Debate and Discussion

Kosovo's Independence
pastel at 10:04AM, Feb. 17, 2008
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So, Kosovo's parliament was totally, GTFO Serbia.

It's pretty recent, but already I've been hearing a lot of dissent about it. Russians and Serbians obviously don't like the idea… but a lot of English-speaking people are against it as well.

These comments
are pretty hostile sometimes…

reddit comments
ipeev: USA created a Muslim state in Europe. What are you congratulating about?!
iigloo: I don't get it, they're still Europeans, no matter their religion or where they originally came from…
ipeev: They are Albanians. They hardly pass the human intelligence exam.


Now, I may be slightly biased because I am Albanian (though not from Kosovo) but I honestly gave a little cheer when I heard the news. Kosovo has a big mountain to climb if they want to now build a successful and accepted state, but I want to cheer them on, not bring them down!

And from having visited Albania and knowing a few people from Kosovo, the fact that these people are Muslim is hardly worth batting an eyelash towards. They are quite liberal… Albania itself, despite supposedly being majority Muslim, practices very very little religion (due to being Communist in the old days.)


I want to know what other people's views are… are you cheering Kosovo on? Or do you think this is opening a can of worms? Are you against it for any other reasons?
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. K.A.L.A.-dan! Fujoshi! Mafia MASS MURDERER! Kitty and Pastel :D
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:40PM
crazyninny at 12:26PM, Feb. 17, 2008
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I say congrats on gaining their Indepedence, but sorry becuase they probalby can't join the Olympics this year. ;_; They just got independent, but maybe they can be in the next Olympics. ^_^
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:49AM
imshard at 1:57PM, Feb. 17, 2008
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At least half my ancestry comes from that region, probably more. This is ironically an important issue to us. In fact my family is divided. Personally I support the Idea that any majority group of an area should have the right to choose their government. Realistically we're talking about an area roughly the size of Connecticut succeeding from a country about the size of Pennsylvania (assuming I estimated it right).
It is a civilized nation capable of coexisting with its neighbors, and tolerant of its various ethnic groups and religions.

I'm for it and I really don't care about it being muslim because it will not be a theocratic state and the variety Islam practiced there is decidedly moderate and peaceful.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 12:58PM
bobhhh at 4:28PM, Feb. 17, 2008
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I wouldn't waste a bead of sweat on ignorant comments like the type you quote. Suffice it to say most civilized people are happy for Ksovo's independence, unless they have a political beef like the Russians or the Serbs.

To people like ipeev, I am reminded of the maxim that goes something like, if you think you're smarter than everyone else, then chances are you're really more stupid.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 11:29AM
DAJB at 12:53AM, Feb. 18, 2008
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If the majority of people in Kosovo want independence, what gives any other country the right to tell them they can't have it?

The question of its religion is a separate issue all together. To assume that it will automatically become a fascistic theocracy just because the majority of the population is Muslim betrays a certain prejudice and ignorance born of the current media fascination with Islamic extremism. Obviously it's possible that an independent Kosovo could go down that route (history shows that all sorts of countries have fallen prey to repressive forms of government, both religious and secular, and both Muslim and not) but that's far from a given and it's certainly no reason for other countries to try to deny the people their own choice of government.

Would it have been right for, say, China or Russia to tell the population of the US that they couldn't become independent of Britain? Of course, it may not have been a wise choice, but it was still theirs to make!
;-)
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:03PM
Calbeck at 4:46AM, Feb. 18, 2008
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bobhhh
Suffice it to say most civilized people are happy for Ksovo's independence, unless they have a political beef like the Russians or the Serbs.

Aaaand the sixth sign of the coming Aporkalypse has sounded. We both agreed wholeheartedly on something. -:)

*In the coming Aporkalypse there will be BACON.*
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:35AM
ozoneocean at 5:05AM, Feb. 18, 2008
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Well this is fairly one sided so far, apart from what a person called “ipeev” may have said? I'll have a go at putting some sort of diverging opinion.
DAJB
If the majority of people in Kosovo want independence, what gives any other country the right to tell them they can't have it?
There's the problem, it's not a country originally, or any sort of historically autonomous region. It's not, say, like the Ukraine, Georgia, or even East Timor. Kosovo would be more like Miami wanting independence as a separate Cuban nation.

Would the US Accept that? I don't think they would, and that's how Serbs feel. Russia just thinks it's part of a weakening of the territories there, it sets a terrible precedent there because it offers real hope and a solid objective for all the breakaway movements and violent separatist terrorist groups in places like Ingushetia etc.

And it must be said that the motives of the west in supporting Kosovo's independent statehood are not all pure, sweetness, and light. From the start NATO was formed as a body devoted to opposition against the Russians and it's an objective they still pursue even today. Move after move is designed to weaken the power of Russia, there's a massive international chess game happening in that respect. Logically, from an international standpoint, given Kosovo's situation and history it would be very unlikely that countries such as the US and Germany and so on would push for its full independence and not just autonomy if they didn't have other, overriding motives. It's just too messy, difficult and awkward- like cutting off a lizard's tail and trying to grow a new body for it so the tail can survive on its own. lol!

So that's another side to it. :)
The Serbs were savage in their war, and whatever happens, I wouldn't want the Kosovo Albanian population living under their direct control ever again. But overall, I know how silly, full of pride driven stupidity and overblown nationalism the move to independence usually is… Autonomy and limited determination within a commonwealth or union is usually better than the failure, violence, social breakdown, and eternal penury that typically follow in the wake of the birth of new small nation states in this day and age.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:30PM
DAJB at 6:09AM, Feb. 18, 2008
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ozoneocean
There's the problem, it's not a country originally, or any sort of historically autonomous region.
Well, I understand you're trying to play devil's advocate here but … so?

Virtually no country was a country originally. They've pretty much all come to be by way of splitting from others and/or amalgamating with others. And doubtless there'll be more splittings and amalgamations in the future.

last edited on July 14, 2011 12:03PM
ozoneocean at 6:55AM, Feb. 18, 2008
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DAJB
Virtually no country was a country originally.
Hmm, that was a very small part of what I said, not very important, and out of context of the examples: Georgia, Ukraine, East Timor. Those places and others like Poland had some prior claim as historical justification for separation- reasserting boundaries along traditional political, language, ethnic and religious lines. In Kosovo the justification goes- we're now the majority people in this part of your country so we want to make it into our own country, rather than- we've always been separate really, you just annexed us but we were never part of you, now we want to make it official. lol!

But that's unimportant, it's the rest of what I was saying that had more meat on it.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:30PM
Calbeck at 7:10AM, Feb. 18, 2008
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ozoneocean
There's the problem, it's not a country originally, or any sort of historically autonomous region.

It would be more accurate to apply this argument to the situation with Palestine. Albania, at least, did exist as a nation (joined the League of Nations in 1920), and it was recognized that Kosovo was ethnically part of Albania although it was ceded under pressure to Serbia during its creation. So this IS a “you just annexed us but we were never part of you, now we want to make it official” issue.

And it must be said that the motives of the west in supporting Kosovo's independent statehood are not all pure, sweetness, and light.

When has partitioning EVER been any of those three?

From the start NATO was formed as a body devoted to opposition against the Russians and it's an objective they still pursue even today.

Agreed. I'm all for the elimination of NATO, or at least call a spade a spade: fold the organization into the EU as their umbrella military and be done with it.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:35AM
pastel at 11:21AM, Feb. 18, 2008
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Thanks for your opinions everyone :3

ozoneocean
In Kosovo the justification goes- we're now the majority people in this part of your country so we want to make it into our own country, rather than- we've always been separate really, you just annexed us but we were never part of you, now we want to make it official. lol!

But that's unimportant, it's the rest of what I was saying that had more meat on it.

From what I know of the history of that region… Kosovo and parts of Greece used to, in fact, belong to Albania. It was a ridiculously long time ago though, but it is still valid if someone wanted to use it for their justification, and some Kosovars and Albanians do. (In fact, a lot of them are still angry over the parts that Greece claims as well, but I predict less success in that area)

But as for your “meatier” points, that was definitely one of the more prominent arguments I've heard against this secession. The “ipeev” guy was one of the lesser points, albeit one that struck me.

It is definitely a messy affair. There really isn't any getting around the fact that this will spark others to push harder for their own independence. Everybody knows how hard Quebec's been working to get out of Canada… maybe they'll finally get it after this?

But my only retaliation to that argument, idealistic as it may seem, is that I believe Kosovo truly deserves this. If Kosovo had been a part of a different country that had tolerated them more (like Canada tolerates Quebec) then I would have been a bit against this. But those Serbians completely persecuted them. I mean, that whole event in the 90's is what made my family leave Albania in the first place. It was no small problem. And even more atrociously, the discrimination is STILL not over. Albanian residencies and shops get bombed on a regular basis.
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. K.A.L.A.-dan! Fujoshi! Mafia MASS MURDERER! Kitty and Pastel :D
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:40PM
horseboy at 7:11PM, Feb. 19, 2008
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Calbeck
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last edited on July 14, 2011 12:50PM
Naughtelos at 1:21PM, March 2, 2008
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I say Viva la Revolution. The Serbs tried to kill them off a while back. They kind of needed to separate. I guess Serbia's just pissed off cause this is is, what, the 6th time one of their states seceeded from them? Frankly, I'm not surprised this happened, and that the rest of the former USSR is pissed off about it. At least it's a bit less complex than the Causcaus region further south. Exclaves are a much more thorny issue. After Josip Broz Tito died, it all fell to practical anarchy down there anyway. It just needs a few decades to settle, get all the right people under the right flags, and then (hopefully) It'll be peaceful- that is until they get conquered by the next mega-country…
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:09PM

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