Debate and Discussion

LOVE
isukun at 11:06AM, Jan. 16, 2010
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A girl being hot is nature's way of telling us dudes, that she's relatively healthy, and therefore it's time to make babies.

This is kind of an older thread, but I don't really agree with this statement. What's considered “hot” has changed over the generations based on social standards. Today those standards aren't really based on what would be considered naturally “healthy”. Also, you have numerous fetishes in modern society which go completely against this theory.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:05PM
Hawk at 12:06PM, Jan. 16, 2010
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Well, you can always find exceptions and irregularities, but I think he's right… Everything I've studied and read says that for the most part our idea of beauty is tied to signs of health.

Fetishes figure into those exceptions and irregularities.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:47PM
isukun at 10:14PM, Jan. 16, 2010
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If that were true, then women wouldn't be damaging their health due to unrealistic notions of “beauty” in modern society. I'm not talking just fetishes. The common notions of beauty vary not just over time, but regionally as well, and not all common notions of what is considered beautiful is healthy generally or for reproduction. Fetishes are just a small scale example of what we do as a society. We aren't hard coded to seek out the most fertile and healthy women. We have personal preferences which are usually beat into us by the media and our surroundings.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:05PM
Hawk at 11:50PM, Jan. 16, 2010
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I'll assume you're talking about women being too thin or anorexic (among other things, I'm sure).

I'm convinced that men don't really want women to be as thin as they think we do. And I'm still waiting to meet a man who doesn't think Kate Moss and Calista Flockhart are too skinny. And as for changing ideas of beauty, and how earlier in history it was the plumper people who were considered beautiful, maybe back then the fatter people WERE the healthier ones.

I don't have scientific data or sources to back me up. It's just something I've thought a lot about, and I could easily be wrong.

Here's a BBC documentary all about beauty. Maybe you've seen it. It spends some time talking about this very topic and it's one that I find very fascinating. It's also good for artists and character designers, for different reasons. (there are multiple parts, too)



The makers of this documentary seem to want to connect beauty with signs of health, and the idea makes sense to me. Something makes me want to think that our natural drive to continue the species has a lot more to do with attraction than a magazine or movie “telling” us what we're supposed to think is beautiful.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:47PM
BffSatan at 12:24AM, Jan. 17, 2010
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There is a lot of factors that come into beauty, it's not that simple. I've heard that having similar facial features and a different scent (therefore different immune system) can make a person beautiful to someone. Some say that wider hips are considered beautiful because they aid in childbirth. Really it is down to hundreds of factors and most of it is just theory, no one has really been able to prove anything. Saying it all comes down to health and health only is ridiculous.

Really every society and every individual person within a society has different views on what is beautiful so there is no single rule to sum it all up.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:21AM
isukun at 1:45AM, Jan. 17, 2010
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And as for changing ideas of beauty, and how earlier in history it was the plumper people who were considered beautiful, maybe back then the fatter people WERE the healthier ones.

And what about standards in places like Japan, where prior to Western influence it was the sickly women who were considered ideal wives. Even to this day, there is still some of that sentiment left in their society. Then you have cultures where self mutilation and crippling women was considered sexy. You can't tell me stuff like foot binding in China made women healthier or more capable of bearing children. It was an aesthetic choice supported by their culture.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:05PM
ozoneocean at 5:33AM, Jan. 17, 2010
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There is always a massive problem when trying to reduce human cultural practices to some mythological characterisation of an evolutionary imperative.

That problem is: Reality.

The reality is that we are not simple creatures with simple drives that respond to simple stimuli in predictable ways. We have thousands and thousands of years of complex cultural systems interwoven around and mediating our social interactions. Evolution isn't just about simple physical change and adaption either, our culture and existence as a social species is because of evolution.

Therefore, saying beauty is about something as simple as Health is like saying aesthetics in cars are just all about colour.

You could say a notion of “health”has some bearing on perceptions of beauty, but exaggerating the importance of that factor is not a good idea. Someone who's doing a PHD or writing a paper on the subject might want to do that, it'll make their name and get them attention, but then that's the function of academics.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:35PM
Kroatz at 5:22PM, Feb. 3, 2010
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In my opinion Love is what seperates us from animals. back in the days when we all were animals it was hormones that caused our will to mate. Now it isn't anymore, the effect all kinds of hormones have on human beings has steadily reduced over thousands of years.
Love is more important now than it has ever been, it's not a chemical reaction any more, now it's a choice. you choose to love someone, you give it meaning.







Now stop looking at me like that.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 1:23PM
isukun at 7:22PM, Feb. 3, 2010
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Now it isn't anymore, the effect all kinds of hormones have on human beings has steadily reduced over thousands of years.

Increasing divorce rates and teen pregnancies seems to suggest otherwise. Hormones are still a major part of attraction. As a society we try to downplay and reduce their effects, but men's romantic inclinations still tend to come from that lower place and a lot of the emotion which defines the genders is a product of different hormonal compositions. If hormones play sucha vital role in our everyday personalities, there is no way they don't also effect our relationships.

Love is more important now than it has ever been, it's not a chemical reaction any more, now it's a choice. you choose to love someone, you give it meaning.

Actually, I find as our society tries harder to limit its hormonal responses to the opposite gender, our relationships become increasingly less meaningful. Hence, once again, the higher divorce rates. I find that the more lasting marriages tend to start with a long physical relationship beforehand. Quite often, your newfangled internet weddings and those people who rush into marriage because they make a choice and don't familiarize themselves with their mate intimately, tend to end in a pretty quick divorce.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:05PM
ozoneocean at 7:28PM, Feb. 3, 2010
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Kroatz
In my opinion Love is what seperates us from animals. back in the days when we all were animals it was hormones that caused our will to mate. Now it isn't anymore, the effect all kinds of hormones have on human beings has steadily reduced over thousands of years.
Humans are still animals. There's no separation other than a “human” animal is not a “cat” animal, or a spider, or a prawn, or an albatross or a salmon etc. They're all animals and so are we. :)

Various other animals have “love” in exactly the same way humans do, in all respects. But it depends on the species.

Different species have very different mating practices, love is an aspect of that.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:35PM
Kroatz at 12:41AM, Feb. 4, 2010
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OK, I meant of course separates us from other animals, we are in more than one respect different.

Ozoneocean
Various other animals have “love” in exactly the same way humans do, in all respects.

An albatross or salmon has their own kind of love, mostly coming out of instinct and hormones. A prawn probably has something similar yet more underdeveloped, none of these animals go on dates, try to get to know each other or fall in love with words. They see shining feathers and glistening scales and they are sold.

I agree that humans, especially teenagers, have similar interests. (beauty, not scales ;)) But humans have evolved. their ‘love’ has evolved, for thousands upon thousands of years. The same is in my opinion true about monkeys, who actually bond, and other more developed species (including the snipe).

Oh, and the increasing divorce rates are mostly due to the fact that about 94,5 percent of the earths population consists of idiots and morons (DrunkDuckers excluded of course). People easily mistake being horny for true love.

isukun
Actually, I find as our society tries harder to limit its hormonal responses to the opposite gender, our relationships become increasingly less meaningful. Hence, once again, the higher divorce rates. I find that the more lasting marriages tend to start with a long physical relationship beforehand. Quite often, your newfangled internet weddings and those people who rush into marriage because they make a choice and don't familiarize themselves with their mate intimately, tend to end in a pretty quick divorce.

I totally agree, I don't believe that this makes ‘love’ less meaningfull though. My grandmom and grandpop have been together for about 287 years and they are still happy. That is love, what celebrities and such do, get married, get divorced, get remarried, cheat with the poolguy and sleep with the guy at McDonalds, that is not what I mean when I say love.

And before we start a war about… Semantics? is that what it's called? …I'd like to say that you all have valid points. Men do tend to think more with their ‘hormones’ than with their brain and most animals are capable of some form of love.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 1:23PM
ozoneocean at 7:32PM, Feb. 4, 2010
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Kroatz
But humans have evolved. their ‘love’ has evolved, for thousands upon thousands of years. The same is in my opinion true about monkeys, who actually bond, and other more developed species (including the snipeBut humans have evolved. their ‘love’ has evolved, for thousands upon thousands of years. The same is in my opinion true about monkeys, who actually bond, and other more developed species (including the snipe
Evolving doesn't mean “advancing beyond”, it just means “change”.

Our “love” thing hasn't had some sort of separate evolutionary spurt. Why would it? That would be bizarre. What you're thinking of is our thousands of years of layers of culture resulting from our advanced and intricate social interactions and how that changes the way we perceive our “instinctual” directives.

Many other animals feel emotional attachments to each other, but because they're so utterly unlike humans in many ways we often have trouble perceiving it, and when we do we rationalise it away as anthropomorphism- this attitude comes from ancient religious ideas about animals not having a “soul”, only functioning as organic automatons, which was adopted by some later philosophers and scientists as a way to morally justify animal exploitation in industry, agriculture and research.- which is funny considering the origin of that attitude.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:35PM
isukun at 1:21AM, Feb. 5, 2010
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The only thing which really differentiates humans from other animals is the complexity of our oral form of communication. It has allowed us to compound knowledge over the generations and pass it down, evolving our social structure as that knowledge expands. When it comes down to it, though, we are still members of the animal kingdom, subject to the same chemical and biological influences as other animals. Both men and women still build their relationships on physical responses to other people. That's why people still have erotic reactions to all five of the basic senses. We aren't reacting just socially, but physically to stimulii our bodies interpret as sexual. Sure, we try to suppress some of this, but it's really not possible to fully ignore one's physical reactions and those reactions still play a pretty major role in the wooing process.

none of these animals go on dates, try to get to know each other or fall in love with words.

Actually, a lot of animals have mating rituals or displays. Although not as complex as dating and using a simpler “vocabulary”, many animals do try to get to know their mates. There are even animals who get so attached to their mates, that they will not mate with any other member of their species even if their chosen mate dies prematurely.

their ‘love’ has evolved, for thousands upon thousands of years.

I would argue that it really has't evolved that much. Love, as an emotion, and as we define it today, has been around for thousands of years. People in the modern era can easily read a love story from several thousand years back and have no problem understanding it. The only thing that's really changed is the mating ritual and our social standards (i.e. the kinds of pairings and actions we allow when two people, or more, love one another), not the concept of love.

Oh, and the increasing divorce rates are mostly due to the fact that about 94,5 percent of the earths population consists of idiots and morons

Except that isn't really something that has changed over the years.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:05PM
ramlama at 7:26AM, Feb. 5, 2010
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isukun
I would argue that it really has't evolved that much. Love, as an emotion, and as we define it today, has been around for thousands of years. People in the modern era can easily read a love story from several thousand years back and have no problem understanding it. The only thing that's really changed is the mating ritual and our social standards (i.e. the kinds of pairings and actions we allow when two people, or more, love one another), not the concept of love.
I'm recalling some references in one history class or another about how there've been times when romantic love- the thing we think of as love nowadays- was seen more of a madness than as an ideal to aspire to.

In some circles, the thing most people mistake for love is called New Relationship Energy- that initial cocktail of hormonal responses that make you absolutely intrigued about the person, that knock you off your feet, that make you think they are the most amazing creature in the world. Thing is, it has a a shelf-life… when that surge dies down, maybe after a few weeks or months, people wonder where the magic went- they don't feel the way they used to. They've obviously fallen out of love.

Then they wonder why their relationships don't have the epic lengths of their ancestors, wondering to themselves if they'll ever find true love… and never realizing that what they think is true love might not have been the basis for those long successful relationships.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:00PM
isukun at 12:00PM, Feb. 5, 2010
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I'm recalling some references in one history class or another about how there've been times when romantic love- the thing we think of as love nowadays- was seen more of a madness than as an ideal to aspire to.

You're still referring to social acceptance and not social perception, though. How people rationalize something and how they define it aren't always the same thing.

In some circles, the thing most people mistake for love is called New Relationship Energy- that initial cocktail of hormonal responses that make you absolutely intrigued about the person, that knock you off your feet, that make you think they are the most amazing creature in the world.

Or it's simply possible that that is what love always has been and social stigmas against divorce and a greater willingness to compromise made past relationships last longer. Plus, in the past, people felt a greater responsibility towards maintaining the family unit, while in the modern era a greater emphasis is placed on the individual and the indvidual's needs at the expense of the rest of the family. We're starting to get to a point where “homemaker” isn't really a viable career choice, anymore.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:05PM
The Gravekeeper at 12:25PM, Feb. 6, 2010
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isukun
I'm recalling some references in one history class or another about how there've been times when romantic love- the thing we think of as love nowadays- was seen more of a madness than as an ideal to aspire to.

You're still referring to social acceptance and not social perception, though. How people rationalize something and how they define it aren't always the same thing.

In some circles, the thing most people mistake for love is called New Relationship Energy- that initial cocktail of hormonal responses that make you absolutely intrigued about the person, that knock you off your feet, that make you think they are the most amazing creature in the world.

Or it's simply possible that that is what love always has been and social stigmas against divorce and a greater willingness to compromise made past relationships last longer. Plus, in the past, people felt a greater responsibility towards maintaining the family unit, while in the modern era a greater emphasis is placed on the individual and the indvidual's needs at the expense of the rest of the family. We're starting to get to a point where “homemaker” isn't really a viable career choice, anymore.

I think part of it might be because quite a few people don't realize that a relationship isn't always bliss. Disney fairytale endings just don't happen in real life; when you're with someone long enough you're going to fight once in a while, you're going to disagree on things, you're going to see all their flaws. If any relationship is going to last then both people have to work at it; I think a lot of people have forgotten that little fact and are more little to jump on the break-up/divorce train because reality didn't meet their expectations.
last edited on July 14, 2011 4:14PM
LOOKIS at 9:00PM, Feb. 7, 2010
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The three steps to love…

1) First you have to like the idea of having a relationship.
2) Then you have to like someone as a potential relationship partner.
3) Then you have to commit to that person, make the promise that you will be there for them, help them, back them up, support them, believe in them, and if it's a sexual relationship then you promise to have many pleasurable sexual experiences with them.

I think the biological hormone part of love comes in at the first step, the desire for a relationship. I think the vast majority of people will agree that the urge to find someone to love comes first and then you decide who it will be.

Is there a “perfect love”? Sure. That would be one where both partners are 100% committed to each others well-being. It would mean they have no secrets from each other, tell each other everything from feelings to activities, and plan their future as a couple and not as two individuals.

Is it rare? Of course. We are brought up to value individuality, so we don't like the idea of giving it up to be half of a couple. Some people never do give it up. And even the people who do form couples usually are not 100% committed because they want to reserve some individuality for themselves. So that's why “perfect love” seems rare.

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last edited on July 14, 2011 1:39PM
Sariling Mundo at 9:44AM, April 9, 2010
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kyupol
What is love to you?

…is there really something of a deeper, more profound spiritual nature to the idea of LOVE?

Is it true that you and your partner are destined to be together because of God's will?

Is it true that you and your partner are somehow on the same level of spiritual evolution, therefore making you compatible with one another?

Is it true that there are no coincidences… and such that fate has guided both of you to cross one another's path? Such that before you were born, both your souls were already familiar to one another in a previous life.

Is LOVE this ever present force in the universe that all life forms need in order to create a balance within themselves? Since it appears to be that a lack of love is what triggers people to fall into the dark side.

Discuss.

I've had moments when I would almost believe this. You know how it's like in a movie when a guy is in love with someone and he'd start seeing “magical” signs that seem to indicate that the girl's indeed “the one?” Or when he crosses paths with the girl several times seemingly out of pure coincidence, and he thinks that maybe there are forces at work conspiring to get them together? Guess what, that stuff really happens. It's happened to me. The significant difference though is that happy endings don't seem to be such a guarantee in real life.

If we're indeed to accept love as something that is decreed by the fates, well, from my experience fate seems to enjoy laying out a red carpet and then pulling it right out from under me. Or maybe there's nothing at all cosmic about love, and all those times that I'd been seeing “signs,” it was just my love-addled brain playing tricks on me.

But then, my experiences directly led me to create The Intrepid TORPEDO, and to some extent Painkiller, that sometimes I think maybe fate was leading me somewhere. Just not the place I'd thought I'd be.

In general, I'm a bit uncomfortable with the idea that every single thing that happens to us on this planet is predestined, even if it does involve something as positive as love. I'm a firm believer in free will; as far as love goes, I'd rather that I sucked at it due to my own ineptitude than because destiny decided that it wasn't meant to be. If some cosmic agency is involved somehow, I'd rather that their influence went as far as steering us in a particular direction and offering us certain choices, but the final move would be ours.

I think I'm digressing somewhat, sorry for that. Back to the topic of love, I have always been something of a romantic-cynic (or a cynical-romantic). I have some awareness of how the real world works and am not surprised when a romantic interlude crashes and burns. Disappointed, hurt, even angry, but never surprised. And yet, true love is something that I would still aspire to attain regardless of whatever pain I may yet endure. I guess I'm just masochistic that way. If one goes with the notion of love as a mere chemical reaction, let me tell you, it's one addictive drug.

And for those who simply can't believe in the existence of true love, let me put it this way: all fiction has a basis in fact.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 3:24PM
DrBob at 8:48PM, April 12, 2010
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kyupol
Is it just an instinctual reaction based on chemicals in the brain that get triggered by certain external stimuli…or is there really something of a deeper, more profound spiritual nature to the idea of LOVE?

Take any human feeling… love, fear, humor, hunger, whatever… and there is no “just” to any of them. We are biochemical beings, so yes all feelings are chemical reactions in our brain based on stimuli. But the fact that we have self-awareness adds complex layers to all of our feelings. Hunger is a chemical reaction, and yet we have junk food, gourmet chefs, food cravings, sexual fetishes involving food, and hunger is no longer “just” a chemical reaction. Doesn't mean it's God's will or fate to be hungry, only that simplifying hunger to just brain chemistry is to ignore the complexity of being human.

Love is a wonderful feeling, and it is encoded in our DNA to ensure survival of the species. But humans are a complex mix of many different reactions, where love meets fear meets self-awareness meets all our other emotions. Different experiences alter our perceptions. Emotional attachments and bonding we make to different individuals shapes our perceptions. And all of this is stored in our brain biochemically, so ultimately love is a series of chemical reactions in our brain. But it cannot be reduced to just instincts or external stimuli automatically triggering a response. It becomes far more complicated. That makes love, as well as all the other emotions we have as humans, a mystery that we will continue to unravel for a loooooong time.


kyupol
Is LOVE this ever present force in the universe that all life forms need in order to create a balance within themselves? Since it appears to be that a lack of love is what triggers people to fall into the dark side.

Lack of love? Sometimes it is love itself that pushes people into the dark side. People do very dark things in the name of love, whether it's love of God or love of country or love of a person. There are all sorts of things that push people into the dark side, sometimes it's love, sometimes lack of love.

last edited on July 14, 2011 12:16PM
kyupol at 7:21PM, July 22, 2010
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What about agape love? You know, its the highest form of love which is selfless, unconditional, but unattached to anything.

When I say attached, its like the attachment you have for your wife or husband or girlfriend or boyfriend. I call it attached because wouldn't you get angry if you see him/her going out with someone else? Why are you angry? Is it because you somehow think that he/she belongs to you? Is it because you are POSSESSIVE?

But what about doing something selfless even though people may be ungrateful to you for what you are doing? Like Jesus Christ. They nailed him to the cross. What about this urge… this feeling that drives you to volunteer your time and labor for a charitable end… this feeling that drives you to volunteer your time and labor to unlock minds?

I'm telling you. The first couple of times I've engaged in unlocking minds (handing out Alex Jones DVDs, flyers to wake up people to the New World Order, etc.)… the first couple times I've helped the homeless… I've honestly felt this surge of energy from the heart that seemed to travel back and forth into the throat and sometimes all the way up to the crown of my head.

The heart, throat, and crown chakras being stimulated?

It was this intense unexplainable joy I've felt the moment I started caring for my fellow human beings. So intense that it moved me to tears.

And then for a few days after that, I simply could NOT:
- lust. I dont care if you bring me to a strip club. I won't feel anything.
- get angry over stupid things like somebody cutting me off on the highway or some minor annoyance at my day job.
- overeat (gluttony). Why do you think religious clerics fast routinely? Fasting is good for you in the spiritual sense.
- etc.

Lack of love? Sometimes it is love itself that pushes people into the dark side. People do very dark things in the name of love, whether it's love of God or love of country or love of a person. There are all sorts of things that push people into the dark side, sometimes it's love, sometimes lack of love.

Hey. I wrote about that in my comic. There's a scene where the demons are bragging about teaching humans love (counterfeit love… the bible says that the demons are capable of counterfeit signs, wonders and miracles… 2 Thessalonians 2:9) and saying what you said almost verbatim.

Wow.
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last edited on July 14, 2011 1:27PM
mlai at 2:25AM, July 23, 2010
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Someone
The first couple of times I've engaged in unlocking minds (handing out Alex Jones DVDs, flyers to wake up people to the New World Order, etc.)… the first couple times I've helped the homeless… I've honestly felt this surge of energy from the heart that seemed to travel back and forth into the throat and sometimes all the way up to the crown of my head.
I thought ppl who hold up “REPENT!” signs are just misguided. You mean to tell me that they actually get off over the act of it? Damn, no wonder there's no stopping these ppl.

As for helping the homeless… okay, I'll give you that. That's noble of you.

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last edited on July 14, 2011 2:06PM
kyupol at 7:26PM, July 23, 2010
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mlai
Someone
The first couple of times I've engaged in unlocking minds (handing out Alex Jones DVDs, flyers to wake up people to the New World Order, etc.)… the first couple times I've helped the homeless… I've honestly felt this surge of energy from the heart that seemed to travel back and forth into the throat and sometimes all the way up to the crown of my head.
I thought ppl who hold up “REPENT!” signs are just misguided. You mean to tell me that they actually get off over the act of it? Damn, no wonder there's no stopping these ppl.

As for helping the homeless… okay, I'll give you that. That's noble of you.

I've actually talked to one of those street preachers. I sat there for two hours listening to him. There were about 3 or 4 others listening… I was the last one after all of them left. I can really tell he believes in what he's saying.

He opened up to me. Told me that he used to make 6 figures a year as a 20 year old. That's easy if you inherit your father's established business as well as $50,000 in inheritance money. But then, he told me that one day, the Holy Spirit talked to him one Christmas eve as he was surrounded by a pile of hockey-related gifts (he's a big hockey fan and all his friends and family know it and so, they send him hockey merchandise).

He told me he suddenly got moved into tears because he realized that all these years he's been worshipping IDOLS (the hockey superstars) and worshipping MONEY. So as a way of repenting for his sin of idolatry, he decided to pick up his bible and preach. Told me he didn't sleep that night and kept on praying with tears in his eyes.

And because he became a “Jesus Freak”, he decided to give his business to a cousin then give all his savings to the poor. His wife didn't like that so she left him and took custody of his child. He now works as a janitor making between 20k-30k a year (that's just enough money to pay your bills… you're lucky to have any savings…) and does the preaching part time.

If I was in his position, I can't do that. I'm weak. It makes me ashamed of myself.
NOW UPDATING!!!
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:27PM
Genejoke at 1:14AM, July 26, 2010
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Such a funny thread, some really out there ideas too.

For me love is about attraction, compatibility and acceptance.

last edited on July 14, 2011 12:33PM
bravo1102 at 2:11AM, July 28, 2010
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We should all stop trying to define this funny little thing called love and just enjoy it. If all the time and effort spent on definitions and semantics and the other baggage of philosphy was put into the actual love relationships we'd all be much better off and the relationships could have endured and so many broken hearts avoided.

Rather than wrap yourself up in your philosophizing listen You want a relationship to work? Listen learn how to communicate your feelings and failings and understand that of the other person.

A radio play list of love songs can be so much more true and more perceptive than all the philosophy ever written.

“How to handle a woman? Love her.” or maybe the song that defines my happy marriage of 16 years, “Happy to be stuck with you.”

How have I remained married for 16 years? I stopped looking for definitions and reasons and dedicated myself to the relationship.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:33AM
RoccoSays at 9:12AM, Aug. 1, 2010
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Love is… other than phsysical attraction an emotion to make us feel good.
Exepct that there is no other emotion that can overrule that feeling.

:]

last edited on July 14, 2011 3:08PM

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