Debate and Discussion

Jesus saves lives!
Custard Trout at 9:16PM, Feb. 23, 2007
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The other day I was walking back home from college, when I pass this bloke in a
tunnel, he was carrying a sign that informed everyone who cared to look that ‘JESUS SAVES LIVES’. Well, I really needed to know that, and now I do PRAISE JESUS HOORAY! *Sarcasm Mode Deactivated* Anyway, here's what is weird about the sign:

It was in the shape of a crucifix.

Does that not seem a ironic? Even just a smidgeon? That's kind of like carving ‘I heart JFK’ on a sniper rifle, and we don't see people doing that do we? Well, of course not, they'd think you were mad. So why is Jesus exempt from such silliness?

-Ozoneocean edit- No need to prove you're a hip funky crazy guy with that other crap. Make a point and cut the baby talk.
Hey buddy, you should be a Russian Cosmonaut, and here's why.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:59AM
Rich at 9:33PM, Feb. 23, 2007
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in b4 atheists!

Seriously though, I can't exactly get what you're trying to say. The cross, while once a torture device by the Romans, is now a symbol of hope to many people. It's totally different than putting “I <3 JKF!” on a sniper rifle.

(lolz at the JFK <3 Rifle)
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:07PM
Custard Trout at 9:39PM, Feb. 23, 2007
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How exactly did the cross become a symbol of hope? I wasn't trying to spark of a religious discussion, I didn't intend to spark off anything, I was just bored.

But how? How does that work? If I was Jesus, and saw people wearing the thing I bloody died on around their necks, I'd be worried.

Pineapples are good, why not use those as symbols of hope?
Hey buddy, you should be a Russian Cosmonaut, and here's why.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:59AM
Neilsama at 9:46PM, Feb. 23, 2007
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Rich
Seriously though, I can't exactly get what you're trying to say. The cross, while once a torture device by the Romans, is now a symbol of hope to many people.
I've always found that amusing. Imagine being an alien visiting this planet and seeing that.

Imagine what people would be wearing around their necks if Jesus was hanged.
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:10PM
Rich at 9:49PM, Feb. 23, 2007
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Custard Trout
But how? How does that work? If I was Jesus, and saw people wearing the thing I bloody died on around their necks, I'd be worried.

Jesus gave his life on the cross to cleanse everyone of their sins, after which point he rose up again 3 days later. The cross is a sign of how he died for everyone's sins, a sort of respectful rememberance for his suffering if you will.

(please let this not become another miserable internet religious debate…)
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:07PM
Black_Kitty at 9:58PM, Feb. 23, 2007
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Custard Trout
Does that not seem a ironic? Even just a smidgeon? That's kind of like carving ‘I heart JFK’ on a sniper rifle, and we don't see people doing that do we? Well, of course not, they'd think you were mad. So why is Jesus exempt from such silliness?

Because JFK didn't rise from the dead and throw open the gates of heaven. Now if he did that then we might have something to talk about. :P

This is something along the same lines as what Rich was saying. Back when I was in high school, the cross was seen as a sign of Jesus not only dying for everyone's sin but his ability to rise above death, of his resurrection. A lot of the new crosses in Catholic schools now actually feature Jesus with hands outstretched and resurrected as opposed to the old school kind which featured Jesus being crucified. (Well, at least around here anyway…or so I was told.)

I'll move this to the debate and discussion forum in a bit~

Oh and here's a Wikipedia article on the crucifix.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crucifix
  
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:24AM
KomradeDave at 10:11PM, Feb. 23, 2007
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Rich has it. The cross is used as a symbol of hope and faith because, by Christian theology, through the crucifiction mankind was saved. JFK was just killed, Christ was killed and “gave the world eternal life.” The instrument of his death becomes a little more significant.
Handshakes and mustaches are the only ways to know how much you can truly trust a man.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:20PM
Aurora Moon at 6:45AM, Feb. 24, 2007
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I can appreciate the symbolism of that… however, I have to say that if I was Jesus, I'd be like: “WTF? you're focusing on that?? aren't you missing the whole point of my TEACHINGS? you know, the fact that it's not important that you get into heaven by having your sins cleansed, but what you do on earth trying to be a good human being as possible for the sake of others?”

at least that's what I think he'd say. after all I find it ironic how there's Christians who focuses so much on that whole “Jesus died for our sins” bit but completely ignore what he was trying to teach back then… like being kind and respectful of your fellow human. because most Christians I've met was exeremtely rude or intolerant of non-Christians/and or other people who didn't dress or talk in an way that they approved of.

I've gotten a lot of crap from them just for being an goth. apparently all Goths are secretly Satan worshipers just based on the fact that a lot of Goths wears black, red, white, and so on forth….. and just because we like to celebrate death, which is a way of embracing how much valuable life is.

and didn't Jesus say that the most important thing in life was to treat others as you would like to be treated–with kindness and respect? After all, when he was alive he certainly didn't focus on getting humans to cleanse themselves to get ready for the afterlife, did he? no, he was focusing on teaching humans to be the best possible people they can be to try to make the earth a nicer place to be.

just a thought.
I'm on hitatus while I redo one of my webcomics. Be sure to check it out when I'n done! :)
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:09AM
Rich at 7:00AM, Feb. 24, 2007
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Aurora Moon
Intelligent stuff

QFT clear to teh fucking bank!

While Christianity may be a good religion and all, people are more worried about claiming to adhere to it to use it for their own purposes than to actually follow what it teaches. If they actually did what they claimed they were taught to do, we would in no way be stuck over in Iraq, we would not have this rampant homophobia that the US is filled with, slavery very well may have never happened, and virtually every other disaster you can imagine would have been prevented.

Fact is, people have lost sight of what religion is supposed to be. It is to teach you to care about other people and to be a better person because you WANT to be a better person, not because you fear hell (which is probably voluntary and temporary. No way a merciful God would ever send someone to hell involuntarily or permanently). Religion is supposed to preach nonviolence and love, not war and hate. It is supposed to be as much philosophy as theology! It's a way of life, not a thing you do on Sunday.

If more people realised this, there wouldn't be virtually ANY problems in this world.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:07PM
Aurora Moon at 7:31AM, Feb. 24, 2007
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exactly!
I'm on hitatus while I redo one of my webcomics. Be sure to check it out when I'n done! :)
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:09AM
Black_Kitty at 7:35AM, Feb. 24, 2007
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The death and resurrection of Jesus Christ is a very important part of Catholic theology. It's part of the Paschal Mystery and represents Jesus' ability to overcome death and thus can offer eternal life. It is also a sign of both God's and Jesus' love for humanity. God sacrificed His only son in order to bring salvation to humanity. Jesus will one day return to judge the living and the dead.

It does not diminish Jesus' teachings and having the crucifix as a symbol of Christianity does not mean that all we care about is that we can go to heaven. Beware of applying modern thinking onto a symbol that was chosen thousands of years ago.

I'm not quite sure how else to explain it. Symbols can work in all sorts of ways and its meaning can shift depending on who looks upon it. For some people, the cross is just a nifty accessory. For others it's a symbol of suffering. Then for some, it's a symbol of salvation and hope.

To be perfectly honest, I've been a bit impatient of religion threads as of late. Just as you've met Christians who are extremely rude and intolerant of non-Christians, I've met non-Christians who are extremely rude and intolerant of Christians. They apply some kind of standard on me and throw a fit when I don't conform to their way of how I should be acting.

So in the end, it all comes down to this: there's all kinds of people in this world and some of them are jerks.
  
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:24AM
skoolmunkee at 12:42PM, Feb. 24, 2007
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I would just argue with the guy's wording. Jesus didn't save lives, he saved souls!
  IT'S OLD BATMAN
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:39PM
7384395948urhfdjfrueruieieueue at 1:12PM, Feb. 24, 2007
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I thought I had a post here a second ago…

Oh, well. Yeah. What she said.
i will also like to know you the more
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:03AM
ozoneocean at 3:47PM, Feb. 24, 2007
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Glarg, Atom and whoever else wants to turn this into the Top Drawer with silly links and purely joke posts that have no real contribution to the topic, I will delete your posts without notice. Now Stop fucking around in here or everyone will start doing it. :gem:

Now I'm going to eviscerate Custard Trout's post because although it seems to have sparked some good stuff, it's also got a bit of rubbish there.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:26PM
7384395948urhfdjfrueruieieueue at 4:17PM, Feb. 24, 2007
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That link was completely relevant because I was trying to point out the meanness to religion.
i will also like to know you the more
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:03AM
Rich at 4:34PM, Feb. 24, 2007
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Atom Apple
That link was completely relevant because I was trying to point out the meanness to religion.

While I agree with you that many atheists are just as fanatical towards destroying religion as fundies are towards destroying atheism, posting a link to a poorly drawn and sickeningly bad comic doesn't prove a whole lot.

Give examples such as Dawkins referring to giving children a religious upbringing the same as child abuse. Another such one would be www.whywontgodhealamputees.com where they refer to religious people as delusional and claiming they damage the human race as a whole simply by being religious. THOSE are good examples. Stick figure comics with misspelled titles are not.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:07PM
ozoneocean at 4:35PM, Feb. 24, 2007
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Someone
That link was completely relevant because I was trying to point out the meanness to religion.
It was a link to a rambling comic page man. You know that, that doesn't make a debate or discussion point does it? That kind of thing's fine even in general discussion, but here everyone knows a bit more is expected. At least describe your link and how it applies… But anyway, please try a bit harder, that's so lazy. I shouldn't have to explain this over and over. -edit- rich makes a good point

I'm afraid I have to nip that sort of thing in the bud or everyone will start doing it and the debate forum will turn to mush. Sorry Atom, you know it's not personal. Now STOP posting about it in the forum and just PQ me about that in future ok?

What is the debate or discussion point here anyway? About how the Cross is a problematic symbol? It's iconic. It has been the logo with which Christianity has sold itself for decades and it's a pretty successful one! More successful than the Muslim crescent or any other stand-alone religious symbol I can recall right now. As a logo for the world wide brand that is Christianity it works very well, so don't knock it. ;)
 
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Custard Trout at 8:44PM, Feb. 24, 2007
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Aaah, yeah, like I said before it was so rudely edited out, the point of this thread was NOT to cause a religious debate, I just noticed something and wanted to point it out, people need to vent, why can't I? Same goes for the other stuff.

Why is it impossible to say the word ‘Jesus’ without causing an arguement? I'll just keep my mouth shut next time. Or my fingers away from the keyboard. Or my thoughts out of my brain. Or something else.
Hey buddy, you should be a Russian Cosmonaut, and here's why.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:59AM
7384395948urhfdjfrueruieieueue at 8:48PM, Feb. 24, 2007
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Then this goes in General Discussion next time.
i will also like to know you the more
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:03AM
KomradeDave at 9:40PM, Feb. 24, 2007
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Atom Apple
Then this goes in General Discussion next time.
That's where it was. It was moved here.
Handshakes and mustaches are the only ways to know how much you can truly trust a man.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:20PM
ozoneocean at 9:43PM, Feb. 24, 2007
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Custard Trout
Aaah, yeah, like I said before it was so rudely edited out, the point of this thread was NOT to cause a religious debate
Atom's right. What I edited out was stuff that consisted of “did you ever notice how car signals seems to be talking to you?” and other equally unenlightening non sequiturs. ;)

Venting is fine man. If you vent here it has to be about one subject written in an intelligent way for people to discuss; not a bunch of random “funny” observations… But your main thrust did seem to have started something so It's fine and dandy in this forum. ^_^

Here we discuss, debate, and argue about things, that's what we like to do. SO the fact that what you posted had a few reply arguments is a GOOD sign. :)

We're talking about the cross as an appropriate symbol are we? Then talk! The cross is a good, striking symbol, but it is indeed a little brutal. A private school up the road from me has a massive cross mounted outside of their school church near a playing field, it's huge and made of steel girders. I find it a particularly bleak and unwelcoming monument.
 
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Priceman at 12:58AM, Feb. 25, 2007
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Custard Trout
That's kind of like carving ‘I heart JFK’ on a sniper rifle, and we don't see people doing that do we? Well, of course not, they'd think you were mad. So why is Jesus exempt from such silliness?


I think the simple answer to that is the fact the even though Jesus died on the cross; it has become a symbol for Christians everywhere. One of the messages that i was taught growing up was: “How he died isn't as important as what he died for”. So since the cross is the symbol for christianity it's not strange to see it used in such a way.
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Red_Tide at 1:57PM, Feb. 25, 2007
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Using the cross as a symbol of hope really is ironic, but symbols change. Wasn't the pentagram at one time Christian? I like pointing that out to a friend of mine because it annoys him to no end.
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7384395948urhfdjfrueruieieueue at 2:14PM, Feb. 25, 2007
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No, it was Pagan, Catholics turned it into a sign of evil to make Pagans seem evil. The same goes for the horned demon Satan. That was based off of the Pagan god of fertility, because “Oh my God! Sex is bad!” “Oh my God! You just took the lord's name in vein!”
i will also like to know you the more
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:03AM
KomradeDave at 2:25PM, Feb. 25, 2007
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Red_Tide
Using the cross as a symbol of hope really is ironic, but symbols change. Wasn't the pentagram at one time Christian? I like pointing that out to a friend of mine because it annoys him to no end.
It was never Christian. Atom's rights, it's pagan. It was never even evil
(despite what church authorities claimed) besides being a sign for punk ass kids who like to play dress-up and pretend they know about the devil.
If you want a great example of symbols changing meanings look at the swastika. It's meant all sorts of things, a lot of them positive, and has even been found in some older Jewish temples. It goes to show you that the symbol itself isn't as important as it's use. The cross is seen as offensive to some because of all of the bloody history it is associated with, but is also seen by many with its original symbolism intact. Who knows what the future holds for the cross?
Handshakes and mustaches are the only ways to know how much you can truly trust a man.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:20PM
Kristen Gudsnuk at 8:50PM, Feb. 25, 2007
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Aurora Moon
I can appreciate the symbolism of that… however, I have to say that if I was Jesus, I'd be like: “WTF? you're focusing on that?? aren't you missing the whole point of my TEACHINGS? you know, the fact that it's not important that you get into heaven by having your sins cleansed, but what you do on earth trying to be a good human being as possible for the sake of others?”

well, I think that the easiest way to visually show Jesus' sacrifice is through that image… it's like the physical manifestation of his teachings. It's a symbolic gesture that we should all repent. And in mass, they focus on Jesus' teachings…
I don't know, back when my parents used to force me to go to church I found it entertaining to stare at the creepy, hollow-eyed Jesus during mass. (that and I tried to count how many propellors were on the ceiling-fans… I'm pretty sure it was 5 each, but to this day I'm not positive!
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CeeZee at 1:12PM, March 12, 2007
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Jesus died on the cross for our sins. In that context, the shape makes sense to the message on it. It's not the fact that he died that gives us hope, but why he died that makes it significant.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:39AM
ozoneocean at 10:53PM, March 12, 2007
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Deleted two posts:
One was a two word statement and the other a Penny Arcade strip. This is NOT the forum for such crap ok? That makes me very annoyed, you can makes points with images and stupid catchphrases anywhere else but here we debate and discuss. You KNOW that.
 
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CorruptComics at 3:13AM, March 13, 2007
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So this debate is a bunch of non-Christians telling the Christians that using the method of fulfilling the sole destiny of their savior is ironic because…

You know what, never mind.

If this was meaningful debate with any relevance to religious problems or ideas I might be inclined to participate in a manner equal to the seriousness of the discussion. As it stands… Jesus was f'ing metal.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:46AM
kingofsnake at 1:41PM, March 13, 2007
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Custard Trout
Why is it impossible to say the word ‘Jesus’ without causing an arguement? I'll just keep my mouth shut next time. Or my fingers away from the keyboard. Or my thoughts out of my brain. Or something else.

Because you can't say “Jesus” without 5 other people saying: Christianity sucks and heres the five same overgeneralized bereft-of-any-theological-or-philosophical-thought reasons I have for thinking so that I gave in the last forum post with a religious theme, and even though I have no education in theological concepts I am so sure that I'm right and you're wrong that I'm going somehow compare your beliefs with every mistake any other christian has made since the conception of the thing 2000 years ago as if that was what you built your faith on thereby belittling your own beliefs. Like I'm a fucking child.

You never see responses from Christians until we've been shit on for like a page and a half in a forum. Hey try this, mind your own fucking business. You don't see me trying to convert you to Catholicism stop trying to convince me that atheism is right with sophmoric poorly thought out arguments that have nothing to do with the faith itself and everything to do with how you or others decided to interpret it.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:15PM

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