton's own summer 2000 Camp David peace proposal.

The book led to 15 resignations from among the more than 200-member Board of Councilors of the Carter Center. Some reviewers of the book, such as Jeffrey Goldberg and Ethan Bronner, respectively, have accused Carter of engaging in hyperbole throughout the book, placing too much of the burden of responsibility for what he regards as the plight and mistreatment of the Palestinians on Israel, and misrepresenting historical facts.


I'd like to point out that Alan Dershowitz is not exactly “non biased”, though he claims to be. Alan's sources are also very suspect, and like anything else in the region so steeped in emotional certainty that facts have little to do with what these people write any more.

So, I'm not saying the book is a vessel of truth, no more than any other analytical work, but it does have a pretty damning inditement of the Israeli Government, particularly the Likkud elements.

So condemnation from Zionist groups including those who feel the only blood that matter is Jewish blood, isn't surprising, and probably just as factual.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:17PM
TitanOne at 9:16AM, Nov. 23, 2007
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dueeast
Palestine Peace Not Apartheid

Here's a pretty detailed critical review of Carter's book:
The World According to Carter (by Alan Dershowitz)

From Wikipedia's article on the book:
Some of the book's critics, including several leaders of the Democratic Party and of American Jewish organizations, have interpreted the subtitle as an allegation of Israeli apartheid, which they believe to be inflammatory and unsubstantiated.“

Former President Bill Clinton wrote a brief letter to the chairman of the American Jewish Committee, thanking him for articles criticizing the book and citing his agreement with Dennis Ross's attempts to ”straighten … out" Carter's information and conclusions about Clinton's own summer 2000 Camp David peace proposal.

The book led to 15 resignations from among the more than 200-member Board of Councilors of the Carter Center. Some reviewers of the book, such as Jeffrey Goldberg and Ethan Bronner, respectively, have accused Carter of engaging in hyperbole throughout the book, placing too much of the burden of responsibility for what he regards as the plight and mistreatment of the Palestinians on Israel, and misrepresenting historical facts.


Well, that sounds like a fairly solid critique (aside from Bill Clinton's contribution–I do not take the Clintons seriously on any level).

I was not aware that a lot of Israel-bashing was in Carter's book, since the only complaints I heard along those lines were from the Talk Radio Right, which–generally speaking–has not shown any factual credibility since 2003.

last edited on July 14, 2011 4:30PM
Mizukane at 7:20AM, Dec. 7, 2007
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I don't think the UK is a police state or verging on becoming one. I don't know whether or not I believe the tagged clothing stories, but I can tell you that there aren't all that many cameras where I live. I expect it's just in the larger cities, which is fair enough really.

To be honest, I'm more concerned about America. From what I hear, and I shan't pretend to be an expert on what it is like to live there, I find that a lot of it's severe crimes are subject to scapegoating. Whenever a teen commits some atrocity their behaviour is blamed on video games, violent films or Marylin Manson music. And when the finger is pointed, motions are put into place to prevent all youths from being affilliated with these things, despite there being no proof that there's a cause. Is it true that after the Columbine incident, most US schools had the students searched before they entered the buildings?

To me, it feels as if America is becoming very afraid of “the enemy” and that, although it isn't bad in the UK now, we will soon follow.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:05PM
Mister Mxyzptlk at 4:39PM, Dec. 7, 2007
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dueeast
but Jimmy Carter (who I agree was a lousy president) is anything but peaceable in his most recent factually inept, stereotypical diatribe against Israel – I mean, book.

Well, I agree with you about the Carter regime sucking, taking that turn the other cheek crap into the white house was a bad idea in the 70's.

However I have to give him props for speaking truth to the power of the Israel lobby. I doubt there are enough bad things to say about the draconian theocratic police state of Israel and unless his book is over 1,000 pages I doubt he hit all of them.
My soul was removed to make room for all this sarcasm.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:04PM

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