When I joined DD, it was, as far as I know, a site where new and upcoming comic authors could get some free hosting to show off their wares, build up a readership, get friendly critique and comments and maybe, in time, move onto their own domains or what-have-you.
Nothing personal to them, but what could any comments or critique do for comics like Freshmen or Cowboys and Aliens (as examples, no ill will meant to them)? They, and many other comics appearing on DD recently are published, successful comics by good artists and authors who've already made it in the comic field. And whilst I congratulate them on getting there, and can see by the quality of all such comics that they damn well deserve it - why are they here on DD, a place I thought was designed for, I quote myself, new and upcoming comic authors?
Yeah, we've got some comics here who've been on DD for what seems like aeons; ones like Charby the Vampirate, Elijah and Azuu and Gods of ArrKelaan - all of which rock socks. They started here, they, if anything, deserve to keep the places they've earnt here.
It just ticks me off slightly that toplist spots and featured slots are going to published comics at times, which, though they deserve it, already -have- everything that many of the DDers strive for. What do they need the extra publicity for? IMO, those slots should be saved for people who haven't been there before and -aren't- succesful retail comics. People like Beer Noodles and Clench and Cheese, for example, are ones I like to see come up there; comicers who do it for the fans and the personal enjoyment, not to rake in some extra bucks.
And stop me if I'm wrong, but in the past, comics have been removed from DD for effectively using it as ad-space to boost their own page hits or book sales or whathaveyou. I'm not saying we should do that to the Plat-Studios/Topcow comics, but nonetheless… it's not far from something that's effectively been ruled against in the past.

While I fully agree with you, I am going to completely stay out of this argument. There is too much that can go wrong in this sort of debate.

EDIT: Fuck it. I'm bored. I'll stick my nose in this one.

We had a conversation about this in the mod forum. Most of us think it's a pretty cool thing that DD is being used as a transition to the web for published comics. The other free hosts have their thing, but DD attracts pros and amateurs alike. No elitism; published comics and ordinary webcomics coming together. If that's not good, what is?

I don't agree with discrimination on any grounds. Keenspace/comicgen/whatever is a great free comic host site, but they've always had a two teir system as part of the very fabric of their setup, a separation: Spot and Space… We don't have that here, even when we had the pay system, all are equal. Just as we don't discriminate against scriblly pencil comics on lined paper done during someone's maths homework, we don't discriminate against pro work either.

Anything that brings paper and web together is good. Cut out the cliques and special groups, people with status and people without, that kind of thing sucks. The webcomic world is far too up it's own arse as it is, lets pull our heads out eh? It's getting stinky up there. :)

I agree with you on some of your points. I did a double take when I noticed that Witchblade was being put on DD. I mean, not only is Witchblade an already very popular published comic, but it even had its own TV series for criminy sakes. Why would it need to be put on DD?

I always thought of DD as a sort of santuary for comic book and comic strip artist. A place where your comic can build a modest fan base (or, if your fortunate, a large fan base). A place for their artwork to be seen by many people without being turned down by a publisher because your art of story didn't meet their standards.

Personally, I have no problems with the Top Cow comics being on DD. But I can see how some would be bent out of shape because of their presence. Many of their artist (like Michael Turner, for example) are excellent and have already made their mark on the comic biz. And while there are a few comics on DD that can hang with them, other comics would pale in comparison artistically.

However, it does have its good points. Before being put on DD, I've never heard of Freshmen. Ever since being featured, I've grown to like the series.

Mort
And stop me if I'm wrong, but in the past, comics have been removed from DD for effectively using it as ad-space to boost their own page hits or book sales or whathaveyou. I'm not saying we should do that to the Plat-Studios/Topcow comics, but nonetheless… it's not far from something that's effectively been ruled against in the past.

The only instance I remember of this happening is with Yenny and honestly, to this day I disagreed with the move. (For those of you who don't know or weren't here at the time, Yenny's creator David Alvarez came in and held a vote on whether or not people want him around. This was a long long time ago though.) It was also a voluntary move from what I remember.

DD has never minded webcartoonists mirroring their comics on DrunkDuck. One might even argue that it was strongly encouraged (people are still doing that right now!) So I personally disagree with the whole DD removes comics that only come here for promotion. People have been doing that here all the time. (This isn't really a bad thing…some people like it here so much that they become regulars. :) Yay!)

This isn't DD's official stance or anything but my personal opinion is that this increase in published works on DrunkDuck is a good thing on multiple levels. For webcomics in general, it means an increasing acceptance of webcomics by the print comic industry. As Ozoneocean said, it's the coming together of print comics and webcomics. For readers like you and I, we get free comics. For DrunkDuck it not only validates DD even more but it also means that the community has grown much more inclusive. It is truly a community that welcomes everyone regardless of their skill level.

I haven't drawn webcomics in a while so maybe I'm out of touch but the webcomic world seems really preoccupied with separating and classifying themselves sometimes. The latest Gigcast had an interview with the creator of Sheldon and he remarked how putting up his own site allowed him to connect with his readers. Webcartoonists love to do that and they love feedback. But for some bizarro reason, they don't want to do that with each other unless they see themselves as being on a somewhat same level.

I think it's great that for once there's a community that welcomes everyone. Here's a place where regardless of your abilities or where you are, you are welcomed. Everyone's here because they enjoy comics and not because they all happened to be on the same steps of the staircase to webcomic heaven. Even when webcomics here got their own hosting and moved on, we always said that they're always welcomed to come back and we mean it.

I'm not trying to shut you guys down. Just my personal opinion and all. (And God I wish the preview button comes back soon. ;_; I bet I wrote an essay again huh?)

There is one major advantage I guess. If you update a lot and get more views than the published guys, you've kicked their ass at their own game.

You see, while I do agree it ain't cool that we're competing with published comics, most of those guys are COMPLETELY out of their league on here. They may have better art, but because most of them don't post much or socialize with the other members, they will NEVER be able to get the community recognition the little guy can get.

The little guy can be social. The little guy and view his readers comics and comment and shit. The published guys are too busy working their asses off while a single person posts the page and we never see them past their ‘lol! Thank you fer teh 5!’ comments (Now, this isn't everyone, but a lot of the published people are pretty damn anti-social).

Look at E&A, Charby (One of my favorite comics of all time), and GOA for example. Those comics are friggin huge on here! Yet if their creators were a bunch of reclused people who avoid contact, nobody'd know any of those comics (Save for maybe E&A. Ink is on fucking comic steroids of something)!

DD is defined not just by the comics, but also by the people that make them! Authors you never see or hear from will never be able to compete with the rest of us! We ALL know who Ronson and Spang are. We ALL know who Inkmonkey is. We ALL know who Radec, Suzi, Ozone, and I are.

Start naming out the published authors who you know have comics on here…

Yeah, that's what I thought. They may be getting paid, but they are on our turf. On the store racks they may beat us, but here we have the advantage.

I say let them post on their comics on here. They aren't taking anything from us. Here they are nobodies, while we are all somebodies.

Thts's true about the participation rates… But the “them and us” attidude isn't really what we're about. Come on guys, we're all artists here (writers inclued), weather we're being paid for it or not :)
Let's give everyone our support.

True, dividing us up is a little bit wrong. But seeing as this thread IS about debating the two sides, there was little I could do to prevent it in my post.

And this probably belongs in the debate forum.

Platinum Studios is a great and fantastic company. I love them with all my heart.

You don't like Platinum. I hate you.

Rich
And this probably belongs in the debate forum.

Agreeeeeeeeeeed!!!!
It seems like a really worthwhile debate too.
On the two sides thing: it's a matter of perspective, as always. I like to be inclusive in most things, especially art, so categories and separations always rub me the wrong way… But the whole idea of published comics coming here online with us at DD is inherently inclusive, it's wiping out one of the old traditional webcomic lines in the sand…
Instead of feeling like our territory's invaded, we should feel like there really is no territory.

LOL! SATIRIC COMMENT FTW!

Really though, Plat hasn't screwed anyone over and the site IS running well. I may not agree with everything that has been done, but it has all been debated to death a dozen times over. Nothing will change, so it is best we just let it go.

EDIT: That was aimed at Lefarce's comment. I agree with him, but I'm rather tired of debating the Plat buyout.

lefarce
Who said I was being satiric?

EDIT: Sorry, I read that wrong. Fixed the typo.

Rich
Actually the word I posted was ‘satiric’, as in satire.

This is in the debate section now, debate rules aply, sorry guys. All non-debate posts are deleted…. This is a boring forum where rules apply. Sorry :(

To the debate:
The platinum thing is a probably a big reason why the published comics are all coming over. Why is it a bad thing for these different types of comic to come together? It will certainly raise the profile of the comic host (DD), which should also rub off on your comics.

One thing I've mentioned in the moderator forum was that while it seems like pretty big news to me (published professional print comics joining DrunkDuck,) the rest of the webcomic world didn't seem to find it as big. I think Freshmen coming to DD got a mention on Comixpedia but other then that, that was about it.

Which got me thinking…am I just bias? Is this really such a big news or am I just overly excited for DrunkDuck? Or is this a big news on a local scale?

Rich does bring up an interesting point in that being hosted here isn't simply enough. You have to participate in the community as well since this is a pretty community orientated site. But even on that point, DD as it is right now is pretty inclusive. The door is always open and whether you as a creator choose to come in and join the party is largely up to you. (At this point I just want to point out that Andrew Foley of Cowboys and Aliens has been pretty active around here all things considered. So it's not as if all the professional people are hiding away. :)) And if you think about it, there are quite a number of professional comics hosted on DrunkDuck right now but the large majority of the comics that are linked on the front page are the “non-professional” ones (for a lack of a better word.)

Yeah, I don't really see those pros being on DD as a bad thing. it gives me a chance to see comics that I've never seen before, not even in the bookstores (mainly because the bookstores here usually only sells the kiddy “Disney princesses” comics along with Marvel and DC superhero comics about the Justice League or the many variations of them)…

plus… it'll give us a chance to have the possibility of interacting with the pros to possibly even learn from them in order to improve ourselves so that we can be good as them, but in our own way, of course!

I like the fact that DD is pretty open to both pros and amateurs, and treats both equally. so it's not really intimidating for anybody.

before I discovered DD, I had tried to sign up for keen space and the like. But… it was so intimidating there! and it was like my comic had been barely up there a week before it got took down!
and they gave me all sorts of stupid reasons for it… such as my comic not being high-quality enough, etc…

I was this close to being massively depressed and about ready to give up on ever improving myself… because sometimes the art classes I take at times doesn't cut it, especially if they only teach you about certain art types but omit others.
then of course I discovered DD, and I'm Glad I did. that way nobody has an complex about the pro artists out there if they get told that their comics aren't good enough to be on DD (which I hope will never happen!).

I never said, exactly, that I thought it was a bad thing they're on DD :P I've seen all levels of comics on here and that's not what bugs me; it's the fact that they're being given featured spots on a regular basis that could be going to other comics who've never been published and never had the kind of coverage that comics like Freshmen and C&A have (sorry for using those as examples again, they're just the ones who jump to mind xD) that narks me off a bit.

And no, FYI, I'm not bitter or anything. Yes, my comics have never been featured but big deal, I don't care xD I barely update the damned things anyway thanks to my obsessive gaming habit, it'd be unfair for someone as lazy and irregularly-updating as I am to take one of those spots.

yeah, you do have a point there on the featured thing. I guess to make it more fair they should do more equal amounts of non-proffesional comics as well. make it even.

like say if 3 proffesional or already published comics are shown, then they should show 3 comics that has never seen the light of an proffesional publishing company.

Just to clarify on a previous point:

Black_Kitty
The only instance I remember of this happening is with Yenny and honestly, to this day I disagreed with the move. (For those of you who don't know or weren't here at the time, Yenny's creator David Alvarez came in and held a vote on whether or not people want him around. This was a long long time ago though.) It was also a voluntary move from what I remember.

The problem was that Yenny wasn't updating his comic on DD - because his new deal with whomever was paying Dave didn't allow it. They didn't allow him to maintain an archive anywhere else but their site.

Instead, he put up a graphic that said to go to the new site. And he would update that graphic every time there was a new comic. But there were no new comics. There were no old comics. Just a string of promo ads for where to go to read his comic. That was the part that seemed unfair since he wasn't actually posting comics on DD anymore.

The one thing he could have done, but didn't so far as I remember, was to figure out a way to only show the most current comic, and delete his archive as it went.

ANYWAY…

We have ALWAYS had previously published comics on Drunk Duck. “Quantum: Rock of Ages” (a great comic you should all read) was up to issue 5 before they posted here. “UNA Frontiers”, “GAAK” and all the work done by coydog and friends had been published and were posting new and old comics on their various sites.

In my exploration of the web, I invited published artists from all over. Some people with published comic strips in their local paper posted here as well.

So, published comics aren't really a new thing.

There are three changes, though:

1. Quantity - there are a lot more being attracted to posting their comics online at a site associated with Platinum Studios. That was inevitable. Posting on Drunk Duck is conceivably a way to get noticed by a publisher.

2. Association - The folks at Platinum know a lot of the talent of Top Cow. I don't know the exact relationship, but I'm sure someone here can google it if they wish. It also wouldn't surprise me if Platinum sent invitations to publishers to promote their work on Drunk Duck. It is, after all, a kickass tool to use - as we can all attest. Also, there are comics that Platinum has relationships with that it wouldn't surprise me if they encouraged them to use Drunk Duck.

3. Reputation - comics posted on the internet aren't something for jsut 10 year old anarchists anymore. They never really were, but the public perception is finally starting to change.

The other thing a lot of you are probably not aware of is that a lot of independent publishers are completely unschooled on the internet. Explaining Drunk Duck to them was - just a few years ago - like talking to a child about mortgages. So as more and more of them find out about the simplicity of Drunk Duck, they're going to increase.

My hope is that the lines between professional and amateur become so blurred that no will will care over time.

I agree that community involvement is the key difference. I'd like to see them involve themselves on the forums.

But remember, the PQ system now gives everyone direct access to these artists and writers. If you want to ask them questions or ask them for advice, they're just a click away. Depending on their personalities, they may never answer … but I bet a lot of them will. Comicing is a lonely business, after all.

I think the appearence, or surge, in Professional artist and comics on DD is a great thing. For one we get free access to works from the pros. With that you can see how the pros do it and you may be able to better your own art work, along with community help from fellow DDer's.
And as its been previously stated this also increases DD's reputation as a webcomic community. It gives the name DrunkDuck more weight on the comic scene and comics held here become more reputable by association.
Also DD's philosphies will become more apparent to the world and may cause a change in the webcomic hosting biz, more open, accepting, and free sites my just spring up in response to emulate DD.
But as the constant opportunist I am, The appereance of professioanl studios work on DD will eventually lead to some of our own DD artist getting noticed and maybe even being published.
People may not like a proffesional comic being featured because they control a large portion of readership or what not, but just because some one reads professional comics here on DD doesn't mean they won't read un-professional comics. I'm not sure how comics become featured, but its still got have something to do with popularity, so if your a struggling unnoticed artist or author on DD you would still have compete with popular DD comics who simply garner readership due to fan loyalties and seniority here on DD.
So its still a competetion to get on the featured list( I imagine, I have no clue how comics are choosen)and the way I see it published comics being on the featured list is just the next eveloution in the rating system debate.

spaz
I'm not sure how comics become featured, but its still got have something to do with popularity, so if your a struggling unnoticed artist or author on DD you would still have compete with popular DD comics who simply garner readership due to fan loyalties and seniority here on DD.
So its still a competetion to get on the featured list( I imagine, I have no clue how comics are choosen)and the way I see it published comics being on the featured list is just the next eveloution in the rating system debate.

I'm at my campus right now and I really really want to head home (I've been soaking wet all day…this is what happens when you have no hood and a very cheap umbrella.) But I just want to stress that the featured comic section is NOT a competition. The best example I can think of is The Chelation Kid. Inkmonkey can probably back me up on this but prior to it being featured, it was usually only him commenting on the comic and another user. I only found out about The Chelation Kid through Inkmonkey posting a link one day but it wasn't what you would consider to be a very strong or popular comic on DD.

It has nothing to do with popularity. In fact, if you're on the top 5 most read list you won't be considered for the featured comic list. I just really want people to understand this because I don't want there to be any misunderstanding or ill feeling regarding this issue.

There's a bunch of other stuff I want to address or contribute to the discussion but jeans and shoes take a long time to dry and being tired doesn't help either. :(

Black_Kitty
But if you take a look at all the comics that have been featured so far, the majority of them are “non-professional” comics. ^^;;;

Sorry BK, I'm delteing this post because I'm applying the “delete non debate posts” regime and I have to be fair and apply it equally. (the posts further up the top of the thread are from before it was in the debate forum).

As for comics in the top 5 Most Read list not being featured, this isn't strictly true, Hawk's excellent and extremely popular Culture Shock got a feature slot. ;)

One point on the debate though: how much of the problem is driven by envy and jealously? Do exclusive webcomic artists feel their territory is unfairly being invaded because published comics already have some success and don't deserve more? Is it “not fair” that they move in and take over the webcomic space as well?

I feel that envy is at the root of things somehow. But that's not such a bad thing either: the squeaky wheel gets the oil! It's laudable to be humble and inclusive, accepting any success that comes to you gratefully, or featured slots or whatever; but unless you fight for attention, you might never get any! So even though I lean strongly towards the position of being inclusive, I fully support those who fight for their positions and clamour for special recognition.

Good on you, I hope you get it! :)

Webcartoonists love to do that and they love feedback. But for some bizarro reason, they don't want to do that with each other unless they see themselves as being on a somewhat same level.

That's because, from what I've found through personal experience, is that really great artists tend to be extremely elitist and ignore most of their fanscape, even attacking those who give critique (even when the artist asked for it!). It gives those fans a feeling that they are expendable and not really valued as readers. Now, not ALL good (or professional) artists are like that. I know for a fact many here on DD are really nice and normal people. I just guess it's a subconscious fear that the “little guy” will be cut down even more by those great artists just because they are on different levels. The pro artist does have a one-up on most of us, after all.

ccs1989
Looks like that comic “Freshman” stopped posting. Even after we Featured them and everything. Oh well, I guess Seth Green has to get paid some way (HAH…HAH…)

Ah screw, I'll probably end up buying that Freshman comic anyway…

Interesting point ccs. but WTF do I keep saying here?
Debate posts only please.
Please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please?

Ok NOW I have to add debate content…

Mazoo: Elitism is disappointing, no matter how good artists are they should remember why they are good: because people like them. Be kind to the people who like you and they'll stick by you when you have a bad patch. It's a bad way for an artist to behave; the more elitist an artist is, the worse a person they usually are. Most extremely elitist people I've come across haven't been that great at their art anyway, they just love themselves so much and despise everyone else so vehemently that elitism comes naturally to them.
The bests artists (that I've talked to), are never elitist, they're aware how good their work is and they like it, but they're usually big enough to listen to people and help others too… And there have always been very lazy art on DD as well as very highly polished work, new users shouldn't find things any more intimidating now.

Phantom Penguin
Well I dont mind the big guys being around.
They are just doing their thing like iam.

GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR! Please.
ONLY debate, not comments. I just got of telling ccs. :(

dude, i think this topic needs to be put back in “general topic”.
so that we can discuss it, and not have to debate everything

… :(
Ok.
It'll probably end in a lock.

Returned to the general area due to Sub's request.
-when stuff is in the debate area you have to debate and discuss, you can't just state opinion. But you CAN here!-

Black_Kitty

spaz
I'm not sure how comics become featured, but its still got have something to do with popularity…

I just want to stress that the featured comic section is NOT a competition….

I'm seconding this and I'll give a bit of insight. I've queued up bunches of featured comics, and while sometimes a comic will get my attention because it's popular, it's usually a case of my stumbling across them somehow. :) Either the person posted on the forum and I clicked on their comic, or they made a comment on a comic and I clicked on their profile, or I browsed comics and theirs caught my eye, etc. It's not absolutely random, but randomness plays a big part in it, when I'm initially finding them anyway. :)

I also should add that I have a huge list, about 50 comics or so right now, of comics that I want to feature but haven't yet… either because the comic hasn't updated in a month or more (or their regular schedule is once every 2 weeks), or I don't think they have enough pages yet, or their last 3 updates have been ‘unfinished’ pages due to time constraints, or just because I haven't looked closely enough at them to write a proper blurb. There are probably a lot more almost-featured comics out there than people suspect, it's just usually one or two things that hold them back, and not always their own fault either. :)

It's been said before, but I want to add to this too.

I am not a professional comic artist and probably will never be, but I am an avid, obsessed, enthusiastic artist. I like to improve my art- it grants me more ways of expression. It's how I evolved my writing style, too: profs are not there to intimidate. They are there to show/suggest possible ways to get what you want on paper. (or clay, marble, film, whichever you choose ;) )

While I don't like to compare it to a competition, I think it is like sparring, or chess playing. Who wants to always keep playing or sparring with someone who is (even to the person's pov) at a lower level than where they are? We need to have goals and standards we want to rise up to. I like it that there are professional comics on DD. First off, it's a direct line to methods for setting mood and other stuff in your storytelling through comics. You can learn! Second off, it's eye candy. That's always a plus.

Anyway, all artists want to improve, don't they? Learning from one another is always what will work best- especially if one wants to keep or evolve into a personal style. (Hey, even the great masters did that!) You have the chance to see and take what you like, assimilating it into your own way of expression.

Okay I'll get off the soap box now.

My opinion is that pro comics on DD will only help the webcomics done here by fledgling artists and writers. Pro comics artists aren't exactly Hollywood stars in the pay department, and almost all of the comics are produced by teams rather than individuals. That's expensive, as are ink, paper and distribution. Comics shops are folding left and right because the profit margins are so slim.

Rest assured that every published comic you see has paid its dues… it's one of the most difficult mediums to break into, and once in there is no guarantee that you'll make it. And even if you do make it, the odds that you can support yourself are still slim.

The web offers a great opportunity to change the very way comics are produced and read. That Platinum bought DD shows that they are aware of it. DD needs to feature these published comics so that the rest of us can benefit from the new readers. If you work hard and do your very best then you'll most certainly benefit from the new attention!

ozoneocean
As for comics in the top 5 Most Read list not being featured, this isn't strictly true, Hawk's excellent and extremely popular Culture Shock got a feature slot. ;)

Yeah but before Culture Shock got featured, it actually slipped off the top five. :D

I've been getting a lot of PQs from people asking about what does it take to get on the featured comics section and it's pretty simple: make a good comic. You don't need to beat anyone to death and you certainly don't need to pay us (although if you really insist…well, who am I to stop you? :D I take cash and cheque.) You should also update on a regular basis and not use copyright infringing material. (There are a few comics that I would love to see go up there myself but I've been waiting for them to update.)

And as a side note, no worries about the post deleting. :)

Black_Kitty
And as a side note, no worries about the post deleting. :)

Ahaha! I'm glad this is back in the General forum, I HATE doing that. :)

The big professional comics dont bother me in the slightest my comic is averagely drawn and poorly written, yet its still more popular than the brilliant cowboys and aliens.