ozoneocean
Ok NOW I have to add debate content…

Mazoo: Elitism is disappointing, no matter how good artists are they should remember why they are good: because people like them.

Just playing devils advocate, but isn't genius usually misunderstood at it's time? And therefore art that becomes mega-popular and revered later (like Rembrant's art) wasn't at the time. Just because an artist isn't liked doesn't mean that he or she isn't great. Or is what you're saying only in the case of elitists, because usually they are, to use a cliche, “One Trick Ponies” and should thank people for supporting them?

However then some artists use that elitism to their advantage. They act extremely self-absorbed and sometimes rude, but with a kind of charisma that it attracts certain people. Didn't Andy Warhol do that? (I don't know, but I've heard he did use his elitist charisma to his advantage.)

I honestly don't like comics like Witchblade and Freshmen on the featured lists, because they aren't really web comics. Like for example, The Freshmen were scans of the TPB. It even had the TABLE OF CONTENTS. I mean, is it just me, or is that just plain wrong?

Also, while they have accounts, you can't really say they're part of the community. As far as I've seen (and I could be wrong, if I am sorry) they aren't rating comics. Or such.

So, they don't fit half of what DD is supposed to be. While I like the comic The Freshmen (Whichblade I started to hate) and can't say it doesn't deserve to be on DD, but featured? I can't say it should. I mean, it got full page ad's in Wizard. How much more advertsing would it need?

So, for quailty, I can't even support that. They're good print comics (well.. Witchblade is decent really) but as WEB comics (which has a different mindset in creation) they don't seem to fit. They're lazy, at best. Due to them basically being scans of trades. Now again. Don't get me wrong. They worked to get what they'er at. But they don't need a feature page. Heck, in my opinion (again.. my opinion) they haven't earned it. They make fine print comics, but not fine web comics.

Of course, then you must ask yourself, what makes a “fine webcomic”. I personally think that anyone should be able to post on DD. If not, then we've got the whole “who judges the comics” thing going on.

If you have a sucky comic, but you still want to be on DD, then you should be able to get in. When I first started my comic, I was probably the most horrible artist in the world. Now, through critiques my art has gained, it's gotten much better.

As for proffessionals…I see this place as a great advertisement tool. More power to the guy who can get more hits off of their site. I would feel the same way if I had a huge comic and needed–no, wanted–more hits.

*shrug*

And that's MY two cents.

The idea of elitism in any art form seems to me to be the work of the dealers, not the artists themselves. Make it exlusive and then there's real value, right?

There is an age-old question in art: at what point is the artist “selling out?” Edward Hopper and Norman Rockwell were both extraordinarily talented painters, yet Rockwell is considered an illustrator rather than a serious artist. Is this because he lacked skill? Because his catalog is slender? No… it's because he never painted a major work for its own sake. It was all advertising, all commission. He was a millionaire by the time he was 22.
Hopper did his share of illustration as well (the Man in the Gray Flannel Suit was his creation for 1920's magazines), but he kept his real work separate. He was never a millionaire, not by a long shot. Now his work is revered the world over. Anyway, on to comics.

Used to be that to create comics you needed to be able to at least draw and write a bit. With webcomics all you need is a computer. You don't need to know how to write a gag or tell a story. You needn't bother to learn to draw, nor ever study the rich tradition of comics. Just screencap your video game and pop in some balloons and there, you're a comics artist. And, very likely, your comic sucks.

That doesn't mean it won't be popular. There's a theory that popularity breeds itself (Britney Spears is popular because she's popular, and so on), but for something to stand the test of time it needs to have some meat.

Look at the most viewed comics on the DD list. Almost all of the top 25 have more than 100 episodes, and many of them have long, intricate stories with well-developed characters and long-running jokes (Life and Death being a prime example). If you want to be in the top 10, you gotta work for it. Take it seriously and try to make the very best strip you can (even if it takes you a week or two). This is a fun time and there are no rules, but that doesn't mean you should go at it half-assed!

Thought I'd post my quick two cents on this issue, because really, I came from about every avenue discussed here.

Back in the day, I was creating MINI COMICS or ashcans. Little stapled things that hardly anyone cared about, except for a select “small press” crowd. Then I moved to independent publishing and losing my ass in expenses. Then I moved into some freelancing for other writers, etc, making a little money and drawing other peoples works. All along, I've done my own thing as well, and I officially came to “webcomics” back in 1999 when I started posting the original GRAVITY comic strip on Keenspace.

There was a learning curve back then, where I needed to use a site that sort of did things for me, because I didn't know how to do my own site, but I DID end up teaching myself and moving away from the community free hosting. With my YIRMUMAH comic, it grew it's own audience on it's own and does really well. I likely would have never thought about moving it over to Drunk Duck. To the rest of the webcomic world out there, DD was sort of a second fiddle keenspace, that had some problems. When I initially heard that Platinum was acquiring a big webcomic hub, I thought keenspace, keenspot or something else like moderntales— when I first heard Drunk Duck I thought,, WHA??? WHY??? Why Duck? And MANY others thought the same thing, and you all probably witnessed some of the discourse in other communities (or jealousy) over the matter.

But as I was brought into hearing more inside info before it was announced of the buyout for plans for the future of DUCK and webcomics in general, it all made sense. Drunk Duck is an awesome existing creative community, but one where many outsiders just see the vast amount of work here as amatuer, or beginner work. “wannabes?” – It's almost EXACTLY the same mindset that the COMIC BOOK READERS, RETAILERS, PUBLISHERS have about ALL webcomics in general. Drunk Duck IS punk rock. Drunk duck is , dare I say, underground comics?

And here comes Platinum, with this vision of tearing down these labels and walls. Comics are comics, on ALL levels. Kind of celebrating the art form on all it's levels. Hell, my comics look pretty polished, but only because I'm 30 years old and have been drawing and working at this forever, but STILL some of the other comics I see coming in are better looking than my work, but I don't feel like I'm competing against them, and I don't feel like I'm crushing some amatuer art either—

Anyway– I'm one of you. I can't socialize as much because.. well, I'm buried in work and deadlines at the moment! But I answer every private quack, and I quietly read through TONS of comics on here, good, bad and indifferently. I think this is exciting because it IS bringing eyes to ALL OF YOUR WORK. And Platinum, I believe, has a real commitment to the artform and love of just COMICS. Seriously, any of you go hang with the main guys and they ooze a love for the artform on ALL levels of quality.

And that, my friends, is a RARE thing in the cartooning business.

Now, many people I hear from also say they're not looking to do this for a living. Just for fun and for themselves. But if it's it something you ENJOY doing, I encourage you to try to push it and focus and maybe try to make it something you CAN make money with. Many of you are younger folks than me, the old geezer at 30— but MAN , if I would have had a site like this in my teens, or even early twenties (which none really existed then) — it…. well, there is a REAL opportunity here. And not just a CASH opportunity. You all have a stab at keeping comics alive for another generation or three, and opening up COMICS to NEW people, rather than just webcomic or comic book readers.

The new Jack Kirby's, Wally Wood's, Jack Cole's, Steranko's, Stan Lee's…. could all be right here, right now. WHat would they have done with these opportunities?

I'm not a very active member of the community anymore, but i used to be before the site went down towards the end of last year, i remember the good old CG/DD war, those were good times.

In january of this year Drunkduck relaunched, i was one of the first 100? 200? to sign back up because i love this place, i love the members that i get to speak to.

The only problems i see with the drunkduck community is these people with their attitude problems and elitist views.

I'm not gonna name names and point fingers, but i am gonna say that i believe the whole Platinum deal has been a good thing, i love free comics! And it's bringing more readers to you! Have any of you picked up any of the comic books seen on here? I'm willing to bet Drunkduck could have some free advertising in there!

"View on Drunkduck.com!"

You know what that does? Brings more readers to that comic….then they start to look around…bringing more readers to YOUR comic.

It's a good thing, people, even if it wasn't there is nothing anyone can do about it.

Enef
The only problems i see with the drunkduck community is these people with their attitude problems and elitist views.

I wish more people understood this. I don't mean to belittle our hobby, but we're just webcomic authors. We're a group of people doing what they enjoy for (mostly) free. None of us is hot stuff. Take even the most famous webcomic authors–in this case we'll say Tycho and Gabe–and hardly anybody knows about them. I'm talking real-world people, not internet people. So really there's no room for prima-donnas in the webcomics world.

This means:
- One author is not “better” than another, regardless of skill, pageviews, or publication status. Sure they can be a better artist or storyteller, but they're not a more important author or person.
- Drunk Duck owes us nothing. We were promised free comic hosting and we're getting it. Advertisement and front page exposure were not tacked onto that offer. We're getting that because the DD admins are nice.

I don't mean to sound all harsh and stuff. I think most people realize there's no reason to feel elitist.

Black_Kitty
Yeah but before Culture Shock got featured, it actually slipped off the top five. :D

Yeah, CS had actually been off the top five for a long time. I appreciate you guys giving me that extra little push again. Falling off the charts was my own dang fault for only updating once a week.

That just goes to prove that some comics that are nigh unreadable and done on MS Paint can become more popular to an audience just by banking on two franchises, while Culture Shock can be overlooked. Sad really.

Everyone should read Culture Shock, it's amazing.

Enef
The only problems i see with the drunkduck community is these people with their attitude problems and elitist views.

what elitism? everyone's pretty equal in the forums

There seems to be two main views on this. The elitists who think that tey are better than everyone else, and there's the other's who view everyone here as equal. Neither really work really, If you shunned off and belittled everything worse than your comic you're stunting the comic's and it's artist's growth by demotivating them. What I find really great about DD is there aren't many of those here. But If you did treat everyone as equal and give out 5's left right and center going “hurr good comic hurr” you're not really helping growth are you?

Good comics need to be appreaciated, with everything from a good comment to a plug or a feature.

Guys, maybe you missed the point. Even on the internet, and for free, even in a 500 mb torrent, Witchblade still sucks. Its shitty and awful. Its everything that was/is wrong with the modern comic scene.

Seriously, wheres fucking Battle Pope when you need it? You want to talk about a guy that fucking deserves some top scores, its the fucking Battle Pope guy. To go from that, to doing the shit he's done (marvel zombies, ultimate x men) thats a big leap guys. Also that dudes orignal IP books are made of full win. I sure don't see Ronson or Inkmonkey writing stuff for the big M any time soon. Hell, I don't see them writing stuff for the little top cow eithar.

RANT ALERT!

Seriously, to do webcomics on the internet is simply a big waste of time. Go to something awful and say you've got a webcomic, I dare you. Its like walking into an airport dressed as a arab and having a big shit eating grin on. We are not exactly the finest point of the internet, hell 13 year old girls showing tits on their web cam get more interest then webcomics do. And even better guys, the webcomics that are popular, really, really suck ass. Just look at Penny Arcade or 8 bit theater. They've both sucked ass for years, but no one seems to care. They still read it and buy shit from them. I just don't understand. I did a daily webcomic with twice the heart, three times the updates, and it was much more funny then both of those comics. And it had original characters that no one had even thought of using, because I pulled most of them directly from my ass. My comics were and still are the greatest webcomics that will ever grace the internet, but just face it, nobody gives a fuck about webcomics that isn't looking to make their webcomic popular. I really don't care guys. If I have to choose between reading Deadpool and reading Inkmonkeys shitty anime drivel, I'm reading some Rob Liefield big pecks, big guns, bad puns books that night. No one cares guys. Face up to it, unless you've got the balls to drive to a comics office and demand a meeting with whoever you think is in charge, you're not getting off of drunk duck in this life time, and if you do I'll still think you suck because I'm an asshole who hates to see people do good. I'm a player hater, forum troll, faggot, whatever label you want to give me, it doesn't matter. And I'm not alone. Other people despise people just for doing better then they do. Me, I've just out and out given up on shit. If I actually make any more comics, I'm making ones using sprites that contain lots of gay jokes. No one cares.

Robert Kirkman is fucking awesome.

subcultured

Enef
The only problems i see with the drunkduck community is these people with their attitude problems and elitist views.

what elitism? everyone's pretty equal in the forums

You don't see it? The people who sit around posting about how bad certain comics are when their own comics aren't exactly amazing themselves? You don't see them ragging on a certain type of comic and making it their mission to try and stop this type of comic being made? That's elitism, they believe that type of comic isn't as good as their own and has to be stopped becausethey think they are better than that type of comic.

It's stupid and nothing ever happens to these people, they might get a warning every now and again and then go back to doing what they do.

Hawk

Enef
The only problems i see with the drunkduck community is these people with their attitude problems and elitist views.

I wish more people understood this. I don't mean to belittle our hobby, but we're just webcomic authors. We're a group of people doing what they enjoy for (mostly) free. None of us is hot stuff. Take even the most famous webcomic authors–in this case we'll say Tycho and Gabe–and hardly anybody knows about them. I'm talking real-world people, not internet people. So really there's no room for prima-donnas in the webcomics world.

Exactly, why the hell should any one type of webcomic author be belittled because some other author believes that the type of comic they do isn't as good as their own? It's stupid and childish and it makes these forums a terrible place to visit .

To be fair, the people that do it don't only do that, they are the same people you see bitching constantly about any other kind of thing, any kind of change, anything new, any act of power shown by a mod, anything they can latch onto they will bitch and moan about.

It makes coming to the forums a chore, rather than a pleasure.

Hey guys, this topic has come into its own! Its balls have dropped and it's had its first period.
Congratulations ^_^

The mysterious “elitism” has finally revealed itself to actually be referring to the anti-sprite people, and maybe anti-anime to a lessor extent. And Marine has chimed in with some classic pessimistic invective, old school Marine style! :)
While the points against the “elitist” anti-spiters are somewhat valid, they're keeping it controlled these days and at quite a low level, generally. Apart from that it's just something we all have to learn to live with I'm afraid.
As for Marine's comments, well they're all perfectly valid, even if they're not delivered in the nicest way and tend to look at the darker side of things, but if he really didn't care about webcomics he'd have left of bothering about this stuff years ago.

Personally, I think that all that needs to be said has been said, and this discussion should probably end now. I don't see ANY reason to delete posts here, because people have a right to think differently on subjects like this, or then what's the point of discussing things? But if someone thinks that this topic should be unlocked, then go ahead.