Debate and Discussion

Manga, is it like Mexican Food?
ShadowDion at 2:40PM, Nov. 6, 2007
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I came across a debate the other day, a debate I have heard time and time again. One person an avid fan and artist of manga, the other, not. It began with one ranting over how he thought manga was unoriginal and believed that it was overproduced and that much of webart is oversaturated in it. To that the manga-lover replied that they simply had not sampled enough to truly enjoy its beauty. The other replied that actually, he had indeed looked a quite a few works but still it did nothing for him. He compared it to Mexican food and that all though there are different dishes (burritos, taco, enchiladas, etc) they all have the same essential ingridents to them without much variation (flour/corn shell, meat, cheese, other vegetables).
I thought that particular point was interesting and thought it would make a good debate topic. A great deal of people here work in the manga style, but how original is it? Where is the line between being influenced by something and all out copying it?
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:32PM
mlai at 3:17PM, Nov. 6, 2007
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He's dissing Mexican food?! Why, because he's eaten at Taco Bell he thinks he can judge Mexican food?!

Mexican food in the USA is just like Chinese takeout - they all taste the same and damn Yankees end up thinking "So this is what they eat; and they always brag about their sophisticated and diverse cuisine?" Newsflash, authentic food tastes nothing like your takeout/drivethru, and has variations you've never dreamt of.

I'm hungry now.

FIGHT current chapter: Filling In The Gaps
FIGHT_2 current chapter: Light Years of Gold
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:06PM
ozoneocean at 3:19PM, Nov. 6, 2007
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It's an art style… You have variation within it like you have variation within anything. People saying manga is all the same are much like those who say that Chinese people all look the same. I think it sort of says more about the viewer than what they're looking at ;)

Now I'm hungry for Mexican too.
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:28PM
kyupol at 3:28PM, Nov. 6, 2007
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Manga is just like any other style of drawing. Some people like it, some people hate it.

During my noob days in art, my style was strictly a copycat of manga/anime. You know… big eyes and small mouth kinda deal. Why? Because in the Philippines, during my time the TV stations kept on bombarding us with anime. We get like 10 anime shows a day. Its just all around you. Even TV commercials sometimes used manga-style drawn characters. That stuff was just all around us.

Doesnt matter. You're playing basketball around 5 o clock… when 6 o clock comes somebody will say that yuyu hakusho is on TV… STOP RIGHT THERE. Everybody stops playing basketball just to watch that show. And when I was having my haircut… it was around 8 pm and the barber politely asked me if he can watch Dragon Ball Z and continue the haircut later. As if he needed 100% of his concentration power focused on DBZ that he cannot cut my hair at the same time… :( I agreed… since I liked watching DBZ and I dont wanna get my ears cut by accident… lol!

Manga has oversaturated the internet because of its brainwashing ability. I've tried my best to analyze that style but to no avail. I still cannot answer why Manga has such a POWERFUL brainwashing capability. Why? Just why is everybody (or most people) attracted to it? Hmmm… Is it because the shape of the faces? Is it because of the seemingly shiny eyes and hair? Is it the big boobs? Maybe so maybe not.

Manga has the undeniable ability to brainwash. lol I could just imagine a communist/jihadist Japan. COMMUNISM/JIHAD WILL SPREAD LIKE FIRE ALL OVER THE WORLD!!! lol!


Anyway, the brainwashing effects of anime has worn off a bit. No wonder some people told me that the stuff I make doesnt fall under the “manga” category. :)

NOW UPDATING!!!
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:25PM
Aurora Moon at 4:23PM, Nov. 6, 2007
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Manga has the power to brainwash? OMG, that's exactly what all those Anti-Asian people say too! I never imagined that kyubol would be saying the same thing as all those Anti-asian people who are so utterlly conviced that all asian people has some kind of evil adendga to push so that they would use “kids' cartoons and comics” to corrupt the young minds with nudity, violence, and so on forth. Despite the fact that a lot of the american cartoons such as tom and jerry is ten times more violent than any actual anime.

*laughs*

Nah, I think a better word would be “POPLUAR”. Of course with anything popular, people can be oversaturated in it to the point where they might hate it…

But even then, I don't hate it. I guess it's because I got into it before it became “popular” here. I remember how diffcult it was to find and get the animes I wanted to watch and the manga I wanted to read. I actually had to speically order those things off the net or have the stores speical-order it for me at a very pricy cost.

So I'm actually happy that it's gotten popular, because then it's very easy for me to find more quality animes and manga that I want to watch/read. of course the downside is that you get a lot of crap that you have to filter though to find the good ones. But that's something I'm willing to live with.

Oh, and I'd have to agree with Malai. I've eaten at some high-quality chiense and mexican food places (none of them being fast food). And they taste a whole lot different than those takeout/fast food drive through places. Also I've cooked plenty of Authentic Mexican and Chiense food as they were done by people in their home country. So much more delicious than the cheap takeout verison.
So to compare that kind of thing is just awfully ingorant.

But then again, I suppose I can use the same comparsion to say that people who has only had cheap takeout/drivethru has never truly experniced the real thing.
The same is said for manga. Snice it's become so popular, of course the companies here are bringing over a lot of crap that it might be diffcult to filter though to find something of worthy.

But being an Anime and an Manga fan, I know there's some animes and manga out there that are really worth it just to browse though all the piles of popularized stuff that they hope we'd buy.
I'm on hitatus while I redo one of my webcomics. Be sure to check it out when I'n done! :)
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:10AM
kyupol at 4:38PM, Nov. 6, 2007
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Manga has the power to brainwash? OMG, that's exactly what all those Anti-Asian people say too! I never imagined that kyubol would be saying the same thing as all those Anti-asian people who are so utterlly conviced that all asian people has some kind of evil adendga to push so that they would use “kids' cartoons and comics” to corrupt the young minds with nudity, violence, and so on forth. Despite the fact that a lot of the american cartoons such as tom and jerry is ten times more violent than any actual anime.

*laughs*

lol I'm asian and a fan of manga and anime. Being anti-asian would be downright stupid in my case.

With regards to that “evil agenda” thingy, I remember some of my teachers (Religious School) sometimes ranted about anime being an invention of the devil or something. lol!
NOW UPDATING!!!
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:25PM
Aurora Moon at 6:41PM, Nov. 6, 2007
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kyupol
Manga has the power to brainwash? OMG, that's exactly what all those Anti-Asian people say too! I never imagined that kyubol would be saying the same thing as all those Anti-asian people who are so utterlly conviced that all asian people has some kind of evil adendga to push so that they would use “kids' cartoons and comics” to corrupt the young minds with nudity, violence, and so on forth. Despite the fact that a lot of the american cartoons such as tom and jerry is ten times more violent than any actual anime.

*laughs*

lol I'm asian and a fan of manga and anime. Being anti-asian would be downright stupid in my case.

With regards to that “evil agenda” thingy, I remember some of my teachers (Religious School) sometimes ranted about anime being an invention of the devil or something. lol!

LOL. The Crazy Religious people here say the same thing. But then again, they say that about ANYTHING inducing an certain popular teenager's book about a school of wizards set in an FICTIONAL world. But I would have to say that if they really were cocerned about what their children viewed and watched… they could start with their own localized stuff!

But to get this back on track…..

the majority of anything is Crap, as the great Sci Fi writer Theodore Sturgeon said. 80% percent of endeavors in any medium are quickly forgotten…it's just a fact of life. That goes for TV shows, Movies, Books, Comics from all over. Even Anime.
You just need to know how to filter though the crap in order to find the shining dimanods in the rough.

And there's plenty of manga that are non-sterotypical. Remember, folks, anime is a medium, not a genre or a style. Disney is anime. Bluth is anime. Bakshi and Rankin/Bass are anime. Just like any other medium, the execution depends greatly on the artist.
I'm on hitatus while I redo one of my webcomics. Be sure to check it out when I'n done! :)
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:10AM
crazyninny at 7:01PM, Nov. 6, 2007
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It really comes down to what you like.
I love manga, but I can never say no to a good old fashion Marvel comic. *Spiderman all the way, he was my role model when I was really young.*

But I really don't see what the debate is all about. Seeing as my comic is manga based, I get thrown in the manga bin with out much glance. But when I look at other peoples comics, I don't judge on what orgin or what they draw like, I focus on character developent, and story sturucter.
But stories can also be brung up to debate. Why is it that we look at the art frist, but the story secound? The art can be different from manga, but I've seen some that follow heavy shougo plot lines, and vice versa.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:48AM
ShadowDion at 7:13PM, Nov. 6, 2007
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mlai
Mexican food in the USA is just like Chinese takeout - they all taste the same and damn Yankees end up thinking "So this is what they eat; and they always brag about their sophisticated and diverse cuisine?" Newsflash, authentic food tastes nothing like your takeout/drivethru, and has variations you've never dreamt of.

i think you missed to basic metaphor what he was trying to get at. putting your american bashing aside, what is the basic ingredients to a taco? i don't care if it's taco bell or hand-made by a mexican chief? well, a shell, seasoned beef, cheese, maybe lettuce, tomato…what about nachos? chips, beef, cheese, maybe beans, some vegetables. who about a quesdilla? a shell, cheese, maybe some vegetables. when it comes down to it, mexican food has some pretty standard ingredients for something to be consider a taco, nachos, ect.
now what about manga? well it is pretty angular figures, big eyes, small mouths, etc. no one will deny there are variations, but it clearly isn't that deviated if the artist themselves is classifying it as manga. to classify yourself in that category is, in a sense, admitting that you follow that visual style in some way.
now if an artist were to copy any other style, let's say that of Bill Amend (Fox Trot) who has a very distinct, geometric style, people would say he was ripping Amend off. even if you adjusted some aspects of Amend's style, most would still consider you unoriginal. to say that manga looks very much the same isn't that outlandish when you do consider the diversity of styles that exist beyond it.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:32PM
TheSwordUpsilon at 7:15PM, Nov. 6, 2007
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Lawl, when I saw the topic title, I thoght it was made by someone who thoght Manga was food. :P
WAKA LAKA!
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last edited on July 14, 2011 4:28PM
Aurora Moon at 7:37PM, Nov. 6, 2007
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Lawl, when I saw the topic title, I thought it was made by someone who thought Manga was food. :P

lol yeah, I first thought that too as well.

Dion… I suppose it'd be fair to compare your style to Garfield, then? And there's so many American comics out there that has that whole huge-ass eyes, button noses thing like Garfield long before Manga ever became popular….

In fact I see at least two of your comics are “guilty” of having tiny noses and huge eyes that most people accuse Manga to have.

The only reason why I even put two of my comics under the “manga” style is not because I'm following the styles of Japanese Comic artists in particular, but mainly because I'm actually drawing it “Anime-style”. and Manga was the only closest thing I could describe it as, even though it's not exactly accurate.

After all, I'm not really following any specific Japanese comic artist's style. I'm actually parodying it to some degree. In fact my comics lack a lot of the elements of manga– Black and white, screen-tones, certain Japanese formats. the only thing it has in common with Manga: Anime-looking characters, that's it.
The only reason why I have that whole “Japanese cartoon art” look is because I grew up watching animes which I loved more than most American stuff at the time. So naturally I grew up drawing from ANIME, not manga.

I just simply put it in the same category as Manga because it may be easier for people who are more inclined to love my stuff than anybody else to find me. of course the irony is that a few amount of people have told me that they didn't like my comic because I wasn't following the “Traditional Manga” look.
I'm on hitatus while I redo one of my webcomics. Be sure to check it out when I'n done! :)
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:10AM
ShadowDion at 8:24PM, Nov. 6, 2007
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Aurora Moon
Dion… I suppose it'd be fair to compare your style to Garfield, then? And there's so many American comics out there that has that whole huge-ass eyes, button noses thing like Garfield long before Manga ever became popular….

In fact I see at least two of your comics are “guilty” of having tiny noses and huge eyes that most people accuse Manga to have.

The only reason why I even put two of my comics under the “manga” style is not because I'm following the styles of Japanese Comic artists in particular, but mainly because I'm actually drawing it “Anime-style”. and Manga was the only closest thing I could describe it as, even though it's not exactly accurate.

After all, I'm not really following any specific Japanese comic artist's style. I'm actually parodying it to some degree. In fact my comics lack a lot of the elements of manga– Black and white, screen-tones, certain Japanese formats. the only thing it has in common with Manga: Anime-looking characters, that's it.
The only reason why I have that whole “Japanese cartoon art” look is because I grew up watching animes which I loved more than most American stuff at the time. So naturally I grew up drawing from ANIME, not manga.

I just simply put it in the same category as Manga because it may be easier for people who are more inclined to love my stuff than anybody else to find me. of course the irony is that a few amount of people have told me that they didn't like my comic because I wasn't following the “Traditional Manga” look.

listen, if this is going to become a personal attack on my style i'll just have a mod lock this forum. i didn't come here to start a fight or get people angry, i came here to honestly discuss whether people viewed manga/anime/japanese style, whatever you may call it, as original. i'm not trying to offend people and if you believe your style or the manga style has enough variation/is original then you have nothing to be offended over.
now regarding my style, if you want to compare my work to garfield or whomever, go right ahead. you can say it looks like that or this and be petty and say that i don't an original style either, i don't care. no matter what type of eyes i did you could say it was something else; if i had them circles they would look like the simpsons, if i did dots, blondie, if they had pupils in the iris, mickey mouse. i won't deny that i have been influenced by artstyles, every artist has, and there is nothing wrong with that.
however, my point is, there is a difference between usings aspects, features and techniques of an artist, and copying there style. now i think my postures are more dynamic than jim davis, and that my clothing has more dimension than his. i'm not sure you would even know what i'm talking since you may have just gone to my profile and seen two thumbnails and believed you could comprehend my entire style from those two images. that's cool.
so if you'd like to get back to the actual debate, i will gladly continue, but if you'd rather critique my work, we can continue it in PM's.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:32PM
Kilre at 8:45PM, Nov. 6, 2007
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ShadowDion
listen, if this is going to become a personal attack on my style i'll just have a mod lock this forum. i didn't come here to start a fight or get people angry, i came here to honestly discuss whether people viewed manga/anime/japanese style, whatever you may call it, as original. i'm not trying to offend people and if you believe your style or the manga style has enough variation/is original then you have nothing to be offended over.
now regarding my style, if you want to compare my work to garfield or whomever, go right ahead. you can say it looks like that or this and be petty and say that i don't an original style either, i don't care. no matter what type of eyes i did you could say it was something else; if i had them circles they would look like the simpsons, if i did dots, blondie, if they had pupils in the iris, mickey mouse. i won't deny that i have been influenced by artstyles, every artist has, and there is nothing wrong with that.
however, my point is, there is a difference between usings aspects, features and techniques of an artist, and copying there style. now i think my postures are more dynamic than jim davis, and that my clothing has more dimension than his. i'm not sure you would even know what i'm talking since you may have just gone to my profile and seen two thumbnails and believed you could comprehend my entire style from those two images. that's cool.
so if you'd like to get back to the actual debate, i will gladly continue, but if you'd rather critique my work, we can continue it in PM's.

Whoa now, sonny Jim. If you can't handle comparisons don't dish ‘em out yourself.

Edit:

On topic: I’ve seen several different variations of both US- and manga styles. I've seen a few similarities, too. Large eyes, bulbous noses a la Garfield and such–thanks Aurora. We borrow artistic ideas from across the seas a lot; if you're getting tired of manga, you're probably getting tired of our stuff, too.

It's all the same strokes, used a little bit differently. If you take a good gander at a lot of the comics on our side of the ocean, they will look a lot alike..because that's how a great many of our comic artists draw.

Either way, considering all the material out here and there, it's the same stuff. If you can't see the similarities, that's like saying all white people look alike.

(They kinda do, too)
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:15PM
mlai at 8:56PM, Nov. 6, 2007
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Who cares about manga? Let's talk about food.

FIGHT current chapter: Filling In The Gaps
FIGHT_2 current chapter: Light Years of Gold
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:06PM
ShadowDion at 9:07PM, Nov. 6, 2007
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Kilre
Whoa now, sonny Jim. If you can't handle comparisons don't dish 'em out yourself.

quite the contary, i have no problem with the comparison, i see it myself. my point was that i could have drawn anyway and i would have been related to another artist simply because Aurora wanted to critique my style.
i can easily tell you that i have been influenced my many artists and i can cite most of them, some of them not even comic strip artists. but as i have said, there is a line between being influenced and copying a style without an alterations.

Kilre
On topic: I've seen several different variations of both US- and manga styles. I've seen a few similarities, too. Large eyes, bulbous noses a la Garfield and such–thanks Aurora. We borrow artistic ideas from across the seas a lot; if you're getting tired of manga, you're probably getting tired of our stuff, too.

It's all the same strokes, used a little bit differently. If you take a good gander at a lot of the comics on our side of the ocean, they will look a lot alike..because that's how a great many of our comic artists draw.

Either way, considering all the material out here and there, it's the same stuff. If you can't see the similarities, that's like saying all white people look alike.

(They kinda do, too)

i'm not quite sure where your from or what ‘your stuff is’ but here's an example of why i disagree:



two artists, extremely different, both talented, both sucuessful.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:32PM
Kilre at 9:24PM, Nov. 6, 2007
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ShadowDion
two artists, extremely different, both talented, both sucuessful.

I can see the similarities. Can you?

-Large nose
-Close-together eyes

I've seen the same thing in some manga.



From Metropolis. Note how it resembles a bunch of our own works. It's not recent, but it proves my point.



Also has the large eyes we see so often.

Edit: In closing, it's all the same anyways, it's just the individual differences that, I suppose, get your boat afloat.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:15PM
bobhhh at 9:55PM, Nov. 6, 2007
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I personally refuse to judge things on whether they are Manga or not. If its good, its good. Whether its manga, love and rockets or she hulk, if its cool its cool.

lots of manga is mediocre, same as with any art, but some of it sublime and very hot!!
My name is Bob and I approved this signature.
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:29AM
Aurora Moon at 10:24PM, Nov. 6, 2007
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Dion–

I didn't mean to get your panties in a twist… I wasn't criticizing your style at all.
All I was saying that if you wanted to say that Manga or even “Anime” artists were less of a artist for taking up an popular way of drawing, then you have to consider how many million artists out there pretty much draw the same way in other “styles”, whenever it be “American” or even “French/English/whatever” style.

And I was just only merely using your work as an example of how you were one of the many people who took after a certain style even if you made it your own by adding your own differences. :)

in other words, I was just saying there's no way anybody can be fully “original” in the sense that they'd create a whole new Genre of style that was their own.
but others hit it on the nail pretty well for me anyway.

They're right, you know. In the end, all cartoony styles are pretty much the same–large eyes, tiny noses, etc.
So I could say that your work looked exactly like Garfield and that you were just copying the artist who got “popular”… but that wouldn't be very fair. Especially after the effort that you put into it to make it “your own”.

Yes, there are the few who would go to the trouble of EXACTLY copying their favorite Japanese Manga artist….

But there are many Manga artists, such as myself, who strive to take a certain style and make it our own with our own unique methods.

So if somebody came up to me and told me: “LOL, your an manga artist… you're just nothing but a copycat!” then my response would be:
'But I haven't directly copied off ANY artist nor any certain animation at all. I'm only merely drawing my comic in a style that I like and are comfortable with. And along the way I make an effort to improve and experiment with it. So exactly, HOW am I an copy cat? That's certainly not being fair. Nor to all the other manga artists who makes a real effort to improve and evolve along the way!'

Yeah. it's basically all about what floats your boat.
I'm on hitatus while I redo one of my webcomics. Be sure to check it out when I'n done! :)
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:10AM
ozoneocean at 10:29PM, Nov. 6, 2007
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I stand by my analogy of comparing it to people who say that all Chinese look alike… And to a person who hasn't seen many Chinese people before, maybe they really do? But that doesn't mean they actually do, it's just from the perspective of the untutored eye. Just the same as many people not used to “Western” comics think they're all exactly same. We see massive stylistic differences in stuff, but only because we're used to it.

Jeez, people say dumb stuff all the time because they don't realise that something they think is universally, objectively true, is actually only subjectively true from a very narrow perspective. I myself do it excessively! :)

I once had a friend tell me he hated anime because “it all looked the same each time”… He was of the opinion that animation should be all done in different styles for some reason, because that's how American and European animation seemed to him. I asked him why live action movies didn't offend him because all the actors are all “in the same style each time” there too? He didn't get it…

Basically, all good, popular art, art that communicates really well, and LASTS, works within sets of conventions. We can see some of the more obvious visual conventions in Manga because we're outside of it. All Western comics art works within conventions too, and different types of it (action hero/Sunday funnies) have different conventions, just like different kinds of East Asian comics have different ones. The thing is though, we can't see our own as easily as we see their's so we mistakenly think we have none and that they're the only ones who work that way.

It's NOT SO! And I STILL want some Mexican…
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:28PM
ShadowDion at 10:35PM, Nov. 6, 2007
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Kilre
I can see the similarities. Can you?

-Large nose
-Close-together eyes

I've seen the same thing in some manga.

From Metropolis. Note how it resembles a bunch of our own works. It's not recent, but it proves my point.

Also has the large eyes we see so often.

Edit: In closing, it's all the same anyways, it's just the individual differences that, I suppose, get your boat afloat.


i'm sorry, there simply aren't that many differences.
zits: full of line variation, expressive marks, clearly done with in inks, pressences of shades, bends in fabrics, looser postures, more organic feel to the form, greater detail, great ariticulation of emotion
dilbert: same line thickness throughout, more polished, could have been done digitally, lack of shading, little or no bends in fabric, stiffer postures, more geometric feel, less detail, consistency of characters

all of these may be minor differences but when you put them together you get two drastically different styles. there is nothing wrong with being influenced by a manga or any style, i would even tolerate a great resemblence with some alterations. i would simply like to see more artists honestly forging a style that is distinctly theirs, even if it is as crude as ‘The Far Side’.


last edited on July 14, 2011 3:32PM
Aurora Moon at 10:44PM, Nov. 6, 2007
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It's too bad you live so far away, ozoneocean– I make a pretty good Chicken Enchilada. LOL

And by the way, did you know that The food that most people in USA think is mexican is actually a verison called TEX-MEX? So it's not really an traditonal staple of mexican food…

In addition to the fact that traditional Mex. food can be far different from Tex-Mex, Mexico is such a sprawling country that while traveling in Mexico you will likely encounter many regional differences as well.For example, in the area surrounding Puebla the most typical types of Mexican food that you will encounter will include foods accompanied by mole sauce; which is a thick, sweet sauce made of a combination of herbs, spices and CHOCOLATE.

Yes you heard me, CHOCOLATE!!

In the region near Veracruz, you will find that the most common traditional food relies on fish heavily. Veracruz, located near the sea; is the perfect provider of good seafood. Even the tacos and tamales are commonly made from fish in this region. Most typically the fish dishes served here are topped with or are accompanied by chilies, olives and tomatoes.

In the region near Veracruz, you will find that the most common traditional food relies on fish heavily. Veracruz, located near the sea; is the perfect provider of good seafood.

And in Yucatan (another part of Mexico), they're all about the FRUIT. Traditional foods are commonly served with fruit-based sauces. Seville oranges are a particular favorite. Your food is served in a banana leaf, too! This is a favorite way of presenting food and it’s delicious as well as appetizing.

Take it from somebody who's been to Mexico for Vacation.

And dion who thinks that mexican food is only “well, a shell, seasoned beef, cheese, maybe lettuce, tomato…what about nachos? chips, beef, cheese, maybe beans, some vegetables. who about a quesdilla? a shell, cheese, maybe some vegetables” is so wrong beyond belief.

LOL!
I'm on hitatus while I redo one of my webcomics. Be sure to check it out when I'n done! :)
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:10AM
ShadowDion at 10:46PM, Nov. 6, 2007
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Aurora Moon
in other words, I was just saying there's no way anybody can be fully “original” in the sense that they'd create a whole new Genre of style that was their own.
but others hit it on the nail pretty well for me anyway.

They're right, you know. In the end, all cartoony styles are pretty much the same–large eyes, tiny noses, etc.
So I could say that your work looked exactly like Garfield and that you were just copying the artist who got “popular”… but that wouldn't be very fair. Especially after the effort that you put into it to make it “your own”.

Yes, there are the few who would go to the trouble of EXACTLY copying their favorite Japanese Manga artist….

But there are many Manga artists, such as myself, who strive to take a certain style and make it our own with our own unique methods.

So if somebody came up to me and told me: “LOL, your an manga artist… you're just nothing but a copycat!” then my response would be:
'But I haven't directly copied off ANY artist nor any certain animation at all. I'm only merely drawing my comic in a style that I like and are comfortable with. And along the way I make an effort to improve and experiment with it. So exactly, HOW am I an copy cat? That's certainly not being fair. Nor to all the other manga artists who makes a real effort to improve and evolve along the way!'

Yeah. it's basically all about what floats your boat.

i think you have some solid points that i agree very much with. you are right, nothing, nothing is truly original, but its how creative you can get and how much you can convince your viewers that it is original.
we both probably went about creating our own styles the same way, but also entirely differently. you obviously took after other artists, but neither of us ripped anyone off. the large portion of my criticism is to every 12 year old that picks up a ‘How to Draw Manga’ book and tracing characters, and then puts a new costume on them and calls that ‘their work’. obviously i understand that there are many artists out there (like you and me) who have put effort in creating something that both suits us and is our own.

ozone has some good points that sometimes it is how well trained your eye is to realize the differences, but i stand by you don't need a trained eye to realize how different dilbert and zits are.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:32PM
ozoneocean at 10:48PM, Nov. 6, 2007
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Ah well. It doesn't matter in the scheme of things I suppose. I just wish more people realised that there are very different ways of looking at the world and what we see isn't always the same as what everyone else does.

To a Japanese guy who'd never seen Zits or Dilbert before, they probably look the same to him as Shin Chan and Hamtaro might to you. :)
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:28PM
StaceyMontgomery at 4:01AM, Nov. 7, 2007
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This is hilarious. Manga is written and drawn in an amazing number of styles. And it's easily the broadest “style” of comic. How many chef comics or tennis comics or actual historicals or biographicals do you find in US comics?

Seriously, to the Japanese, US comics are just a slew of underwear perverts all drawn to ape Jack Kirby.


I wish that when Americans started to mimic manga they had taken up some of that variety and diversity - and not just a small handfull of stuff and called it “manga.” There's more to manga than magical girls.


BUt then, i live in Boston - how often do I get to eat real mexican food?
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:55PM
ShadowDion at 7:25AM, Nov. 7, 2007
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StaceyMontgomery
This is hilarious. Manga is written and drawn in an amazing number of styles. And it's easily the broadest “style” of comic. How many chef comics or tennis comics or actual historicals or biographicals do you find in US comics?

Seriously, to the Japanese, US comics are just a slew of underwear perverts all drawn to ape Jack Kirby.


I wish that when Americans started to mimic manga they had taken up some of that variety and diversity - and not just a small handfull of stuff and called it “manga.” There's more to manga than magical girls.


BUt then, i live in Boston - how often do I get to eat real mexican food?

hilarious like rosie o'donnell or hilarious like being condesending? either way, i'm guess i missed the humor. i guess what bobhh said was kinda funny. and as far as historical and biographical US comics, i guess you never heard of Maus, which won a Pulitzer.
i'm glad you can speak for the Japanese on how they view western comic books, let me generalize and tell you how America sees Anime: just as perverted. how many Sailor-dressed school girls run around in those kind of skirts? how many get raped by tenacles? obviously i'm looking, but stereotyping isn't getting this debate anywhere.
i do agree that if someone is going to ocpy manga, they should at least expand beyond naruto. but what i don't get is if manga is so wide and varied, how can it all be called manga? i think we have a difference in definition of the word.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:32PM
DAJB at 7:36AM, Nov. 7, 2007
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Is the answer just “yes”?
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:03PM
Aurora Moon at 10:01AM, Nov. 7, 2007
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You know, the difference of styles in Manga does have their own names, you know. The japanese actually have names for different varitations of Manga, but they're not that well known to Americans.


Shojo: Shojo or shoujo is a term used in English to refer to manga and anime aimed at a female audience between the ages of 10 and 18. The term is a transliteration of the Japanese, literally lesser, or little, girl. The genre is stereotyped as melodramatic stories of romance usually with a female protagonist, and drawn in a flowing style where beautiful characters with huge, intricately drawn eyes become spontaneously surrounded by flowers, stars, and/or bubbles.


Shonen: Shonen anime and manga is typically characterized by high-action, often humorous plots featuring male protagonists. The camaraderie between boys or men on sports teams, fighting squads and the like is often emphasized. Attractive female characters with exaggerated features are also common (see fan service), but are not a requirement; Dragon Ball Z, for example, has only a few such characters. The art style of Shonen is generally less flowery than that of Shojo, although this varies greatly from artist to artist, and some artists draw both Shonen and shojo.



Seinen: is a subset of manga that is generally targeted at an 18-30 year old male audience, but the audience can be much older with some comics aimed at businessmen well into their 40s. It has a wide variety of art styles and more variation in subject matter, ranging from the avant-garde to the pornographic. The female equivalent to seinen manga is josei manga. It's simlar to Shonen but for the difference of handling more mature subject matter. The styles are often drawn somewhat more realstically out of all the manga groups and often does not have the gianatic eyes and other exgeratted features like in the other sub-groups.


Josei: is a genre of manga or anime created mostly by women, for late teenage and adult female audiences. The male equivalent to josei is seinen. In Japanese, the word josei means only “female” and is not directly indicative of sexual matter.
The style also tends to be a more restrained, realistic version of shojo, keeping some of the wispy features and getting rid of the very large sparkly eyes. There are exceptions in the style described above, but what defines josei is some degree of stylistic continuity of comics within this particular demographic (the same is true with different demographics that have different stylistic tendencies).
In addition, unlike shojo manga, josei comics can portray realistic romance (as opposed to mostly idealized romance). A famous example of a Josei is honey and clover.



Kodomo: a Japanese term that literally means “animation directed towards children”. It refers to a genre of Japanese comics (manga) and cartoons (anime) that are aimed at a younger audience than “shonen” and “shojo” material. However, for many non-Japanese fans of these media, the name is cut to simply “Kodomo”. Kodomo works are noted for stories that are usually (and covertly) very moralistic and teach children how to behave as good and considerate people.

So you see, there's actually names for all those different types of Manga… I hope this has been helpful.
I'm on hitatus while I redo one of my webcomics. Be sure to check it out when I'n done! :)
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:10AM
Kilre at 11:00AM, Nov. 7, 2007
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ShadowDion
i'm sorry, there simply aren't that many differences.
zits: full of line variation, expressive marks, clearly done with in inks, pressences of shades, bends in fabrics, looser postures, more organic feel to the form, greater detail, great ariticulation of emotion
dilbert: same line thickness throughout, more polished, could have been done digitally, lack of shading, little or no bends in fabric, stiffer postures, more geometric feel, less detail, consistency of characters

all of these may be minor differences but when you put them together you get two drastically different styles. there is nothing wrong with being influenced by a manga or any style, i would even tolerate a great resemblence with some alterations. i would simply like to see more artists honestly forging a style that is distinctly theirs, even if it is as crude as ‘The Far Side’.




I can't tell if you're agreeing with me or disagreeing–due to that first sentence there, did you mean “there simply aren't that many similarities”–but it still seems to me that you're desperately trying to grasp that fleeting ideal that “everyone has their own, completely unique style”, when in reality around half of their “style” is picked up from the things the artists like to see in drawings and comics that they read.

Dilbert and Zits are different–quite different in their linework–I grant you that. However, again, they share many of the same stylistic preferences that, well, plague comics in the Americas. If you can't see them, you're not looking hard enough.

Sure, they can take a plethora of characteristics and make them their own, but there are going to be quite a few stylistic similarities across the board both here in the Americas and across the ocean.

It's not a bad thing to share stylistic characteristics with other comic artists. Appreciate your inspirations and learn from them.

It's just as ol' ozone said:

“I stand by my analogy of comparing it to people who say that all Chinese look alike… And to a person who hasn't seen many Chinese people before, maybe they really do? But that doesn't mean they actually do, it's just from the perspective of the untutored eye. Just the same as many people not used to ”Western“ comics think they're all exactly same. We see massive stylistic differences in stuff, but only because we're used to it.”
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:15PM
ozoneocean at 1:20PM, Nov. 7, 2007
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DAJB
Is the answer just “yes”?
Simple answers tend to stem from ignorance and/or inexperience. Surely neither of those describe you?
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:28PM
ShadowDion at 3:07PM, Nov. 7, 2007
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ozoneocean
DAJB
Is the answer just “yes”?
Simple answers tend to stem from ignorance and/or inexperience. Surely neither of those describe you?

ozone, i deeply respect you, but never have i felt you have been more wrong.
occam's razor, that's all i have to say.



Kilre
I can't tell if you're agreeing with me or disagreeing–due to that first sentence there, did you mean “there simply aren't that many similarities”–but it still seems to me that you're desperately trying to grasp that fleeting ideal that “everyone has their own, completely unique style”, when in reality around half of their “style” is picked up from the things the artists like to see in drawings and comics that they read.

Dilbert and Zits are different–quite different in their linework–I grant you that. However, again, they share many of the same stylistic preferences that, well, plague comics in the Americas. If you can't see them, you're not looking hard enough.

Sure, they can take a plethora of characteristics and make them their own, but there are going to be quite a few stylistic similarities across the board both here in the Americas and across the ocean.

It's not a bad thing to share stylistic characteristics with other comic artists. Appreciate your inspirations and learn from them.

i did indeed mean that i felt there were actually differences.
i don't think it's just line work, but loose, organic flow versus geometry. they have big nose… and i guess their eyes are pretty close together, but beyond that you are going to have to explain to me who they share stylistic preferences.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:32PM

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