Debate and Discussion

Loose change
Linh at 6:06PM, March 27, 2006
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http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5137581991288263801&q=loose+change

I've always thought that there is more to the official story of what happened on September 11, 2001 than what we were given. But I've always passed these “conspiracy theories” off as BS. And then I saw this video.

I was floored. Osama bin Laden might have not ordered the attack? The hijackers still alive? What the hell is this.

What do you guys think? Just a warning, it's a long video.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:35PM
Ronson at 5:31AM, March 28, 2006
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I think the video makes a few points that are worth checking out (where's the security footage from the Pentagon? How could all that fuel have ignited in the air around the trade center and still have created the heat required to melt steel?).

But there's a lot that I think pushes it. The hijackers being alive is the most suspicious. Why are we assuming they'd use their proper names and not steal someone's identity? I think that's a red herring.

Osama not ordering the attack? I dunno - it's possible due to the structure of the terrorists' cells, I suppose.

I think there never was a very good investigation (and it took more than a year to start one in the first place), and that just fans the flames of conspiracy.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:10PM
lothar at 6:11AM, March 30, 2006
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i watched the whole thing ,
i'm SPEACHLESS ……………..

all i can think is how people also didn't want to believe the Holocost was happening back when it WAS happening !
some things are just too horrible for anyone to believe , History will set this all straight ,i hope, eventualy ………………. and that is very SAD !
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:45PM
Ronson at 7:19AM, March 30, 2006
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The thing is that not everyone will ever believe that the hijacking and subsequent destruction of the towers was as easy to do as it was. That alone makes a fertile breeding ground for conspiracy.

But there's also a media problem as well. In a rush to be in front of the story, a lot of erroneous information came out that people still latch onto. Since our media no longer vets a story to prove it's accuracy (if it ever did - another argument for another time) but instead wants to air the salacious details before their competitors, no one who gets their facts from the media has the straight story.

The 9-11 commission tried, but was denied information based on “national security” - most especially from the White House. Now, the reasons for this denial might be quite valid, but again it just gives people more reason to be suspicious.

Do I think there are things about the events on 9-11 that the government isn't sharing? Absolutely. Do I think that some of the conspiracy theories are possible? In the absense of evidence, anything is possible.

But I am in no position to prove or disprove any of the theories. Therefore, I accept them with a grain of salt and dismiss the ones that seem to big a stretch. In the end though it's just my opinion that shapes my interpretation of the event…just like nearly everyone else.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:10PM
ozoneocean at 9:59AM, March 30, 2006
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I think that's what Finbar was saying Jesus….
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:23PM
Ronson at 10:47AM, March 30, 2006
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Everything asserted is debateable on the internet and mass media. If you aren't an engineer, you can find and engineer who doubts another engineer's theories.

What something like “Loose Change” does, though, is put ALL the strange post-9/11 theories together in a tight little package. And I think it would be impossible to watch the whole thing and not have at least a few questions.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:10PM
lothar at 5:31AM, April 3, 2006
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if you think that is crazy , check this out http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-732845682703884418&q=911&pl=true
this guy makes me scared , watching this makes me wonder about my own sanity , that i sat through the whole thing !
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:45PM
Ronson at 7:02AM, April 3, 2006
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Jesus
Steel losing its integrity like that is not exactly a disputed theory. Neither is gravity.

No, but whether or not it reached the temperature to do what is claimed is disputed. There are engineers on both sides claiming different things.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:10PM
Ronson at 11:03AM, April 4, 2006
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Jesus
The shape and insulation in the building make it VERY probable that it did reach those temperatures, and lets take it a bit further.

You don't understand what I'm saying. I'm saying that anyone who didn't analyze the wreckage AND have the knowledge to know what they're looking at can be convinced of anything.

You, for example, say that it's obvious. Other people - equally or better educated than you - have come forward and said the obvious.

Now, maybe you're right. Maybe they're right. Generally, us on the sidelines are pretty much listening to everyone and making our own decisions based on little more than gut feelings.

Right now, I can point to credentialed engineers on both sides saying opposing things AND someone with a censored pixel avatar whose knowledge I don't know of siding with one side of the argument.

I don't know what happened. I personally find it EXTREMELY unlikely that the WTC was a controlled demolition.

We'd be dealing with a MASSIVE conspiracy in which you would need thousands of people to keep in check. A conspiracy is best done when there are fewer people involved, as its harder to control more people and keep them from leaking anything.

This is erroneous thinking. You only think this because of the conspiracies that are public. For all you know that's just a FRACTION of the conspiracies that exist.

It depends on how secure you personally are with events that happen beyond your sight.

I assert that this could possibly have been done by a small group of people over a large span of time.

Personally though, I also have my doubts. But I can't base that on any set of facts that are presently in existence.

If the government wanted to make a conspiracy, they'd just use a bomb and release some tapes.

Lord knows Al'Qauda already tried to use bombs, what, 5 times already?

You are making the association between Al' Queda and government action. If I were a conspiracy nut, I could certainly weave a story where government agents placed explosives in the WTC and then WAITED for a terrorist organization to do something - anything - to the WTC. Then BOOM. Whatever effect was expected would be catastrophic.

Is this going too far? I think so. But can I understand how some people could think that way after the excessive secrecy of our current administration? Sure.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:10PM
ozoneocean at 11:29AM, April 4, 2006
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Jesus
We'd be dealing with a MASSIVE conspiracy in which you would need thousands of people to keep in check. A conspiracy is best done when there are fewer people involved, as its harder to control more people and keep them from leaking anything.
Yeah, I personally think the WTC thing is genuine, no conspiracy.
But I do know of a real conspiracy, and it's many times larger than what the WTC one would have to be if it was real: The case for war in Iraq.
That's a giant conspiracy, it's an obvious one, and there have been several token enquiries made into it. And yet no one has been punished. It not only makes the apparently fake WTC conspiracy, but also Watergate look like children’s jokes, and yet it's held together pretty well, even though there were many people, government agencies, a and few countries involved.

So that just goes to show that conspiracies are perfectly feasible, no matter how large they are or how many people are involved in them. In fact, going on our experience with “the case for war” it could almost be said that the ones that get found out are the exception.

Scary stuff… Maybe the WTC conspiracy is real afterall? :shock:
Naaah!
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:23PM
Ronson at 5:22AM, April 17, 2006
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totallyilladvised
I can't drink caffiene, I'm hypertensive.

But I'm sick of all this. Nobody's looking at the real issues.

Muslim/Jewish relations are at an all time low, and our support of Isreal has pulled us into a centuries old conflict.

Our Government has hidden behind the “9/11” to do some of the most underhanded things in decades (The Patriot Act?)

Which was impossible without 9/11

What is not an issue is who in our government pulled the trigger on 9/11.

All the evidence supports a militant Muslim sect. There's no evidence pointing at Cheney or anyone else because THEY DIDN'T DO IT.

But, by their actions, did they allow it?

Yeah, Bush is an idiot, and didn't handle the first hour and a half well, but Christ, who would have?

Short list: Carter, Reagan, Bush Sr., Clinton, Gore…
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:10PM

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