Debate and Discussion

Manga, is it like Mexican Food?
ozoneocean at 4:04PM, Nov. 7, 2007
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ShadowDion
ozoneocean
DAJB
Is the answer just “yes”?
Simple answers tend to stem from ignorance and/or inexperience. Surely neither of those describe you?
ozone, i deeply respect you, but never have i felt you have been more wrong.
occam's razor, that's all i have to say.
That applies to the solutions to problems of logic, this isn't a problem of logic and that's not what I was referring to in terms of simple answers. I thought you'd see that from the context? :(
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:28PM
ShadowDion at 5:11PM, Nov. 7, 2007
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ozoneocean
ShadowDion
ozoneocean
DAJB
Is the answer just “yes”?
Simple answers tend to stem from ignorance and/or inexperience. Surely neither of those describe you?
ozone, i deeply respect you, but never have i felt you have been more wrong.
occam's razor, that's all i have to say.
That applies to the solutions to problems of logic, this isn't a problem of logic and that's not what I was referring to in terms of simple answers. I thought you'd see that from the context? :(

i did understand that you were speaking jest to DAJB, and i think my statement came out harser than i intended. but i occam's razor does not only apply to problems of logic but was derived as a reductionist philosophy. not only that but it has been applied to numerous things beyond that as far as scientific and mathematical to business and economical.
i understand what you were saying regarding DAJB's oversimplifaction of the answer, but i do disagree that if you're statement “Simple answers tend to stem from ignorance and/or inexperience.” did apply to all simple answers. in this context, i do in part agree that there is not a simple answer as it is a subjective opinion, and therefore can never have a conclusive and decisive ‘yes’ or ‘no’.
i intended this discussion to hear multiple viewpoints on both sides, but i also felt the need to play devil's advocate. i hope no one has felt attacked, as that was not my intention, but for some to give an honest, objective view at manga and see if they could truthfully say they feel there is a wide variation, but not just that, but also that those that do mimic it, also follow those variations, and not only the traditional mainstream.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:32PM
Ronson at 8:05PM, Nov. 7, 2007
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It's the same with music, innit?

I mean, I can go on about the difference between Bim Skala Bim, The Mighty, Mighty, Bosstones, Streetlight Manifesto and Big D and the Kids table, but if you don't like Ska you're going to tell me they all sound the same…which is insane, btw.

I mean, does this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1Glavt2u6Y



Really sound like this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9VO-w3djsA



Of course not! But if you didn't like either, would you really try to listen for the differences?

I think Manga is popular because the styles are everywhere now. Back when I was a kid, it was the sunday funnies. You'll find that those of my generation tended to develop our styles based on things like Peanuts, Bloom County, Doonesbury or Garfield. Why should I be surprised that a kid who loves Pokemon develops a similar style to Pokemon?
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:10PM
Kilre at 8:24PM, Nov. 7, 2007
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ShadowDion
i did indeed mean that i felt there were actually differences.
i don't think it's just line work, but loose, organic flow versus geometry. they have big nose… and i guess their eyes are pretty close together, but beyond that you are going to have to explain to me who they share stylistic preferences.

I'm pretty sure you meant “similarities” when you typed “i'm sorry, there simply aren't that many differences”, but whatever floats your boat.

Now, about those similarities:

















Note: Oversimplified limbs (arms and legs, and save for the bend in the elbow when needed, are usually kept straight), large and close-together eyes over a bulbous nose, necks are sometimes either hinted at or non-existant, I've yet to see anything resembling a pupil and iris separate (it's usually a combination of the two), hands are exaggerated and more often than not the hands will have only four fingers instead of five, cheeks in 3/4 or profile will bulge out quite a bit, and heads will often have odd shaped that are either easy to draw or are, more likely, characteristic of that character's lifestyle.

These are the basics of comics here in the US, at least those that frequent newspapers. You're guilty of a few of these yourself: I can see the similarity between your stylistic preference and these examples above.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:15PM
ozoneocean at 9:04PM, Nov. 7, 2007
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Ronson
It's the same with music, innit?

I mean, I can go on about the difference between Bim Skala Bim, The Mighty, Mighty, Bosstones, Streetlight Manifesto and Big D and the Kids table, but if you don't like Ska you're going to tell me they all sound the same…which is insane, btw.
None of those dudes sound like Prince Buster or Derrick Morgan, so you're right there, Ska is very different. ^_^

In the end these charges of homogeneity stem from a lack of familiarity with the subject… I think most of us agree on that. But this seems more problematic; when the claim is made by a person comparing it to the alleged “superior” heterogeneity of another subject, which they are perhaps simply just too close too not to see the very same homogeneous traits:

The pot calling the kettle black.
…so to speak :)
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:28PM
ShadowDion at 9:36PM, Nov. 7, 2007
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Kilre
Note: Oversimplified limbs (arms and legs, and save for the bend in the elbow when needed, are usually kept straight), large and close-together eyes over a bulbous nose, necks are sometimes either hinted at or non-existant, I've yet to see anything resembling a pupil and iris separate (it's usually a combination of the two), hands are exaggerated and more often than not the hands will have only four fingers instead of five, cheeks in 3/4 or profile will bulge out quite a bit, and heads will often have odd shaped that are either easy to draw or are, more likely, characteristic of that character's lifestyle.

These are the basics of comics here in the US, at least those that frequent newspapers. You're guilty of a few of these yourself: I can see the similarity between your stylistic preference and these examples above.

first of all, i don't think ‘guilty’ is the word you're looking for because i have done nothing wrong. i have my own style that i have worked to make my own and of course i am going to share similarities with the very artist's that inspired me.
i still disagree, and within your own examples, many did not even follow most of your stated similarities. i could do the exact same thing to manga, make board generalizations to which someone could go and find examples that don't follow that mold, and when it comes right down to it, nothing i say is going to honestly change how they view manga. if they like it, they will continue to like it.
but i don't think it is a lack of familarity to the subject that does not allow me to see the slight variations, if anything, my disagreement comes from the very fact that i am all too familar with it. i don't know too many that are active in the webcomic community and do not constantl see manga as the choosen style. so for you to say, ‘you just haven’t seen enough' is almost laughable. quite the contary, i have seen more than enough. to use ronson's example, if all you heard was ska music on the radio, i think you would probably be too sick to look for slight differences.
so it goes.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:32PM
ozoneocean at 9:51PM, Nov. 7, 2007
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ShadowDion
manga as the choosen style
As opposed to whatever particular Western style you may choose… ;)

There's homogeneity in everything, and the further you are away from something, the more similar it all looks. Face it, you're not as “close” to “manga”, which is why it all seems much the same. While you are very “close” to your Western style, which is why it doesn't. :)
-“close” in terms of culturally, as well as interest, and general immersion-
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:28PM
mlai at 10:17PM, Nov. 7, 2007
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I thought that particular point was interesting and thought it would make a good debate topic. A great deal of people here work in the manga style, but how original is it? Where is the line between being influenced by something and all out copying it?
Let's get back to topic. This isn't about how ignorant/familiar Dion is with styles.

1. The generic anime style stems from Disney, so it's not exactly original. You don't mean manga, btw. Because manga has just as many variant styles as all American comics. I know you mean anime, specifically filtered-for-American-appetite anime. And just like Mexican and Chinese food, when it's filtered for a foreign audience, it will be homogenous.

2. The line is there, and it's just as prevalent in anime style as in Big 3 comics style. For every kid copying anime, there's a kid copying Marvel. What of it?

FIGHT current chapter: Filling In The Gaps
FIGHT_2 current chapter: Light Years of Gold
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:06PM
Kilre at 10:23PM, Nov. 7, 2007
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Kilre
Note: Oversimplified limbs (arms and legs, and save for the bend in the elbow when needed, are usually kept straight), large and close-together eyes over a bulbous nose, necks are sometimes either hinted at or non-existant, I've yet to see anything resembling a pupil and iris separate (it's usually a combination of the two), hands are exaggerated and more often than not the hands will have only four fingers instead of five, cheeks in 3/4 or profile will bulge out quite a bit, and heads will often have odd shaped that are either easy to draw or are, more likely, characteristic of that character's lifestyle.

Quoting myself again so you can read those again.

ShadowDion
first of all, i don't think ‘guilty’ is the word you're looking for because i have done nothing wrong. i have my own style that i have worked to make my own and of course i am going to share similarities with the very artist's that inspired me.

Oh, I think I typed exactly what I meant to, especially considering your responses concerning your style so far in this thread.

ShadowDion
i still disagree, and within your own examples, many did not even follow most of your stated similarities. i could do the exact same thing to manga, make board generalizations to which someone could go and find examples that don't follow that mold, and when it comes right down to it, nothing i say is going to honestly change how they view manga. if they like it, they will continue to like it.

They don't follow…? You're a comic artist, and you can't see the similarities. I'm quite honestly surprised. All the examples I chose, true, do not share each and every single characteristic I wrote down, but I said “they were common”, meaning they're widespread. Seriously, take a look again at the comics you are “all too familiar with”.

ShadowDion
but i don't think it is a lack of familarity to the subject that does not allow me to see the slight variations, if anything, my disagreement comes from the very fact that i am all too familar with it. i don't know too many that are active in the webcomic community and do not constantl see manga as the choosen style. so for you to say, ‘you just haven’t seen enough' is almost laughable. quite the contary, i have seen more than enough. to use ronson's example, if all you heard was ska music on the radio, i think you would probably be too sick to look for slight differences.
so it goes.

I see your hastily misused quote (he said “I mean, I can go on about the difference between Bim Skala Bim, The Mighty, Mighty, Bosstones, Streetlight Manifesto and Big D and the Kids table, but if you don't like Ska you're going to tell me they all sound the same…which is insane, btw”, which is different from “if all you heard was ska music on the radio, i think you would probably be too sick to look for slight differences” by quite a long shot) and raise you another two:

“In the end these charges of homogeneity stem from a lack of familiarity with the subject… I think most of us agree on that. But this seems more problematic; when the claim is made by a person comparing it to the alleged ”superior" heterogeneity of another subject, which they are perhaps simply just too close too not to see the very same homogeneous traits

”There's homogeneity in everything, and the further you are away from something, the more similar it all looks. Face it, you're not as “close” to “manga”, which is why it all seems much the same. While you are very “close” to your Western style, which is why it doesn't.
-“close” in terms of culturally, as well as interest, and general immersion-"

And with these two quotes, my post, surprisingly enough, gets a tiny bit more on topic. I can't go on further, for ozoneocean has done a wonderful job of explaining the situation.

Darn you, ozone.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:15PM
SamWebster at 11:58PM, Nov. 7, 2007
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I'm going to jump into this. I've been an avid manga fan for about ten years (before it got popular in the UK)

Now, though there are many different styles, they do all share certain attributes. After all, how else would you classify it as manga? “Oh, it came from Japan, so it's manga!”, “Right, so DramaCon and Psy-Comm aren't?”, “Well, why wouldn't they be?”, “Oh, I dunno, American artists, produced in America … You just said it hasto come from Japan”

The thing is, if it weren't for the fact that they're in black and white and read from right to left, it would become difficult to tell alot of series from, say, Marvel. What's so different about comics such as Spider-Man?

You need to decide where you can draw the line between manga and cartoons. Which, is very difficult to do as the Americans occupied Japan at the end of the Second World War and introduced them to their comics and cartoons.

If you look at Betty Boop, you can quickly say it's not manga, but she does have several manga attributes - as do many characters if you look for it.

All because it's very hard to say what is manga and what isn't. There's a lot of variation in manga styles, Death Note and Dragon Ball are nothing alike, and there is a very blurred and undistinct line between what we call manga and what we don't.

To further prove this point, a manga artist in Japan was asked in an interview “What is your favourite anime?”, he replied “Tom & Jerry”. Now I highly doubt any of youwould class Tom & Jerry as an anime, but there it is, a manga artist, calmly calling it an anime.

If you want to call manga bland, boring and overused, you have to say the same for every single comic and cartoon out there. All Marvel artists are told to draw in the exact same style, all animators have to draw a series' characters the exact same way, Tom & Jerry are the same as Sylvester & Tweety, Family Guy and Futurama, heck, even newspaper funnies, all share the same fundamental values and all share the same attributes.

So, unless you only like Fine Art and photography, you can't really dislike manga, in my opinion.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:21PM
DAJB at 12:15AM, Nov. 8, 2007
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ozoneocean
ShadowDion
ozoneocean
DAJB
Is the answer just “yes”?
Simple answers tend to stem from ignorance and/or inexperience. Surely neither of those describe you?
ozone, i deeply respect you, but never have i felt you have been more wrong.
occam's razor, that's all i have to say.
That applies to the solutions to problems of logic, this isn't a problem of logic and that's not what I was referring to in terms of simple answers. I thought you'd see that from the context? :(
Wow. If I'd known my simple, tongue-in-cheek little response was going to get people so worked up, I'd have said something more profound. Something like …

Is the answer just “no”?
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:03PM
ShadowDion at 12:32AM, Nov. 8, 2007
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first of all let's clarify things:
1. i think i need to define what i few as manga, which is probably closest to what mlai said, anime that is imported to the states. the reason i did not say anime is because anime is animation, not comic work, so for the sake of simplicity (and probably foolishness) i called it manga. i do know that manga is usually b/w and read from right to left, etc. etc. i have read some and i have watched anime, nor do i disdain it or believe that any who use it are satan's minions.
i am specefically talking about the generic stuff plastered all over deviantart. i won't deny that i am sure there are a wide variety of variations, if kilre admits that it is true of western styles (otherwise you are just as ‘guilty’ as i am of ignorance). so speaking of the generic anime style that i see drawn all too often by american teens, let us get back to the original question; can they go about saying that style is original?
2. kilre, you make me giggle. i'm not exactly sure what you are trying to prove, that western is just as generic as you think i am claiming manga to be, or that you are honestly ignorant of the differneces?
i think we can all admit that all comics (whatever style, western comic book, western cartoon, manga) that they all follow general trends even if the must basic requirement of it being consider ‘graphic’ is the very fact that it is rendered using a line to define the form. so sure, they all have that similarities, and ozone is right, you can clump them all together if you get far enough away.
3. ozone had a very good point
ozoneocean
As opposed to whatever particular Western style you may choose…

There's homogeneity in everything, and the further you are away from something, the more similar it all looks. Face it, you're not as “close” to “manga”, which is why it all seems much the same. While you are very “close” to your Western style, which is why it doesn't.
-“close” in terms of culturally, as well as interest, and general immersion-
it was the use of the word ‘close’ that i found disagreeable. i do agree that i am not ‘close’ in the sense of interest to it, and therefore do not see some of the differences, but also that the definition of manga (or anime) i was referring to was different than that of most.
4. i was not never to misquot Ronson, but rather use the example he had provided with music, Ska, and extend the metaphor. that is to say that if Ska was extremely popular, to the point that this was nearly all the played on the radio (and for simplicities sake, let's say you only listen to one station) those who are not big fans of Ska would probably go into outright dislike of it, simply from the oversaturation and domination of the radio. this would lead to those people having no interest in ska and therefore unable to hear the variations between them. (again, i acknowledge ozone is correct, it was the use of ‘close’ that i misinterepted)
5. i am in no way ignorant of styles beyond my own, nor do i appreciate it being stated as such. i am allowed a preference and i am fully aware of art that is beyond my own. for me to have the opinion that manga (let's remember the definition i stated in point 1, i.e.: generic anime) that it is unoriginal and i don't care for it, should not be scrutinized.
if someone were to say ‘i don’t care surrealism, it all kinda looks the same to me', i don't think someone's response would be ‘well i just don’t think you've seen enough', or ‘well you are just ignorant’, and if that would be the response, that is a real shame.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:32PM
ozoneocean at 1:00AM, Nov. 8, 2007
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The responses aren't an attack on you, they're an examination of the idea you've presented: that manga is like Mexican food; in that it's apparently small variations on a very set of limited ingredients. And part of that process has been to wonder why you'd make that comparison to start with.

The use of the word “ignorance” here isn't pejorative, it's being used in its true sense: lacking some knowledge on a subject. That doesn't mean you're bad for not having that knowledge, it's just a way of saying you don't have it… Like I would custom build a new work station for myself if I could, but my ignorance of the intricacies of the way computers work hampers me… WTF is a front side bus anyway?

It's been a good discussion… The only problem is that Shadowdion has been put on the defensive, It's hard when most people in a discussion disagree with you… I'm sorry you're in that position Shadowdion. :(
 
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:28PM
mlai at 5:48AM, Nov. 8, 2007
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i am specefically talking about the generic stuff plastered all over deviantart. i won't deny that i am sure there are a wide variety of variations, if kilre admits that it is true of western styles (otherwise you are just as ‘guilty’ as i am of ignorance). so speaking of the generic anime style that i see drawn all too often by american teens, let us get back to the original question; can they go about saying that style is original?
Here's what I think is the cause of that apparent phenomenon:

-> There are more unskilled amateur artists than skilled artists.
-> Badly-drawn anime is easier to accomplish than badly-drawn Marvel.
-> Anime is popular, badly-drawn or not.
-> So, more amateur artists draw in anime. And when you are unskilled, you're not going to be innovatin'. Good artists can transform flaws into style. Bad artists just have flaws.

Like someone said, it has set conventions like Marvel. Anime is influenced by American tastes. Anime production is getting more expensive, to the point that the studios must look to overseas as part of its profit projections. If the anime only runs on Jpn TV and doesn't get picked up by American publishers, it won't make profits to cover the costs of animation. Publishers look for safe bets. So like anything that has high production values, its style will lean more towards summer blockbuster than indie. All summer blockbusters look the same, the same way all expensive anime look the same.

FIGHT current chapter: Filling In The Gaps
FIGHT_2 current chapter: Light Years of Gold
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:06PM
TheMidge28 at 7:20AM, Nov. 8, 2007
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Aurora Moon
You know, the difference of styles in Manga does have their own names, you know. The japanese actually have names for different varitations of Manga, but they're not that well known to Americans.


Aurora, thank you for posting those.
I am unfamilier to the varied types of manga.
There are more subgroups than what you listed, right?
I wish there was seperate listings in the search engine to account for those subgroups, because I could do without Shojo personally.


As to the topic, one artist who is more original than the rest normally stands out and then the rest seemed to become inspired by the their work and want to mimic, recreate, pay homage, etc to that work.

Most of this critique of Manga comes from westerners who didn't grow up reading Manga or watching Anime and wouldn't be familiar with the artists as a easterner would.

When you read comics, regardless if it western or eastern, people tend to make comparisons.
You hear stuff like, “Your work reminds me of this or that artist.”

This debate however is quite old and has been around for some time.
But honestly what is the goal of a debate over style?



last edited on July 14, 2011 4:22PM
ShadowDion at 9:08AM, Nov. 8, 2007
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TheMidge28
As to the topic, one artist who is more original than the rest normally stands out and then the rest seemed to become inspired by the their work and want to mimic, recreate, pay homage, etc to that work.


i agree that talented or drastically stylized artists definitely influence other artist (Peanuts inspired Calvin and Hobbes, Calvin and Hobbes probably inspired a few of us). however the opinion i am often interested is, where is the line between being inspired and influenced, and all out plagarism?
i suppose this debate would have been much less personal to some as they may have felt that their style (or the style they enjoy) was being attacked.

TheMidge28
When you read comics, regardless if it western or eastern, people tend to make comparisons.
You hear stuff like, “Your work reminds me of this or that artist.”

This debate however is quite old and has been around for some time.
But honestly what is the goal of a debate over style?


this is very true, as creatures that learn and adapt, we must use information we already have and relate it to information that is foreign so we can remember it. however the debate i was intending was not ‘manga is stupid, western is better’ but (as mlai address very well) how original is the generic anime style that is done very often by amature artists?

mlai
Here's what I think is the cause of that apparent phenomenon:

-> There are more unskilled amateur artists than skilled artists.
-> Badly-drawn anime is easier to accomplish than badly-drawn Marvel.
-> Anime is popular, badly-drawn or not.
-> So, more amateur artists draw in anime. And when you are unskilled, you're not going to be innovatin'. Good artists can transform flaws into style. Bad artists just have flaws.

i will say that personally i am more dismissive of western comic book artists that do not have a very noticable style. i also won't deny that the debate of marvel's stuff all looking the same could easily be presented, but as mlai said: “Badly-drawn anime is easier to accomplish than badly drawn Marvel.”
as generic as Marvel's styles often look (which i will admit even as an avid-lover of western comic books), that is style quite a feet to accomplish. the anatomy and shading as well as perspective and environments are not something that can easily be duplicated. regardless of some of it's genericness (i won't even begin the debate of ‘i can see the variations, why can’t you?' again) there is a lot of talent that i find respectable even with that genericness.
i also have reason to believe that in some way the industry greatly encourages this as mlai as touched on, American publishers relying on a sure thing. if you get someone with a wild style that doesn't create the ripped muscles of Superman, reader's might be less likely to buy that. so they specefically pick artists that do follow that ‘Marvel-style’.
but young artists and cartoonists (traditional or web-related) do not have those pressures, and do have that freedom, so to see an amateur artist copy and paste anime on their paper and call it their comic is where i find myself drawing the line between influenced and plagarism.
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:32PM
Kilre at 9:26AM, Nov. 8, 2007
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ShadowDion
i am specefically talking about the generic stuff plastered all over deviantart. i won't deny that i am sure there are a wide variety of variations, if kilre admits that it is true of western styles (otherwise you are just as ‘guilty’ as i am of ignorance). so speaking of the generic anime style that i see drawn all too often by american teens, let us get back to the original question; can they go about saying that style is original?

Wide variation based on several shared/common/overused characteristics was the point I tried to get at, but apparently you saw the opposite.

ShadowDion
2. kilre, you make me giggle. i'm not exactly sure what you are trying to prove, that western is just as generic as you think i am claiming manga to be, or that you are honestly ignorant of the differneces?
i think we can all admit that all comics (whatever style, western comic book, western cartoon, manga) that they all follow general trends even if the must basic requirement of it being consider ‘graphic’ is the very fact that it is rendered using a line to define the form. so sure, they all have that similarities, and ozone is right, you can clump them all together if you get far enough away.

it was the use of the word ‘close’ that i found disagreeable. i do agree that i am not ‘close’ in the sense of interest to it, and therefore do not see some of the differences, but also that the definition of manga (or anime) i was referring to was different than that of most.

ozoneocean hit the nail on the head, as far as I'm concerned. Several times, in fact.

The original idea, that manga is like cheap American Mexican food, can swing both ways: newspaper comics are like cheap Mexican food. I won't touch Marvel and other “serious” comics because they're, I suppose, my “manga” in that I know very little about them. However, the point that ozoneocean made remains:

ozoneocean
There's homogeneity in everything, and the further you are away from something, the more similar it all looks. Face it, you're not as “close” to “manga”, which is why it all seems much the same. While you are very “close” to your Western style, which is why it doesn't.

I find this exceedingly true for all values. When I first started reading manga/watching anime, it did all look the same. However, with time it was easier to notice the differences. It is because they exist together, using shared characteristics–not unlike our own comics and TV shows–that they seem so excessively similar.

That's what I was driving at this whole time @_@
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:15PM
Aurora Moon at 10:22AM, Nov. 8, 2007
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Aurora Moon
You know, the difference of styles in Manga does have their own names, you know. The japanese actually have names for different varitations of Manga, but they're not that well known to Americans.


Aurora, thank you for posting those.
I am unfamilier to the varied types of manga.
There are more subgroups than what you listed, right?
I wish there was seperate listings in the search engine to account for those subgroups, because I could do without Shojo personally.

I'm not sure, but yeah, there could be more sub-groubs. As seeing I've certainly seen plenty of japanese manga that seemed like a mix of different sub-groubs… such as “Toyko Mew-Mew” seeming to be a mix of Shojo and Komodo. but I just listed the sub-groups that seemed to be more common in the mainstream of Japan, so I'm sure there's a whole lot more out there that could be “unknown” to us at the moment.

And yes, I do WISH that DD would put those sub-groups under manga. After all, I'd like to think that one of my comics are more of a Joisei than a shojo manga. In fact, I find it a little bit unfair that all the comics here are stuck with only one type of label and that's it.
I'm on hitatus while I redo one of my webcomics. Be sure to check it out when I'n done! :)
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:10AM
ShadowDion at 1:43PM, Nov. 8, 2007
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Kilre
Wide variation based on several shared/common/overused characteristics was the point I tried to get at, but apparently you saw the opposite.


first of all you have a oxymoron in your sentence. the term ‘wide variation’ explicitly denies common, shared, normal typical and overused. but if you would like to continue asserting that western all looks the same, then i will say again:
“i won't deny that i am sure there are a wide variety of variations, if kilre admits that it is true of western styles (otherwise you are just as ‘guilty’ as i am of ignorance).”

Kilre
ozoneocean hit the nail on the head, as far as I'm concerned. Several times, in fact.

thank you, everyone has already established that ozone had very valid points, and again, quoting what i have already stated: “3. ozone had a very good point
it was the use of the word ‘close’ that i found disagreeable. i do agree that i am not ‘close’ in the sense of interest to it, and therefore do not see some of the differences, but also that the definition of manga (or anime) i was referring to was different than that of most.”

Kilre
The original idea, that manga is like cheap American Mexican food, can swing both ways: newspaper comics are like cheap Mexican food. I won't touch Marvel and other “serious” comics because they're, I suppose, my “manga” in that I know very little about them.

you are free to think that western comics all look the same, or share similarities, whatever. i do hope you know that as ignorant i may have looked over saying manga all looked the same (which again, we have established that i was speaking of generic anime filtered to the US), you look just as foolish saying that all newspaper comics are the same.

i will fully admit that i am sure there are a wide variety of styles and differences to true manga. i will also admit that i could understand how could state that all western comic book art looks the same. (i'm not even going to bother posting what i have said on this again because you don't quite seem to actual read what i write) so if you are done restating everything you have already said and would like to add something to the debate, join in. :)
last edited on July 14, 2011 3:32PM
Kilre at 4:17PM, Nov. 8, 2007
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Ninja edit:

I'm saying the same things as ozoneocean and yet you agree with him and disagree with everything I say.

I'll say no more.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:15PM
Poke Alster at 10:27AM, Nov. 9, 2007
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I think manga is never considered copy, just revised
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:46PM
Broken Minds at 11:03AM, Nov. 9, 2007
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It looks like alot of this has been debated on in circles by the same people so I suppose I'll inject my view for objectivity sake since it seems some people could be taking this a little too seriously or personally for that matter.

To me reading the question I get the idea that it's asking if all manga is generic and the same.

My answer? No.

My reasons? There are a variety of styles, formats and subject matter that Manga, and even Anime can be pulled from.

Alot of what america has seen run the mill of typical saturday morning cartoon material. Things that children can watch and find appealing. Stuff like Pokemon and DBZ to name a few more common names.

On that same note, I'd like to also bring up some rather trailblazing series like Neon Genesis Evangellion, Rhazephon, Sword of the Berserk are just a few that come to my mind in terms of being unique and differant. From their animation/illustrative presentation, down to the story and subject matter in which they are involved.

Things like a plot, so deep or complex that it often takes watching the entire series to see it through to the end. Or a visual presentation that is so engaging and attractive that it constantly holds your eyes.

There are so many choices when it comes to Manga/Anime that the consumer really can pick from just about anything to sate their appetite.

A religious set shooter with comedy? A mech cartoon with political and moral undertones? Or what about a good ole fashioned kung fu story set in high school setting with a bit of historical lesson in it? Maybe something a little more supernatural or fantasy comes to mind?

I beleive this is where the arguement that Manga is all the same really starts to lose it's meaning. The artwork can still be drawn in the “manga” *and that term is used loosely nowadays since the style has evolved so greatly* form, but diverge in such a way that it can't be held in the same vein. You can't put Pokemon next to Rhaxephon anymore than you can Professor X next to Joker.

I hope this sheds a differant view on things. If not, well I tired =/
last edited on July 14, 2011 11:35AM
Poke Alster at 11:09AM, Nov. 9, 2007
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Yep you've explained it well, i understand you :) and i also agree with you
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:46PM
patrickdevine at 12:55PM, Nov. 9, 2007
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mlai
He's dissing Mexican food?! Why, because he's eaten at Taco Bell he thinks he can judge Mexican food?!

Mexican food in the USA is just like Chinese takeout - they all taste the same and damn Yankees end up thinking "So this is what they eat; and they always brag about their sophisticated and diverse cuisine?" Newsflash, authentic food tastes nothing like your takeout/drivethru, and has variations you've never dreamt of.

I'm hungry now.

Well there's really good Mexican food (the kind you can get from a food cart,) and then there's really horrid Mexican food (the kind you can get from Tacohell.) Similarly there's really good and really horrid Manga. All the same, it's not the analogy I would have picked. A burrito and an horchata would be really good about now…
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:41PM
Kohdok at 4:26PM, Nov. 9, 2007
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Wow… whoever compared Manga to Mexican food has never heard of Ceviche, which is about as far from tacos as you can get.

kyupol
Manga has oversaturated the internet because of its brainwashing ability. I've tried my best to analyze that style but to no avail. I still cannot answer why Manga has such a POWERFUL brainwashing capability. Why? Just why is everybody (or most people) attracted to it? Hmmm… Is it because the shape of the faces? Is it because of the seemingly shiny eyes and hair? Is it the big boobs? Maybe so maybe not.

I actually think I have a bit of an answer. I think the reason it it so fascinating is because it is both realistic, but at the same time not realistic. A lot of emphasis is put into making body parts look like the right size and shape, but they can be distorted with little difficulty. It's one of the reasons I decided to use the style. There were a lot of ultra-realistic cartoons around the 80's and 90's, and a lot of surrealistic styles before that, though they are also on the rise again. Manga is a way of combining those two in a malleable way that suspends disbelief but is still very cartoony.

At least that's how I've analyzed it.
last edited on July 14, 2011 1:20PM
PIT_FACE at 9:12AM, Nov. 11, 2007
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well i think when it comes to originality, i do think it's lost a lot. now no, i'm not gonna be dumb enough to say it's all a like completely, and i do think that even if it DID manage to have started out from something spewed from mickey mouse, it was able to keep it's own ground instead of just making another mickey. and yes, there IS a differnce betweeen plagerism and insperation.

for example, now, first of all, there's more then art to take into account. to make a character instead of just a drawing, you have to envision some kinda background, wether it's done subconscously or not. they have to have somekind of style or life or it is just a drawing of some dumb ass.

so, lets say that the guys who made astro boy came up with it after seeing a mickey mouse cartoon, the difference wether it was plagarism or not,to me, would be that if it was plagarised, when they'd put together plots, they'd think more on “what would mickey do in this situation”, instead of astro boy.

but if it was just pure inspiration, they would still consider astro-boy his own identity. when they were putting together a plot, they would say “what would astro-boy do in this situation” instead of mickey.

realy i think that's all there is too it.

i beleive that there was a lot of originality in anime before, and a lot of talent, i used to be a huge fan of it. but i think it's lost a lot of that now. unfortunatly the main stream market found something that worked, and strangled the hell outa it until it became this over-dramatic, suedo goth bullshit. the main person is almost always depressed and overloaded with teary eyed profile shots and sappy flashbacks that dont mean a whole lot after the 15 millionth time you've seen em, or this wanna be bad boy, who seems like he was created by someone that doesnt realy understand how to make a character like that. alls he does is scream shitty one liners and fight dumbed down street punks that're enen more poorly thought through then he/she was.

as for art, i'm not happy with that either. it's become to clean and steralized, a lot of anime i see out there, i cant tell apart. like i said, there are some original people still, but it realy doesnt break the mold anymore.

last edited on July 14, 2011 2:44PM
Poke Alster at 9:34AM, Nov. 11, 2007
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i know what you mean but alot of the mould has already being broken so they dont really have much new stuff to be seen do they?
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:46PM
PIT_FACE at 10:51AM, Nov. 11, 2007
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isnt that basicaly what i said?
last edited on July 14, 2011 2:44PM
TitanOne at 1:22AM, Nov. 12, 2007
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ShadowDion
i think you missed to basic metaphor what he was trying to get at. putting your american bashing aside, what is the basic ingredients to a taco? i don't care if it's taco bell or hand-made by a mexican chief? well, a shell, seasoned beef, cheese, maybe lettuce, tomato…what about nachos? chips, beef, cheese, maybe beans, some vegetables. who about a quesdilla? a shell, cheese, maybe some vegetables. when it comes down to it, mexican food has some pretty standard ingredients for something to be consider a taco, nachos, ect.
now what about manga? well it is pretty angular figures, big eyes, small mouths, etc. no one will deny there are variations, but it clearly isn't that deviated if the artist themselves is classifying it as manga. to classify yourself in that category is, in a sense, admitting that you follow that visual style in some way.

I think it's actually a very clever metaphor, very apropos.

I live in Texas–I've eaten Tex-Mex Food my entire life. It is very repetitive in formula–the rice is always the same on every plate, and pretty bland, as rice goes. The soft corn tortillas are the same wherever you go; the chili con carne sauce always tastes the same. The refried beans are almost always the same on every plate. It's very formulaic. (This is not a complaint against Mexican culture, by the way, because what we are describing is an American food product–just as what we call ‘pizza’ is not Italian, but an American food product.)

There's nothing wrong with American-style Mexican Food–it's often very enjoyable and it's very popular, but it's also very redundant.

You'll still find subtleties but they are mostly in the little things–the type of salsa they make (if they don't buy it from a bottle), how the fried tortilla chips taste when they're hot, how fresh their pico de gallo tends to be; how the flour tortillas measure up.

With manga art, the subtleties, to me, are similarly in small things: The colorization techniques, how they do sound f/x lettering..that sort of thing.

last edited on July 14, 2011 4:30PM
Djeinus at 9:57AM, Nov. 20, 2007
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It´s more like Mcdonald's…

It's everywhere.
last edited on July 14, 2011 12:12PM

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